The Economics Thread

" for anyone to listen to you on who should be considered an authority?"

That is an asshole thing to say and people who say it normally are insecure about the strength of their own arguments. My background is that I have an MBA and work in the healthcare sector. I do contracting. Was Einstein not an authority on physics when he worked for years in the patent office and wrote his papers in 1905 on special relativity?
I think we are done now as I don't want you to go to the trouble of googling any more info.
 
" for anyone to listen to you on who should be considered an authority?"

That is an asshole thing to say and people who say it normally are insecure about the strength of their own arguments. My background is that I have an MBA and work in the healthcare sector. I do contracting. Was Einstein not an authority on physics when he worked for years in the patent office and wrote his papers in 1905 on special relativity?
I think we are done now as I don't want you to go to the trouble of googling any more info.

You're not exactly doing yourself any favors by likening your knowledge of economics as a healthcare contractor to Einstein developing general relativity while working at the patent office.
 
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The Healthcare stuff is just ridiculous so I am not going to address that again.
Now, lets look at what your wonderful economists said:

"Myth: Free trade means jobs go overseas.

Reality: Free trade may reduce jobs in inefficient industries, but it frees up resources to create jobs in efficient industries, boosting overall wages and improving living standards. "

in inefficient industries,
Inefficient industries huh, like the whole of the US manufacturing sector in the 70s? It is so much more 'efficient' to move our factories to places where we only have to pay our workers 1/6th of the wages, where we don't have to worry about environmental regulations or labor laws, where business can thrive and we can make much more money. The cost of goods sold goes down, our profits go up. What could possibly be wrong with this?

it frees up resources to create jobs in efficient industries
This assumes the one percent reinvest this money in creating jobs. Reality suggests that they don't. People who start businesses are not the super wealthy for the most part

boosting overall wages and improving living standards.
Real wages in the US have stagnated or gone done. Real wages in China have gone up from the pittance they were before we donated our manufacturing sector to them.

But economists don't care about anything other than numbers so from a numbers perspective, the above is correct. Free trade is more efficient than making things ourselves and due to globalization, that efficiency has been massively increased since companies don't need to pay good wages any more. But I already conceded that point long ago and I think we are talking past one another now.

Manufacturing fetishism.

And there you go again, falsely assuming all economists think the same, care about the same things right after selectively quoting my post. That is exactly why I included two quotes from different sources. Mercatus is neo-classical, Stiglitz is neo-Keynesian. There is not just one argument for trade> protectionism, there are dozens of different arguments against protectionism from different sources. Stiglitz is spot on the money on why Trump's protectionism is foolish at this point in time

Stiglitz:
Precisely. He wants to destroy the rules-based system that we've created over the period since World War II. He wants to go behind protectionist barriers that would actually result in doubling the damage that American workers suffered. They suffered when we opened up our markets. We created now efficient global supply chains and destroying those global supply chains is going to be just as disruptive, and the American workers are going to be worse off once again.

You still haven't supported any of your main claims/assumptions:
1) loss of manufacturing jobs is the cause of wage stagnation
2) protectionism would be beneficial for the middle class

I have presented concrete evidence against both of your assumptions. Even the Harvard Business Review article that you posted disagreed with your assumptions about wage stagnation and among its half dozen suggestions there are no protectionist suggestions. None of the biggest events that have harmed the middle/working class like 2006-08 financial crisis have anything to do with protectionism vs free trade. Your anger is simply misplaced.

" for anyone to listen to you on who should be considered an authority?"

That is an asshole thing to say and people who say it normally are insecure about the strength of their own arguments. My background is that I have an MBA and work in the healthcare sector. I do contracting. Was Einstein not an authority on physics when he worked for years in the patent office and wrote his papers in 1905 on special relativity?
I think we are done now as I don't want you to go to the trouble of googling any more info.

Wait, you are comparing yourself to Einstein and your ideas on protectionism to Special Relativity? :lol:
Do you have a brother named Mike by any chance?
 
Here’s Why Labor Should Resist Trump’s Tariff
It will have little economic effect but will add more bellicosity to a world already overdosing on it.


