The Double Draft - QF: Invictus/Theon vs P-Nut

[P-Nut]

It's not that Pogba lacks specific attributes IMO, more that he hasn't put in anywhere near the same body of work on the big stage as the other names on the pitch here. When you've got Platini lighting up Euro '84, Di Stefano dominating multiple Eurpoean Cup finals, Keane's iconic performances vs Juve and for Ireland vs Holland etc, I think the onus is really on you here to give specific examples of big match performances from Pogba. He hugely impresses me whenever I catch Serie A (mostly highlights in fairness) but I haven't been particularly impressed with him in the latter stages of the CL, and of course he had a quiet Euros. I understand that you don't need him to be your playmaker here, but he even flits in and out of games on a more basic level IMO. Honestly I think I'd prefer a more proven 'water carrier' type for the task here, someone who might lack the immense natural talent of Pogba but with more big-match pedigree.

But that's the problem why aren't we judging this on what attributes they bring to the table? If we take your approach of big matches the same names would be regurgitated each and every draft and in the same positions. My approach is to look at the attributes of any player not just Pogba and see if they suit what I am trying to achieve.

What you're describing isn't a unique player type, though, is it? It's a box-to-box player of some kind. You can add specific elements to make him more unique – but that seems like a stretch unless you're going to claim that only a player who possesses exactly the same qualities can do a job for you. In which case one can easily counter it by asking whether this highly customized role (which can only be played by a 23 year old contemporary player) is preferable to a more generic box-to-box role (which can be played by any number of players who are, objectively, better than Pogba).

You want counter arguments beyond people saying that he isn't up to it – well, there you have one: You should have gone for an approach that allowed you to select someone other than Pogba, i.e. a finished box-to-boxer who wouldn't look out of place in an all-time draft.

The latter is what it comes down to, of course – there's no reason to pretend otherwise. Either you sell him as a perfect fit for a non-generic/customized role which you claim makes the most sense in this match – or you sell him as a player who does not look out of place in an all-time context. The first point is interesting but hard to buy (for me, at least) – the second one isn't plausible at all. If you think he's already an all-time level midfielder, you're overrating him in the extreme – as I think most would agree.

Yeah fair enough I'm glad you have come up with an argument. My reasoning for not wanting the generic water carrier such as Robson and Souness was the long range striking and the creativity that Pogba provides when compared to them. I am in no doubt Pogba isn't an all time great but these drafts surely aren't just about who has got the best players. It's about your tactics getting the best of the opposition and your players thriving.

My left b2b I want to have extra attacking qualities as a blend with my right b2b. Keane is a notoriously excellent defensive b2b. Pogba at the moment is displaying excellent attacking b2b traits. He's a modern version of the b2b role and not one you find dotting about much in the past so to find a GOAT one is near on impossible.

To cater for Pogba I obviously had the more defensive minded Keane combined with Hierro, a cdm that showed his defensive awareness by becoming an excellent cb.

As has already been mentioned Cole has gone up against greater than Garrincha in Cristiano and come out on top so that I don't see being a problem. Pogba drifting wide will help deal with the full backs presence whilst stopping the necessity for Ronaldo to track back. This leaves him in extremely dangerous areas once the attack breaks down.

 

[P-Nut]

Yes the fit is important. Hierro would be a better fit to deal with Nordahl: the two of them would just slug it out and it would be a classic physical battle. Gentile would just be swatted away by the big man - remember Vieri on steroids - and is more suited to the Ronaldinho gig out wide.

But that is why Hierro is in the team. There is no doubting he is a smart player. So he will occupy the CDM role until the ball begins to get shifted wide towards the byline. At this point he drops in and helps clog the space and helps win the aerial duels.

 

[P-Nut]

P-Nut developed an excellent side in the first round both in its quality and in the tactics deployed. That's a car crash of a transfer round though. With Platini, Keane and Hierro in the squad (never mind Vieira and Makelele to come back in), there was no reason for another central midfielder. Especially when all wonders of attacking talent were in the Woolies bargain bin, just yearning to be scooped up. There is probably at least 30-40 available players I'd rather see on the park rather than Pogba. And why is he even on that star-sprinkled turf while big-bollocked-Ballon-D'Or-winning-and-much-needed-width-offering Hristo Stoichkov is slumped frustrated on the bench?

