The Double Draft: FINALS - harms vs Invictus/Theon

[MJJ]

Invictus/Theon team has too many players who will hog the ball, cant see di stefano,best,garrincha and pele working well together whereas ronaldo and van basten will suit messi a lot more.

Voted harms despite not being a big fan of his midfield (probably due to me under-rating zito)

 

[harms]

Because Love was sold to Sunderland, mate!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Invictus/Theon team has too many players who will hog the ball, cant see di stefano,best,garrincha and pele working well together whereas ronaldo and van basten will suit messi a lot more.

Voted harms despite not being a big fan of his midfield (probably due to me under-rating zito)

Well, I'm the opposite on the last part - I think his midfield is superb and would fit that attacking trio very well too.

But I agree with the rest - the ball hogging argument has some merit. And it's not just the fact that these players are at their most dangerous when on the ball/in a position where they can influence the match through trickery and creativity - it's just as much that they simply aren't very good (in this context) off the ball. You'd ideally want more of a balance there - harms' has that to a greater extent: Whether Ronaldo/Messi/Van Basten would actually dovetail all that smoothly is still an open question for me, but within that trio you have two players who excel at making themselves available - that can't be denied. A large part of what makes them dangerous is how they move about without the ball - that's important, for obvious reasons.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

hmm strange, i find that invictus and theon front 4 have a great balance and would work very nice together....the only thing that is "missing" to have a perfect balance is Garrincha, would like to have a lesser hog in there but other then that its pretty much perfect.

 

[MJJ]

Well, I'm the opposite on the last part - I think his midfield is superb and would fit that attacking trio very well too.

But I agree with the rest - the ball hogging argument has some merit. And it's not just the fact that these players are at their most dangerous when on the ball/in a position where they can influence the match through trickery and creativity - it's just as much that they simply aren't very good (in this context) off the ball. You'd ideally want more of a balance there - harms' has that to a greater extent: Whether Ronaldo/Messi/Van Basten would actually dovetail all that smoothly is still an open question for me, but within that trio you have two players who excel at making themselves available - that can't be denied. A large part of what makes them dangerous is how they move about without the ball - that's important, for obvious reasons.

Like I said its probably due to me under-rating zico, if he had someone like rijkaard (very good and physical defensive mid) in there wouldnt think twice about voting for him.

Exactly, I dont think there are(or should be) any questions about ronaldo and messi playing together. One does his best work off the ball, the other on the ball. The only question is whether Van Basten can fit with the two, given his all round qualities and the general characteristics of the strikers that both have played with I think the trio will work well.

 

[Theon]

I dont think there are(or should be) any questions about ronaldo and messi playing together. One does his best work off the ball, the other on the ball. The only question is whether Van Basten can fit with the two, given his all round qualities and the general characteristics of the strikers that both have played with I think the trio will work well.

You're looking far too much into it quite frankly and I'm not sure why you think having four attackers of that calibre is such a problem, given the fact that they all play in different positions and that only one of them is an actual playmaker.

Best being a great dribbler on the left wing doesn't lessen Pele's chances of scoring a goal, the same way it didn't lessen Denis Law's, and it doesn't prevent Di Stefano running things in the middle, the same way it didn't prevent Bobby Charlton.

In fact all that dribbling ability will do for Pele is inevitably create space when defenders get dragged out wide to deal with Best in possession - that's one of the benefits you get from having great forwards attacking from all directions.

In terms of Pele and Garrincha they didn't just manage to play together, despite both being top individual talents - they actually never lost a football match. And that's whilst also playing with Didi who was arguably the best playmaker of that era.

I would understand the point if we had something like Maradona and Platini playing in the same team, but you don't have that here.

 

[Moby]

I agree with the ball hogging thing and my first sentence here was there being a mismatch of playing styles. Although something that might give it slightly more credit than the usual collection of GOATS in a team would be that all of Best, Pele, Di Stefano and Pele played in an super attack friendly era with 4-5 man attacks, where most of them have had great achievements while having other stars around and would probably have a better chance of making this work than your usual all time XIs. Best played with Charlton in the team, Di Stefano had someone like Puskas, Kopa and Gento while Pele has the most well known case of making a team of superstars work. Also none of them have the ego of the level of Maradona or Cruyff which would come in the way. That's the main reason I didn't downmark the team as strictly on the ball hogging aspect as normally with such players. Sure there could still be clashes but on the large I think they should be okay, both style wise and mentally.

