Cheers Pat 
The Double Draft: FINALS - harms vs Invictus/Theon
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Don't think that doubting that he will effectively neutralize Messi (which is almost impossible) is the same as portraying him as Carlos. He had some off moments against smaller dribblers (I guess it's mainly because of the center of gravity thing that I mentioned earlier), but overall he is fantastic.
The standard half roles changed with the introduction of the W-M, though. With the much more static game of old, the halves in the 2-3-5 defended against the opposition wingers (their main defensive function) and generally operated more out wide than centrally - whereas the Duncan style halves of the post-WM era can be translated without too much trouble to central midfielders (ranging from destroyers to playmakers).
So, considering a standard half in the pre-WM era as a wingback of sorts isn't unreasonable as such.
Andrade was an exceptional player, though - he wasn't a standard half, he dominated to an unusual degree and had a much more direct impact offensively (using traits normally associated with purely offensive players).
Great final. Both teams were excellent, superb arguments on both sides too.
That's the way I look at it too.
Masopust: "We're even now"
Zito and Pele after the game
Nilton Santos comforts Garrincha after a sublime defensive performance by him
Thanks for the game, @Invictus, @Theon, sometimes the discussion went sideways but it was still nice.
Cheers for hosting the draft, @Edgar Allan Pillow
Indeed it's a bit too subjective for my liking but there's nothing much we can do about it.
Precisely CR7 is admittedly rather reliant on service, but harms side doesn't rely on one primary playmaker or facilitator for Ronaldo to shine. I've already made this point
It doesn't only have to be just Messi's passes over the top of the defense to the left flank, but it could very well be a cross from Cafu, a lay-off from van basten or an incisive long ball/through ball from one of Suarez/Masopust/N.Santos. There's a plethora of creativity flowing through harms's side.
Wanted the game to finish before I addressed this issue but I think Facchetti for all his qualities, is rather overrated on here relatively. I don't disagree with people rating him highly and he was the complete package - cracking defender, attacking influence and a formidable leader to boot. However, I definitely don't think he is markedly better than his peers - mainly Nilton. Which is seemingly the impression that I happen to get whilst reading about him etc - remember anto once labelled him "think Maldini but much better going forward and clocking 0:11 in 100m". Probably tongue in cheek but nevertheless.
For instance, I'd give the edge to Facchetti defensively over N.Santos but offensively, the Brazilian was better, once again marginally, imo - due to the cerebral and playmaking qualities he brought to the table. And overall there really isn't much to separate them as players or in either phases.
Heh, I was of the opinion too, but after watching Brazil 1958/62 comprehensively it made me question that view altogether, or at least appreciate the fact that it's not so black and white and Nilton was arguably as balanced as Facchetti. Watching those WC games, you'd struggle to see N.Santos going upfield and being as attacking as he is always made out to be.
I recall having an interesting convo with Annah in one of the older drafts where N.Santos's gameplay was under the spotlight.
joga said:
I think this quote particularly speaks volumes - “Football has changed and it’s a big business today, much bigger than it was in my day. But I don’t envy today’s fullbacks for the money they make. I envy them for the freedom they’ve got to attack.”.
@Physiocrat who I think has also watched extensive footage of that Brazilian vintage would probably also concur with me in this matter.
Anyway, great game @harms @Invictus @Theon . Couldn't differentiate either teams and chickened out of voting but fantastic final nonetheless.
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Cheers.
Yeah pretty disappointing because I thought we had a better team, but never mind.
True but when I said that I meant Messi is going to be the primary source of creativity there. That was the reason I voted for him in the SF, the tandem of those two and I didn't mean he was the ONLY creative presence, of course not, both teams are littered with plethora of options to score.
I don't think so either. Just like the earlier discussion about Figueroa and Baresi, with players at that level you have to concentrate on what qualities they bring forward rather than overall comparisons. We can all agree that Maldini, Facchetti and Nilton Santos are the top three left backs of all time, and there isn't much between them. However they all have their own qualities. Maldini's tackling is the best of the three but he was never as fast as Facchetti or a playmaker like Nilton, for example. There would be around 15-20 parameters on which we can mark them and all three will come on top on various ones there. In this game, I highly value the qualities Facchetti brings to the game against his opponent, Messi, such as defensive IQ, reading of the game, pace and athleticism, etc. He may not be making crunching tackles on him or man marking him but out of the three I mentioned, I would have Facchetti ahead of the other two when it comes to curbing the creative input of a player while being toe to toe throughout the game. That's where I would trust Facchetti to make an impact in this game. Nilton's an incredible intelligent player himself but his playing style is more about offensive IQ and playmaking, and not so much reading the game as carefully as a sweeper would, and it isn't a coincidence that Facchetti performed the role of a sweeper when required.
Fair enough, I'd definitely have Maldini above the other two in this regard, but we aren't really in disagreement over anything significant.
Just to add on, I've seen some remarkable displays of man-marking by Facchetti which Nilton wouldn't have been able to carry out and I can understand the rationale behind why you'd think Facchetti would be the relatively better 'toe-to-toe' defender. However, I'd say Nilton's reading of the game and general defensive nous was more or less on par with Facchetti's, it's just the Italian's fairly impeccable catenaccio forged man-marking game which gives him the edge. Just as how Nilton's cerebral qualities meant I'd give the edge to him offensively.
Was just taking a peek at the World XIs by major magazines, FAs to see who would be the most prevalent LB of all three and it I was taken aback by the lack of Facchetti in any of them.
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wrldallt.html
Esp the one by the Italian FA and heh, they have Jose Andrade at RB. And the FIFA World Cup All-Time Team (1993/94) not having Maradona in their side, FFS
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I like this oneFair enough, I'd definitely have Maldini above the other two in this regard, but we aren't really in disagreement over anything significant.
Was just taking a peek at the World XIs by major magazines, FAs to see who would be the most prevalent LB of all three and it I was taken aback by the lack of Facchetti in any of them.
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wrldallt.html
Esp the one by the Italian FA and heh, they have Jose Andrade at RB. And the FIFA World Cup All-Time Team (1993/94) not having Maradona in their side, FFS
Yashin - Baresi, Beckenbauer, Paolo Maldini - Cruijff, Platini, Van Basten - Gerd Müller, Pelé, Di Stéfano, Maradona
Beautifully balanced
@Joga Bonito
I'm in broad agreement with your N Santos comments. He seems to be a similar case to Marzolini- attacking at club level but at international level rather conservative. Unfortunately international level is where most of the footage is.
I'm in broad agreement with your N Santos comments. He seems to be a similar case to Marzolini- attacking at club level but at international level rather conservative. Unfortunately international level is where most of the footage is.
ffs
Which Andrade / Cafu comparisons? Brehme was playing at right back and I have never compared Cafu to Andrade.
If you read the thread I actually said that Cafu was superior to Brehme - And we obviously thought that Brehme was a better right back than Andrade considering we benched him for Brehme.
Really not sure what you are trying to get at there.
These would have helped with the Ronaldo discussions though:
He averages 1,44 successful dribbles per game. Yes, I would say that makes him not a very good dribbler (Messi for comparison). Plus he wastes a ridiculous amount of shots
Never mind, I stupidly confused games and players, sorry!
Brehme was playing at right back and I have never compared Cafu to Andrade.
If you read the thread I actually said that Cafu was superior to Brehme - And we obviously thought that Brehme was a better right back than Andrade considering we benched him for Brehme.
Really not sure what you are trying to get at there.
These would have helped with the Ronaldo discussions though:
Yeah, I was surprised you haven't used them especially seeing that you used my Baresi quote (rightfully)