You'd be 100% wrong then because Ten Hag demands hold up ability and technical skills. Lukaku was only capable of playing as a six yard, box striker or on the counter. I genuinely can't think of a player less suited to the position than Lukaku under Ten Hag.
The centre-forward market...
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
Club need to come up with some gem from South America. The market in Europe atm stinks. Or when will Cristiano Jr. be old enough?
I like the way you approach thisGreat, should put us in the pole position for this kid!
Seriously though, think this report could have some legs. The player of course makes sense, great young forward. Might not become a mega star, but he will become a good top level European player. But this is a signing that also check an important box, Dortmund bent us over several times over again regarding the Sancho signing. We need to start to draw a line in the sand regarding these things. A club can have a good relationship with us, and they can opt to not have it. If you opt to not have it, there must be a downside to it. It is as simple as that.
I would write this kid a blank check. 30m sign-on fee? Where do I sign? Can we do DocuSign? It is faster.
The timing almost couldn't be better in January, he'll only need to get past an injuryprone Martial to play at least 70 minutes every weekend here. If ETH and the board doesn't see his potential then we don't deserve him anyway.
I think his general point is correct but the Lukaku example is a bad one, because despite Lukaku's physical size often leading people to think of him as some sort of target man he isn't really.
He's closer to a Chicharito-style goal poacher who just happens to have a bit more on-paper physicality. You want him sniffing out chances in the box and using his pace to get behind defenders, not fighting with centre backs as balls are fired into him, because that will generally end with the opposition getting the ball back one way or another as either the centre-back beats him or his control lets him down. The amount of times we saw him getting beaten in the air by defenders as we lauched long balls towards him....
Not sure I agree that an ETH forward needs particularly oustanding technical skills, mind. Haller was often criticised by Ajax fans for not being a good enough "footballer" even when he was scoring a lot of goals and the three strikers we were most seriously linked with this summer (Nunez, Arnautovic and Sesko) have varying levels of technical ability to put it mildly. If there's a common feature there it's more about their physicality. And the idea that that's what ETH will be looking for is backed by both the reports from the summer (which outright said he wanted a physical CF) and his willingness to use Harry Maguire as a physical presence up front when we were chasing a goal against Sociedad.
What Ten Hag want from a striker is an interesting issue. I would summarize Ten Hag's system as a mix of Pep's game plan and classic Dutch 'totaalvoetbal' (total football). Role wise, there is zero flexibility in Pep's style of play. If you are the striker, you must always position yourself right between the two CBs (if you face two CBs). Why? Because when the striker places himself right between the two CBs, the CBs constantly must decide won who takes the striker and who is prepared to cover behind, and it also draws each CB toward the other which opens up space between the LB and RB. Zlatan skill wise should have been an optimal fit for Pep. Zlatan was tactically a very developed player. Why didn't it work? If a cross was coming in from the right, Zlatan would wander towards the far post. When the ball was being played up field, he would drop down to become a link-up option. Its some of the things he did (does) best, Messi could run in behind the D and Zlatan could find him, what is the problem? Both those plays for example are complete No-Go's in Pep's game plan. The striker should not look to make himself available at by the far post while a winger inverts and take advantage of the space created in the middle. The striker should push up when the ball is played up field, to create space for the wingers in those areas between the lines in which Messi loves getting the ball. There is zero flexibility there whatsoever.
And its the exact same issues Frenkie de Jong has had in Barcelona. Skill wise he is a perfect fit. He understands perfectly what to do with the ball. But he is a wanderer. Developed by ETH or at least by someone with much of the same philosophies as Ten Hag. In Barcelona, he is assigned a corridor, and ordered to stay in it. If you wander into someone else's corridor, there is a breakdown. They will have no clue what to do. Its unacceptable. This is not "natural" and its also not particularly logical, i.e. there is no direct upside in not switching positions in obvious situations. But it of course helps to implement consistency in your play. It is 'keep it simple, stupid', at a level that is hard to grasp for guys like Zlatan and FDJ.