I think Cole matches up well enough to Garrincha though. Obviously that's a tough gig for anybody, but I'd take him in that job over the majority of the left-backs in this pool (even an all-time pool). He has very few weaknesses defensively and, while his overall game is pretty shoddy compared to some of his all-time peers, he does a solid job here.

Still Invictus/Theon look like they mean business here. With that calibre on the flanks, big Nordahl will be lapping up the deliveries. The midfield trio is sound and the back five is just about there as well.

See my post a minute ago for why Pogba is there and why the width that Stoichkov would offer is not needed in this game is down to the role Ronaldo will play. I don't aim to dominate the ball. My tactics are all about quick transitions and counter attacking. Having Stoichkov in the team would limit Ronaldo to a single side and thus become predictable. Here he can pop up wherever the opponents full backs leave space. This gets a man renowned for his speed and beating a man running at Nesta and Puyol. Both great defenders but neither with anywhere near the pace needed to shackle Ronaldo.

 

[Ecstatic]

Wow the results

P-Nut is certainly a big fan of Pogba because - in the Remake draft - we had:

01) Tuppet (Inter 1964, 1-3-4-2) - 1. Ronaldo 2. Pirlo 3. Puyol
02) paulscholes18/Marty1968 (Germany 1972, 4-3-3) - 1. Nesta 2 Vidal 3 RVN
03) crappycraperson (Milan 1989, 4-4-2) - 1. Ronaldinho 2. Thiago Silva 3. Beckham
04) Downcast (Juve 1983, Lop-sided 4-4-2) - 1. Kaká 2. Shevchenko 3. Zambrotta
05) harms (Ajax 1995, 3-3-1-3) - 1. T. Müller 2. J. Martínez 3. Abidal
06) DavidG (River 1941, 3-2-5) - 1. T. Henry 2. Bale 3. Ivan Cordoba
07) Šjor Bepo (GER 1990, 3-5-2) - 1. Suarez 2. Ribery 3. Boateng
08) Gio (Hungary 1953, 3-2-1-4) - 1. Totti 2. Raul
09) Enigma_87 (ITA 1934, 2-3-2-3) - 1. Seedorf 2. Busquets
10) P-Nut0712/mazhar13 (BRA 1982, 4-2-2-2) - 1. Neymar 2. Pogba
11) Raees/anant (Austria 1932, 2-3-5) - 1. Schweinsteiger 2. Alaba
12) NoPace (Arsenal 1931, 3-2-2-3) - 1. Godin 2. Mascherano
13) Brwned (ENG 1966, 4-1-3-2) - 1. Rio Ferdinand 2. Gerrard
14) Kazi (BRA 1958, 4-2-4) - 1. Modrić 2. Vidic
15) EAP (Barca 1992, 3-4-3) - 1. Vieira 2. Xabi Alonso
16) MJJ/VivaJanuzaj (Dynamo 1975, 4-1-3-2) - 1.Lahm 2. Iniesta

The least we can say is the 'draft community' is not a big fan of Pogba.

P-Nut already knew it so he has the merit of following his convictions through to the end.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

But that's the problem why aren't we judging this on what attributes they bring to the table? If we take your approach of big matches the same names would be regurgitated each and every draft and in the same positions. My approach is to look at the attributes of any player not just Pogba and see if they suit what I am trying to achieve.

I agree very much with the basic point of view (as I take it). But if you want to shift the focus from “who's got the most powerful selection of GOATs” to “who's come up with the best tactical approach” there has to be restrictions in place as far as the pool goes – there's no other way. You need two evenly balanced teams in terms of pure player quality (or GOAT density, so to speak) – or, alternatively, you need to remove the GOATs from the equation.

Presently, there is no way you can realistically argue that any tactical device you can come up with will outweigh the presence of – clearly – greater players on the other side: Not unless the other fella has positively fecked up tactically – and that isn't the case here.