 

[harms]

You're looking far too much into it quite frankly and I'm not sure why you think having four attackers of that calibre is such a problem, given the fact that they all play in different positions and that only one of them is an actual playmaker.

Best being a great dribbler on the left wing doesn't lessen Pele's chances of scoring a goal, the same way it didn't lessen Denis Law's, and it doesn't prevent Di Stefano running things in the middle, the same way it didn't prevent Bobby Charlton.

In fact all that dribbling ability will do for Pele is inevitably create space when defenders get dragged out wide to deal with Best in possession - that's one of the benefits you get from having great forwards attacking from all directions.

In terms of Pele and Garrincha they didn't just manage to play together, despite both being top individual talents - they actually never lost a football match. And that's whilst also playing with Didi who was arguably the best playmaker of that era.

I would understand the point if we had something like Maradona and Platini playing in the same team, but you don't have that here.

It's not the point of playing in the same zones, it's a completely different one - it's that all your players are players that excel with the ball (and this balance is usually flawed with all-time greats, who want the ball all the time), especially Di Stefano and Garrincha. There is only one ball in the game, and when someone like that is on the ball you'd like your other attackers to move around, creating space for themselves and others - something that Ronaldo does arguably better than anyone in history (his main and only rival would be Müller here in my opinion), van Basten also did it excellently. Of course, Pele and Best and Di Stefano are capable of such movement, but it's not their strong suit and you'd be better off with someone like that gelling your attack together instead of overloading your team with the biggest names.

That's my opinion and I'm biased in that game, of course, but I also stated it earlier - I actually thought that you've done brilliantly when you secured both Pele and Di Stefano as it allowed you to have a GOAT replacement if one will go to Argentina or Ibiza or something, but I never liked them together (especially when you look at the flanks too).

Your team was better balanced with Nordahl upfront, despite the drastic change in quality.

 

[harms]

I agree with the ball hogging thing and my first sentence here was there being a mismatch of playing styles. Although something that might give it slightly more credit than the usual collection of GOATS in a team would be that all of Best, Pele, Di Stefano and Pele played in an super attack friendly era with 4-5 man attacks, where most of them have had great achievements while having other stars around and would probably have a better chance of making this work than your usual all time XIs. Best played with Charlton in the team, Di Stefano had someone like Puskas, Kopa and Gento while Pele has the most well known case of making a team of superstars work. Also none of them have the ego of the level of Maradona or Cruyff which would come in the way. That's the main reason I didn't downmark the team as strictly on the ball hogging aspect as normally with such players. Sure there could still be clashes but on the large I think they should be okay, both style wise and mentally.

Garrincha and Best had ridiculous ego - with Garrincha dribbling forward, turning back and dribbling his way to his own box just to showcase his ability or with Best running to the other side of the pitch to nutmeg Cruyff.

Charlton and Law were as selfless as imaginable for the players of this calibre - and they both sacrificed some of their game to suit Best (the most talented and the most egoistical out of three).

Di Stefano is not the easiest of men, even today, and he could be a touch unpredictable. But I'll tell you what dominated his life: the enormous desire to win and to be the best at any cost. If that was threatened, he could be as stubborn and merciless as a young child. He was just as ruthless with himself, and if his own form wasn't quite there - it can happen to anyone - he would make up for it with energy and enthusiasm, and sheer effort if necessary. And he wanted the same from everyone else. He didn't like strangers and if any approached he would clam up and appear very unfriendly, but if someone he knew introduced a person to him, a friend, a supporter or anyone, he was charming and hospitable.

Di Stefano, anyway, had a right to grumble if he wanted: he was a great player and saw things others didn't see. No game is perfect, there are always mistakes, and Di Stefano would have a list of them in his head at the end: so-and-so didn't move into space quick enough; somebody should have seen him in the position he had found, but where was the pass? I never minded.

It was Puskas who sacrificed his game to fit in Di Stefano's side, limiting himself to a glorified poacher basically - and they also had Didi, who came to be the main creative force (like Garrincha was all his life, although on the flank) and was quickly ousted by Di Stefano.