So how does that match-up with ETH's version of Pep's game? What is total football? The definitions of it is widely known: Total Football refers to a fluid tactical playing theory in which any outfield player adopts the role of any other player in the team. Any player can switch between defence, midfield, and attack, with the only player expected to remain in their fixed position throughout the match being the goalkeeper. This constant switching of positions is reliant on players instantly replacing their teammates when they move to a new area of the pitch, so communication is crucial. Total Football aims to create chaos for opposition defenders who struggle to manage the complex positional switches taking place in front of them. And as long as players are pushed up the pitch, this positional fluidity doesn't compromise the defensive shape of the team.
So what you do is basically taking is a carbon copy of Pep’s game plan, but you tell Samuel Eto’o ‘listen, don’t worry about keeping your position, you can drop down and play as a AMC, in which case Iniesta will take your spot, or to play as a RW, in which case Messi will take your spot.’ Hence, ETH can play with a face 9 like Tadic constantly changing positions with Donny and Ziyech and Neres at one point, and a stationary striker like Haller at another. But when Tadic was playing, having someone like Donny on the pitch was really important. Because he would step up and do the pressing of a striker. He would take runs the striker normally takes if Tadic dropped down. Its all linked. It’s the same with the wingers. Sancho at LW will play much deeper and provide other things than Rashford as a LW.
With Rashford at LW and Bruno at AMC – I think someone like Lukaku makes very very little sense. You will want someone responsible at CF. You will want a striker who is more responsible, can drop down better, utilize the runs of Rash and Bruno better, and so forth. Usually a little more experienced strikers fit this bill.
FM wonderkid for sure, but he also has shown it for Dortmunds 1st team, has pretty much cemented his spot in the starting 11 there now and he's made it into Germany's WC squad as well. His finishing and movement is top class.
He's 17 and has had a direct goalinvolvement every 90 minutes (11 goals and 8 assists in 1897 minutes) for Dortmund since his debut on his 16th birthday.
He also broke every record possible for Dortmunds U17 and U19 teams before turning 16 (if his birth sertificate is correct).
As a 12 and 13 year (!) old his record for Dortmund U17 was:
1,71 goals per 90 and 2,02 goals+assists per 90
90 goals and 16 assists in 4731 minutes
As a 14 and 15 year old (!) his record for Dortmund U19 was:
1,92 goals per 90 and 2,33 goals+assists per 90
47 goals and 10 assists in 2198 minutes
That's 137 goals and 26 assists in elite academy U17 and U19 teams before turning 16....
Mindblowing numbers that dwarves everything anyone else has done at that age and at that level.
Greenwood was the last "wonderkid" coming out of England in that sence and his numbers for our U18 team as a 16 and 17 year old was the best in recent times together with Delap and maybe Parrot, and they played against kids his own age, while Moukoko played against much older kids:
Greenwood's U18 stats:
1,18 goals per 90 and 1,49 goals+assists per 90
34 goals and 9 assists in 2598 minutes.
Adrian Sanchez is a pretty reliable source, right?
Don’t mind Dempay. Think he is a good stop gap option. Gives us time to find the right man. Think Dempay is a good option for ETH when Rashford starts at LW.
I don't hate Depay as much as a lot of United fans as I think he's genuinely very strong creative force but at the same time I don't really think he is the number 9 archetype that we need. Feels that like nearly all our attacking players he's someone who likes to drift into that left half space the same as Rashford, Bruno, Ronaldo, Martial and Sancho.
Interesting stat:
Of all the Premier League players that have scored more than one goal this season, the players with the lowest minutes to goals ratio (in all competitions) are:
Martial: 55 minutes per goal
Haaland: 56 minutes per goal
Admittedly Haaland has scored 23 goals to Martial's 4, but this is one of the best scoring rates in Europe, and if he can stay fit, i think we can really compete. The difference in our play when Martial is leading the line compared to Ronaldo is night and day. The market for top strikers is really limited at the moment, so maybe cheaper options like Gakpo and Brobbey would be useful squad options and provide cover for Martial, allowing us to bring in real quality in other areas, and revisit the striker situation in 2024 if Martial can't make the position his own. Our biggest striker problem at the moment is not Martial himself, but that our cover is a 37 year old, someone unable to play for legal reasons, and a left winger who can't lead the line on his own.
