The Doubles Draft - SF: Invictus/Theon vs Downcast

Who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
Theon said:
Explain why it doesn't? I can't believe we're having this conversation.

Di Stefano is playing in a side which will stretch the pitch significantly - that will create space.

There's literally nothing controversial there at all, it's really basic stuff.
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1 or 2 teams on the field? I'm not sure to understand your post :confused:
 
Downcast said:
1 or 2 teams on the field? I'm not sure to understand your post :confused:
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What don't you understand mate?

I think it's all explained in the previous posts and I don't think its too complex a point anyway - one team has a more diverse attack and greater width.

That will stretch the pitch an create space in central areas for Di Stefano.
 
Now Invictus had voted too :lol: A very fun game to follow, the best in the draft so far

@Edgar Allan Pillow are you around? We can do the final injury round in a few minutes
 
Theon said:
Explain why it doesn't? I can't believe we're having this conversation.

Di Stefano is playing in a side which will stretch the pitch significantly - that will create space.

There's literally nothing controversial there at all, it's really basic stuff.
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For one, you are talking about stretching a back 5. It's literally near impossible to have more defenders.

Best and Garrincha are world class dribblers and their operating area would be the same as Kohler and Bergomi...and I doubt defenders of their caliber would allow themselves to be dragged out wide. Even if such a thing happens, say, Garrincha gets behind Cabrini....it's obvious to let a cross in and Scirea/Bergomi sweep up Pele. That's why Kohler and Bergomi (esp with Vogts) getting pulled wide doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Downcast said:
If you want, I can say the chester campaign is 'a touch bizarre quite frankly'.

Aldo just explains his views...
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If I had targeted you, personally and specifically, with this Vogts business – over and over again – you'd have a point. That is not what happened here, though. I carried on a discussion with several different posters – about roughly the same thing. That happens a lot in these threads. It's nothing personal.

Anyway, you and me – we don't communicate very well, that's pretty obvious: Things seem to get misinterpreted, taken the wrong way - call it what you will. Which doesn't help. But again - it's not personal. It happens all the time around here - sometimes people simply aren't on the same wavelength. Both in general - and specifically when it comes to football (or drafts). It doesn't mean there's any campaign going on.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Best and Garrincha are world class dribblers and their operating area would be the same as Kohler and Bergomi...and I doubt defenders of their caliber would allow themselves to be dragged out wide. Even if such a thing happens, say, Garrincha gets behind Cabrini....it's obvious to let a cross in and Scirea/Bergomi sweep up Pele. That's why Kohler and Bergomi (esp with Vogts) getting pulled wide doesn't make any sense to me.
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I don't understand this.

If Garrincha beats Cabrini then of course Kohler would have to move out wide, you can't just let Garrincha have the ball and start dribbling to the penalty box?
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
We've all been there and done that. You really should read the "Zebec-gate" match between me and @Raees (I think). :lol:

Anyway, no hard feelings despite heated discussions. It's nothing personal.
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Meh, you all are way too civilised. These are hugs and kisses compared to what @Gio and anto have thrown at each other.

And then there was that ill fated tournament where I had to face Brwned in back to back KO games. 48 hours of walking against a storm of blades and knives. :D
 
Chesterlestreet said:
If I had targeted you, personally and specifically, with this Vogts business – over and over again – you'd have a point. That is not what happened here, though. I carried on a discussion with several different posters – about roughly the same thing. That happens a lot in these threads. It's nothing personal.

Anyway, you and me – we don't communicate very well, that's pretty obvious: Things seem to get misinterpreted, taken the wrong way - call it what you will. Which doesn't help. But again - it's not personal. It happens all the time around here - sometimes people simply aren't on the same wavelength. Both in general - and specifically when it comes to football (or drafts). It doesn't mean there's any campaign going on.
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Oh. The matter is closed :)

In fact, Theon said the behaviour of Aldo was strange or bizarre, which is not the case.

He has explained his views as you did. A comparison.
 
Downcast said:
In fact, Theon said the behaviour of Aldo was strange or bizarre, which is not the case.
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Aldo's approach to the game was much more one sided than Chesters - Chester spoke about one issue, which actually was controversial, whereas Aldo was just generally posting in your favour.

That said Aldo has been one sided in games before and I've previously had him arguing on my side, so I can't complain too much when it goes the other way.
 