 

[Gio]

But that is why Hierro is in the team. There is no doubting he is a smart player. So he will occupy the CDM role until the ball begins to get shifted wide towards the byline. At this point he drops in and helps clog the space and helps win the aerial duels.

Yeah he's a good acquisition in that sense: no issues there.

See my post a minute ago for why Pogba is there and why the width that Stoichkov would offer is not needed in this game is down to the role Ronaldo will play. I don't aim to dominate the ball. My tactics are all about quick transitions and counter attacking. Having Stoichkov in the team would limit Ronaldo to a single side and thus become predictable. Here he can pop up wherever the opponents full backs leave space. This gets a man renowned for his speed and beating a man running at Nesta and Puyol. Both great defenders but neither with anywhere near the pace needed to shackle Ronaldo.

Stoichkov is a fantastic counter-attacking player as well, he'd be dynamite combining with Ronaldo, and would seriously limit the forward forays of Invictus/Theon's wing-backs. The weakest link in their defence is Puyol (relatively speaking) and you really want Ronaldo in about him. He's also got previous in giving Nesta a bit of a roasting so there's scope for him to be decisively influential here.

 

[P-Nut]

I agree very much with the basic point of view (as I take it). But if you want to shift the focus from “who's got the most powerful selection of GOATs” to “who's come up with the best tactical approach” there has to be restrictions in place as far as the pool goes – there's no other way. You need two evenly balanced teams in terms of pure player quality (or GOAT density, so to speak) – or, alternatively, you need to remove the GOATs from the equation.

Presently, there is no way you can realistically argue that any tactical device you can come up with will outweigh the presence of – clearly – greater players on the other side: Not unless the other fella has positively fecked up tactically – and that isn't the case here.

Hmm suppose that could be true. I still maintain that the attributes Pogba brings to the table combined with the tactical approach means he wouldn't look out of place in this game. As an aside have any of you watched the long Pogba video. That's all from one season and really does demonstrate why he'd excel here.

Yeah he's a good acquisition in that sense: no issues there.

Stoichkov is a fantastic counter-attacking player as well, he'd be dynamite combining with Ronaldo, and would seriously limit the forward forays of Invictus/Theon's wing-backs. The weakest link in their defence is Puyol (relatively speaking) and you really want Ronaldo in about him. He's also got previous in giving Nesta a bit of a roasting so there's scope for him to be decisively influential here.

And that is exactly what will happen here. Playing Stoichkov would as you said push the wing backs back which isn't what I want. I want them to go forward leaving Puyol and Nesta with Redondo trying to defend my counter attacks. Redondo is quality don't get me wrong but as a three defending against Platini, Ronaldo and Batistuta it's a massive mismatch that has been completely overlooked it seems.

 

[Invictus]

As has already been mentioned Cole has gone up against greater than Garrincha in Cristiano and come out on top so that I don't see being a problem.

IMO, the problem here is that a lot of the matchups don't work as: X kept Y under the craps, ergo he will keep Z under the wraps - because that leaves out a lot of minor details. Cristiano and Garrincha were very, very different type of wide players. I'd personally liken Garrincha's playing style to someone like Nani - unpredictable, evasive, a bit frustrating, mercurial and with incredible change of direction predicated on stealth and lower mass. Obviously, Garrincha was a vastly superior player to Nani, but you get the general picture. And Nani put Cole to the sword on multiple occasions (most notably in the 2011 league tie vs Chelsea).

Lawton: I've rarely seen anybody give Ashley Cole as difficult a time as Nani did!

http://talksport.com/radio/press-pa...e-difficult-time-nani-did#mjRD7deB0P2Wb41M.99

A bit like how Evra struggle vs Lennon despite stopping much better players. At his peak, Garrincha was almost impossible to mark because he stayed up after multiple challenges, and found ways to snake through given his determination and squat physique:



The problem here is that Cole is not only going to face the opponent of a lifetime in Garrincha, who was often marked by several defenders at once:

That imbalance in wider areas leaves the entire flank to the 'Black Marvel' - Andrade. Ditto on the left flank - where Ronaldinho will have Lahm tied up - leaving Facchetti completely unmarked - and that's a recipe for disaster, IMO - given Facchetti's stature in the game, especially in terms of his attacking play.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Is Pogba really better than Effenberg?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As far as the vote is concerned, let's not forget that Pogba comes on top of the GK here. That's two controversial choices in an all-time context - and the GK thing has become something people are now highly aware of (we'll see if it lasts - but in this draft the keepers have finally been paid some attention).

