Pupi.
The Doubles Draft - SF: Invictus/Theon vs Downcast
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
It's a mess, alright. 90% of it is completely unnecessary too. The players featured here aren't exactly obscure, and the people who actually read these match threads have read/seen this stuff a million times before.
I'd have him and Kaltz (again, just for the offensive part) as Brehme's equals on the right (as I rate him slightly ahead of them overall), although I know that you love him dearly and I can definitely sympathize with that.Pupi.
You consider him more attacking than, Gerets, Suurbier and as Aldo notes, Zanetti?
As a right offensive wingback in particular I'd surely have him ahead of Brehme, love or no love.
The fact that he played majority of his career in that precise role and was rarely if ever dominated by a wide player is a testimony to his ability. Not to mention he has played way more games in that role than Brehme (right wing back) as he had a longer career at the top anyway. Nothing between them in their natural roles but the right belongs to The Tractor. Yeah, it's between him and Cabrini probably, although it's hard to assess Varela's and Monti's actual level based just on the quotes, team honours and a few seconds of footage (all that we can definitely say is that they were the truly outstanding players of their generation)
And when Redondo with Cabrini are the weakest players on the pitch it's saying something
I personally think that Redondo had the highest peak of any midfielder since Rijkaard/Matthaus (with the possible exception of Xavi) - no other midfielder quite matched that combination of defensive and technical ability that Redondo managed.
Personally I would take Redondo over Monti ever day of the week - which I think is reflected in Redondo being a first round pick in the draft and Monti being a seventh round pick (not that where a player is picked overly matters).
I agree there are no real weak spots and certainly no weak players - but IMO the biggest weakness would be Cabrini at left wing back facing that Garrincha/Brehme flank.
I don't think there is realistically any chance of him coping with that and it looks the most likely source of a goal on the pitch.
Ronaldo was fantastic and the thought of him combining with Maradona is mouthwatering - but he's up against a defence marshalled by the greatest centre back from Europe and the joint greatest from South America.
There's very little width in that attack which means that Facchetti in particular can also tuck in tight centrally and restrict space further.
I also rate our goalkeeper much higher than Downcast's.
I consider him to be a better player than those two (especially
Surely it's not a contest on who the better footballer was out of Redondo and Cabrini?
I can't believe what I'm reading here!
Interesting case here. It's important to differentiate in what he brought to the team as a captain, and what he brings to the team as a defensive midfielder playing against the greatest offensive midfielder ever. Here are some quotes relevant to this very subject by our (ex) resident Uruguayan. Remember, I'm just being the messenger.
Had to include that last sentence.
There's a lot more of that in the thread. To be clear this is anto with all his guns out in a draft thread, so take it whichever way you want to.
“Ronaldo is the hardest attacker I’ve ever had to face. He was impossible to stop.”
— Alessandro Nesta
“The worst experience I ever had was playing against Ronaldo when we faced Internazionale in the 1998 UEFA Cup Final in Paris. He’s an incredible player. I have watched that game on video so many times since then, trying to work out what I did wrong. We lost 3-0 but I don’t think now it was my fault. Ronaldo was simply unstoppable. He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
I know how high you rate him, and I don't share your view on his peak being second only to Matthäus and Rijkaard, I myself rate him much lower (well, not that much, probably), in the Scholes/Keane (yes, I've seen THE game) tier.
Cabrini is unlucky to be born Italian - with Maldini and Facchetti as your compatriots you're bound to be put in the next tier of greatness - although I don't think that he is much worse than Brehme or R.Carlos.
It's not math though and the fact that he's up against Garrincha while Redondo sits in the overcrowded midfield with Varela and Di Stefano makes Cabrini look worse, definitely
I miss him so much!Interesting case here. It's important to differentiate in what he brought to the team as a captain, and what he brings to the team as a defensive midfielder playing against the greatest offensive midfielder ever. Here are some quotes relevant to this very subject by our (ex) resident Uruguayan. Remember, I'm just being the messenger.
Had to include that last sentence.
There's a lot more of that in the thread. To be clear this is anto with all his guns out in a draft thread, so take it whichever way you want to.
To be clear this is anto with all his guns out in a draft thread, so take it whichever way you want to.
I'm not quite sure why you would feel the need to post the views of antohan during a match thread - he was that bias during draft games that he ended up quitting the Caf after his nonsense on the likes of Nordahl got exposed.
