The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Aldo vs Skizzo

[Arruda]

Is this the first match of the tournament? Because Lahm at LB should equal a nice curler goal in the opening match

I really like Skizzo's front triangle, didn't knew Netzer before this draft but he looks a great find and I think Suker can compliment Van Basten better than what some are giving him credit for. The clip against Denmark alone shows how on "Euro form" he could provide an array of options in attack. I know it's just a game, but on a tournament with so many restrictions as this one it's as good a sample as you're going to find.

Still didn't made up my vote though, will have to read some more posts more carefully as there are a lot of players there that I don't really know about and Aldo's team is very interesting as well. Nedved is great.

 

[Balu]

Maybe the tempo was slower so more emphasis was on technique but guys like Netzer and Albert shit on any number 10 in the game today bar Messi. Both are unique in that they're very explosive 10s big lads both of them ..can't kick em out of a game and both very direct too.

It's like mixing a young Rooneys ability to power past people with the elegance of Zidane.. very dangerous complete footballers.

Yeah, I agree. I think you could include van Hanegem in that group as well. That immense physical presence along with being so techinically gifted is fascinating to watch. The 60's and 70's really were the golden age of football in my opinion. You had that huge group of GOATs (Beckenbauer, Best, Cruyff, Eusebio were born within 5 years and they all have a huge legacy - if you make it 7 years, you can include Pele as well) overshadowing so many other unique and wonderful players, often in their own teams.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Ramos is getting quite a rough ride here, but its worth pointing out that he conceded only 3 goals in 11 games across two tournaments. Obviously he was part of an exceptionally good unit, but he's been an impressive performer at the Euros.

 

[Raees]

Yeah, I agree. I think you could include van Hanegem in that group as well. That immense physical presence along with being so techinically gifted is fascinating to watch. The 60's and 70's really were the golden age of football in my opinion. You had that huge group of GOATs (Beckenbauer, Best, Cruyff, Eusebio were born within 5 years and they all have a huge legacy - if you make it 7 years, you can include Pele as well) overshadowing so many other unique and wonderful players, often in their own teams.

Agreed. I would have it as 60-70's followed by mid-late 80's and late 90's-early 00's.

For me a great era is that in which you have all time greats across a variety of positions and the era doesn't favour certain positions over others. The current era is too one sided in favour of attacking players and thus it does diminish the value of these attackers somewhat as they're doing it against lesser players.

 

[Moby]

Nice.

 

[Moby]

Nedved is great.

Always great to see appreciation for him. Wonderful footballer. I've had him I think at least 4 times in drafts now, probably more. He rarely if ever gets due recognition for his talent, given how insanely unique he was in what he brought to the pitch. Probably due to the fact that he came from a lesser nation and then he missed that CL final where he would surely have driven Juve home to the title. He's a bit easily forgotten amongst others but at his peak he was a force to reckon.

I hope he does get his due recognition here though. He was nothing but fantastic in both 1996 and 2004. In fact Euros go a long way in making his career legendary, so he really is as good a player as anyone here on the pitch, based on both ability and performances.

 

[Raees]

Always great to see appreciation for him. Wonderful footballer. I've had him I think at least 4 times in drafts now, probably more. He rarely if ever gets due recognition for his talent, given how insanely unique he was in what he brought to the pitch. Probably due to the fact that he came from a lesser nation and then he missed that CL final where he would surely have driven Juve home to the title. He's a bit easily forgotten amongst others but at his peak he was a force to reckon.

I hope he does get his due recognition here though. He was nothing but fantastic in both 1996 and 2004. In fact Euros go a long way in making his career legendary, so he really is as good a player as anyone here on the pitch, based on both ability and performances.

I might be in the minority here but as a footballer I prefer him to Iniesta.. I think he had more to his game. Incredibly influential footballer who was not only technically complete but one of the most mentally sound and physically robust attacking midfielders of the modern game.

It is hard to find match compilations of him Euro wise but some of his world cup performances when he was past his peak were simply out of this world.

Remember him v the Dutch in Euro 2004 where he was god-like. Such an exciting footballer.

