The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield

[luke511]

This. Good post. I said this before, I would play Bruno on the right instead of Antony. You don't need someone who is left-footed (who is v v average anyway) to play on the right. But we someone alongside Casimero. Seems like SMT will stay unless we get a Amrabat.

For the love of god no.

 

[sullydnl]

I'd argue that none of Casemiro, Mount or Bruno are suitable for that system.

Casemiro needs a player in midfield next to him and Mount/Bruno each need two midfielders behind them.

A key piece of context here (which I don't have the answer to) is why this shift towards that particular set-up is suddenly taking place?

It's clearly not a coincidence that all these managers have decided to move towards these double AM systems at the same time, they're obviously responding to tactical shifts in the game, but without knowing how costly it would/wouldn't be for us not to follow suit it's hard to judge the wisdom of wanting to move us in that direction too.

Because in isolation this isn't what I would have thought the obvious set-up for our team in particular would be, but clearly something is prompting managers to think this is the solution du jour.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I'd argue that none of Casemiro, Mount or Bruno are suitable for that system.

Casemiro needs a player in midfield next to him and Mount/Bruno each need two midfielders behind them.

I think Mount/Bruno can play there, but we'll see.

It was the first competitive game with this set-up. Maybe we improve.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

The major problem of this system is a 9, sounds odd but they need an outlet to hold the ball up but we dont have it..

 

[FootballHQ]

I think Mount/Bruno can play there, but we'll see.

It was the first competitive game with this set-up. Maybe we improve.

You won't play it v Spurs, Eriksen will return and can see you changing both wide players and having Sancho and Mount out there.

 

[Berbasbullet]

The lack of muscle worries me in this trio.

 

[Dominos]

People are too obsessed with 433 vs 4231.

Whatever the set up, you need a mix of qualities in your 3 midfield players - a player with very high ball retention and a high volume of passes, a player who can run with the ball, a player with recovery pace defensively, a player with physicality, a player with creativity, a player with goals, a player who can tackle, a player who can cover a lot of ground.

We have some of the qualities, but we're severely lacking in others. Bringing Mount in to partner Casemiro and Bruno will likely leave us lacking physicality, defensive stability, recovery pace, and none of them are really a player who can set the tempo by making a lot of passes and reliably keep possession whilst progressing the play up the field.

It also doesn't help that our ball retention is horrendous all over the pitch so we are gifting the opposition a chance to hit us in transition far too often. If you don't give the ball away then you can get away with not being as defensively solid in midfield, but when you're constantly losing the ball needlessly the opposition will have a field day.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

You won't play it v Spurs, Eriksen will return and can see you changing both wide players and having Sancho and Mount out there.

Rather not see that honestly.

 

[luke511]

The major problem of this system is a 9, sounds odd but they need an outlet to hold the ball up but we dont have it..

Nah, it’s down to the positioning of the no.8. Not enough legs in deep midfield to get the ball up in possession, or defend out of possession.

 

[glazed]

Casemiro was showing a lot of signs of lack of energy and mobility towards the end of last season. I don't think he can fill that kind of space on his own. I'm not sure prime Kante could. It's gonna be a problem.

 

[Borys]

People bigging up Mount before we signed him were saying he was a managers dream, because he's so intelligent and flexible and can carry out tactics brilliantly. That clearly wasn't the case today

Obviously he deserves time, but it wasn't a good start

How did you come to that conclusion? It seemed to me he was following the instructions today. I really don't think you can say he was bad tonight.

 

[El Zoido]

We didn’t give Mount #7 to be backup to Bruno. This midfield will play us out of contention for anything in short order, until it’s too late.

 

[Dominos]

One of Mount or Fernandes needs to play deeper for.it to work. Casemiro was completely isolated. I think Bruno has shown he can play well from deeper positions and we need to revert to this to have any chance of them being a competent midfield three.

Bruno's ball retention is too horrendous to play a deep role in midfield consistently.

Keep his losses of possession high up the field and have players behind him to defend the counter when he gives the ball away.

 

[Dominos]

You won't play it v Spurs, Eriksen will return and can see you changing both wide players and having Sancho and Mount out there.

There's no way he'll change it after 1 game.

Managers are incredibly stubborn. It will be 6 or 7 bad performances in a row before he abandons it.

Hopefully it starts to work and we don't need to change it. But I doubt it.

 

[Giant Midget]

A key piece of context here (which I don't have the answer to) is why this shift towards that particular set-up is suddenly taking place?

It's clearly not a coincidence that all these managers have decided to move towards these double AM systems at the same time, they're obviously responding to tactical shifts in the game, but without knowing how costly it would/wouldn't be for us not to follow suit it's hard to judge the wisdom of wanting to move us in that direction too.

Because in isolation this isn't what I would have thought the obvious set-up for our team in particular would be, but clearly something is prompting managers to think this is the solution du jour.

I would guess the idea is that the inverted fullbacks fulfill the function that the deeper midfielder would.

 

[Lentwood]

There's nothing wrong with the idea, its the execution of the idea that's badly lacking.

ETH was right to point out how cheaply we turned the ball over tonight. Until we can keep the ball better and sustain attacks, we will keep getting countered on.

We have to remember this place was dead against the double-pivot under Ole, and now that a manager is trying to move away from that, all I have seen is people posting about buying Caicedo to play next to Casemiro.