I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously in that respect but if people want to question the credentials of a player who came 13th in South America's Player of the Century then so be it.
In the same vein, here's a post on Monti which puts into his perspective his achievements in the World Cup - unlike the antohan post theres no ulterior motive here:
1. Redondo is a 'central holding player', not a box-to-box like Matthaus or a pure 'defensive player' like Rijkaard. Redondo is an elegant midfielder who used to play for Real Madrid. He isn't known for his battling qualities like a Roy Keane for example. Monti is rather a 'destroyer', a pure #6: his job is to target Di Stefano like he did at the WC by targeting players like Sindelar with success BTW.
2. I have acquired Cabrini, Vogts, Kohler and then... Ronaldo. So, would it mean I consider that Cabrini is a better player than Ronaldo?
I don't deny the quality of your players but you deny the quality of my tactical system (3-5-2) put in place to avoid 1 vs 1 battles on the wings. We won't have a lonely Cabrini against Garrincha-Brehme.
They play against the greatest striker in the History of the Game, the greatest central midfielder in the History of the Game, Maradona and the greatest Eastern European Footballer.
What does think the greatest centre back from Europe?
I think people have a tendency to focus too much on the WC winning version of Vogts: The player as such wasn't a purely defensive asset (a man marker, not least) to that extent.
But playing him as an actual wingback nevertheless seems like a stretch to me.
Anto's Varela comment is a good one. Players are sometimes great for very different reasons.
But playing him as an actual wingback nevertheless seems like a stretch to me.
Anto's Varela comment is a good one. Players are sometimes great for very different reasons.
Come on, Redondo was better than Keane and Scholes - let's be real here.
I rate Keane extremely highly (you can check previous posts) and he's only a notch behind Redondo in my estimation, but he was never as complete and didn't reach as high of a peak.
Not that it matters for this comparison anyway because Roy Keane is surely a better player than Cabrini.
I'm not sure what level of influence you expect Cabrini to have on the game, but Redondo was the anchor, playmaker and leader in Madrid team which was often woefully unbalanced and reliant on Redondo - ultimately he was the most important player in a team which won two Champions Leagues, which is something a player like Cabrini would never manage.
You're way off in terms of their influence on the game IMO.
Let's compare Kahn with Beckenbauer if you want
By kicking the shit out of him - yes.
Fair enough at the time, I suppose. Or - actually - it wasn't considered fair enough in '34 either. Many contemporary journos felt that the ref was less than 100%...unbiased.
Still, Monti was a great player - has to be considered as such. But he was a bloody dirty player too, by all accounts.
I don't see the problem but it wasn't me who started the discussion anyway.
The Keane / Redondo comparison is absolutely fine - no idea why you wouldn't compare those two.
The Cabrini comparison was raised when it was questioned who the weakest player on the pitch is.. Nothing strange in that question, it's a fair discussion point (but as I say, it wasn't started by me).
How do you explain this?
World Cup Participation : 1970, 1974, 1978 (19 Games)
1976 European Championship Runner-Up
1974 WC winner
1972 European Championship Winner
5 Times Bundesliga, 1 Time DFB-Pokal, 2 Times UEFA Cup, 1977 European Cup Runner-Up
1977 European Defender of The Year + 2 Times German Footballer Of The Year (1971, 1979) + German defender of the year 5 times
2 Times FIFA World Cup All-Star Team (1974, 1978) + Named in Bundesliga team.of the season 10 times
5th of Ballon D’or in 1975 (15th, 10th, 13th and 10th in 1971, 74, 76 and 77 respectively).
German defender of the year five times and was named in Bundesliga team.of the season ten times and was the most weekly appearances of a Bundesliga team of the season twice in 1971 and 1976. Additionally, Vogts was finished 5th of Ballan D’or in 1975 and also finished 15th, 10th, 13th and 10th Ballon'Dor in 1971, 1974, 1976 and 1977, respectively.
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I already surrendered my opinion as Cabrini is facing a more direct threat with less cover. Although if you're going to include Redondo's CL success you can also include Cabrini's World Cup (and being voted as the best young player in 1978) and him being a key part in one of the best defenses in history of the game.