 

[Moby]

I might be in the minority here but as a footballer I prefer him to Iniesta.. I think he had more to his game. Incredibly influential footballer who was not only technically complete but one of the most mentally sound and physically robust attacking midfielders of the modern game.

It is hard to find match compilations of him Euro wise but some of his world cup performances when he was past his peak were simply out of this world.

Remember him v the Dutch in Euro 2004 where he was god-like. Such an exciting footballer.

I'm with you man. I mean I'm a huge fan of Iniesta as well and he did a lot to make Spain and Barca as good as they were/are, but Nedved was a rare rare talent. If I had to think of a similar name, the first one would be Ruud Gullit, and that's the highest praise one can get. I believe Nedved gave an interview where he said he never figured out which his stronger foot was, which sounded incredible to me. I always knew him as a two footed player but he actually doesn't have a "weaker" foot.

And of course what distinguishes him as what you perfectly put in the first sentence. And that is why I prioritized him for this setup, it was not just the technical aspects that made him good, but his tremendous work ethic, you know he will give his last ounce for the team. That discipline and team-work was vital for this system to work and that's why I snapped him right after picking Xavi and Iniesta. Any manager would absolutely love to have him in his team.

 

[Physiocrat]

It's not a "narrow" diamond, unless you just mean that all diamonds are somewhat narrow by nature. His front 6 contains one natural winger in Nedved, the best all do their best work centrally. Monti is a better defensively than anyone on the opposite side. Cocu or Xavi trying to stop Netzer? Based on Euro form, Van Basten and Suker would pop away most of the chances too, especially with Netzer running the show behind.

To touch back on my original point from earlier, both teams have an ability to break down the opposition, but I feel we are better set up defensively to counter against his goal scoring threats. Suker and Van Basten were both prolific, Netzer contributed a fair few. For him, Baros won golden boot, Albert averaged less than 1 in 2 for Hungary, Nedved averaged 1 in 4.5 for Czech Republic and I think scored just 1 goal across 3 Euro final tournaments.

Skizz,

As diamonds go yours is very well balanced. My point about narrowness was that Aldo's wide players could to some extent restrict your full-backs coming forward which could be a problem. It is really tight but I think Aldo edges it.

 

[Moby]

I won't vote, I simply can't decide. I'd argue that Germany '72 and Spain in '08 were the two most exciting teams the Euros have seen. And here we have the key players with a wonderful supporting cast facing each other in the first round, I hate the draw. I really suck, what an awful job I did. Both teams shouldn't have faced each other so early .

Just saw this post.

This is why I was wanting to give group stages another try. No one likes to play just one game after all the effort.

But to be serious don't worry about it, all teams look good so there'll be a few disappointments along the way. Part of the game, that's it.

I'm quite satisfied to see that my attempt makes sense to a lot of people and they can see it function.

 

[harms]

Team of the Tournament in 1964 when Spain won the tournament, with him as Captain. In qualifying, he missed the first 3 games, and Spain gave up 4 goals. Upon him coming into the team, they only conceded 1 in the next 3 games. At club level, he made over 500 appearances for Barcelona...scoring a whopping 1 goal. He was a defender first and foremost, and could raise the performances of those around him.

I just understood why you were so eager to call Chislenko a diver

 

[harms]

I don't like the way that discussion is going. Again, we are talking more about players and less about their Euro form.

I think that Ballon D'Or lists are a pretty good indicator of early performances in international tournaments, for example - especially with guys from the Eastern Europe, as it was their only chance to shine before the camera's/FF journalists, and Albert, for example, was not the same player from 66, he only got 1 4th place vote, which is lesser than even his teammate Bene got. We can judge his style by those videos, but not really his level.

Edit: From what I can understand from google-translated Hungarian match-reports, Albert was great vs Denmark and there isn't much about him in Spanish game.

Here's Olivella (far left), failing to prevent goal from Bene and Albert is third from the left

 

[Balu]

I don't like the way that discussion is going. Again, we are talking more about players and less about their Euro form.