 

[P-Nut]

As far as the vote is concerned, let's not forget that Pogba comes on top of the GK here. That's two controversial choices in an all-time context - and the GK thing has become something people are now highly aware of (we'll see if it lasts - but in this draft the keepers have finally been paid some attention).

Yeah I can accept the keeper being abused and a reason for a defeat. It was a case of ensuring my midfield was up to scratch after losing 2 and having to replace a legacy aswell. Then the right back needed upgrading as Maicon would have been slaughtered here as well. Gk being 20m minimum there was no chance of me grabbing one.

 

[Enigma_87]

Is Pogba really better than Effenberg?

Very different players. I get what P-nut is trying to achieve here and probably Pogba is one of his favs, however it was bound to get a lot of scrutiny. Pogba is capable of putting some exciting performances but he's too raw and inconsistent at the moment in terms of all time, even current generation, status.

 

[P-Nut]

Very different players. I get what P-nut is trying to achieve here and probably Pogba is one of his favs, however it was bound to get a lot of scrutiny. Pogba is capable of putting some exciting performances but he's too raw and inconsistent at the moment in terms of all time, even current generation, status.

It's not the fact he's one of my favourites that I picked him for. It's the qualities he brings to the table when looking at the other options available. None of them meet the requirements like Pogba does. It really is that simple.

My main wish is that everyone had the time to watch the long Pogba video. That would stop a lot of these questions regarding his ability in this company as you can see it would work exactly as I described in my tactics. Unfortunately I understand not everyone has 30 mins to watch a video, but I'll stand by my decision and it's something I won't change to win a match. I'd rather find players with the attributes perfectly suited to my tactics than pick a big name to guarantee votes. No doubt I'll lose a lot of draft matches due to my stubbornness but finding niche players to fit my tactics is the reason I enjoy these drafts.

 

[Physiocrat]

Redondo is quality don't get me wrong but as a three defending against Platini, Ronaldo and Batistuta it's a massive mismatch that has been completely overlooked it seems.

Your front three is awesome and will cause a lot of problems. Your use of Ronaldo makes sense allowing him to roam and using Batigol as a focal point. My main issues were Pogba's relative quality, his tactical fit is great, and goalie.

 

[P-Nut]

Your front three is awesome and will cause a lot of problems. Your use of Ronaldo makes sense allowing him to roam and using Batigol as a focal point. My main issues were Pogba's relative quality, his tactical fit is great, and goalie.

Exactly his tactical fit is great. Cole will be able to deal with Garrincha. When he does get beaten Hierro will have dropped in to aid in the aerial battles. Pogba is sound enough defensively to help Cole by dealing with Invictus' fullback.

So the question I have is where are the goals coming from for Invictus? The middle is clogged by a DM and two box to box players. The wide threat is dealt with by Hierro dropping in deep. My counter attacks have had no real denial of the problems they will cause, however I'm on the end of a drubbing it's crazy!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah I can accept the keeper being abused and a reason for a defeat. It was a case of ensuring my midfield was up to scratch after losing 2 and having to replace a legacy aswell. Then the right back needed upgrading as Maicon would have been slaughtered here as well. Gk being 20m minimum there was no chance of me grabbing one.

In retrospect both you and Raees would have benefited from buying that GK, though - in fact, it should have been top priority. But then again, the fact that people have - to this degree - taken the GK into consideration when voting is unprecedented.

So, hindsight and all that.

