The deadwood and the backups

Zlatattack said:
It's really important we keep up this process. We have a lot of players who contribute nothing to us.

Immediate deadwood
Sanchez, Lingard, Periera, Jones, Rojo

Players with question marks or could be upgraded in the future
Bailly, Lindelof, Shaw, TFM (only in this list because he costs nothing compared to the others).

We should be trying to get rid of these players and replacing them from within or with free transfers/shrewed signings. I don't think we should rush anything though. A big part of it is having players that can challenge the first team.

Ryan Fraser would be a good option, he'd offer more than Lingard and Periera and is available on a free.
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Think there is a possibility of us getting rid of Sanchez (loan deal) one of Lingard/Pereira, Rojo & Smalling
 
To dispose:
GK: Joel Pereira, Lee Grant
Defence: Jones, Rojo, Smalling, TFM
Midfield: Lingard, Pereira, Mata
Attack: Sanchez

There are 10 senior players to be disposed of, none of whom brings any value to the table whatsoever.
 
georgipep said:
A bit depressing seeing so many people asking for 5+ players to be sold after this season... I think many here do not understand how squad dynamics and morale work. It is actually quite similar to any other profession where you have teams and members that rely on each other.

If you sack a huge part of the people you'll get a negative effect on morale and dynamics simply because the remaining become insecure and you inevitably lose experience. The players most have written to be sold are not problematic ones (with one obvious exception) and some of them are well liked and a positive character within the squad.

Then removing 5+ senior players will require replacing them. I see some suggest using Ching, Garner, Levitt, Mengi, which is all fine but a few bad games and their psyche will be destroyed. Additionally, these young guns need games and are very likely to go out on loan (at least some of them).

So, buying then? Adding many new players (and big money signings too, let's not kid ourselves) is as disruptive (if not more) as culling the squad. The end result will be a fractioned player base, fear and negativity looking over the survivors and overall disruption of the harmony we are experiencing at the moment.

I agree that some of the "deadwood" are most likely not good enough anymore but we can't move them all. Young players need the experienced ones to help them make the passage. Remember, this is not a video game. You're dealing with real people like you and me. They have their own emotions, their fears and aspirations. I'm sure all of them want to be successful (I'd argue they already are), some will not be, that's inevitable. But we can't hire and fire like Manchester United is a burger place. Continuity is extremely important in team sports.
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This is a good point and something i think Ole has been quite good at.

yes, lets have left so far since Ole took over. But he is getting rid of players in a calculated way, not a rushed way. Players who have gone are one's who rarely featured, with the exception of Lukaku and Young.

We still need about 10 or 11 to go, but anyone with an ounce of common sense know its a slow process.

The three loan players could all leave permanently with no disruption to squad harmony.
Smalling/Sanchez/Rojo.
Its natural for 2 or 3 to leave during a normal summer so if we cherry picked the following:
Lingard/Jones/TFM

That would mean 5 players leaving permanently with little impact to the dynamic of the squad.

We would still be in a position where we had players who would rarely feature, but every squad does. Players like Periera/Mata/Lee Grant/Bailly/Tuanzebe can work hard and try and force they're way in. Every squad has players like this.

Ole has done a good job at targeting players with footballing quality and the right mentality - so i have no issue with adding 3 or 4 new players in to the squad in one window. The transition of the squad is going well.

It's an exciting time for sure
 
Alemar said:
To dispose:
GK: Joel Pereira, Lee Grant
Defence: Jones, Rojo, Smalling, TFM
Midfield: Lingard, Pereira, Mata
Attack: Sanchez

There are 10 senior players to be disposed of, none of whom brings any value to the table whatsoever.
Click to expand...

You cant ship them all out in one window though, it's not rational or realistic.

Ole has done a good job at this and will continue to do so.

I think we will see 5 players leave this summer:
Rojo/Smalling/Sanchez to make loans permanent.
Jones/Lingard to be sold

j.Periera/TFM may get a loan.
A,Periera/Mata/Grant to stay as backups
 
Don’t know how you can say LB is sorted with Shaw and Williams. It’s not a priority area, but an area that needs addressing nonetheless.
 