The European Union has announced intentions to raise duties on red-state products like peanut butter, Harleys, and bourbon. (Announcing the measures, European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker said, “We can also do stupid. We also have to be this stupid.”) China is also threatening retaliation; soybean farmers fear they may be targets. Whenever tariffs are in the news, mainstream commentators inevitably draw analogies to the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, the 1930 bill almost universally credited for helping make the Great Depression great by provoking a global trade war. Those are way overdone, but Trump was characteristically wrong when he pronounced trade wars “good, and easy to win.”

It’s not clear how Trump imagines victory in this fight. Let’s take a look at the economics of steel, an industry Trump equates with national greatness. If that’s the measure, American greatness has suffered from a long bear market. Back in 1958, the heart of an era that Trump seems to romanticize, steel accounted for less than 1 percent of total US employment. Twenty years later, 1978, it was down to 0.5 percent—and that’s before the accelerated deindustrialization of the 1980s brought us the term “Rust Belt.” It’s now under 0.1 percent. But it’s not like steel itself is disappearing. While steel employment is off 54 percent since 1990, the production of steel (by the Federal Reserve’s measure) is up 18 percent. Between 1990 and 2015 (the latest year available), productivity per hour of labor in the steel sector was up 151 percent. Labor’s share of value-added in the industry—the portion of the difference between revenues and costs of raw materials that’s paid out to workers—fell from 23 percent in 1990 to 13 percent in 2015. In other words, steel workers aren’t doing well, but the steel industry is doing OK. It’s not booming, but it’s solidly profitable. It’s hard to see how Trump’s tariffs are going to change this in any meaningful way.

We have some recent experience with steel tariffs, the ones imposed by George W. Bush in March 2002. Bush lifted them in December 2003, under threat of retaliation by the EU, with another politically well-selected set of targets (Florida oranges, and Harleys again), and complaints by domestic steel users. During the 21 months they were in effect, steel employment fell by 9 percent, but production rose by 20 percent. There’s evidence that steel-using industries, like autos and appliances, took a mild hit from the resulting higher prices; a survey by the US International Trade Commission, an independent, quasi-judicial branch of the federal government, found higher steel prices, at least for a while, that were hard to pass along, and mildly increased difficulty in sourcing steel. Overall, the ITC estimated that the tariffs resulted in a “welfare loss” of $42 million, an almost immeasurably trivial amount by the standards of the US economy. Of course, the story could have been different had Bush not lifted the tariffs, and the retaliations escalated. It wouldn’t be surprising if Trump does the same; he’s already making exceptions—though it’s worrisome that he is now ordering his aides to prepare a fresh set of tariffs on Chinese goods.

https://www.thenation.com/article/heres-why-labor-should-resist-trumps-tariff/
 
" for anyone to listen to you on who should be considered an authority?"

That is an asshole thing to say and people who say it normally are insecure about the strength of their own arguments. My background is that I have an MBA and work in the healthcare sector. I do contracting. Was Einstein not an authority on physics when he worked for years in the patent office and wrote his papers in 1905 on special relativity?
I think we are done now as I don't want you to go to the trouble of googling any more info.
Are you for real? You have, while knowing that the person you're debating is an economist, repeatedly questioned the intelligence of economists, carefully explained just how little you care about what economists say, accused him of not providing or understanding facts (while providing none yourself, and understanding even less), and now you're going to pull him up on questioning your qualifications?

Given how full of holes every single one of your arguments are, I'm frankly amazed at how patient he's been with trying to address them, because frankly, you don't deserve that courtesy.

And you're comparing yourself to Einstein now? Wow.
 
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" for anyone to listen to you on who should be considered an authority?"

That is an asshole thing to say and people who say it normally are insecure about the strength of their own arguments. My background is that I have an MBA and work in the healthcare sector. I do contracting. Was Einstein not an authority on physics when he worked for years in the patent office and wrote his papers in 1905 on special relativity?
I think we are done now as I don't want you to go to the trouble of googling any more info.

No offense, but an MBA is not a patch on an actual Master of Science in Economics/Business administration. @oneniltothearsenal knows what he's talking about.
 
The 80s saw a revolution in manufacturing bought about by the microchip and its adoption into robotics and other plant machinery. You don't need as many people to make the same amount of shite.

The key to middle class wages is government spending. Health, Education, infrastructure etc has to be done here and is full of middle class professions. Tax the wealthy and spread it around.
 