Anyway, luck plays a prominent part in this draft. Getting lucky/unlucky with who you lose is a main feature of the draft itself - and it seems that what most will do in that respect is simply to replace the lost star/GOAT quality as best they can. This too contributes to keeping the focus on - precisely - the GOATs, which in its turn makes it even more difficult to argue purely tactical points when the basic criticism is that some of your players simply should have been...greater.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

My main wish is that everyone had the time to watch the long Pogba video. That would stop a lot of these questions regarding his ability in this company as you can see it would work exactly as I described in my tactics. Unfortunately I understand not everyone has 30 mins to watch a video, but I'll stand by my decision and it's something I won't change to win a match. I'd rather find players with the attributes perfectly suited to my tactics than pick a big name to guarantee votes. No doubt I'll lose a lot of draft matches due to my stubbornness but finding niche players to fit my tactics is the reason I enjoy these drafts.

No it would not because most of us watched Pogba a lot of times, some of us even watched him at youth level. The fact he dominated the league means feck all because the league is terrible, i know because i watched a fair bit of Serie A games last season. And in the end its a youtube video, current Rooney can look like a class player if you focus only on good things he does. To be fair most of us do the similar things with gifs but in most cases its when there is a lack of footage for someone and there it is where older players get it easier then modern ones(in this case its irrelevant because Pogba really isnt good enough and he isnt a victim of underrating modern players).
My advice would be that you find a match compilation where he showed those qualities that you need, that way you would have a much stronger case.

 

[P-Nut]

In retrospect both you and Raees would have benefited from buying that GK, though - in fact, it should have been top priority. But then again, the fact that people have - to this degree - taken the GK into consideration when voting is unprecedented.

So, hindsight and all that.

Anyway, luck plays a prominent part in this draft. Getting lucky/unlucky with who you lose is a main feature of the draft itself - and it seems that what most will do in that respect is simply to replace the lost star/GOAT quality as best they can. This too contributes to keeping the focus on - precisely - the GOATs, which in its turn makes it even more difficult to argue purely tactical points when the basic criticism is that some of your players simply should have been...greater.

This is pretty much advocating a line up of 11 names though and just deciding who would win that way instead of tactics.

 

[P-Nut]

No it would not because most of us watched Pogba a lot of times, some of us even watched him at youth level. The fact he dominated the league means feck all because the league is terrible, i know because i watched a fair bit of Serie A games last season. And in the end its a youtube video, current Rooney can look like a class player if you focus only on good things he does. To be fair most of us do the similar things with gifs but in most cases its when there is a lack of footage for someone and there it is where older players get it easier then modern ones(in this case its irrelevant because Pogba really isnt good enough and he isnt a victim of underrating modern players).
My advice would be that you find a match compilation where he showed those qualities that you need, that way you would have a much stronger case.

This isn't some 5 minute video that people throw together. It's 28 minutes from one season. It's not easy to find that and it doesn't focus solely on his assists and goals it shows his all round game. I agree about the older players getting a bit more slack but that's something that shouldn't be happening but as I said it's something that I won't change just to get votes.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

This is pretty much advocating a line up of 11 names though and just deciding who would win that way instead of tactics.

It's not as simple as that. A GOAT heavy team will be very difficult to beat with anything but another GOAT heavy team. They aren't just names - they're actually the best players in football history, as per common consensus.

This is realism, actually - even in a fantasy context. If your players are inferior, you'll struggle - regardless of how brilliant a tactician you happen to be. Football isn't that complicated. You generally need very good players to defeat very good players - the tactical advantage comes into play in matches where the teams are on roughly the same level. Where there's a clear discrepancy, it's not likely that tactical brilliance will triumph - again, unless the opponent does something positively idiotic.

 

[harms]

I don't see a problem with Ronaldinho, Di Stefano and Garrincha playing together and all three have played in star studded attacks before - in my opinion it's an issue that gets overplayed on here and I don't see too much of an overlap in their roles or position anyway.

