Has ever worked a midfield with no CM? Don't think so...
The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield
- Thread starter Malone_Post
- Start date
I predict that this thread will crop up on the top page of Redcafe numerous times this season
Our midfield
I’d like to have seen us hijack Roma’s bid to get Paredes from PSG. He’d offer us something different in midfield being more like a Carrick type who sets the tempo and passes exceptionally well… and he’s going for less money than we got for Fred. Sadly, it’ll never happen.
We'd need a striker capable of heading the ball to do that - we don't have one at the club. Anyway, we're better than that - I agree we should be looking to play on the break rather than attempt to control possession, but in practical terms that should mean a side that looks more like United 06-09 than Tony Pulis' Stoke City.
Definitely not going to work if the idea of exploiting wide areas has to come from Garnacho/Antony and AWB i know that much.
Our trio would get bulldozed by Caicedo, Enzo and Lavia.
This isn’t really specific to today’s match, nor is it really specific to this midfield, but I’m not sure where else to put this question.
Why does our midfield and attack always look so lacking in physicality compared to other teams? A good example today is Cunha who seemed able to just run through multiple players at will. Even in games where we’ve won, there always seem to be an opposition player or two who are able to do this, but no one in our team ever seems to be able to. You don’t see anyone with that running power or physical presence. And this has seemed to be the case for the last few managers.
Is this a setup issue or a personnel issue?
Why does our midfield and attack always look so lacking in physicality compared to other teams? A good example today is Cunha who seemed able to just run through multiple players at will. Even in games where we’ve won, there always seem to be an opposition player or two who are able to do this, but no one in our team ever seems to be able to. You don’t see anyone with that running power or physical presence. And this has seemed to be the case for the last few managers.
Is this a setup issue or a personnel issue?
They can't because none of them is a possession player so if you can't keep the ball you are always vulnerable to the counter. It gets worse when you have a sluggish Casemiro and maybe Ten Hag doesn't know it but Luke Shaw isn't the smartest bloke around so all these instructions about inverting and underlapping are a bit too much for him. We will get slaughtered by better teams if ETH doesn't wisen up quickly.
Well you are right. But it would take somebody like prime Kante to make it work. Though as @glazed mentioned, even he would struggle and functioned best when paired with a deeper midfielder like Jorginho who had some defensive ability too go with his top level passing ability. We have neither.
Even if we had the best DM around that could cover ground amazingly well, Bruno and Mount is just a bad balance ahead of that. We should have found a go between that could supplement Casemiro and Bruno. In my opinion Caicedo was that man.
It's interesting but I think it's largely trying to copy City. I think City have done it to help beat teams that pack the back line as it allows more options to rotate across the front, different runners in behind and to play between the lines with more option.
The issue is that City have defenders that have more class on the ball than our better players. John Stones played us off the park in the FA Cup final when he stepped into midfield. Their defenders are essentially their deep playmakers. Arsenal might make it work because their team is far better in possession and under pressure. Us however, its just not suitable for our players. I had hoped ETH would have more of an affect on improving us in possession, but that hasn't been the case really, not to a good enough extent.
Unfortunately I think that's inevitable now, we simply aren't going to buy a new midfield anytime soon.
That’s just the problem. When mount signed I expected either a different style of football or mount to play deeper. The thing about Mason Mount is he’s clearly an adaptable footballer. Many great managers have altered players and put them in different roles to great success so I genuinely thought Ten Hag signed him with this thought process in mind. However the Mount were seeing is the Mount from before. He’s not doing anything to alter his game and so it’s making our set up look like a complete mess.
Agree with you. It doesn't work as a three on or off the ball. Amazing the people at the club thought it would.
Abandoning it in the first game says it all.
Drives me nuts stuff like this. Building a cohesive team doesn't need to be this complicated.
Yeah I'm starting to think this is the case. We just dont have players that are obsessed with the ball and can control any sort of rythm. And we dont even try to buy any of those players.
Happened to a lot of people. Being excellent at pressing high or being a good defensive attacker does not mean you are good defensively. Positioning is as important as anything. Perhaps its a tactical problem for ETH to solve but this midfield will struggle on the transition..and it will happen a lot as they won't control the game as well as we'd like.
I don’t understand how this happens after an entire pre-season working together. I hate seeing Bruno this high up the pitch.
This is on the manager. I dont believe that these players are dumb enough to not even offer themselves as a passing option.
Because they are lacking in physicality. Bruno, Antony, Rashford, Garnacho, Mount can run but they are easily pushed of the ball. Casemiro is strong but can't run. We might be the weakest team physically in the league.
It was one thing (maybe the only thing) Rangnick pointed out that he was right on.