I think that Ballon D'Or lists are a pretty good indicator of early performances in international tournaments, for example - especially with guys from the Eastern Europe, as it was their only chance to shine before the camera's/FF journalists, and Albert, for example, was not the same player from 66, he only got 1 4th place vote, which is lesser than even his teammate Bene got. We can judge his style by those videos, but not really his level.

Both were 5th round picks though. I don't think it's a slight on Albert that Bene played a more dominant role in the team, especially in terms of goalscoring. I agree that Raees' comment that Albert is the 2nd best player on the pitch is wrong, because there are many players on the pitch who had a significantly bigger impact in Euro tournaments than him. Other than that, I don't think the general discussion is going the wrong way though, at least not regarding Suker, Nedved, Baros, van Basten, Netzer and all the other players discussed here.

 

[Raees]

I don't like the way that discussion is going. Again, we are talking more about players and less about their Euro form.

Yep, we do need to keep disciplined and feel free to let rip at those of us who are venturing beyond the scope of this draft.

I decided to withdraw my vote for that very reason as I felt my comment was inappropriate in the context of this draft.

 

[harms]

Both were 5th round picks though. I don't think it's a slight on Albert that Bene played a more dominant role in the team, especially in terms of goalscoring. I agree that Raees' comment that Albert is the 2nd best player on the pitch is wrong, because there are many players on the pitch who had a significantly bigger impact in Euro tournaments than him. Other than that, I don't think the general discussion is going the wrong way though, at least not regarding Suker, Nedved, van Basten, Netzer and all the other players discussed here.

After reading the match-report's translation in a different language, they do say that Albert was not as good as expected against Spain. Feck, we need a hungarian, I don't trust google for a bit.

Bene three times before had the opportunity to score, but all of them missed and Albert was fainter than could be expected (google-translate)

I'm a fan of Albert, it's just that he won't be a match-winner here, probably. There are much better players here on the pitch if you count their Euro form.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Maybe we need a rule... No videos in match thread unless they are of Euros. Intro videos only in draft thread.

 

[Moby]

I don't like the way that discussion is going. Again, we are talking more about players and less about their Euro form.

I think that Ballon D'Or lists are a pretty good indicator of early performances in international tournaments, for example - especially with guys from the Eastern Europe, as it was their only chance to shine before the camera's/FF journalists, and Albert, for example, was not the same player from 66, he only got 1 4th place vote, which is lesser than even his teammate Bene got. We can judge his style by those videos, but not really his level.

Hungary went out in the semi and there was no way he, or anyone from that Hungary team was going to get that much recognition from a voting point of view, at least not based on that Euro. Plus that award is based on the whole year, not just the tournament so who would you rather vote for, someone like law who had been great all year, someone like Suarez or Amancio who won the cup or someone who got eliminated in the semi final, which was the first game of the tournament back then? You have to pick 5 players, so it's fine if many don't think he was in the top 5 players that year based on both club and national form. That doesn't really tell us anything how good or bad he was at the Euro. But from wherever I've read, he was the heart of the Hungary team, and their best player as well. It wasn't like this was before or after his peak, it was smack in the middle of it. THe very next year, he was sixth in the same Ballon D'or award, two years after that, he won it. And two years before this he was the top scorer at the world cup. Of course the best way to judge his performances is watch those performances, and Balu posted one video earlier which showed a bit of what he can do. But the rest is down to our assumption.

 

[Balu]

Maybe we need a rule... No videos in match thread unless they are of Euros. Intro videos only in draft thread.

I wouldn't overdo it. We have quite a few great players who rarely featured so far in drafts. Let the managers tell their stories. There should be a focus on the Euro tournaments of course, but I don't want it to be too strict. It'll take away from the fun. It shouldn't go totally the wrong way either of course, but I don't think that happened here.

 

[Gio]

Yeah, I agree. I think you could include van Hanegem in that group as well. That immense physical presence along with being so techinically gifted is fascinating to watch. The 60's and 70's really were the golden age of football in my opinion. You had that huge group of GOATs (Beckenbauer, Best, Cruyff, Eusebio were born within 5 years and they all have a huge legacy - if you make it 7 years, you can include Pele as well) overshadowing so many other unique and wonderful players, often in their own teams.