I'm not talking about the star status but about their personal playing styles.
Garrincha is probably the "worst" example of a ball-hungry player, with all the stories about him dribbling all the way forward, turning back and dribbling all the way back just for the sake of it or about their conflict with Didi regarding Garrincha holding the ball too long.
Di Stefano is the most dominant out of the top-5 GOATs and all the play goes through him, no other way around it, he is the center of everything.
Ronaldinho is probably the less "hungriest" out of them three and I can see him playing a second fiddle in terms of demanding the ball, but not with both Garrincha and Di Stefano here. If you wanted to keep both of them and continue with this formation successfully, I would've picked Boniek-esque player on the left to at least try and even out the team balance

For example Cruyff or Pele, who are equals or even better than those mentioned before doesn't have the same obsession with the ball and can be used in such systems without any problems. With your trio only Ronaldinho will be making off the ball runs to an extent and there will be conflict between Di Stefano and Garrincha because their game was so self-centered (not egoistic though, I hope that I managed to explain the difference).


As I said, in this particular game it isn't an issue as the gap between the teams is too big, but in a closer game I would've counted it as a minus.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

This isn't some 5 minute video that people throw together. It's 28 minutes from one season. It's not easy to find that and it doesn't focus solely on his assists and goals it shows his all round game. I agree about the older players getting a bit more slack but that's something that shouldn't be happening but as I said it's something that I won't change just to get votes.

I realize its a 30 minute video but still, its shows you only the good staff and you can pretty much create that kind of video for every player out there. For example, Stones didnt have a good last year but i bet someone can create a video where he looks like a modern day Beckenbauer. Its ok when you post that kind of video for Fenomeno so we can remind ourself how good he really was because he has proven his class and status in All-time drafts/lists but when you are building a case for someone who in most cases wouldnt be there, that doesnt work.
I hope you dont change, build teams for your pleasure not for the drafting mass

 

[Ecstatic]

I realize its a 30 minute video but still, its shows you only the good staff and you can pretty much create that kind of video for every player out there. For example, Stones didnt have a good last year but i bet someone can create a video where he looks like a modern day Beckenbauer. Its ok when you post that kind of video for Fenomeno so we can remind ourself how good he really was because he has proven his class and status in All-time drafts/lists but when you are building a case for someone who in most cases wouldnt be there, that doesnt work.
I hope you dont change, build teams for your pleasure not for the drafting mass

That is why, I prefer the videos like 'Pogba Vs Germany/Albania' so that we can see both the pros & cons during 90 minutes

 

[Physiocrat]

That is why, I prefer the videos like 'Pogba Vs Germany/Albania' so that we can see both the pros & cons during 90 minutes

Me too. That said they are limiting in the sense that you can't see much of his off the ball work or how well he performs relative to everyone else. That said for our purposes they're the best thing out there next to full games.

 

[Ecstatic]

Me too. That said they are limiting in the sense that you can't see much of his off the ball work or how well he performs relative to everyone else. That said for our purposes they're the best thing out there next to full games.

I agree.

 

[P-Nut]

Hmm I can see the post you are all making with regards to the game clips instead of season clips. My point is everyone knows Pogba's weaknesses as he is so widely known. The problem is a lot get caught up with the narrative on some players such as Pogba.

It's a common thought at the moment that Pogba isn't great defensively, this is down to him performing better at the attacking side of the game, however what he video shows is that he is in fact very defensively sound and has a lot of clips of him tracking back and winning possession. That's not to mention the stat doing the rounds previously of him winning the ball back in the attacking third more than anyone else in the top 5 league's. That to me doesn't signify a defensively weak player, rather just someone that excels in his attacking work.

Since this game is now lost we may aswell discuss this at length. I am yet to see a definitive reason why the attributes Pogba possesses make him such a mistake match for this stage. I asked earlier for examples of players that could perform the task I have asked of Pogba in my system just as well as him. A couple of names were banded about, none of them were agreed upon and not just by myself.

It's being made out as though Pogba is going to cost me this game when in reality that's not really possible.

It's been argued both ways again not only by myself that Cole could handle his own against Garrincha. That would leave Pogba's defensive work being to cover Facchetti. His attributes more than stand up to the test of defending against a full back albeit an excellent one.

The suggestions of Robson and Souness don't offer the same attacking impetus that Pogba does so if they were sufficient in an attacking sense then so is Pogba. He has that moment of magic that those players just don't possess.