Of all the Premier League players that have scored more than one goal this season, the players with the lowest minutes to goals ratio (in all competitions) are:
Martial: 55 minutes per goal
Haaland: 56 minutes per goal
Admittedly Haaland has scored 23 goals to Martial's 4, but this is one of the best scoring rates in Europe, and if he can stay fit, i think we can really compete. The difference in our play when Martial is leading the line compared to Ronaldo is night and day. The market for top strikers is really limited at the moment, so maybe cheaper options like Gakpo and Brobbey would be useful squad options and provide cover for Martial, allowing us to bring in real quality in other areas, and revisit the striker situation in 2024 if Martial can't make the position his own. Our biggest striker problem at the moment is not Martial himself, but that our cover is a 37 year old, someone unable to play for legal reasons, and a left winger who can't lead the line on his own.
I agree with your overarching point but you can't use a sample size of 2.5 games to project anything. That being said, I think Martial really suits EtH's game plan and at this stage of Ronaldo's career Martial is just so much better at combining with the other players at United's disposal and can hold up the ball well. People also tend to associate Martial's relative lack of dynamism as laziness but he's probably one of our hardest pressing forwards which helps us win the ball in the high areas needed to score goals as we don't currently have the creativity to break down stubborn defenses.
God, not Memphis. We got rid of several drama queens, cue another coming in.
Terem Moffi at Lorient should be someone United look at. Looks a very good finisher and keeps on improving every season. Contract expires 2024, so maybe they’d look to cash in while he’s got value.
Interesting quotes, his type seems to lean more toward Felix than Osimhen though some of those traits fit them both.
I mentioned earlier today that if Martial can stay fit he can make the position his own, and ETH clearly agrees. ETH even said the only issue is his availability.
The question is, which other striker meets all of these criteria? I think the rumours around Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko are all interesting. I'm not convinced Gakpo is as much of a target as some other strikers, but he does seem quite similar to Martial in a lot of ways. Personally, I think Sesko and Moukoko have the potential to perform on each of these measures, and although they may not be quite as prolific as Haaland, I think their link up play is better.
The only other ones who I think potentially meets those criteria are Mbappe and Endrick, but the whole world seems to be after them.
Felix seems like too much of a risk, given how he hasn't really kicked on over the past few years, and would likely come with a crazy price tag. Osimhen doesn't have great build up play, and would also be stupidly expensive.
All three of Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko could come in for the price of a Felix or an Osimhen. I would be very excited to bring in those three players, and having Martial, Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko to choose from would be amazing. Together with Rashford, Antony, Sancho and Garnacho, that is quite some strike force. (Ronaldo, Amad and Pellestri would go, and I'm assuming MG does not play for us again).
The question is, which other striker meets all of these criteria? I think the rumours around Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko are all interesting. I'm not convinced Gakpo is as much of a target as some other strikers, but he does seem quite similar to Martial in a lot of ways. Personally, I think Sesko and Moukoko have the potential to perform on each of these measures, and although they may not be quite as prolific as Haaland, I think their link up play is better.
The only other ones who I think potentially meets those criteria are Mbappe and Endrick, but the whole world seems to be after them.
Felix seems like too much of a risk, given how he hasn't really kicked on over the past few years, and would likely come with a crazy price tag. Osimhen doesn't have great build up play, and would also be stupidly expensive.
All three of Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko could come in for the price of a Felix or an Osimhen. I would be very excited to bring in those three players, and having Martial, Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko to choose from would be amazing. Together with Rashford, Antony, Sancho and Garnacho, that is quite some strike force. (Ronaldo, Amad and Pellestri would go, and I'm assuming MG does not play for us again).