You cannot argue with the sheer quality of any of those players, but dare I say it there is an element of romanticism there. And I think that's partly because of the emergence of the TV age, followed relatively swiftly by the colour TV age, and that's helped to give a certain generation of players a loftier place in the echelon than those who proceeded it. It's not just a football thing, it happened in music as well.

 

[Moby]

he won't be a match-winner here

For my team, all three of Xavi, Iniesta and Nedved are not only better performers in terms of Euros but also facing a lot lesser resistance than Albert is here. It's something that oversimplifies these match discussions, the whole X is on Y etc, but I'll just keep it as short as possible : The three of Xavi, Iniesta and Nedved, wherever they find themselves, will be up against Ramos, Jarni, Bonhof and Arnesen. That right there is a match winning "battle", if you can see what I am on about here.

 

[antohan]

Most of the discussion has been about the midfield battle. And fairly so as it seems an interesting one. Skizzo has built a fine unit and has a fantastic number 10 at the tip of his diamond. I should just clarify some little things though. @Edgar Allan Pillow I'm interested to hear more on why you think this 4-4-2 is not a good option against a diamond formation in terms of dominating midfield. It would have been correct had I been playing a 4-4-2 with two attacking wingers who offer less in terms of defending and midfield roles, but I am playing a 4 man midfield here, as I've explained in my tactics, the midfield unit is capable of working in several ways depending on the situation. I'll just post a few pics of how it can, to explain. But the players in there are all rounders, those who bring a lot to the table both defensively and offensively, as well as creatively. Even more so as I have not instructed either of Iniesta or Nedved to hug the touchline the whole game, and their natural game dictates that they take full part in the midfield battle as both have done throughout their careers. Things like this can easily happen during the game :

It is important that you don't generalize the team by comparing it to any 4-4-2/4-4-1-1/4-2-2-2 as this comprises of players that offer so much in all phases of the game and are capable of occupying a lot of positions. As I wrote in the tactics, that is where this team gets it's balance from and that is what makes it capable of adapting and adjusting to whatever the opposition can throw and work their way around it.

You should have included this in the OP.

It is only now that I understand why you insisted Cocu was perfect for you. I rate him and think you've described him well, but I was scratching my head wondering why he was instrumental to reproducing Spain 2008. That whole "mirror Spain '08" is probably hurting you more than it is helping because we are all looking at it wondering "can X do a good Y" when it's clear as day you have a better defence, midfield and attack than Spain '08.

It's a bit like "don't think of an elephant!", it frames and constrains the potential of your side.

 

[Moby]

You should have included this in the OP.

It is only now that I understand why you insisted Cocu was perfect for you. I rate him and think you've described him well, but I was scratching my head wondering why he was instrumental to reproducing Spain 2008. That whole "mirror Spain '08" is probably hurting you more than it is helping because we are all looking at it wondering "can X do a good Y" when it's clear as day you have a better defence, midfield and attack than Spain '08.

It's a bit like "don't think of an elephant!", it frames and constrains the potential of your side.

It would be a bit terrible to claim that I have improved something I was giving a tribute to. It's like covering a famous song, even if you sung it "better" than the original, you have to respect the original.

But anyway, when I draw comparisons they are mainly regarding playing styles and general philosophy.

But I am still a bit curious about what you said. Even if you disregard the whole one wide midfielder tucking in and the other joining the attack, why do you guys don't rate Cocu in that role? Is it mainly because you think I need a proper destroyer for that role or something? Senna played that role, he was not a limited destroyer himself, and did his job on the ball. Cocu is obviously an upgrade on Senna on the ball, but he was primarily always a defensive minded player, a holding midfielder and was tireless in his duties.