The 80s saw a revolution in manufacturing bought about by the microchip and its adoption into robotics and other plant machinery. You don't need as many people to make the same amount of shite.

The key to middle class wages is government spending. Health, Education, infrastructure etc has to be done here and is full of middle class professions. Tax the wealthy and spread it around.

No, its still the productivity of middle class labor. As I always say, labor is still the largest factor of production in the economy.
 
What are these healthcare contractors?

also called insurance agents.

They make their money from employers who provide Health plans and the employees.

Just look at their profits. Guess who ultimately pays for their profits.

High premiums and High deductables.

Even in a state like Minnesota which has a Health exchange called MNSure, they prey on companies who dont understand or do not want to deal with teh 'problem' of dealing with the exchange. And of course you have the Republican media who dish out disinformation.

I have advised companies when working as a consultant to use the exchange which gives much better and cheaper coverage.

These agents have the gall to sit in front of me and deride MNsure.

Some plans have this option which says you pay say 1 % or 3% or whatever of the cost.

Imagine having to deal with a major medical bill for a serious accident or god forbid an illness.
 
also called insurance agents.

They make their money from employers who provide Health plans and the employees.

Just look at their profits. Guess who ultimately pays for their profits.

High premiums and High deductables.

Even in a state like Minnesota which has a Health exchange called MNSure, they prey on companies who dont understand or do not want to deal with teh 'problem' of dealing with the exchange. And of course you have the Republican media who dish out disinformation.

I have advised companies when working as a consultant to use the exchange which gives much better and cheaper coverage.

These agents have the gall to sit in front of me and deride MNsure.

Some plans have this option which says you pay say 1 % or 3% or whatever of the cost.

Imagine having to deal with a major medical bill for a serious accident or god forbid an illness.

Plus he knows feck-all about healthcare and the real issues/root causes other than the superficialities - ie. from policy to care continuum to financial sustainability and the bending of the cost curves. I did a startup that addressed the tools to bend the curve.
He simply cherry-picks information and then tries to put together some sort of idea without understanding the actual economic principles and frameworks.
I did A-Levels Economics, and double degree at undergrad incl economics knowing that I know enough at a 90,000ft level but that I still need to refer to the actual experts.
 
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This might be controversial.
I had just finished high school when the crash happened so my real time knowledge about the events leading up to the crash is poor. Most of what I know is from endless case studies about the crash.
I know banks get virtually all the blame for the crash. My question is has personal responsibility been totally ignored in the Subprime lending fiasco?
With the securitization of these mortgages into CDOs, we can understand why banks were shelling out morgages like there was no tomorrow...they were greedy. They could sell off the risk. But how come so many people signed up to mortgages they knew they couldn't afford?
 
This might be controversial.
I had just finished high school when the crash happened so my real time knowledge about the events leading up to the crash is poor. Most of what I know is from endless case studies about the crash.
I know banks get virtually all the blame for the crash. My question is has personal responsibility been totally ignored in the Subprime lending fiasco?
With the securitization of these mortgages into CDOs, we can understand why banks were shelling out morgages like there was no tomorrow...they were greedy. They could sell off the risk. But how come so many people signed up to mortgages they knew they couldn't afford?

Yes, it also needed thousands of greedy people on the other end, buying houses they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. But there was a large amount of exploitation and essentially fraud, selling people who didn't fully understand that the first year or so of the loan would have an artificially low rate. People who didn't speak English fluently were specifically targeted in many cases.

We'll never have a way to measure the impact of each, but I put more responsibility on the banks, rating agencies and regulators who actually had the tools to figure out what was going on and instead didn't figure it out, or did and just kept the foot to the gas.
 
Yes, it also needed thousands of greedy people on the other end, buying houses they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. But there was a large amount of exploitation and essentially fraud, selling people who didn't fully understand that the first year or so of the loan would have an artificially low rate. People who didn't speak English fluently were specifically targeted in many cases.

We'll never have a way to measure the impact of each, but I put more responsibility on the banks, rating agencies and regulators who actually had the tools to figure out what was going on and instead didn't figure it out, or did and just kept the foot to the gas.
Totally agree with the second part. Overall responsibility has to be on the banks and regulators. I was just having a look at underwritten NINA loans today which are virtually non existent and trying to figure out how these banks got people to sign up to it.
 