Theon said:
Aldo's approach to the game was much more one sided than Chesters - Chester spoke about one issue, which actually was controversial, whereas Aldo was just generally posting in your favour.

That said Aldo has been one sided in games before and I've previously had him arguing on my side, so I can't complain too much when it goes the other way.
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Maybe because there were 2 managers + Chester criticizing my choices?
 
Theon said:
Aldo's approach to the game was much more one sided than Chesters - Chester spoke about one issue, which actually was controversial, whereas Aldo was just generally posting in your favour.

That said Aldo has been one sided in games before and I've previously had him arguing on my side, so I can't complain too much when it goes the other way.
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I do tend to be one sided and I usually vote early because of that.
 
Joga Bonito said:
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/alfredo-di-stéfano-career-match-reports.1994303/

Came across this thread on another site the other day and it had plenty of interesting anecdotes, quotes, stories etc about di Stefano. Not sure about the content's accuracy but I highly doubt anyone would go to those sort of lengths to fabricate stuff.
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Thanks for that link Joga, I need to read more on Di Stefano in general because even I though I have deployed him as a central playmaking midfielder plenty of times (like its here) it always feels to me like he is too deep in this set up. Whenever I have watched his games he always felt like a striker, a very versatile and someone who loves to drop really deep but a striker with a hunger for goals nonetheless. I remember in some of the games even Puskas playing deeper than him. But in the drafts he constantly gets sold as a de facto midfield general, no doubt he can do it to a very high degree but is that his best role ?

Didn't want to muddle an already heated draft debate with my general curiosity so didn't posted during the game.
 
Tuppet said:
Thanks for that link Joga, I need to read more on Di Stefano in general because even I though I have deployed him as a central playmaking midfielder plenty of times (like its here) it always feels to me like he is too deep in this set up. Whenever I have watched his games he always felt like a striker, a very versatile and someone who loves to drop really deep but a striker with a hunger for goals nonetheless. I remember in some of the games even Puskas playing deeper than him. But in the drafts he constantly gets sold as a de facto midfield general, no doubt he can do it to a very high degree but is that his best role ?
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Hmm, perhaps it has to do with the type of game that he is involved in though. For instance, if you see him play when Real were dominating, he'll probably function more as a second-striker as opposed to frequently dropping deep where he isn't really required all that much - Real's epic display against Frankfurt would be a great example. He does drop deep and helps in various phases but it is in the final third that he really shines, pulling the strings, linking-up play (all those one-twos and the trademark dummies with Gento & Puskas) and being a fantastic goal threat.



If you watch the game against Benfica in the 1962 final, where the game was more evenly poised, before Benfica gained the edge, you will see di Stefano's all-round game as a general come right to the fore. He was winning countless balls, squaring up against the impressive Benfica's midfield and even dropping into the FB areas occasionally. The incredible thing was that he wasn't overtly exerting effort, huffing and puffing about (ala Gerrard vs Milan 05) but rather just popping up in the right places just at the right time somehow and covering an insane amount of ground - keep in mind that it was a 36 year old di Stefano that we are talking about here. There were actually times where I had to rewind the footage a few times, to be certain that it was actually di Stefano and not del Sol or someone else whom I was confusing him with, due to the fairly grainy footage :lol:.

More so than his impressive/iconic games against Nice and Frankfurt, it was his game against Benfica, when Real's backs were against the wall, which was the most memorable performance for me. He could have been slightly more ruthless with a chance or two that came his way and could have potentially dealt better with Eusebio for the penalty incident (wasn't his fault but the FB's imo) but any midfield general would have been proud of that display.


http://footballia.net/matches/sl-benfica-real-madrid

There are other footage available of the same match on youtube and dailymotion but they are more grainy and this is the best quality footage available. You have to create an account but it's really simple though - just type in your email ID and just click on the confirmation link that they send you. A decent site which makes searching for footage of the player that you wish to watch, much easier.




Just found a compilation of his match performance. Watching that performance, you'd probably think he was playing as a holding defensive midfielder :lol:. Even then, I'd say that vid doesn't really do his performance justice as it doesn't contain his tracking, positioning and most importantly the command that he seemed to have in his zone/area of the pitch off the ball, that you'd generally associate with defensive greats/generals. Amazing player really.
 
