- Broke the Celtic - Rangers duopoly
- Won a European trophy with Aberdeen
- Didn't have world cup winners and euro finalists in his team
The clubs willingness to write off seasons
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Yes true total control is having the final say on transfers who to sell and who to get in, but maybe also have a say where the club is going in the future and that in turn might get him to stay longer than 2/3 years.
This does continue to baffle me but it’s because our definition of a wasted season is totally different. As long as finish top 4, it’s not a waste for the Glazers.
This does not compute at all when we have have repeatedly allowed incumbent managers to make complete mess of it right from Moyes till Mourniho and may let Solskjaer to do similar as well .
To be fair it only happened twice. First when Mourinho and his agents were using PSG's name to get a new contract during his second season and then you have Ole getting an extension during the last year of his existing contract.
Ole is a United legend, who will never air United' dirty laundry and who keeps hiring former United legends and coaches with little experience on the cheap. No wonder why our incompetent board and his mates are protecting him. In my opinion, these people are doing their outmost to keep him as manager, which is only fair considering that a new manager might demand changes and might expose the frauds within the United ranks. Its evident that the plan is to wait out the storm as long as its humanely possible giving Ole a chance of winning a couple of games were he would be back at the wheel again. Once that happens then expect that the same PR who told us that Ronaldo loves Ole, that SAF would cry if Ole leaves and that those who criticize Ole are not top reds would portray these results as the next treble win.
Moyes was sacked when we didn't get top 4, same for LVG. Jose was sacked when he'd burnt the house down, we should have got top four that season but Ole messed it up and it was a clear indicator of what was to come. Ole has starting setting fires seemingly now, won't be long.
Ole has a veto (so what would be the difference?), yet he didn't use it for expensive signings he never plays. He also extended contracts with players he doesn't use. We need a footballing guy to make decisions on the clear out. Our board + Ole are clearly not making the right ones, so anyone with 2 brain cells making some decisions is better than the indecisive nonsense we're currently stuck with.
I really think our current squad is best suited to 5-3-2.
Ronaldo Rashford
Fred DM Bruno
Shaw LCB Maguire Varane Lingard
De Gea
Elanga Greenwood
McTominay VDB
DM
Telles Lindelof Bailly Sancho
Henderson Heaton
Out: Martial AWB Tuanzebe Dalot Williams Cavani Pogba Matic Mata Jones.
We don't need to break the bank for silly superstar signings. Conte won a title with Young and Darmian. There's plenty of good Bosman's available next summer, including Brozovic.
Yes, maybe 3 years down the line, we will be more suited to playing with wingers. Conte's not incapable of playing with wingers if he stays on longer (which is a big if given his track record), but we can also just part with him.
I agree with the OP, we need to start thinking about the here and now and stop with this constant rebuild nonsense. It hasn't worked and for all the people that say "Mourinho and LVG were proven and didn't work", at least they won something. They didn't not work because they were proven, as evidenced by the 2 unproven managers that didn't win squat.
We were 11 points off top 4 when Mourinho got sacked after GW17.
We managed to get back in it, but that was due to an unexpected run of unbelievably good form. We did choke it in the run in, but we wouldn't have even been in the run for top 4 if we hadn't unexpectedly put together a title winning run of form.
However had we sacked Mourinho after GW12 we were only 7 off top 4 with another 31 games to go.
Ronaldo was inconsistent and immature in the beginning. We gave him time and we got a Ballon d’Or winner.
If we had done the same with Bebe and Obertan, instead of selling them, we would have had another two ballon d’or winners in our hand. It is how it is. Time makes untalented people world class.
It's easier said than done. I mentioned it yesterday on a different topic but you need to look at the entire picture, it's not just about writing off a season or not but what the alternatives currently are. If you sack a manager early in the season then you need someone that is a viable "midterm" manager or it needs to be your long term manager, but long term I mean at least 2-3 years, it's a not a normal caretaking job particularly if the expectation is to perform at a high level.