This might be controversial.
I had just finished high school when the crash happened so my real time knowledge about the events leading up to the crash is poor. Most of what I know is from endless case studies about the crash.
I know banks get virtually all the blame for the crash. My question is has personal responsibility been totally ignored in the Subprime lending fiasco?
With the securitization of these mortgages into CDOs, we can understand why banks were shelling out morgages like there was no tomorrow...they were greedy. They could sell off the risk. But how come so many people signed up to mortgages they knew they couldn't afford?

Your question has a serious flaw, the people didn't know they couldn't afford them
 
Your question has a serious flaw, the people didn't know they couldn't afford them
How? I can understand people losing their jobs etc but a lot of NINA loans specifically targeted people with virtually no income or assets. I want to understand how the mortgage companies got these people to sign those loans before selling the loans off to banks.
 
How? I can understand people losing their jobs etc but a lot of NINA loans specifically targeted people with virtually no income or assets. I want to understand how the mortgage companies got these people to sign those loans before selling the loans off to banks.

Picture the scene...

Bank: Mr Broke, we'll give you some cash, trust us we know you can afford it

Mr Broke: Where do I sign
 
Plus he knows feck-all about healthcare and the real issues/root causes other than the superficialities - ie. from policy to care continuum to financial sustainability and the bending of the cost curves. I did a startup that addressed the tools to bend the curve.
He simply cherry-picks information and then tries to put together some sort of idea without understanding the actual economic principles and frameworks.
I did A-Levels Economics, and double degree at undergrad incl economics knowing that I know enough at a 90,000ft level but that I still need to refer to the actual experts.

People with vested interest always will see something to support their interest.

This guy has no proper grasp on what is going on out there.
 
This might be controversial.
I had just finished high school when the crash happened so my real time knowledge about the events leading up to the crash is poor. Most of what I know is from endless case studies about the crash.
I know banks get virtually all the blame for the crash. My question is has personal responsibility been totally ignored in the Subprime lending fiasco?
With the securitization of these mortgages into CDOs, we can understand why banks were shelling out morgages like there was no tomorrow...they were greedy. They could sell off the risk. But how come so many people signed up to mortgages they knew they couldn't afford?


A few quick comments here.

First, you say banks but the real problem were the mortgage lending houses. Its a important distinction. Countrywide being the biggest and a trend setter in corruption. There were also dozens of smaller mortgage lenders that set up shop between 2001 and 2006. Their sole business model was selling mortgages that they instantly re-packaged and sold on to investment houses like Bear and Lehman. Some of the investment houses even jumped in setting up their pop-up mortgage shops. But almost all the traditional, smaller local/State banks and credit unions were largely unaffected as most of them didn't change their lending policies the way the mortgage lenders and the pop-up shops did. 85% of the subprime mortgages were from mortgage houses not banks.

Its also important to remember every mortgage was targeted. To just reduce it to a sub-prime mortgage problem doesn't capture the scope. The tactics used by the aggressive mortgage shops were applied to all socio-economic brackets. The middle class defaulted a lot as well. The reason the MBS and CDO failed so thoroughly was that middle class and even upper class mortgages were being defaulted on at an alarming rate.

And its important to look at the aggressive tactics mortgage houses used. The mortgage houses were obsessed with adjustable rate mortgages that had low payments for 3-4 years then would start to balloon after that. By the mortgage lender would have long ago sold off the debt so they didn't care. One common sales tactic was to point out that the real estate market always steadily rises.
"So look YUPPIE couple, you have 3-4 years of low payments before it balloons. But remember, real estate always increases in value. So what you do is simply wait for two, three years while your property value goes up, then you simply re-finance before the balloon payment hits. Because now your home is now more valuable than you owe, re-financing is easy-peazy. You can even do another ARM and then re-finance again!"

Or they would try to sell a second rental home to families that just made into the well-to-do category. They just claim they can rent the property to cover the mortgage and then either re-finance (on assumption of higher property values) or just claim the higher property values means rising rent can cover the balloon payments. Basically mortgage houses were simply over-selling the entire field of real estate to anyone and everyone who would listen in order to make a cash grab from the re-packaging and re-selling. So when the real estate market re-adjusted from top to bottom, a lot of middle class and upper middle were also caught out with bad investments in 1st or 2nd property they couldn't keep up with.