When Didi was presented to local media and fans, Di Stefano was persuaded to be pictured shaking hands. Smiling, he told Didi: “They say you’ve come to replace me. Well, you’re too old and you’re not good enough.” Didi lasted just six months before being loaned to Valencia then sold to Botafogo.

Pele that made the team of the superstars work was the different Pele that is on the pitch, like IT said themselves. And he connected them from the deeper position, using his all-round arsenal and changing the approach from scoring to assisting and the other way around when the situation required it. Here he is forced to be a focal point of the attack and he doesn't have a freedom he has that made him the perfect gel in 1970 team. He is limited to a №9 who has to stretch opposition defence in order to make room for Di Stefano

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Your team was better balanced with Nordahl upfront, despite the drastic change in quality.

I fail to see the merits of discussing 'balance' as a standalone concept to warrant this kind of a statement.

It was Puskas who sacrificed his game to fit in Di Stefano's side, limiting himself to a glorified poacher basically

Didn't he have to do an assist so that AdS can score and become the top scorer? Either way I'm sure any Real Madrid fan would dispute Puskas being described as a glorified poacher. Doesn't sit well.

 

[Theon]

Your team was better balanced with Nordahl upfront, despite the drastic change in quality.

Now that, right there, is an utterly absurd comment.

I'm not sure what type of player you think Pele is but it seems to be that you're significantly under rating his work rate, aerial game and movement off the ball if you think Nordahl is a better option as a #9.

That's actually one of the most bias and ridiculous things I've read in these drafts.

A good proportion of Pele's reputation as a great player comes from his ability to play with other greats - he's pretty the GOAT at playing with other GOATS, so to somehow imply that he imbalances it all is a touch ridiculous IMO.

 

[Moby]

Garrincha and Best had ridiculous ego - with Garrincha dribbling forward, turning back and dribbling his way to his own box just to showcase his ability or with Best running to the other side of the pitch to nutmeg Cruyff.

Garrincha is careless, not egoistic. He won't throw a fuss if he doesn't get the ball - might still not do anything as useful as Cristiano which is still bad but still - he will still start doing his thing when he gets it. He really didn't give a feck. As for Best, that incident is simply a point to prove, again not ego. He was a brilliant team player actually, worked his socks off defensively off the ball unlike Garrincha and was what you'd call back then a proper footballer. There was no selfishness, preciousness or star like ego with him, despite his off the field incidents. On the pitch he went down to the basics and did his job.

Charlton and Law were as selfless as imaginable for the players of this calibre

Law is, but you have the inaccurate impression of Charlton if you think he was highly selfless. Reading Bestie's autobiography, he couldn't have stated enough times that Charlton was always the main man in the team. He was the midfield general and the main attacking player, the main goalscorer and man around whom the team was built around, which is what you can easily recognise when you watch them play. Of course he was still an absolutely great team player and I consider Di Stefano to be a similar team player in the this setup specially as he had played with the world's best players for a long time and won everything.

Garrincha seems to be the main issue to me, specially off the ball, but none of Di Stefano, Pele or Best were particularly selfish or egoistic and have quite a lot of experience playing alongside players of similar quality and mental attributes.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Question of degrees, obviously. It's not like this ball hogging business amounts to the quartet becoming a clusterfeck - but it's not ideal.

And, yes - you can't say that Pelé will work as the '70 style gel here to tie it all together: That would be assuming a bit too much (not saying the argument has been made - but it's a possible one).

I don't love Pelé up front by himself to begin with, if I'm honest. And that too is simply a question of degrees - he would obviously be more than an average plonker in that role, but even the young Pelé was more of a second striker than a line leader.

To me the difference between the teams is that there's more to question in IT's setup - it's as simple as that. Not a huge flaw anywhere, smaller things - but more of them.

 

[harms]

Didn't he have to do an assist so that AdS can score and become the top scorer? Either way I'm sure any Real Madrid fan would dispute Puskas being described as a glorified poacher. Doesn't sit well.

Yep, in his first season. Well, it's an oversimplification, but he was much more involved in the build-up for Hungary and Honved and he gave it up, moving closer to the box, because Di Stefano was so dominant in all phases of the game.