Redondo was more complete than both Scholes and Keane and arguably more talented but I don't think that he reached his ability-wise peak and to compare him to the likes of Falcao (like you did quite a lot in your write-up) is a heresy in my opinion. I'd also have Bozsik, from what I've seen of him and Suarez as a clearly superior midfielders; Breitner, Didi.
I rate Scholes and Keane very highly though (obvious United bias), I also think that Voronin is a good comparison, especially stylistically, although you can say that I ridiculously overrate him and you'll probably be right here (only Streltsov, Yashin and Blokhin were more talented if we look at USSR footballers), van Hanegem (probably the best player out of those mentioned) and many others - you'd have your personal and tactical preferences but I don't think that you can say that Redondo really stands out in that group. Even Schuster, with his all-roundness and similar career trajectory.
Here we go again, D.
You misunderstand. "He wasn't a purely defensive asset" is a compliment: It means I disagree with your critics to some extent.
I do, however, find Vogts less plausible as an actual wingback (even though he was not a purely defensive asset).
Alright?
No one is questioning Vogts' ability as a footballer but he was primarily a defensive right back and you have him an attacking wing back role in a 3-5-2.
In a diamond or 3-5-2 the width traditionally comes from offensive wingbacks - someone like Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Brehme or Facchetti - whereas here you have Vogts. Ultimately it's a very narrow attack anyway and that's made more significant in the choice of right back.
I actually agree with Harms that Vogts was better technically than he gets credit for, but he's still not a natural wingback no matter what way you spin things.
Falcao is the best comparison for Redondo in terms of ability IMO so ultimately we rate him differently.
The part I want to respond to is this quoted part though - the difference is that Redondo was the most important and influential player in the team, whereas Cabrini never was.
Madrid won those Champions Leagues largely due to the ability of Redondo and his importance in that team can't be overstated, whereas for Trappatoni's Juve for instance you're looking at Platini, Scirea, Tardelli, Boniek, Gentile and Rossi who were all at least as imporant as Cabrini IMO.
Not at all. He's one of the greatest FBs in football history - nobody will deny that. And he was actually better offensively than he's often given credit for - because people tend to loook at his performances in the '74 World Cup as examples of his natural style (which is dubious - he was actually a more expansive player than that).
So, if anything I'm saying that he's even better than people think he is. But that still doesn't make him the most obvious choice for a wingback role - which is the problem here.
Erm, this is heading to a weird zone where Garrincha+Brehme and Best+Facchetti are being marginalized against 1 player flanks for some reason, on top of a couple scheme-fit errors from the opposition (Vogts being the most prominent one).
Being forced to highlight obvious things, but the best (or at worst, joint best) player on the park is getting overlooked.
Top Scorer in the Paulista for 9 consecutive years from 1957 to 1965, on top of being the Copa América and Copa Libertadores top scorer.
Record vs European teams:
200+ goals in 195 games.
There's a sense that in general his stature of often taken for granted because he's the most obvious choice. And for the argument about the opposition having the best Eastern European midfielder, best central midfielder etc. etc. - Di Stéfano is the best overall midfielder on the pitch - playing in his best role where he has the command of things; we have the two best wingbacks on the pitch in terms of their roles being suited to their strengths, arguably the best British player of all time, the second best Brazilian of all time, the best defender on the pitch, and the best goalkeeper on the pitch. Even in terms of qualitative stacking, it doesn't quite add up - and I don't quite see the appeal of a team that only goes centrally, and congests well guarded zones in the process.
Being forced to highlight obvious things, but the best (or at worst, joint best) player on the park is getting overlooked.
Top Scorer in the Paulista for 9 consecutive years from 1957 to 1965, on top of being the Copa América and Copa Libertadores top scorer.
Record vs European teams:
200+ goals in 195 games.
There's a sense that in general his stature of often taken for granted because he's the most obvious choice. And for the argument about the opposition having the best Eastern European midfielder, best central midfielder etc. etc. - Di Stéfano is the best overall midfielder on the pitch - playing in his best role where he has the command of things; we have the two best wingbacks on the pitch in terms of their roles being suited to their strengths, arguably the best British player of all time, the second best Brazilian of all time, the best defender on the pitch, and the best goalkeeper on the pitch. Even in terms of qualitative stacking, it doesn't quite add up - and I don't quite see the appeal of a team that only goes centrally, and congests well guarded zones in the process.