Basically when I wanted to pick a player for that position, what I looked at was : 1. Has to be defensively astute. 2. Has to be good on the ball. 3. Has to be a great team player. 4. Good energy, work rate, stamina, general physical attributes. 5. Should be able to perform a role of a DM, that is drop in front of the defense and shield it. 6. (desirable) Versatile 7. (desirable) Comes from a similar background as the Spanish ones.

Cocu ticked most of the boxes there. Even if you only consider him a part of that midfield 4, it makes me curious what people think he won't be able to do in terms of style. How good he will be able to do that is a matter of opinion but in terms of style of play, I genuinely couldn't think of better contenders.

 

[Joga Bonito]

What game is that from Suker mate? I can't see the video.

The one against Real Sociedad mate.

Spain was much better as I recall with a single front man. They did play Torres/Villa upfront, but it was not as successful nor effective as dropping Villa for a midfield CM in Fabregas. Same applies here too.

Villa was injured and most certainly not dropped. He won the Golden Boot for that tournament, finished in the team of the tournament and was brilliant in the matches that he played in. He scored the hat-trick in the opening match against a strong Russian side, leading Spain to a 4-1 victory, winning the MOTM. In the second match, he scored the 92nd minute winner against Ibra's Sweden, winning the MOTM once again whilst also vitally allowing Spain to top the group, which allowed them room to rest players for the final group game (with Villa being one of them). In the quarter finals against Italy, he played a prominent role (if memory serves me right) but couldn't score a goal. Still he paved way for Spain's first competitive victory over Italy, slotting Spain's first pen in the shootout. He suffered an injury later on though.

Enough on Villa but I don't think Spain experienced a reversal in fortune with a change in their formation. Their 4-4-2 of sorts was excellent too and that would have been their first choice formation had it not been for Villa's injury (he was one of their best players alongside Xavi till then). Villa also frequently ventured into the left hand channels and it wasn't a rigid front two, so to say. Albert too, is a flexible footballer and I don't see an issue with Aldo's formation here. Think he has executed it brilliantly myself.

BTW, @Joga Bonito you are right re: Popluhar, he always seemed reliable to me and a key player for that Czech side, it's the other three I don't rate at all given the challenge they face.

And Suker is more than just a pure striker, and I would hope he does play more as a support striker or else he would be adding nothing that MvB can't do in the box. I would prefer an Henry-type player though.

Agreed with that.

 

[antohan]

I feel he's one of those players I would have picked, and just botched it to the point where Anto comes in and flips out about how he's being used

Good to see I help keep this honest even with players I could hardly flip over

 

[Joga Bonito]

Basically when I wanted to pick a player for that position, what I looked at was : 1. Has to be defensively astute. 2. Has to be good on the ball. 3. Has to be a great team player. 4. Good energy, work rate, stamina, general physical attributes. 5. Should be able to perform a role of a DM, that is drop in front of the defense and shield it. 6. (desirable) Versatile 7. (desirable) Comes from a similar background as the Spanish ones.

Cocu ticked most of the boxes there. Even if you only consider him a part of that midfield 4, it makes me curious what people think he won't be able to do in terms of style. How good he will be able to do that is a matter of opinion but in terms of style of play, I genuinely couldn't think of better contenders.

Reading that, Lerby popped up into my mind straight away. Cocu is a great option too and think he is a good fit in your team tactically. It's just his battle with the Netzer of 72 which leaves a bit to be desired and Lerby would have been better in this regard imo but I do agree with you in that, there are very few players who can play the tough tactical role that Cocu is playing here right now.

 

[Skills]

Tough one this. I've never watched most of those players but I'm a fan of the purple kit. But then again...

black and yellow
black and yellow
black and yellow
black and yellow

 

[harms]

For my team, all three of Xavi, Iniesta and Nedved are not only better performers in terms of Euros but also facing a lot lesser resistance than Albert is here. It's something that oversimplifies these match discussions, the whole X is on Y etc, but I'll just keep it as short as possible : The three of Xavi, Iniesta and Nedved, wherever they find themselves, will be up against Ramos, Jarni, Bonhof and Arnesen. That right there is a match winning "battle", if you can see what I am on about here.