So again I ask how does Pogba cost me this game?

 

[harms]

none of them were agreed upon and not just by myself.

Who else agreed with you if you don't mind me asking?
Branding Robson as a water-carrier was simply wrong btw

 

[Pat_Mustard]

But that's the problem why aren't we judging this on what attributes they bring to the table? If we take your approach of big matches the same names would be regurgitated each and every draft and in the same positions. My approach is to look at the attributes of any player not just Pogba and see if they suit what I am trying to achieve.

Because they have to have shown that they can deliver on those attributes at the requisite level, and the level here is against the greatest players ever. To take an extreme example, you can't pick Kris Boyd in one of these drafts and pitch him as a goal poacher-supreme, as its massively unlikely that just being prolific in the modern day SPL will cut the mustard in terms of credentials. Its all about context.

We picked him (EDIT: Pogba not Boyd!) in the recent post-1960 Serie A/Bundesliga/La Liga Draft but didn't play him, which I regret now. That would have been a good level to pitch him at in terms of what he's shown so far, which is essentially a few tremendous seasons at domestic level at by far the most dominant team in a fairly weak league, and a much less convincing showing on the bigger stages. In an all-time context, he's just not there yet, and I dont see how you can reasonably give him the benefit of the doubt versus the likes of Redondo. I think he can reach that sort of all-time level, but he's at least a few years away and there's no guarantees he ever will.

 

[P-Nut]

Who else agreed with you if you don't mind me asking?
Branding Robson as a water-carrier was simply wrong btw

I didn't brand him as a water carrier that was the person who agreed with me although I don't remember who at the moment without scanning back through and I'm on my phone. Robson for me was an excellent player but in no way has he ever shown offensively like Pogba has.

Because they have to have shown that they can deliver on those attributes at the requisite level, and the level here is against the greatest players ever. To take an extreme example, you can't pick Kris Boyd in one of these drafts and pitch him as a goal poacher-supreme, as its massively unlikely that just being prolific in the modern day SPL will cut the mustard in terms of credentials. Its all about context.

We picked him in the recent post-1960 Serie A/Bundesliga/La Liga Draft but didn't play him, which I regret now. That would have been a good level to pitch him at in terms of what he's shown so far, which is essentially a few tremendous seasons at domestic level at by far the most dominant team in a fairly weak league, and a much less convincing showing on the bigger stages. In an all-time context, he's just not there yet, and I dont see how you can reasonably give him the benefit of the doubt versus the likes of Redondo. I think he can reach that sort of all-time level, but he's at least a few years away and there's no guarantees he ever will.

I take your point that he isn't as good a player as them yet that is no problem. But to deem him completely put of place is too heavy for me. By that reckoning no player that isn't coming towards the end of their career should be considered as they haven't shown it for long enough. And again maybe he won't get the better of Redondo but will him not having a massive impact offensively cause me to lost the game? No or at least it shouldn't when you consider the other attacking options I have on the pitch.

 

[Ecstatic]

Pogba is still young - 23 years - but won't be 'so ridiculous' here. He has played a key role in the successes of the Juve

Club
Juventus

• Serie A: 2012–13, 2013–14, 2014–15, 2015–16
• Coppa Italia: 2014–15, 2015–16
• Supercoppa Italiana: 2013, 2015; Runners-up: 2014
• UEFA Champions League Runners-up: 2014–15

International
France U-20

• FIFA U-20 World Cup: 2013

France

• UEFA European Championship Runners-up: 2016

Individual

• FIFA U-20 World Cup Golden Ball: 2013
• Golden Boy: 2013
• Serie A Team of the Year: 2013–14, 2014–15
• FIFA World Cup Best Young Player: 2014
• Bravo Award: 2014
• UEFA Team of the Year: 2015
• FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2015
• Serie A Top Assist-provider: 2015–16

 

[harms]

Robson for me was an excellent player but in no way has he ever shown offensively like Pogba has.

You know that you're talking about a guy who in two seasons scored 1 less than Pogba's career total, right?

 

[Ecstatic]

He is just one player like the others.