Marcus Thuram is out of contract in june 2023. Big, strong, fast, good technique and this year he has started to score. You can buy him for cheap in January. A bargain. Perfect for Utd.
Another very good forward is Terem Moffi (Lorient). He will be the next Osimhen.
Another name is Noah Okafor: 22 years Switzerland international. 185cm, fast, technical and can also play on the wings.
Another very good forward is Terem Moffi (Lorient). He will be the next Osimhen.
Another name is Noah Okafor: 22 years Switzerland international. 185cm, fast, technical and can also play on the wings.
Interesting that Moukoko is out of contract at end of the season. Does this mean it's inevitable he will end up at Bayern? Or are Dortmund confident he will renew?
He will definitely sign a new contract at Dortmund.
Never heard of this guy, he looks class i'll keep an eye on his progress.
Thanks for the vid.
Paul Mullin would be worth a punt
Think we should take a punt on Toney
The rumours are that he has had a falling out with his parents, so he's waiting until he's 18 to sign a contract so they don't have anything to do with it (either in terms of control or making any money). If true, I expect he probably will sign a new contract with Dortmund since he's come through their academy and obviously having so much success already there, but there's always that possibility that another team turns his head.
It does seem like next season there will be a lot of option available but it'll also depend on where the team finish in the league.
How much we thinking for Toney, ticks all the boxes for me.
Moffi is the exact same age as Osimhen and he's finishing way above his xG which indicates its unlikely to be sustainable in the long term. Personally don't see him as being anywhere near Osimhen's level. His non penalty xG is in the 37th percentile compared to Osimhen in the 97th.
He just lists all attributes you can think of from a complete striker
.Eventually he has to prioritize which attributes are more important to him, as every strikers have those attributes but at different level of degrees. Ronaldo and Halland have all those but on different level for some attributes.
Last edited:
Don't think we should spend big on this at all.
I think Martial needs competition and rotation, so we should be looking for someone at his level that can give us a lot of strength in that position, rather than spending so much on someone only to end up like Lukaku did here. If there are no strikers that are class or have the potential to be world class, there is no point in the current market to actually spend so much. That 2017/2018 should have been a lesson. In today's game, no.9's come at a premium and clubs like Napoli or Inter aren't going to let Lauturo or Osimhen go for less that 75m. Neither are worth that price, and equivalent strikers arent either. Finding a striker like Ivan Toney, in a league that doesn't ask for the premium the Premier League does would be ideal.
The problem we have at the moment is that, when Martial is injured, we literally don't have anyone who can actually play the role of a lone 9 effectively. Martial isn't reliable enough to bank on ( similar to Cole prior to 99), so having an Ole would really do the trick. It's the reason why we were able to score so many goals in the 10/11 season without Rooney having the best form. If you have two strikers (Berbatov/Hernandez, Cole/Ole, Anelka/Wright, Drogba/Gudjohnson, Benzema/Higuain etc) who can rotate with one another and are good quality, it's actually better than having a solitary Harry Kane
I think Martial needs competition and rotation, so we should be looking for someone at his level that can give us a lot of strength in that position, rather than spending so much on someone only to end up like Lukaku did here. If there are no strikers that are class or have the potential to be world class, there is no point in the current market to actually spend so much. That 2017/2018 should have been a lesson. In today's game, no.9's come at a premium and clubs like Napoli or Inter aren't going to let Lauturo or Osimhen go for less that 75m. Neither are worth that price, and equivalent strikers arent either. Finding a striker like Ivan Toney, in a league that doesn't ask for the premium the Premier League does would be ideal.