(continuing after Didi's departure) But Puskas was interested in scoring goals, not creating them. He was no rival to Di Stefano but an ally, never more than on that iconic day in 1960 when Madrid thrashed Eintracht Frankfurt 7-3 in Glasgow to win the European Cup for a fifth successive time

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Garrincha seems to be the main issue to me, specially off the ball, but none of Di Stefano, Pele or Best were particularly selfish or egoistic and have quite a lot of experience playing alongside players of similar quality and mental attributes.

It's going to be either Best of Garrincha depending on which side the attack is coming from. Neither are going to contribute significantly off the ball. With Di Stefano feeding and Pele holding off the defence, both would be deadly. In a modern sense, Ribery/Robben duo comes to mind.

 

[Theon]

It's not the point of playing in the same zones, it's a completely different one - it's that all your players are players that excel with the ball (and this balance is usually flawed with all-time greats, who want the ball all the time)

Well first point is I'm not quite buying what you're selling with Van Basten and Ronaldo being such a perfect mix - Ronaldo at Madrid is a goal poacher, he's a striker who starts from the left wing and comes centrally so I think there a clear overlap with Van Basten in terms of the role and positions that they'll take up.

It goes without saying Van Basten is nothing like Benzema or anywhere near as selfless (something you keep bringing up for our side).

The second point is that you don't have any great width in that front three - as already stated Ronaldo cuts inside and plays centrally, whilst Messi is going to make those same movements on the other side. Messi is your best source of width but he's no real winger and he does his best work in central areas.

The main thing I want to get at though is this criticism of our front four. Let's try and not make vague statements like 'they all love getting on the ball', or daft statements like 'Nordahl would be better than Pele', and let's try and be specific. What specifically do you see happening?

From my view we have one playmaker in the side who is running the show, we have two world class wingers on the flanks and then arguably the best player to lace up a pair of football boots up top. No problems there.

You have Best who thrived with Bobby Charlton and Denis Law, Pele and Garrincha who thrived with each other along with Didi (and never lost a match together), and Di Stefano who is clearly the playmaker here but who also thrived with the likes of Puskas, Gento and Kopa.

If this is such a big issue you must be able to point to some tangible, authoritative evidence for it not working - yet you haven't provided anything. It's all just vague comments that don't actually correspond to what happened in reality.

 

[harms]

That's actually one of the most bias and ridiculous things I've read in these drafts.

Every draft I say dozens things that you label as "the most bizarre" or "bias and ridiculous" things that you've read here, I swear! It's good to know that I'm continuing to improve in this strange way.

And I never said that Nordahl is a better choice for a #9, just that with him your team was more balanced (without the needless limitation of Pele to a focal point) - not better. The quality gap between them is so big that it completely disqualifies even a thought about it. But someone closer to Nordahl stylistically with an upgrade in quality (van Basten, for example), would've been a better choice as a target man for the runners around him.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Gone for invictus / theon because I feel it looks more like an actual team . Completely European defence , South American flair attack and the wildcard genius of George best who on the counter is for me the most effective player on the pitch . This is the best defence Messi / Cafu has come up against , and whilst they will have success I don't see it being enough to overcome the threat of that magical quartet.

Very , very close though .

 

[Theon]

But someone closer to Nordahl stylistically with an upgrade in quality (van Basten, for example), would've been a better choice as a target man for the runners around him.

You've literally just been posting about how we have no runners or off the ball movement.

Can you respond to the rest of the post about Pele? He had fantastic work rate, was great in the air and lethal running behind the defence. He was also a much better technically and as a playmaker than Nordhal, so if the whole schtick is that you want someone linking play up top - you would always choose Pele.

I think you're way off in your assessment of Pele and how well rounded he was.

 

[Moby]

Pele is by far the least problematic and also the best player of those four. If you think there's a problem, you remove others not him.

 

[harms]

You've literally just been posting about how we have no runners or off the ball movement.

Can you respond to the rest of the post about Pele? He had fantastic work rate, was great in the air and lethal running behind the defence. He was also a much better technically and as a playmaker than Nordhal, so if the whole schtick is that you want someone linking play up top - you would always choose Pele.

I think you're way off in your assessment of Pele and how well rounded he was.

Pele is by far the least problematic and also the best player of those four. If you think there's a problem, you remove others not him.