More interesting to discuss about tactics.

We can move on and talk about the other players

 

[Ecstatic]

You know that you're talking about a guy who in two seasons scored 1 less than Pogba's career total, right?

The career of Pogba is not finished

 

[P-Nut]

You know that you're talking about a guy who in two seasons scored 1 less than Pogba's career total, right?

Yeah I do but his play style wasn't as expansive and he played in a completely different set up. This is the point I made in my opening post. Each and every player on my team will be playing their natural game. With Robson I would have had to change tact to get him closer to the box. He also wouldn't cover that left flank as well as Pogba does.

 

[harms]

I didn't brand him as a water carrier that was the person who agreed with me although I don't remember who at the moment

My reasoning for not wanting the generic water carrier such as Robson and Souness was the long range striking and the creativity that Pogba provides when compared to them

 

[harms]

The career of Pogba is not finished

Absolutely irrelevant, his level in this draft is based on his actual career and not on predictions. I expect him to match Robson's goalscoring output in the future, but right now he is miles behind

 

[P-Nut]

Oh my bad then. Was a definite mistake though and my reasoning for not wanting Robson is explained above.

 

[P-Nut]

Spoiler: Pogba long range

Robson isn't capable of this. End of story he hasn't ever done it and these are the moments of magic I am talking about. He would need to be closer to the box to be able to play his natural game.

Seriously this discussion on Pogba has gone on long enough now. One player has decided the game and people seem to be decided on the outcome regardless of tactics. No point keep going round in circles. I was hoping people would have an open mind but the decision that certain players aren't good enough no matter the role/tactics are concrete. Wrap it up!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

There is a reason why Juventus fielded Brio and Italy Collovati and not going with the "perfect" Scirea - Gentile combo (which became perfect post-factum). Gentile's strength is man-marking first and foremost, and a specific one - he targeted short agile players in the mould of Maradona, Zico and Platini. In that (if we don't discuss the change of the rules) he was arguably the greatest ever.

As a center back in back 4 I don't see his use here. Baresi was more physical and tough than Scirea, for example, so he doesn't need the additional "hardness" next to him, he has enough of it himself.

That's just harsh and I don't agree at all.

1980 European Championship Team of the Tournament had Scirea & Gentile.
1982 World Cup All Star Team had Gentile and Collovati.

280 games for Juventus and 70 games for Italy...and you boil it down to a couple where he man-marked famous opponents, and that soo short ones? Yes, it was his speciality and they did employ it but just considering him just a man-marker and a not so good CB otherwise is a bad disservice to him.

I do give importance to the fact that he has never earned a red card. 1974 World Cup had 5 red cards, 1978 had 3 and 1982 had 5 again...in that tournament alone. So the fact that rules were lax doesn't hold that much water..since if he was a simple brute, it's not conceivable that his style of play did not earn any.

http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/p6_66_885_lessons-in-calcio-claudio-gentile.html#.V6o0uflriT8

Trap employed Gentile in the left-back position in spite of him being naturally right-footed. Gentile had no problem adapting as he became adept with his left foot as well. Few years later, Antonio Cabrini was introduced into the Juventus squad. Cabrini took over the left-back spot and Gentile slotted into the right-back position with utmost ease. In those days, full-backs did not assume much attacking duties and used to mark the players entering their zone. Even then, Gentile would sometimes venture forward to successfully take part in attack. He played in that position for several years before shifting to center-back position where he truly shone.

The zonal defense system was being introduced along with the man-marking system that characterized Catenaccio. Gentile was adept at both systems, but was feared for his man-marking skills.

 

[Ecstatic]

I expect him to match Robson's goalscoring output in the future, but right now he is miles behind

Let's talk about stats:

Pogba - 23 years - has scored 39 goals in his career
Robson - player of WBA at the age of 23 years - did score 30 goals (including 3 goals with WBA in the 2nd division).
Zidane - at the age of 23 - was playing the Intertoto Cup with Bordeaux.

Of course, I don't see any similarities between these 3 players.

Of course, Pogba has to be judged based on his past performances and not on his potential.