Craig Ward said:
You cant ship them all out in one window though, it's not rational or realistic.

Ole has done a good job at this and will continue to do so.

I think we will see 5 players leave this summer:
Rojo/Smalling/Sanchez to make loans permanent.
Jones/Lingard to be sold

j.Periera/TFM may get a loan.
A,Periera/Mata/Grant to stay as backups
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we don’t need Lee Grant as backup. He is as poor a goalkeeper as they can get - give his bench time to Kovar if need be.
 
jesperjaap said:
What utter nonsense. Tell me a premiership centre back you could buy for £10m under the age of 30? JOnes is 28 years old. If ROma wont pay £15m I expect there are a host of premiership sides that would for Smalling. I know we are in different times at the moment but lets not forget Michael Keane was sold for £25m.
Also though never been a fan Lingard is an England squad player and under 30 and you think his current transfer value is £5/6M? I agree on James but we arent sellign half these players, I was just putting a lis of players there are reasons they could be sold and giving what I thought conservatilvely was there value. And nobody would pay over £4m for Perreira, seriously you are talking utter twaddle
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So tell me where these managers who are falling over themselves to buy Smalling? Jones who would want to buy a player fort decent money when he is always injury prone. Lingard and Periera need moving on. They have proven they are nowhere near top quality players. How much do you think we are going to get? Yet you think Im talking rubbish? I would look in the mirror mate
 
Craig Ward said:
This is a good point and something i think Ole has been quite good at.

yes, lets have left so far since Ole took over. But he is getting rid of players in a calculated way, not a rushed way. Players who have gone are one's who rarely featured, with the exception of Lukaku and Young.

We still need about 10 or 11 to go, but anyone with an ounce of common sense know its a slow process.

The three loan players could all leave permanently with no disruption to squad harmony.
Smalling/Sanchez/Rojo.
Its natural for 2 or 3 to leave during a normal summer so if we cherry picked the following:
Lingard/Jones/TFM

That would mean 5 players leaving permanently with little impact to the dynamic of the squad.

We would still be in a position where we had players who would rarely feature, but every squad does. Players like Periera/Mata/Lee Grant/Bailly/Tuanzebe can work hard and try and force they're way in. Every squad has players like this.

Ole has done a good job at targeting players with footballing quality and the right mentality - so i have no issue with adding 3 or 4 new players in to the squad in one window. The transition of the squad is going well.

It's an exciting time for sure
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If I look at the list of players we have on the fringes, I agree that the loanees should be relatively easier to sell with the notable exception of Sanchez. I think we should brace ourselves for another subsidised loan next season.

When it comes to Jones, I think his salary will be prohibitive to any sale. Unless he agrees to take a paycut, I would be surprised if we find a buyer, also considering that we would ask for "some" transfer sum. Lingard should be much easier to find a new team, regardless of his salary requirements. TFM is an enigma for me. I don't know how much of his potential is left in there, how high Ole rates him and if we want to just recuperate some money that we've invested in him.

The rest I agree with you. The biggest curveball we should be concerned about is Pogba. I hope he stays because if he leaves then we need to spend to replace him and that's not an easy task even on paper.
 
wolvored said:
So tell me where these managers who are falling over themselves to buy Smalling? Jones who would want to buy a player fort decent money when he is always injury prone. Lingard and Periera need moving on. They have proven they are nowhere near top quality players. How much do you think we are going to get? Yet you think Im talking rubbish? I would look in the mirror mate
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Johnny Evans went for 3.5m and that was part of a relegation clause and he was older than Jones. I have already said what I think we are goin gto get, that was what you responded to in the first place?
I want shot of these players just like you. And as you rightly state, some may be hard to move on due to the contracts they have. Freeing up a lot of these wages is of course a good thing. At the same time though, if we are to be making 2/3 big signings this summer, we are probably spending £150-200m with the names mentioned. This has to be offset somehow, taking £20-25m odd as you seem to have valued Lingard/Perreira/JOnes/Smalling at collectively doesnt really do that. You are valuing 3 players withseveral England caps amongst those 4 collectively at £5/6m each on average and only Smalling is now 30, so yes I think you are talking rubbish
 
Alemar said:
we don’t need Lee Grant as backup. He is as poor a goalkeeper as they can get - give his bench time to Kovar if need be.
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Lee Grant doesnt effect the squad - pointless focusing on him when we have 10 other players who need to leave. He's harmless
 
georgipep said:
If I look at the list of players we have on the fringes, I agree that the loanees should be relatively easier to sell with the notable exception of Sanchez. I think we should brace ourselves for another subsidised loan next season.