I think that people aren't being realistic with this one and don't take into account the fact that there is no set rules outside of Bayern who had the Heynckes card in their backpocket most clubs are at the mercy of what is available on the manager market and if there is no one they stick with their manager for as a long as it's possible, Chelsea in 2015 is an example of that but you could also mention Pirlo or Emery in recent years.
Now where I get your frustration is that I don't have a major concerns about Conte which means that on personal level if the club has lost faith in Ole, I will not understand why they don't go for Conte. To me that would boneheaded but it's clear that there are many people that see things differently and have a big issue with Conte which might be shared by key people within the club. I don't agree but that's fair enough.
' Ole therefore has an opportunity to turn things around and he knows, more than most, what is at stake'
I dont get this. Sure he did OK, though never really convinced or showed that he could win trophies. His abject management of the Europa final a case in point, plus we all see the relentless picking of his favourites, the obsession with McFred etc. Now he has a good squad, but clearly has no idea what to do with them. I think he genuinely believes if he has another £150-200m and signs Haaland and Rice, it will all 'work;'. But he has not football vision and management is more than just picking top players. The real problem is the clowns that run Utd and have no idea of how to run a football club. Plus Ole will never rock the boat or upset them. Conte would want more control, Woodward wont want to let go. As for knowing 'what is at stake'. what does that even mean? The question is his ability as a manager. Every pundit and good journo has been clear for ages that he is not and will not be an elite manager. Why are so many still so blind?
I dont get this. Sure he did OK, though never really convinced or showed that he could win trophies. His abject management of the Europa final a case in point, plus we all see the relentless picking of his favourites, the obsession with McFred etc. Now he has a good squad, but clearly has no idea what to do with them. I think he genuinely believes if he has another £150-200m and signs Haaland and Rice, it will all 'work;'. But he has not football vision and management is more than just picking top players. The real problem is the clowns that run Utd and have no idea of how to run a football club. Plus Ole will never rock the boat or upset them. Conte would want more control, Woodward wont want to let go. As for knowing 'what is at stake'. what does that even mean? The question is his ability as a manager. Every pundit and good journo has been clear for ages that he is not and will not be an elite manager. Why are so many still so blind?
Conte is a risk at the end of the day is he the progressive, modern manager we want? Maybe? Maybe not. At the very least its debatable.
Iv no doubt he would get a tune out of the squad, but what he would achieve this season if we bought in him now? Title, very unlikely, champions league success? Possibly but his record in that competition is quite poor, Fa cup win? Reasonable chance. And then obviously the 'top 4 trophy' would be expected as an absolute minimum.
Basically about the same as what our expectations are now if we stick with ole. If and it is a big if, Ole steadies the ship and improves the form over the next couple of weeks than the above expectations wouldn't be unreasonable and if that happens the board have six months to sound out the right fit to take over in the summer, because either way unless something truly remarkable happens from this point forward its fair to say Ole probably isn't the right man to take us to the next level.
Of course if he doesn't steady the ship then his position will become completely untenable and the board will have no choice but to act because there is a possibility of the minimum expectation not being achieved. Conte comes in steadies the ship improves the form and performances hopefully achieves the minimum expectation but what then happens in the summer? Do we back conte and watch him mourinho the squad for short term gain only to probably end up 18 months down the line in a bit of a mess wondering why we did it? Because that is the very real possibility.
I think the board wanted to give ole his chance this year (fair enough he earned his chance) but I also think the next appointment is a huge one in terms of building us into regular title and champions league challengers not the 1-2 season wonder we will likely get out of Conte.
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It has never happened in his career so why would it start now? He left solid and balanced teams at Juventus, Chelsea and Inter.
Most people seem not to have a clue about Conte.
I think people look at Conte and see nothing but Mourinho, despite evidence pointing to the contrary.
I think the club would be in a much better position if we detach the manager and transfers somewhat. No matter who comes in we need a DM. That should push ahead regardless of who the manager is. The manager of course should be listened to but the club should have a transfer policy and should have a specific profile of player.