Yeah, I'm not arguing against your midfield, of course. You have a fantastic chemistry and quality there. I was going on strictly about Albert

I haven't voted myself yet, as you've probably noticed.

 

[Moby]

Reading that, Lerby popped up into my mind straight away. Cocu is a great option too and think he is a good fit in your team tactically. It's just his battle with the Netzer of 72 which leaves a bit to be desired and Lerby would have been better in this regard imo.

I thought about Lerby as well, but I knew a lot more about Cocu than Lerby, and forgive me if I am wrong, but the last time I picked Lerby and read about him, he was always portrayed as a box to box midfielder, whereas I was looking more for a holding midfielder type of player.

As for the battle, like I mentioned earlier there are battles all over the pitch in favour of both teams.

- Van Basten against Bossis and Happel.
- Netzer against Cocu.
- Iniesta and Lahm against Ramos and Arnesen.
- Nedved and Kaltz against Bonhof and Jarni.
- Xavi against whichever one of his CMs comes to deal with him.

You can see a pattern there. All these battles will be won by attacking players. Of course, Skizzo and Pat would tell you Cocu will have a tougher time dealing with Netzer than Bonhof/Arnesen would have with the Xavi or Iniesta or Nedved. I will tell you otherwise, but at the end, the key players of both the teams would do well here. It is up to you to decide which ones will edge it to a win. I've obviously shown more battles I am winning there than he is, but I've genuinely tried to be un-biased there.

To make it a little broader, as per my plan, one of the wide midfielders tucks in, other goes forward, so a lot of times the midfield battle would be a 3v3 between Cocu, Xavi, Iniesta/Nedved and Bonhof, Arnesen and Netzer.

This above situation becomes a lot more dangerous when it is Nedved the one in midfield and Iniesta the one that has gone forward. At that point Iniesta is in his complete 2012 element, and the two Box to Box midfielders wouldn't be able to help out the fullbacks, in turn having the spare CB, Olivella I'm guessing, having to cover the fullback. Iniesta made a mockery of defenders in those situations, and I wouldn't bet against him having the better of Ramos and Olivella there, a few times, specially when Lahm bombing forward in support. Once that happens, that side is in trouble.

 

[antohan]

I might be in the minority here but as a footballer I prefer him to Iniesta.. I think he had more to his game. Incredibly influential footballer who was not only technically complete but one of the most mentally sound and physically robust attacking midfielders of the modern game.

It is hard to find match compilations of him Euro wise but some of his world cup performances when he was past his peak were simply out of this world.

Remember him v the Dutch in Euro 2004 where he was god-like. Such an exciting footballer.

I'm with you man.

I agree, but for a moment there I thought you would get Aldo into trouble the same way he got me into trouble in the all-time draft with his blind love for Iniesta. Not that they aren't of similar stature, they are, but Nedved is the better more complete package IMO. I'm not sure Iniesta could be as influential in any setup, while Nedved could be dropped into any setup and he would make it his own. To this day I still can't tell what the Czechs were playing at in 2004, all I know is it was beautiful to watch.

 

[Moby]

Yeah, I'm not arguing against your midfield, of course. You have a fantastic chemistry and quality there. I was going on strictly about Albert

I haven't voted myself yet, as you've probably noticed.

Yeah I just went off with something I had in mind earlier. So yea, what I wanted to say was if I am going to win the match, given the teams on paper there are players in my team more likely to make that happen than Albert, mainly due to how the opposition has set up.

 

[Moby]

I'm not sure Iniesta could be as influential in any setup, while Nedved could be dropped into any setup and he would make it his own.

Yep. Out of the three main Barca players throughout their tiki taka reign, Iniesta IMO is the least likely to perform at the same level in a completely different set up. Messi can still play on the flank as a support striker and would destroy fullbacks for fun, even if he doesn't score a million goals in a year he would be unstoppable and win games single handedly. Xavi, again, played in Rijkaard's Barca and Aragones' Spain team, both of which were a lot more direct. (There's a lot more to tell why he would be equally great in any setup, even more than Messi, but that would derail this thread).