When it comes to Jones, I think his salary will be prohibitive to any sale. Unless he agrees to take a paycut, I would be surprised if we find a buyer, also considering that we would ask for "some" transfer sum. Lingard should be much easier to find a new team, regardless of his salary requirements. TFM is an enigma for me. I don't know how much of his potential is left in there, how high Ole rates him and if we want to just recuperate some money that we've invested in him.

The rest I agree with you. The biggest curveball we should be concerned about is Pogba. I hope he stays because if he leaves then we need to spend to replace him and that's not an easy task even on paper.
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Yeah think your right.

Sanchez is such a headache. Awful signing from us.

While there may be complications in player sales, such as Jones' wages for example. It's relatively easy to say on paper who should go - real life is different. I think we as a selling club have been guilty of holding out for the higher price when it comes to sales - i think we really just have to accept what we can get for some of these players to some degree.

Our squad needs changing. We cannot keep Jones for example around on his wages when he cant even make the match day squad. He needs to go, we just might need to take a hit on the fee. Him leaving is more beneficial than him staying. I hope we are ruthless.

Pogba is one curve ball i agree. Think we've all debated Pogba way to much. For me, if he wants to go then good riddance. He's divided our fan base and for me personally, he can be replaced just like anybody else.

DDG is another. Henderson has stated he wont be happy to go on loan after loan so we will have a decision to make there.

Another issue in a season or two for me is going to be CB. Maguire is pretty decent, Lindelof can be upgraded upon easily for me. Interesting to see what happens to Mengi over the next 2 seasons. A signing of say, Upamencano appeals to me here.

Finally, we have all debated whether Martial is going to be consistently good enough to be our main No.9 long term. He's doing well, improving but again over the course of another 2 seasons i wouldnt be surprised if there's some movement there. We will sign another striker once Ighalo is gone and if the new addition does well and Martial is rotated more who knows.

Gone off a bit long term there but there's always work to do within a squad of 25.

Priority for me is selling:
Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Sanchez/Lingard in the next window.
 
Craig Ward said:
Lee Grant doesnt effect the squad - pointless focusing on him when we have 10 other players who need to leave. He's harmless
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harmless - yes, pointless - even more so. We simply need to stop buying nothing players for whatever positions. Surely Grant is the lowest priority in our “to dispose of” list, but still he is an example of a player we do not need
 
Alemar said:
To dispose:
GK: Joel Pereira, Lee Grant
Defence: Jones, Rojo, Smalling, TFM
Midfield: Lingard, Pereira, Mata
Attack: Sanchez

There are 10 senior players to be disposed of, none of whom brings any value to the table whatsoever.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Get Grealish, Sancho and a DM in and we're set. Add a CB and potantially a LB next year and we can compete for the league, these players need to go though.
 
Craig Ward said:
Yeah think your right.

Sanchez is such a headache. Awful signing from us.

While there may be complications in player sales, such as Jones' wages for example. It's relatively easy to say on paper who should go - real life is different. I think we as a selling club have been guilty of holding out for the higher price when it comes to sales - i think we really just have to accept what we can get for some of these players to some degree.

Our squad needs changing. We cannot keep Jones for example around on his wages when he cant even make the match day squad. He needs to go, we just might need to take a hit on the fee. Him leaving is more beneficial than him staying. I hope we are ruthless.

Pogba is one curve ball i agree. Think we've all debated Pogba way to much. For me, if he wants to go then good riddance. He's divided our fan base and for me personally, he can be replaced just like anybody else.