Yeah, its a bit crazy.
Early on? They sacked Lampard in late January. Exactly at the halfway point.
Incompetence and lack of sporting ambitions. Volumes have been written about what the priorities are for Glazers and as much as I think they would enjoy if we won something, their first goal is to keep the cash running and the commercial mammoth alive. In that they succeed, because United is still a giant club with enormous fanbase created in SAF years. Considering we were the first one to penetrate Asian market so heavily and with a global following, United will stay profitable even with trophies. Nothing new, welcome to the world of ultra rich club owners.
Now, there’s lack of accountability. Nobody will bear any consequences for giving incompetent Ole so much time and wasting another season. No one at the top will be sacked if we fail miserably this season and lose our best players. Not a single person from our management is under pressure to achieve anything.
Now, there’s lack of accountability. Nobody will bear any consequences for giving incompetent Ole so much time and wasting another season. No one at the top will be sacked if we fail miserably this season and lose our best players. Not a single person from our management is under pressure to achieve anything.
And Tuchel led them to CL final. So there's hope for us.
Also there's a myth that Chelsea does everything perfectly.
Yes, but if you're going to do that, you also need a specific playing style and a specific formation and adjust your choice of managers to that. Otherwise you're just building unbalance.
I think Liverpool would do the same. We're like oil tankers. There's this sense that turning the fecker around is an immense task.
Balance should be based on squad depth, not a single formation or set of tactics. A good squad should be capable of applying itself to multiple playing styles and formations.
Juventus yes, Chelsea no, inter time will tell but his spending there certainly wasn't sustainable.
And Tuchel led them to CL final. So there's hope for us.
Also there's a myth that Chelsea does everything perfectly.
Tend to agree with that. There's always a dominant narrative and that seems to override anything that contradicts is, while events and outcomes that can be seen in different ways just gets sucked into it, and assigned an explanation that fits the overall narrative.
For Tuchel Chelsea, the narrative is they're the current perfect machine, maybe not as talented as Liverpool or as impressive as City, but unrivalled in their capacity to get it done. And there's a reason for that of course, they are very impressive. But important nuances then tend not to get noticed. For instance, if you look at Tuchels record last season and extrapolate that to 38 games, they would have only just finished ahead of United, by a single point if I recall correctly. Not that that's a bad record, but you somehow expect more given the general narrative. After all, OGS doesn't exactly get the same press for a record that is basically similar. Also, he really struggled against lower table teams results-wise, almost as much as Liverpool and much more than United. Yet, it is United that is spoken of as a team struggling to break down weaker opponents, while Tuchel is seen as the epitome of efficiency. The xG and xGA aren't terribly impressive either, and suggests there's a certain tradeoff between playing a high-pressing control-oriented game, and your ability to generate and prevent a large volume of scoring chances. Again not a fundamental argument against what Tuchel is doing, but a nuance that the dominant narrative tends to give no room to. And then of course there's United and Chelsea both going 1-1 after extra time against Villarreal, with that being seen as proof that Chelsea is a winning machine and that United are perennial chokers. Yes, Chelsea won the title and United didn't, but no one's going to convince me that different outcomes in the penalty shootout makes for much of a difference in that regard.
Well, that's easily said, but in practice how are you going to know who is a good player to bring in without waiting to know who the manager is, if you don't know what sort of football the manager will be playing? Players have different skillsets, and are usually much more suited to certain styles and systems than to others. Saying " A good squad should be capable of applying itself to multiple playing styles and formations" is just to pretend that reality isn't what it is.
Chelsea's expected points last season was 77.41, and that's for the entire season, including the Lampard months. Ours was 65.64.
There's a reason for that so-called narrative you're describing: it's that Chelsea are clearly playing better than us, and have been for a while now.
Whereas I was talking about xG and xGA. Which aren't bad either, by any means. But both of which are also less good this season than they were last season, and not on par with the very top teams. But as I said, it's just a nuance.