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Joga Bonito said:
Regarding the lopsided asymmetrical discussion on the nature of Downcast's formation, there have been quite a few historical set-ups which have been severely lopsided with barely any width coming from one side etc. Brazil 1970 for example had Everaldo playing as a defensive LB, who barely ventured forward as a counter-balance to Carlos Alberto's more expansive and cerebral game on the right. Rivelino as an inside left, rarely provided width and you could probably count the number of times he ventured to the left touchline and put in a cross on one hand (one of them incidentally being the assist for Pele in the final, funnily enough). Tbf that side wasn't exactly a straightforward and an orthodox set-up and was fairly nuanced in terms of the players movement/interchanging of positions etc.

IIRC, Germany in the 1966 final also seemed to distinctly lack width on the right with Haller being more of a creative goalscoring central influence and Hottges being a purely defensive tucked in RB. Tbf they didn't really seem to have that much of width on the left either with Schnellinger frequently cutting into midfield but Held as an inside forward who cut in as an inside forward from the flank/channels probably helped - frequently exchanged position with Emmerich if I remember correctly.

For what it's worth, it's quite clearly a divisive issue with some buying the Vogts-Bergomi duo being a great counter-measure for that outrageous Facchetti-Best flank, whilst others are underwhelmed by that overly defensive duo in a back 5, esp with only Cabrini (who whilst being a great fit is no great shakes in this rarefied field) being capable of providing genuine width in that set-up. If I'm not wrong, harms used a similar set-up in his Manager Draft Final with Gentile, Bergomi, Kohler, Scirea and Cabrini. Although Gentile was in a man-marking role and his forward line had Baggio and Boniek.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manager-draft-final-harms-vs-edgar.398384/
(his initial formation pic isn't there for some reason)

My 2 cents - I don't think you need conventional touchline hugging wingers to stretch defenses, but most of Downcast's midfield and attacking cast are too centrally inclined for my liking. It was close deciding my vote mind,and I just think Downcast requires that tad bit more variety to his side - could be a more expansive RB or quite simply an inside forward who is comfortable out wide. Or perhaps even Neeskens instead of Monti, given that it's actually a back 5 and you don't really require a holding midfielder there (Monti was more well-rounded tbf but Neeskens as a RCM makes more sense in this set-up).

That forward trio of R9-Maradona-Puskas being supported by Matthäus is truly fantastic though. I initially thought Downcast might be going down the Italy 1982 route with Scirea, Bergomi, Cabrini and Conti in his side - but this is definitely a thought-provoking and an interesting set-up.
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Top contribution.

Yeah, a remake of Italy 82 with Conti could have been a good option but a boring one given the fact I have worked on the Zona Mista in the Remake Draft.

TBH, a more creative/controversial team would have made this game much more interesting in terms of potential subjects of discussions.

Something like 5 defenders + Tardelli + Matthaus + Neeskens + Maradona + Ronaldo.

Or something like 5 defenders + Tardelli/Neeskens + Matthaus + Maradona + Zico + Ronaldo.

I find boring players like Monti, Puskas & Varela.

Ish said:
@Downcast

Unlucky bud. You live to fight another draft!
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Cheers. It is your turn to fight another draft :)
 
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Awesome links, @Joga Bonito. Trawling Bigsoccer for info. is one of my favorite pastimes. :lol:

Gregoriak, RoyoftheRovers, PuckVanHeel, Comme, JamesBH11 - all top football posters.
Aldo said:
Yeah it is pretty good for that. Fair share of trolls and random people but a lot of time the level of insight is quite high, plus some posters go through tremendous effort to talk about a player. There's a dutch guy who wrote pages and pages of a thread listing every single goal and assist Cruyff ever made. :D
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Aye, PuckvanHeel: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/
 
Joga Bonito said:
http://footballia.net/matches/sl-benfica-real-madrid

There are other footage available of the same match on youtube and dailymotion but they are more grainy and this is the best quality footage available. You have to create an account but it's really simple though - just type in your email ID and just click on the confirmation link that they send you. A decent site which makes searching for footage of the player that you wish to watch, much easier.
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You should've shared it much sooner! :nono:
Looks brilliant
 
harms said:
You should've shared it much sooner! :nono:
Looks brilliant
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Just came across it recently myself when I was trying to find more footage of certain players. Think I'd stumbled upon it sometime ago but mistook it for one of those spam websites. It just makes life a lot easier but even then, there might be a few matches where the quality might be better on other platforms - youtube, dailymotion etc - but it's a nice and a convenient option to have nonetheless.
 
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