DDG is another. Henderson has stated he wont be happy to go on loan after loan so we will have a decision to make there.

Another issue in a season or two for me is going to be CB. Maguire is pretty decent, Lindelof can be upgraded upon easily for me. Interesting to see what happens to Mengi over the next 2 seasons. A signing of say, Upamencano appeals to me here.

Finally, we have all debated whether Martial is going to be consistently good enough to be our main No.9 long term. He's doing well, improving but again over the course of another 2 seasons i wouldnt be surprised if there's some movement there. We will sign another striker once Ighalo is gone and if the new addition does well and Martial is rotated more who knows.

Gone off a bit long term there but there's always work to do within a squad of 25.

Priority for me is selling:
Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Sanchez/Lingard in the next window.
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I agree with the list in the end. Although I firmly believe our fans (and the Internet in general) has treated Jones very unfairly, if he can't make the match squad, what's the point? I know it's harsh and brutal but that's life.

If Ole and the coaching staff are waiting for him to stabilise, I hope they know what they're doing because this is not a new thing, he has been like that for years.

For Henderson... That's a very tough one. First, we would need to find a buyer for De Gea. I don't think there is one at the moment, not even potentially. If we don't sell him, is it a smart move to bench your highest earner? We can try and make them compete for the spot but I believe the goalkeeper position requires trust and persistence.

As for Martial, I agree a 100% that we will buy a striker after Ighalo leaves. Probably an older, experienced one so we keep Greenwood's development path open but Anthony must find consistency in his performance, any other result and he will find himself first on the bench, then on the transfer list.
 
Looks like we won't be able to move Jones on again this summer so Rojo & Smalling out it is then
 
jesperjaap said:
Johnny Evans went for 3.5m and that was part of a relegation clause and he was older than Jones. I have already said what I think we are goin gto get, that was what you responded to in the first place?
I want shot of these players just like you. And as you rightly state, some may be hard to move on due to the contracts they have. Freeing up a lot of these wages is of course a good thing. At the same time though, if we are to be making 2/3 big signings this summer, we are probably spending £150-200m with the names mentioned. This has to be offset somehow, taking £20-25m odd as you seem to have valued Lingard/Perreira/JOnes/Smalling at collectively doesnt really do that. You are valuing 3 players withseveral England caps amongst those 4 collectively at £5/6m each on average and only Smalling is now 30, so yes I think you are talking rubbish
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What team do you honestly think will pay decent money for Jones? If you were manager of a Newcastle or Palace for example would you risk £10-£15 million when you hve seen how he doesnt perform over the years and is one of the most injury prone players we have ever had. Or Lingard / Periera for that matter one runs round like an headless chicken with his 'best' days behin him, and the other always flatters to decieve. Smalling apparently we were offered £12/13 million or maybe it was euros. We should have taken it. So no I dont think I'm talking rubbish you are. Lets leave it at that as we aint going to agree over this.
 
jesperjaap said:
I agree on the wage argument, that has been a big problem for a long time. I also said I wouldnt sell all these players. I was listing players that for me could be considered dead wood as they havent been great, have declined, been injured, or havent had the right attitude.

But you ask who in there right mind would pay these fees for Dalot and Bailly? We paid more than the prices I listed for the two players combined.

Dalot is still highly regarded by a lot of teams around Europe, there have been rumours of Barcelona still being interested.

Bailly I get your argument, but at the same time £25m isnt a big transfer fee for a centre back. Everton paid it for Michael Keane after all.

I agree with you on Matic, now. But go back 4/5 months before the lockdown started and I think a lot of people thought he was finished, he was woeful for a long period of time it appeared his legs had gone.

As for Lindelof. I dont get why him covering right back is even relevant. We have Bissaka, Dalot and Laird also coming through not to forget Williams can also play right back, we certainly dont need cover there. It is quite sad and ver relevant and true sadly that one of your points regarding Lindelof is "he stays healthy". I think if our other centre backs had stayed fit he wouldnt be starting, he has pretty much been our only option for a while. Maybe he is a solid "squad" player. Would he be happy with a squad role though? For me he most certainly shouldnt be starting if we are wishing to make a challenge. I really think that with our cb injury porblems and Lindelof being our main partner at the moment, investing in a new centre back should be one of our priorities.