 

[antohan]

Yep, we do need to keep disciplined and feel free to let rip at those of us who are venturing beyond the scope of this draft.

I decided to withdraw my vote for that very reason as I felt my comment was inappropriate in the context of this draft.

After reading the match-report's translation in a different language, they do say that Albert was not as good as expected against Spain. Feck, we need a hungarian, I don't trust google for a bit.

I'm a fan of Albert, it's just that he won't be a match-winner here, probably. There are much better players here on the pitch if you count their Euro form.

Maybe we need a rule... No videos in match thread unless they are of Euros. Intro videos only in draft thread.

feck that shit. Everyone should know Albert vs. Brazil can't be from a Euro tournament but at the very least they get an idea of what sort of player he was.

The only thing wrong there was "second best player on the pitch", which would be a reasonable personal take on a peak level, if not Euro form. Nothing to get your knickers in a twist about, the point here is that many discover great players, who gives a rats about the scorelines?

Let's face it, even if you posted a Baros '04 clip most will just think Baros Liverpool flop, so it goes both ways.

All in all: STOP TRYING TO MAKE UP SHIT RULES TO MAKE THE GAMES "FAIRER", IT'S NOT A feckING ENGINEERING PROJECT, IT'S FOOTBALL AND MOST PEOPLE WILL BE BIASED AS feck. DEAL WITH IT.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I thought about Lerby as well, but I knew a lot more about Cocu than Lerby, and forgive me if I am wrong, but the last time I picked Lerby and read about him, he was always portrayed as a box to box midfielder, whereas I was looking more for a holding midfielder type of player.

As for the battle, like I mentioned earlier there are battles all over the pitch in favour of both teams.

- Van Basten against Bossis and Happel.
- Netzer against Cocu.
- Iniesta and Lahm against Ramos and Arnesen.
- Nedved and Kaltz against Bonhof and Jarni.
- Xavi against whichever one of his CMs comes to deal with him.

You can see a pattern there. All these battles will be won by attacking players. Of course, Skizzo and Pat would tell you Cocu will have a tougher time dealing with Netzer than Bonhof/Arnesen would have with the Xavi or Iniesta or Nedved. I will tell you otherwise, but at the end, the key players of both the teams would do well here. It is up to you to decide which ones will edge it to a win. I've obviously shown more battles I am winning there than he is, but I've genuinely tried to be un-biased there.

To make it a little broader, as per my plan, one of the wide midfielders tucks in, other goes forward, so a lot of times the midfield battle would be a 3v3 between Cocu, Xavi, Iniesta/Nedved and Bonhof, Arnesen and Netzer.

This above situation becomes a lot more dangerous when it is Nedved the one in midfield and Iniesta the one that has gone forward. At that point Iniesta is in his complete 2012 element, and the two Box to Box midfielders wouldn't be able to help out the fullbacks, in turn having the spare CB, Olivella I'm guessing, having to cover the fullback. Iniesta made a mockery of defenders in those situations, and I wouldn't bet against him having the better of Ramos and Olivella there, a few times, specially when Lahm bombing forward in support. Once that happens, that side is in trouble.

Lerby was a b2b but he was equally at ease in the DM role and that was the role he played for the Danish Dynamite team in Euro 1984.

Some good points there and I love the tactical flexibility that the likes of Iniesta, Nedved and Albert offer in your team. It's just a cohesive tactical unit brimming with great individuals which is easy to buy. I just can't separate both teams at the moment unfortunately .

 

[antohan]

But I am still a bit curious about what you said. Even if you disregard the whole one wide midfielder tucking in and the other joining the attack, why do you guys don't rate Cocu in that role? Is it mainly because you think I need a proper destroyer for that role or something? Senna played that role, he was not a limited destroyer himself, and did his job on the ball. Cocu is obviously an upgrade on Senna on the ball, but he was primarily always a defensive minded player, a holding midfielder and was tireless in his duties.