No argument there, but it's an odd way of looking at it - surely? How common is it that a left back is the most important and most influential player in the team? * Facchetti is probably the only truly compelling case in the history of the game - and even that is debatable, if we're talking strictly about who was THE most important player.
If we're looking at what could be called common consensus, Cabrini doesn't rank lower on an all-time LB list than Redondo does on the corresponding one for his position - and that strikes me as a more relevant comparison.
* We're talking about historically great teams, of course.
I prefer a player like Vogts instead of a more offensive player like Dani Alves. His job is mainly to defend & follow Best.
I don't play with a striker like Kocsis who do appreciate wingers or pure wing-backs.
But, offensively, he will do the job required. And on the right flank, Matthaus - Inter Milan version - would bring much more than Vogts.
Here, Matthaus would have the freedom to contribute offensively.
In the 80s, the 4-3-3 system was not the dominant tactical system imho
The question is: Do Maradona-Puskas-Ronaldo really need wingers to shine? The answer is no imho.
Although you can argue that, arrows or no arrows, Vogts will still be naturally limited to the defensive side of the game, as he and Bergomi are facing the most threatening and perfectly balanced left wing that is possible to assemble in a fantasy draft (some may sub Best with Ronaldo but that's about it).
By the way, I'm not sure that a more classic overlapping approach of Brehme on the right is the best fit for Garrincha - and iirc he rarely cut inside from the right like he did from the left. I may be wrong about that though. But I guess there is a little reasoning to keep a defensive right back when your opponent doesn't have any wingers.
By the way, I'm not sure that a more classic overlapping approach of Brehme on the right is the best fit for Garrincha - and iirc he rarely cut inside from the right like he did from the left. I may be wrong about that though. But I guess there is a little reasoning to keep a defensive right back when your opponent doesn't have any wingers.
Best/Facchetti are against Vogts/Bergomi. Vogts attacking output may be debatable here, but defensively they are rock solid. I don't Facchetti or Best will get any joy in this game. Brehme/Garrincha are up against Cabrini/Kohler. Your attack is better as Cabrini is a step below the rest of players in this equation...but with Scirea sweeping up...it kinda gets evened out imo. I think he is set up perfectly to counter your wide threat.
That's a fair point - and I agree to some extent.
Neither Maradona nor Ronaldo did their best work in settings where great, traditional wingers made any difference. Puskas probably did, to be fair, but you could certainly argue that his game - as such - shouldn't depend on it.
So, for me at least, it's not a question of criticizing the basic model you've gone for: It's much more a case of demanding perfection, or near-perfection, in every position - this being the last stage (there are no more possible upgrades) of an all-time draft. Vogts is an original choice, let's put it like that - he isn't an obvious WB choice. People will question that - it's inevitable.
Here's a classic Vogts - bursts forward in an inside-right zone, passes it to Kulik on the right and then gets in the position to tap the ball in (although Heynckes does it before him). Not a wing-back style at all, but he contributed offensively very often for Borussia
The goal from 1:20, the replay with Vogts' pass is from 1:35
Poor Facchetti btw
The goal from 1:20, the replay with Vogts' pass is from 1:35
Poor Facchetti btw
He has Neeskens in the bench. Neeskens as a wingback is a more interesting proposition. Obviously has experience playing RB and has the workrate and technical ability to own the flank. But still....
When Brehme pushes up to Cabrini's level, do you honestly think a physical marker like Kohler (who preferred to go against the likes of Van Basten - and other bigger opponents) is the right kind of player to defend against Garrincha? I could understand if there was someone like Maldini as the LCB - who was suited to containing that kind of elusive little player, but Kohler is not a custom fit for opponents like him. Unless I'm huuugely mistaken in my assessment of him as a stopper, that is. And it's also amusing that Scirea will simply 'sweep up' against a lurking Pelé (supposing Monti appropriately handles Di Stéfano) while Baresi and Passarella and Varela are deemed to lose to the opposition's central trio.
Good remark because Neeskens has started his carreer as a RB.
Yeah, I don't think he would be the welcome here as a RB
The idea is not to have Kohler against Garrincha OR Cabrini against Garrincha.
The idea is to have Cabrini + Kohler (who covers the latter) against Garrincha
How many CF do you have? And how many central defenders do I have ?
But then Brehme is completely unmarked when he pushes forward? That's what he's asking