I do agree on DeGea. Henderson I dont think is ready to start and no point recalling him yet as we have a very very good Number 2, the game the other day was the first mistake I have sen Romero do here from memory. But DeGea, we have to admit, jsut hasnt been the same keeper the last couple of years
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Well, my point is just that realistically, today, many of these players don't really have any value in the market and it's not due to the transfer fee but because they are on silly wages that the clubs that would be in the market for them couldn't afford which means they aren't worth it. Especially in the "Covid-19 era". I would love to get rid of basically all that you mentioned but it's not happening this summer. We have to make what use we can with some of them until we can.

If Barcelona is in the market for Dalot I'm all for selling just like with basically every other player that you mentioned but I have my doubts about teams pursuing them right now.

Bailly.. He hardly played in two years. No one is paying £25M for him. Phil Jones isn't worth shit either for the same reason.
 
If we could get a combined fee of £40m for Lingard, Pereira, Jones, Rojo, and Dalot. We should be happy as a pig in shit.
 
Alemar said:
To dispose:
GK: Joel Pereira, Lee Grant
Defence: Jones, Rojo, Smalling, TFM
Midfield: Lingard, Pereira, Mata
Attack: Sanchez

There are 10 senior players to be disposed of, none of whom brings any value to the table whatsoever.
Click to expand...

And their wages combined is close to £1m a week!
 
Alemar said:
To dispose:
GK: Joel Pereira, Lee Grant
Defence: Jones, Rojo, Smalling, TFM
Midfield: Lingard, Pereira, Mata
Attack: Sanchez

There are 10 senior players to be disposed of, none of whom brings any value to the table whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Optimistically. We can get £93m for them.

Contracted to:​
​
Fee​
Jun 20​
Lee Grant​
0.0​
?​
Joel Pereira​
0.3​
Jun 21​
Timothy Fosu-Mensah​
6.0​
Jun 21​
Marcos Rojo​
4.0​
Jun 22​
Chris Smalling​
16.0​
Jun 23​
Phil Jones​
10.0​
Jun 21​
Jesse Lingard​
18.0​
Jun 23​
Andreas Pereira​
14.0​
Jun 21​
Juan Mata​
7.0​
Jun 22​
Alexis Sánchez​
18.0​
​
Total​
93.3​
 
I have never seen Lee Grant played. If I didnt read manutd website about him and you told me if Lee Grant was a professional kayaker I would have believed in you.
 
NJM78 said:
If we could get a combined fee of £40m for Lingard, Pereira, Jones, Rojo, and Dalot. We should be happy as a pig in shit.
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Should we?

While all players have flaws and probably have limited futures here - we arent in a position to sell these all in one window. We have more pressing players to sell (Sanchez/Smalling)

Dalot shouldnt be in this list anyway.
 
Regarding Lingard, in a Dutch newspaper, referring to The Independent.

The first half of the season he made regular appearances, but on February 1 Jesse Lingard played his last league game for Manchester United. The 27-year-old attacker does not seem to appear in the future plans of manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. Lingard is also unlucky that it has been going very well in recent weeks. Several clubs hope to save Lingard from his hopeless situation. For example, Everton, Leicester City, Newcastle United, West Bromwich Albion and West Ham United would like to sign him, The Independent reports.
Click to expand...
 
anant said:
I wouldn't mind Bailly for backup and we won't buy 2 CBs this summer. Alexis has been useless, so would like him out even if it means us having to terminate his contract. And we won't sell all three- would prefer to sell Lingard and AP as we can get decent fee there due to age
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It's very hard to terminate a player's contract. Even players who went AWOL from their club for weeks survived termination, and were reinstated by football authorities. Clubs must show just cause but authorities are very stringent. Short of dishonesty, and major infractions (violence, overt racism, ...) I don't see how United have 'just cause'.
 