It's not a question about Pele's skillset, it's quite the opposite - I don't think that it's worth to put your best player into the position that actually limits him (his devastating runs from the deep and passing and everything, and even as a youngster he never lead the line). And you do. If you'd have a striker upfront with Pele as a free-roaming second striker and Garrincha with Best on the wings that would've been much better

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Maybe all that is needed is to switch Pele and Di Stefano. Pele as provider and Di Stefano in a False 9 type role with Best/Garrincha cutting in.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If this is such a big issue you must be able to point to some tangible, authoritative evidence for it not working - yet you haven't provided anything. It's all just vague comments that don't actually correspond to what happened in reality.

In fairness, this isn't reality. There are no historical examples of a bunch of more or less ball hogging GOATs not working in perfect synch - nor any examples of the opposite.

What you cite are examples of configurations where one of your GOATs work in synch with other great players (some of whom are ball hoggers to some degree), but in different setups, different roles (Pelé), and not with multiple GOATs (who are suspected of being too fond of the ball in this particular context).

 

[harms]

Who is the most similar player to you playing now?
Paul Hunniford, Congleton
Best: Giggsy is probably the closest because as soon as he gets the ball he goes at players. Giggs has been getting better and better in recent years and is undoubtedly at the peak of his career. Thierry Henry does the same, but he does it in the middle and now on the wing. Maradona used to do it – collect the ball, look up and go for goal.


------
re: Best's selfishness provided to you by no other than Dennis Law
(from manutd.com)
Busby’s approach was fluid, often changing formations mid-game. Within them all, however, it was Best’s wanderlust and meandering brilliance which demanded the most flexibility. By his own admission, the Ulsterman took time to become a team player – an evolution that didn’t always sit well with his team-mates.

“I had a wonderful rapport with Bestie, although he could be a bit difficult to play with,” admitted Law. “You would run into great positions and call for the ball, then you didn’t get it and it could make you mad. But then George would drop his shoulder yet again, go past another posse of defenders and score a sensational goal. What could you say?"

 

[Theon]

It's not a question about Pele's skillset, it's quite the opposite - I don't think that it's worth to put your best player into the position that actually limits him (his devastating runs from the deep and passing and everything)

Playing as a striker limits Pele.. Okay. That younger Pele is the peak version - I've no doubt about that.

The younger version was comfortably a better player than the ageing 1970 Pele who was a few months shy of his 30th birthday.

Obviously Pele was the definition of a genius and all versions of him were fantastic, but it's that younger, peak version that we want here - when he was lightening quick, strong and an exceptional dribbler who scored 349 goals in four seasons.

It's the version antohan/Aldo used in a previous all time draft and IMO is comfortably his best role.

 

[harms]

Charlton played 766 games and scored 253 goals, which meant that from midfield and for several frustrating years from the left wing he scored a goal every 3.027 matches. George, who marauded at will and hogged the ball often to the torment of Charlton and Denis Law, did it at the ratio of 2.619. Law, the third member of the blessed trinity, scored 239 in 409 games at a strike rate of 1.71. Statistics will always be only part of a football story, but when they accompany performance of great beauty, as was the fact in different ways in all three cases, they probably have added relevance.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...harlton-was-the-better-footballer-517380.html

Best is one of my all-time favorites, but he was a ball-hogger, no two ways about it, and both Charlton and Law allowed him to shine by being more conservative and selfless.

 

[Physiocrat]

Maybe all that is needed is to switch Pele and Di Stefano. Pele as provider and Di Stefano in a False 9 type role with Best/Garrincha cutting in.

That's actually how I think it would work in practice and is the reason why I buy the front 4 working. Otherwise harms's criticism of Pele always being best with a striker is actually on the money

 

[Theon]

In fairness, this isn't reality. There are no historical examples of a bunch of more or less ball hogging GOATs not working in perfect synch - nor any examples of the opposite.

What you cite are examples of configurations where one of your GOATs work in synch with other great players (some of whom are ball hoggers to some degree), but in different setups, different roles (Pelé), and not with multiple GOATs (who are suspected of being too fond of the ball in this particular context).

If you're going to criticise something that contradicts what happened with reality, then the onus is on you to come up with the evidence and justification.

I have cited examples of all four playing with other GOAT players, and every one of them thrived in such a set up - you actually have Pele who managed to thrive in one of the most imbalanced international sides of all time, but still make it work.

 

[Enigma_87]

Maybe all that is needed is to switch Pele and Di Stefano. Pele as provider and Di Stefano in a False 9 type role with Best/Garrincha cutting in.