I think it's a personnel issue. We have very few physical players that can ball carry through the midfield. The only midfielder that can do it is McTominay. It's probably his best asset, but his all around game is nowhere near good enough. I also think Shaw and AWB are quite physical, and can ball carry well. Nobody else in the squad does it/is capable of it.
Our midfield lacks steel. Even though Mount is better than Eriksen defensively, he's still not the most physical player. I expect us to see players running straight through our midfield quite regularly.
I don't think he's good enough, might be worth a shot though if we get desperate.
It was very strange how Wolves were able to mount so many attacks in such a short space of time. Keeping the ball should be basic for players at this level.
Yeah the jury is already out after one game, especially when our press is so half arsed. Eriksen may be playing more games than we thought.
But it helps no one when you have pissed £60m down the drain buying a player for that tactic with little to no research on how it would work in a competitive game. What scares me is that this is a potential bottom three team this season, what if our season opener was Liverpool and we came in with such a weak midfield?
You saw it immediately in the first 10 minutes. Onana was on the ball. Wolves went man-to-man and not a soul moved to the find the ball to begin progressing it. It went to the centre backs and they couldn’t find anyone else.
I’m sure the manager will think tonight was atrocious. He won’t have been happy with that. We’ve generally been very good at home under him. That was worse than anything we served up at home last season.
Oh I agree with you on the defence, which is why I specified the midfield and the forward line. All of Shaw, Dalot and AWB are powerful runners, Shaw especially.
Solid points. Don’t remember Ralf saying that but then he said everything was bad so I started filtering him out after a while
Bruno pretty consistently plays like this. It must be tactical. He plays deeper in midfield for Portugal. There are very few games I remember him playing deeper in midfielder for us. When he has, he's usually played extremely well.
Bruno will have to play deeper, there's no getting away from it. He looked great there at times last season, and definitely has it in his locker. I imagine we weren't quite expecting Wolves to play like 1970s Brazil, and that's part of the reason why we left Casemiro so exposed but Their manager even said it in his post game interview, all they did was try and create 4 versus 3 through the middle but because we were so advanced and gave the ball away over 80 times, it became 3v1 most of the time in there. It was shocking stuff, and could have been fixed by asking Bruno just to sit, the fact we allowed it to keep happening doesn't bode well. Feel like we just showed up and thought we would win today, expecting a much better performance versus Spurs.
huh? He's just made him captain
It wasn't a very positive first game for this lineup. Just didn't work to be blunt. We looked weak, lacking tempo, control and creativity.
Open wider than Kerry Katona.
Yep. He’s a midfielder for me and not a 10. At his best receiving the ball deeper with the game in front of him and options to pass to.
I'd love to see Mount as the 10. Play Bruno deeper where he has a bit more time to think and potentially make more measured passing.
Such an overrated player. Yes, he can pull off some amazing assists and passes but most of the time he cant even do the simple 5-10 yard passes right. So frustrating and I would take odegaard over him in a heartbeat. A possession based team like ten hag needs more players like odegaard and less players like Bruno.
It won’t work. He cannot defend to save his life. We need an amrabat in there beside the fading Casemiro. Someone who can
Control and keep possession like scholes or Carrick used to, but has the bite, positional know how and 6th sense to cut things out.
I really do like seeing him play deeper in midfield. He helps us to progress with his long range passing.
This game worries me, because it reminds me of what kept happening during the early portion of 21/22. We pushed the midfield up high. We lose the ball and teams ran straight through us every game. ETH has to change the setup.
Why do we have an obsession with signing players & playing them out of position? Is there any other team that does it?
It's clear in this setup that Shaw, Martinez, and to some extent the right back are supposed to do most of the deeper buildup (which is a worry in itself when your RB is AWB, as reasonable as he was tonight). He wants Bruno and Mount receiving it between the lines and turning with the pace and power of Rashford and Hojlund to be opening up space.
Whether that actually works in reality...I'm not sure. I think you need more consistency of build up. Even teams that play very attacking setups tend to have a midfielder that will knit things together (see Rodri for an elite example). Casemiro isn't the best at that. Maybe we put the cart before the horse with this idea.
However it does need a bit more time. Preseason and this game are not promising but it's quite an extreme way of playing that may take some knitting together.
Whether that actually works in reality...I'm not sure. I think you need more consistency of build up. Even teams that play very attacking setups tend to have a midfielder that will knit things together (see Rodri for an elite example). Casemiro isn't the best at that. Maybe we put the cart before the horse with this idea.
However it does need a bit more time. Preseason and this game are not promising but it's quite an extreme way of playing that may take some knitting together.
We had them last year and the approach has been to make it even worse, it doesn't make any sense.
It was so obvious we needed de Jong. So he didn't want to come. Our scouts have to identify a quality player with similar attributes.
I don't buy that there are no players out there like him.