Alemar said:
To dispose:
GK: Joel Pereira, Lee Grant
Defence: Jones, Rojo, Smalling, TFM
Midfield: Lingard, Pereira, Mata
Attack: Sanchez

There are 10 senior players to be disposed of, none of whom brings any value to the table whatsoever.
Click to expand...

it's pretty obvious why we are not winning anything when you look at this list. Not everyone is SAF to bring the best out of them.

Forget about new signings we must get rid of these players first.

So many saying we cant ship them out but why not we should be ruthless for one season and get rod of them by releasing them or selling for less than wasting so much on paying huge salaries, I respect Smalling for not minting money by sitting idle.
 
sp_107 said:
it's pretty obvious why we are not winning anything when you look at this list. Not everyone is SAF to bring the best out of them.

Forget about new signings we must get rid of these players first.

So many saying we cant ship them out but why not we should be ruthless for one season and get rod of them by releasing them or selling for less than wasting so much on paying huge salaries, I respect Smalling for not minting money by sitting idle.
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The problem as we found with Sanchez is that you can't just cancel contracts for free. If we cancel some of these players contracts then we don't save anything, they will legally be able to get their wages from us. On the other hand we can't sell them/let them go for free as they earn too much money, no other clubs these level of players can go to can afford the wages we pay.
 
Redcy said:
The problem as we found with Sanchez is that you can't just cancel contracts for free. If we cancel some of these players contracts then we don't save anything, they will legally be able to get their wages from us. On the other hand we can't sell them/let them go for free as they earn too much money, no other clubs these level of players can go to can afford the wages we pay.
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True, hope our management realise this and dont repeat the same mistakes in future. We see more numbers with lack of depth.Not good.
 
End of last season was a paper coat over cracks, We still need 3/4 top quality players I think to be in tittle race.
 
Sea-Cow said:
I've never disagreed with a post more in my life.

Pereira is not serviceable and should not be a member of a premier league squad, end of discussion.
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Agreed. I actually think that the Cleverly that left us is a better player than Pereira.
 
Why do so many want to sell smalling here??
He is still better than Lindelöf and guaranteed better than Bailly and Jones combined. I would get him back after the good season with Roma. Because then the fullback issue will be on hold for at least 1-2 years and only a right back will be necessary for the next step of the conversion.
You can't do everything in one transfer window. Many people will probably never understand that.
Van de Beek, right back and maybe a striker. That's enough.

Jones, Pereira, Lingard, Rojo, Dalot -> Good bye.
 
Mark Pawelek said:
Optimistically. We can get £93m for them.

Contracted to:​
​
Fee​
Jun 20​
Lee Grant​
0.0​
?​
Joel Pereira​
0.3​
Jun 21​
Timothy Fosu-Mensah​
6.0​
Jun 21​
Marcos Rojo​
4.0​
Jun 22​
Chris Smalling​
16.0​
Jun 23​
Phil Jones​
10.0​
Jun 21​
Jesse Lingard​
18.0​
Jun 23​
Andreas Pereira​
14.0​
Jun 21​
Juan Mata​
7.0​
Jun 22​
Alexis Sánchez​
18.0​
​
Total​
93.3​
Click to expand...
I’d rather let James go then Lingard & Mata to be honest. We could probably get £15-20m for him too.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
I’d rather let James go then Lingard & Mata to be honest. We could probably get £15-20m for him too.
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Lingard has managed 10 Premier League assists at United in the league in 7,445mins. James has managed 6 in 2,291mins. James is still young and will continue to improve. Lingard is in his prime and is regressing. He's a little bit more of a goal threat than James, with 18 goals compared to James 3.

Neither are good enough ultimately but at least James is still fairly young.
 
Can we fit everyone into our squad? We have so many players now. 30 first team players unless I missed anyone. Although some like Greenwood and Williams should count as youth.

Romero
De Gea
Henderson
Grant
Dalot
AWB
Mensah
Maguire
Lindelöf
Smalling
Jones
Rojo
Bailly
Tuanzebe
Williams
Shaw
DVB
Pogba
Matic
Fred
Mctominay
Bruno
Lingard
Mata
Pereira
Greenwood
James
Martial
Ighalo
Rashford

Who should go to reduce this with 2-3 players?
 
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