Obviously I am not arguing that the narrative saying Chelsea are very good is fundamentally wrong, it isn't. Just that it, like narratives in general, is too dominant and hence obscures important nuances and creates exaggerations. You see this all the time, with every team: Everyone's always something, right up until the point where they're suddenly something else.
"There's a reason for that so-called narrative you're describing". Yes, I agree. That's why I wrote " And there's a reason for that of course, they are very impressive", but maybe you missed that?
Also, I am very obviously not arguing that Chelsea aren't playing better than us.
What has he done at Chelsea that supports your point? You do realize that in none of these clubs he had actual control of the squad building, none of these clubs operate like that?
A big one would be my guess. The way we act is not how big clubs with big ambitions should.
Whether they back him or not is not the biggest issue for me. I think it is crazy that the board have not communicated there current stance. It feels like fans are left in the lurch not knowing with what is going on at the club. Come out and say you believe him if you do not sack him. It is embarrassing right now, other clubs are laughing at us because of this mess we find ourselves in.
The clubs willingness to write off the season, I could still understand due to a number of factors like the ineptness of the owners, incompetent CEO, financial reasons and all that. What I simply cannot understand is the fans’ willingness to write off seasons. Fans who love to bring up the dark days, stating things like hey it’s ok that the club is not getting top 4 this season, we almost got relegated decades ago! Fergie failed before, therefore it’s ok for our future managers to fail too! Like, this is exactly the type of fans that the board wants. Sheep who lap it all up in the name of romanticism.
I think they're just caught out by the swiftness of it. Prior to the Leicester game, I doubt if this was even a remote issue on the horizon. Which means they're scrambling for solutions. And it's no good simply sacking Ole with nothing lined up to step in. And if they need time to find that, they might as well give him a few more games while they're doing it.
What I'm wondering is if they really have anyone with a firm knowledge on what's being done at the training field, in the preparation for games and during game situations, who has the expertise to make an informed judgment on whether that's good enough and if it isn't, what is missing. Because if they don't, they're up shit creek trying to deal with this now.
What I'm wondering is if they really have anyone with a firm knowledge on what's being done at the training field, in the preparation for games and during game situations, who has the expertise to make an informed judgment on whether that's good enough and if it isn't, what is missing. Because if they don't, they're up shit creek trying to deal with this now.
That's a terrible idea and exactly what you shouldn't do. The best course of action is to not communicate on these type of things unless you decide the let the manager go, because the reality is that it's a continuously evolving situation a manager can be relatively safe today and not be in two weeks, openly claiming that your manager is safe would put you in a corner and limit or delay future decisions, communicating that your manager isn't safe would put him under unnecessary added pressure.
Fans need to understand that they are not meant to know everything at all time, it's not a good thing for the people actually involved whether we are talking about the executives, the manager or the players. Our sense of comfort serves no one outside of ourselves.
Yeah it’s baffling. Seems to be just so that we can be the club that’s different and always backs their manager. Some aspects of this club are still stuck in the past.
So he has no control over squad building, but your initial argument was that he left well balanced teams at the three mentioned clubs, but he wasn't responsible for that?
Chelsea took 3 years, 3 managers and load of money to get back to challenging after conte left, but I suppose that's a moot point as you have pointed out that he had no control over squad building.
Chelsea model is definitely not perfect but they maximise their chances of success by decisively acting when they believe there is a better manager available. Basically they run the club like a business and without sentiment, the same sentiment which has crippled United for the last decade or so - the fact we then hired a manager whose aim seemed to essentially be to try and copycat SAF just really sums us up as a club right now.And Tuchel led them to CL final. So there's hope for us.
Also there's a myth that Chelsea does everything perfectly.
Exactly, he didn't do what you suggested and left well balanced teams, none of the teams he left were unbalanced or on the decline. He has never Mourinhoed a squad. And Chelsea won the Europa League the following season with Sarri then they hired a subpar manager in Lampard who still kept them in top 4, they then hired a better manager and won the CL.
Edit: Chelsea also had a registration ban in the middle of that.
It really shows the clubs ambition or lack of.