Every team now presses. If you can't deal with it you go nowhere.
We've spent a fortune again and didn't do anything to address our inability to deal with pressure and pass the ball from deep.
I don't buy that there are no players out there like him.
Every team now presses. If you can't deal with it you go nowhere.
We've spent a fortune again and didn't do anything to address our inability to deal with pressure and pass the ball from deep.
Very true. The profile of our midfielders makes zero sense for a team that wants to be possession based.
Not one midfielder in our team is press resistant in deeper areas of pitch. Mainoo is probably the best and that says everything.
Fairly, things do take a period of time to work, with the players organically finding their collective feet and growing together. But, if you can't even make an impression against an absolutely awful Wolves side, at home - a Wolves side who look dead certs to be fighting to stay in the division - you are starting so far behind the proverbial line that even the best of what the system with these personnel is supposed to provide, mightn't be worth the batterings it took to get them up to any kind of par. Fitness may also be factored, but the questions around: is the final product worth the grief? Still remain.
And I said this so many times: we're going to run Casemiro into the ground by November if we don't improve emphatically when it comes to controlling games and preventing them from being these wild, back and forth affairs.
The midfield has no connective tissue; a player who wants to link the play and thread the ball time and time and time again to others in red - the plan with all this verticality is getting the ball from A to C as quickly as possible, but if you're not able to control "B" as and when you want, you're creating a rod for your own back and a very chaotic and exhausting style of play.
Mount is getting a lot of stick, like he's the problem, but the reality is Bruno isn't a central midfielder either, so it's not one will thrive whilst the other lacks; instead we have two players who do their best work going forward from the top-end of central midfield, not working deeper into the central areas securing and settling play before then being progressive. I am not convinced you can bridge that because you're working away from the natural instincts of players and when the pressure is on, it's only natural to revert to type. Problem is, that pressure shouldn't be on against a side like Wolves - the top 10 teams in the league? Sure, but it's a bad sign against relegation fodder.
We can talk about what's supposed to happen in terms of support from inversion to flank Casemiro, but if we lose the ball so rapidly as we did today, that midfield adjustment doesn't even have enough time to form, let alone be settled and effective - what we saw today is what many of us have spoken about, and that's: the players high up the pitch using the ball poorly, losing it, and leaving Casemiro in no-mans land with far too much space to cover by himself.
ETH isn't Van Gaal, and he's likely to stick with this for quite some time yet. Ultimately it would be fantastic if he's proven right in doing so, but I think the opposite is going to happen and we're going to face some adversity or hammering(s) that force change. Why? because controlling games is far too difficult for the players we have. Perhaps we get a midfielder or two in with the qualities needed to control games, but if they're then utilised, doesn't it mark the end of this project anyway? I think ultimately, one will assume the AM and the other will go to the flank with whoever comes in taking over those #8 CM/AM duties whilst being the connector this midfield sorely lacks.
And I said this so many times: we're going to run Casemiro into the ground by November if we don't improve emphatically when it comes to controlling games and preventing them from being these wild, back and forth affairs.
The midfield has no connective tissue; a player who wants to link the play and thread the ball time and time and time again to others in red - the plan with all this verticality is getting the ball from A to C as quickly as possible, but if you're not able to control "B" as and when you want, you're creating a rod for your own back and a very chaotic and exhausting style of play.
Mount is getting a lot of stick, like he's the problem, but the reality is Bruno isn't a central midfielder either, so it's not one will thrive whilst the other lacks; instead we have two players who do their best work going forward from the top-end of central midfield, not working deeper into the central areas securing and settling play before then being progressive. I am not convinced you can bridge that because you're working away from the natural instincts of players and when the pressure is on, it's only natural to revert to type. Problem is, that pressure shouldn't be on against a side like Wolves - the top 10 teams in the league? Sure, but it's a bad sign against relegation fodder.
We can talk about what's supposed to happen in terms of support from inversion to flank Casemiro, but if we lose the ball so rapidly as we did today, that midfield adjustment doesn't even have enough time to form, let alone be settled and effective - what we saw today is what many of us have spoken about, and that's: the players high up the pitch using the ball poorly, losing it, and leaving Casemiro in no-mans land with far too much space to cover by himself.
ETH isn't Van Gaal, and he's likely to stick with this for quite some time yet. Ultimately it would be fantastic if he's proven right in doing so, but I think the opposite is going to happen and we're going to face some adversity or hammering(s) that force change. Why? because controlling games is far too difficult for the players we have. Perhaps we get a midfielder or two in with the qualities needed to control games, but if they're then utilised, doesn't it mark the end of this project anyway? I think ultimately, one will assume the AM and the other will go to the flank with whoever comes in taking over those #8 CM/AM duties whilst being the connector this midfield sorely lacks.