Basically when I wanted to pick a player for that position, what I looked at was : 1. Has to be defensively astute. 2. Has to be good on the ball. 3. Has to be a great team player. 4. Good energy, work rate, stamina, general physical attributes. 5. Should be able to perform a role of a DM, that is drop in front of the defense and shield it. 6. (desirable) Versatile 7. (desirable) Comes from a similar background as the Spanish ones.

Cocu ticked most of the boxes there. Even if you only consider him a part of that midfield 4, it makes me curious what people think he won't be able to do in terms of style. How good he will be able to do that is a matter of opinion but in terms of style of play, I genuinely couldn't think of better contenders.

I love Cocu and love to bits the way you are using him now you have explained it. In the context of Spain '08 though, he is no Senna, Cocu isn't someone I would leave all the midfield heavylifting to, much like you wouldn't leave it to Carrick... yet when Carrick is missing it doesn't matter how many heavylifters you draft in instead. Different players, and when your rival has a singular and physical creative threat in midfield putting a heavy-lifter on him is what is required. You don't play off him, keep shape, intercept, you go for taking him out of the game Makelele style.

That said, I rather prefer the way you are playing it, focusing on your strengths and not trying to negate your rivals'.

 

[antohan]

Lerby was a b2b but he was equally at ease in the DM role and that was the role he played for the Danish Dynamite team in Euro 1984.

Some good points there and I love the tactical flexibility that the likes of Iniesta, Nedved and Albert offer in your team. It's just a cohesive tactical unit brimming with great individuals which is easy to buy. I just can't separate both teams at the moment unfortunately .

In this setup I prefer Cocu TBH. With all the other midfielders rotating one way or the other, it's the sort of disciplined tactical role he would relish.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I love Cocu and love to bits the way you are using him now you have explained it. In the context of Spain '08 though, he is no Senna, Cocu isn't someone I would leave all the midfield heavylifting to, much like you wouldn't leave it to Carrick... yet when Carrick is missing it doesn't matter how many heavylifters you draft in instead. Different players, and when your rival has a singular and physical creative threat in midfield putting a heavy-lifter on him is what is required. You don't play off him, keep shape, intercept, you go for taking him out of the game Makelele style.

That said, I rather prefer the way you are playing it, focusing on your strengths and not trying to negate your rivals'.

Yup, playing Senna there would have limited Netzer's influence more but it would have also made Aldo's team as a tactical unit less impressive. Even Lerby, who I'm a huge fan of wouldn't offer the same nifty short passing game that Cocu would offer you here despite Lerby's impressive passing range.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

i agree with @antohan

any videos of older players is great as you get the chance to see how he played, i now its not perfect because we are rating players on euro form but its better then nothing.....
take this game as example, im giving @Skizzo benefit of the doubt with his players and who knows how good they were. Maybe Olivella was benefiting from possession based side and thats why his team didnt concede, in this game he will be on the wrong side of possession battle so who knows how would he cope with that. Maybe its unfair to @Aldo but we all know this will happen when there are unfamiliar players involved.

 

[Raees]

feck that shit. Everyone should know Albert vs. Brazil can't be from a Euro tournament but at the very least they get an idea of what sort of player he was.

The only thing wrong there was "second best player on the pitch", which would be a reasonable personal take on a peak level, if not Euro form. Nothing to get your knickers in a twist about, the point here is that many discover great players, who gives a rats about the scorelines?

Let's face it, even if you posted a Baros '04 clip most will just think Baros Liverpool flop, so it goes both ways.

All in all: STOP TRYING TO MAKE UP SHIT RULES TO MAKE THE GAMES "FAIRER", IT'S NOT A feckING ENGINEERING PROJECT, IT'S FOOTBALL AND MOST PEOPLE WILL BE BIASED AS feck. DEAL WITH IT.

love it.

 

[Balu]

7-7 with 10 withdrawn votes at the moment. 2 hours to go. I won't be around when the game ends, so in case it goes to penalties, is someone around to do the penalty shoot-out with a bit of commentary? That would be awesome. No need to wait for me, just organise it yourself and get it done.

 

[Moby]

I won't be around probably either (its 420 today ) so if it does end up as a draw you'd have to wait a few hours.