Interesting suggestion. As I've said I too think Pele is best at playing off someone, not that he won't do the job leading the line. He's probably the most complete footballer out there.

Probably no need to change in terms of formation tho, surely when AdS charges forward Pele drops and vice versa.

 

[harms]

Playing as a striker limits Pele.. Okay. That younger Pele is the peak version - I've no doubt about that.

The younger version was comfortably a better player than the ageing 1970 Pele who was a few months shy of his 30th birthday.

Obviously Pele was the definition of a genius and all versions of him were fantastic, but it's that younger, peak version that we want here - when he was lightening quick, strong and an exceptional dribbler who scored 349 goals in four seasons.

It's the version antohan/Aldo used in a previous all time draft and IMO is comfortably his best role.

It's interesting that he himself doesn't think so, but you probably know more about him. This draft formation proves everything that you said earlier, I take it all back!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Maybe all that is needed is to switch Pele and Di Stefano. Pele as provider and Di Stefano in a False 9 type role with Best/Garrincha cutting in.

That would be awful IMO.

 

[harms]

Maybe all that is needed is to switch Pele and Di Stefano. Pele as provider and Di Stefano in a False 9 type role with Best/Garrincha cutting in.

Well, in that case I'll have an edge (and a big one) in midfield battle, I assume, although it would be harder to deal with them defensively

 

[Theon]

“I had a wonderful rapport with Bestie, although he could be a bit difficult to play with,” admitted Law. “You would run into great positions and call for the ball, then you didn’t get it and it could make you mad. But then George would drop his shoulder yet again, go past another posse of defenders and score a sensational goal. What could you say?"

You're really going down this route when you have Critiano Ronaldo in your side?

There is literally no question who the more selfless player was out of Best or Ronaldo, both in terms of workrate/defensive contribution and the way they interact with their teammates in possession. George was an excellent team player.

 

[harms]

You're really going down this route when you have Critiano Ronaldo in your side?

There is literally no question who the more selfless player was out of Best or Ronaldo, both in terms of workrate/defensive contribution and the way they interact with their teammates in possession. George was an excellent team player.

Yeah, because I have only Ronaldo in my side who is obsessed with himself.

 

[Physiocrat]

That would be awful IMO.

Really?! It makes the most sense IMO. Di Stefano starts further forward and drops back whilst Pele plays at 10 but ventures to 9.

 

[harms]

It's the version antohan/Aldo used in a previous all time draft and IMO is comfortably his best role.

2:50

I was not a center-forward, I used to play as a third man, I used to help the midfielders, I used to play coming from behind, so...

 

[Moby]

What do you guys consider to be Pelé's peak? I'd say it is something from around 1960-1966, that would be his "Messi phase" and he would have probably won around 4-5 Ballon D'or in that period with a couple later in his career totalling around 5-6 (Garrincha winning it in 1992 on account of the WC). Will be interesting to see what was his playing position around that time.

 

[Enigma_87]

Playing as a striker limits Pele.. Okay. That younger Pele is the peak version - I've no doubt about that.

The younger version was comfortably a better player than the ageing 1970 Pele who was a few months shy of his 30th birthday.

Obviously Pele was the definition of a genius and all versions of him were fantastic, but it's that younger, peak version that we want here - when he was lightening quick, strong and an exceptional dribbler who scored 349 goals in four seasons.

It's the version antohan/Aldo used in a previous all time draft and IMO is comfortably his best role.

Did anto win the draft with that side? Rijkaard/ Beckenbauer combo is great, but that front four looks very unbalanced to me. Pele/Maradona is a no go.

 

[Moby]

Did anto win the draft with that side? Rijkaard/ Beckenbauer combo is great, but that front four looks very unbalanced to me. Pele/Maradona is a no go.

Yes we did. We defeated the attack of Cruyff-Diego-Garrincha in the semi using the same argument harms is beating the drum about right now.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

It's pretty childish but IMO it does have merit ;

I don't think Messi and Ronaldo would ever work as good as we would all like it to . There is simply no escaping the fact that even surrounded by all that talent , CR7 is still going to view himself as the best player on the pitch and likely ball hog more than anyone. Ronaldo in a team of players better than him ( even though he doesn't see it that way ) = an ineffective and frustrating Ronaldo