I should add its important to remember that the dot-com stock crash was still fresh in people's minds 2002-2006. So the general perception was that real estate was the "safe" investment. Very, very few people then actually knew how the mortgage lenders and the investment houses were spreading crazy amounts of risk throughout the economy with debt based on real estate. The average person thought investing in real estate was the wise thing to do, not risky like investing in those tech stocks.
 
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A few quick comments here.

First, you say banks but the real problem were the mortgage lending houses. Its a important distinction. Countrywide being the biggest and a trend setter in corruption. There were also dozens of smaller mortgage lenders that set up shop between 2001 and 2006. Their sole business model was selling mortgages that they instantly re-packaged and sold on to investment houses like Bear and Lehman. Some of the investment houses even jumped in setting up their pop-up mortgage shops. But almost all the traditional, smaller local/State banks and credit unions were largely unaffected as most of them didn't change their lending policies the way the mortgage lenders and the pop-up shops did. 85% of the subprime mortgages were from mortgage houses not banks.

Its also important to remember every mortgage was targeted. To just reduce it to a sub-prime mortgage problem doesn't capture the scope. The tactics used by the aggressive mortgage shops were applied to all socio-economic brackets. The middle class defaulted a lot as well. The reason the MBS and CDO failed so thoroughly was that middle class and even upper class mortgages were being defaulted on at an alarming rate.

And its important to look at the aggressive tactics mortgage houses used. The mortgage houses were obsessed with adjustable rate mortgages that had low payments for 3-4 years then would start to balloon after that. By the mortgage lender would have long ago sold off the debt so they didn't care. One common sales tactic was to point out that the real estate market always steadily rises.
"So look YUPPIE couple, you have 3-4 years of low payments before it balloons. But remember, real estate always increases in value. So what you do is simply wait for two, three years while your property value goes up, then you simply re-finance before the balloon payment hits. Because now your home is now more valuable than you owe, re-financing is easy-peazy. You can even do another ARM and then re-finance again!"

Or they would try to sell a second rental home to families that just made into the well-to-do category. They just claim they can rent the property to cover the mortgage and then either re-finance (on assumption of higher property values) or just claim the higher property values means rising rent can cover the balloon payments. Basically mortgage houses were simply over-selling the entire field of real estate to anyone and everyone who would listen in order to make a cash grab from the re-packaging and re-selling. So when the real estate market re-adjusted from top to bottom, a lot of middle class and upper middle were also caught out with bad investments in 1st or 2nd property they couldn't keep up with.

I should add its important to remember that the dot-com stock crash was still fresh in people's minds 2002-2006. So the general perception was that real estate was the "safe" investment. Very, very few people then actually knew how the mortgage lenders and the investment houses were spreading crazy amounts of risk throughout the economy with debt based on real estate. The average person thought investing in real estate was the wise thing to do, not risky like investing in those tech stocks.
Thanks. A good explanation. I made the distinction between the mortgage houses and banks in my second post.
I always thought for middle and upper income borrowers, they ditched the loans because the value of the loans started to exceed the value of their homes, and that was towards the end of the crisis (circa 2006).
 
Thanks. A good explanation. I made the distinction between the mortgage houses and banks in my second post.
I always thought for middle and upper income borrowers, they ditched the loans because the value of the loans started to exceed the value of their homes, and that was towards the end of the crisis (circa 2006).

You can't ditch a loan without a buyer though. No one is taking over a loan that exceed the value of the property.

The other thing is that it was the rising defaults of the middle and upper income loans that really caused the cascading crash effect because those were the debts that were underpinning the ridiculous triple-A ratings of the MBS because those weren't supposed to default at all and ruined the investments.
 
200b in tarriffs! This is wonderful news. :D Well, I guess we are going to find out if the world comes to an end or not now!
 
I hope they retaliate so that we slap another 360b tarriffs on them. I think Bejing is probably reeling in shock right now. They are used to dealing with politicians who say one thing and do another so they thought it was all bluster, all for show. Trump actually does what he says he is going to do! The tariffs go into effect next Monday.
 