The problem we have at the moment is that, when Martial is injured, we literally don't have anyone who can actually play the role of a lone 9 effectively. Martial isn't reliable enough to bank on ( similar to Cole prior to 99), so having an Ole would really do the trick. It's the reason why we were able to score so many goals in the 10/11 season without Rooney having the best form. If you have two strikers (Berbatov/Hernandez, Cole/Ole, Anelka/Wright, Drogba/Gudjohnson, Benzema/Higuain etc) who can rotate with one another and are good quality, it's actually better than having a solitary Harry Kane
Depay on loan till end of season wouldn't be the worst in the world. No way Osimhen or Toney etc are going anywhere in January and we need cover for Martial given Ronaldo will (hopefully) be leaving.
Absolutely agree that we need strikers to rotate. In 1999, the year we won the treble, we had Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Solskjaer, four top strikers, who scored 24, 29, 5 and 18 goals respectively that season. It was the two "reserves" Sheringham and Solskjaer that came off the bench to both score in the Champions League final.
I would love to bring in Gakpo, Sesko and Moukoko to rotate with Martial, and I think all three would cost lest than a Martinez, Osimhen, Kane or Toney.
4 is an overkill , SAF had that because he played 2 strikers upfront.
We just need one fit striker. I don't consider Martial as a starter.
At least 60m, more likely at least 70m. Osimhen will be at least 80m. No big difference.
I appreciate that SAF played two out and out strikers, but arguably Gakpo, Moukoko and Martial could all play as the number 10 or as a wide striker alongside Sesko, and Martial is only fit for 50% of a season.
However, the main difference between 99 and now is the number of substitutes allowed. Strikers are the most substituted position, when a team is chasing a game, the manager will either switch things up front, or throw on an extra striker.
In the FA Cup Final of 99, top scorer Yorke was rested for the Champions League Final, Keane went off injured early on and Sheringham was brought on alongside Cole, with Solskjaer moved to the wing. Sheringham scored the opening goal, and had a hand in the other.
A few days later in the Champions League Final, Yorke and Cole started, Sheringham replaced the winger Blomqvist, and Solskjaer replaced Cole. Once again, Sheringham scored United's opener, and then set up the second, scored by Solskjaer.
A successful team needs lots of options they can rely on, to cover injuries, suspensions, loss of form, too many games, change in tactics, and just generally to freshen things up. The league game against Villa is a classic example of how we missed a few players from the starting XI, and we looked awful.
In my opinion, our ideal squad would have 3 keepers, 8 defenders, 6 midfielders 4 wingers and 4 strikers (25 in total), plus a few kids. At the moment, I think ETH has about 12-13 players he trusts.
70m for Toney would be a bargain. Nunez numbers would be reasonable.
One Ivan Toney please. He's good.
Thuram is available for free next summer.
He is an absolute beast a team player and very fast.
He is an absolute beast a team player and very fast.
Get Felix on loan in January, while courting Moukoko to sign in summer.
If he comes good, excellent. If not, we could also try for Toney or Jonathan David.
If he comes good, excellent. If not, we could also try for Toney or Jonathan David.
Saw BMGBs game against Dortmund on Friday, huuuge night for Thuram. He is having a great year in the Bundesliga and I’ve always liked him.
But I have to say that I am a little concerned about his first touch and skill level from a Premier League POV. He gets away with a first touch that leaves the ball 5 feet from him in the Bundesliga, with passes that aren’t super crisp etc. Would he in the PL?
Hands down, if Ronaldo leaves and we only have Martial who is injured 90% of the time I rather have Marcus Thuram than nothing. But vs other candidates I am not sure if he comes out on top.
Toney is a very good player, but also a clear level below some of the more elite options who would cost a lot. So in his case it's just a question of price and availability. Is he available for a good enough price that it's worth opting for him over better talents and diverting the resources elsewhere?
Which is an impossible question for us to answer from the outside really as we don't know the prices involved. Though ETH was correct when he noted that English players tend to be relatively expensive, so it would be somewhat surprising to me if Toney was available for a sufficiently reasonable price.
Which is an impossible question for us to answer from the outside really as we don't know the prices involved. Though ETH was correct when he noted that English players tend to be relatively expensive, so it would be somewhat surprising to me if Toney was available for a sufficiently reasonable price.