I hope they retaliate so that we slap another 360b tarriffs on them. I think Bejing is probably reeling in shock right now. They are used to dealing with politicians who say one thing and do another so they thought it was all bluster, all for show. Trump actually does what he says he is going to do! The tariffs go into effect next Monday.

Since you work in health care, how do you think single payer health care (aka medicare for all) will affect your work and the healthcare industry in general ?
 
Since you work in health care, how do you think single payer health care (aka medicare for all) will affect your work and the healthcare industry in general ?
It will never happen but if it did, it would be a bloodbath. About 1/6th of the US economy is healthcare. You would have to restructure it.
 
I hope they retaliate so that we slap another 360b tarriffs on them. I think Bejing is probably reeling in shock right now. They are used to dealing with politicians who say one thing and do another so they thought it was all bluster, all for show. Trump actually does what he says he is going to do! The tariffs go into effect next Monday.

Do you honestly believe this?
 
It will never happen but if it did, it would be a bloodbath. About 1/6th of the US economy is healthcare. You would have to restructure it.

That's an important point that often isn't addressed. The entire healthcare sector of the stock market would have some serious downside risk, and by extension, the broader market. A lot of pension funds may be affected.
 
Do you honestly believe this?
Yes. I think we have all the leverage in these negotiations and finally, we have someone with the balls to use it (since he isn't a real politician). If they do retaliate, it may very well be suicidal. Their economy depends hugely on their exports to us. It's a lot easier for us to find someone new to sell us products than it is for them to find a new buyer.
 
Yes. I think we have all the leverage in these negotiations and finally, we have someone with the balls to use it (since he isn't a real politician). If they do retaliate, it may very well be suicidal. Their economy depends hugely on their exports to us. It's a lot easier for us to find someone new to sell us products than it is for them to find a new buyer.
In a full-on trade war both sides will lose heavily. The Chinese will obviously blame Trump and put the responsibility on him, who will you blame?
 
In a full-on trade war both sides will lose heavily. The Chinese will obviously blame Trump and put the responsibility on him, who will you blame?
I don't think there has ever been a precedent for this. Pointing to history misses the point that the economy wasn't globalized back then when tariffs had such negative consequences. Nobody knows what will happen really, even if cnut economists pretend that they do and paint doomsday pictures. If China wants to throw its economy down the toilet, go right ahead. We'll find another country to make most of our stuff for us (step forward India?) and maybe, make a bit more of it ourselves. It might be a difficult transition but it will be a lot more difficult for them than it will be for us.
 
I don't think there has ever been a precedent for this. Pointing to history misses the point that the economy wasn't globalized back then when tariffs had such negative consequences. Nobody knows what will happen really, even if cnut economists pretend that they do and paint doomsday pictures. If China wants to throw its economy down the toilet, go right ahead. We'll find another country to make most of our stuff for us (step forward India?) and maybe, make a bit more of it ourselves. It might be a difficult transition but it will be a lot more difficult for them than it will be for us.

Was checking the wages of China vs India, and I'm surprised to find out that Chinese workers make around 3 times more than an Indian. shiiiiiet.

No wonder Apple (and many more i presume) is moving factories to India.
 
That's an important point that often isn't addressed. The entire healthcare sector of the stock market would have some serious downside risk, and by extension, the broader market. A lot of pension funds may be affected.

This is true. That is why the change will not be a simple switch.

many workers in the health insurance industry will transition into actual support areas for the large number of people needing health care.

As for investments, fund managers will move to other industries.

From purely a moral stand point we must move to single payer.
 
Was checking the wages of China vs India, and I'm surprised to find out that Chinese workers make around 3 times more than an Indian. shiiiiiet.

No wonder Apple (and many more i presume) is moving factories to India.
How would an economist put it - the market has become inefficient and the resources are better relocated elsewhere so that the 1 percent can pay its workers slave labor wages rather than the pittance they currently pay the Chinese workers. What could be wrong with that?
 
This is true. That is why the change will not be a simple switch.

many workers in the health insurance industry will transition into actual support areas for the large number of people needing health care.

As for investments, fund managers will move to other industries.

From purely a moral stand point we must move to single payer.

Agreed. The market angle would need to be scrutinized to ensure the impact on markets will be minimal. Otherwise, it could cause opponents to gain the upper hand and scupper the entire project much as they've done with the ACA.