We didn't really play ETHs style of football last season, so there's still going to be tonnes to work on. It was very poor tonight but we should be giving it time

 

[FootballHQ]

Rather not see that honestly.

Eriksen starting?

He'll be needed for those types of games and then guessing Mount infront and then Fernandes out wide but then he has to be more disciplined and that can be an issue on the road.

Something that will have to be solved if Amrabat is your only other midfield signing.

 

[luke511]

There's nothing wrong with the idea, its the execution of the idea that's badly lacking.

ETH was right to point out how cheaply we turned the ball over tonight. Until we can keep the ball better and sustain attacks, we will keep getting countered on.

We have to remember this place was dead against the double-pivot under Ole, and now that a manager is trying to move away from that, all I have seen is people posting about buying Caicedo to play next to Casemiro.

We didn't really play ETHs style of football last season, so there's still going to be tonnes to work on. It was very poor tonight but we should be giving it time

No. We weren’t against a double pivot, we were against McFred playing there. Neither of them being a proper 6.

 

[Offside]

We have to be in for a technical midfield player in the next few weeks. Neville was joking saying we need Caicedo and Lavia but they’re not what we need either. Pep knows exactly what he’s doing going for Kovacic, players like that are so underrated. I’d kill for him and he’s not exactly Iniesta. Why do you think Chelsea won the CL with such an average attack.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Eriksen starting?

He'll be needed for those types of games and then guessing Mount infront and then Fernandes out wide but then he has to be more disciplined and that can be an issue on the road.

Something that will have to be solved if Amrabat is your only other midfield signing.

I'd rather see this system being bedded in for a few games and not get ditched after 1 poor showing.

If Mount was bought to be shifted out wide for games vs the big 6, then we shouldn't have bought him in the 1st place.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The major problem of this system is a 9, sounds odd but they need an outlet to hold the ball up but we dont have it..

The problem is it is two 10’s playing as 8’s and poor old Casemiro behind, who ain’t the most dynamic or rapid player, just facing runner after runner.

 

[Olril18]

In my opinion the 3 can work only if one of mount or Fernandes play deeper next to Casemiro,otherwise I don’t see it working out.
I have been worried since the lens game. They had 14 shots against us at old trafford.
truly worrying

 

[theatreofdreams777]

Casemiro - Fred - Bruno midfield was a better and more balanced one and even that one had problems as Bruno doesn't really play like a midfield player.

We needed a better #8 instead of Bruno but we've gone and signed another #10 for #8 role.

I feel sorry for Casemiro. He'll get plenty of undeserved stick this season.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

People are too obsessed with 433 vs 4231.

Whatever the set up, you need a mix of qualities in your 3 midfield players - a player with very high ball retention and a high volume of passes, a player who can run with the ball, a player with recovery pace defensively, a player with physicality, a player with creativity, a player with goals, a player who can tackle, a player who can cover a lot of ground.

We have some of the qualities, but we're severely lacking in others. Bringing Mount in to partner Casemiro and Bruno will likely leave us lacking physicality, defensive stability, recovery pace, and none of them are really a player who can set the tempo by making a lot of passes and reliably keep possession whilst progressing the play up the field.

It also doesn't help that our ball retention is horrendous all over the pitch so we are gifting the opposition a chance to hit us in transition far too often. If you don't give the ball away then you can get away with not being as defensively solid in midfield, but when you're constantly losing the ball needlessly the opposition will have a field day.

Agreed. People in preseason loved pointing to Arsenal/City and saying "we can set up like that too!" but fail to realize that both teams are stacked with players that retain the ball under pressure at an elite level. We don't, which isn't the worse thing if we are lethal when facing pressure (remember the 19/20 lockdown team?), but at the moment we aren't anywhere close to lethal with our chances and we lack any sort of carrying threat in the middle of the park. Cunha just tonight showed how valuable a player that can bypass pressure can be.

 

[The United]

There's nothing wrong with the idea, its the execution of the idea that's badly lacking.

ETH was right to point out how cheaply we turned the ball over tonight. Until we can keep the ball better and sustain attacks, we will keep getting countered on.

We have to remember this place was dead against the double-pivot under Ole, and now that a manager is trying to move away from that, all I have seen is people posting about buying Caicedo to play next to Casemiro.

We didn't really play ETHs style of football last season, so there's still going to be tonnes to work on. It was very poor tonight but we should be giving it time

I mean, anyone can claim that their style of football is a mixture of Pep's and Klopp's balls. But if a team can't do it, that is not their fault.

We don't hire managers for their ideas. We hire them to execute and implement them properly. I am not saying ETH is shit or something. But it has to get to him at some point.

 

[Lentwood]

I mean, anyone can claim that their style of football is a mixture of Pep's and Klopp's balls. But if a team can't do it, that is not their fault.

We don't hire managers for their ideas. We hire them to execute and implement them properly. I am not saying ETH is shit or something. But it has to get to him at some point.

Well yeah but that's my point...we're still in the process of implementing those ideas. Onana and Mount have had one game. We still haven't seen an ETH-signed CF play a game for the club.

This season's football won't be like last, its going to be very, very different...and I think it will take time to bed-in

 

[pocco]

My point is that he is no more relevant to the midfield discussion than Sancho. He is not a central midfielder and I don't think he was signed to replace Eriksen, but rather as a deputy/rotation option for Bruno and occasional right-sided attacking midfielder. I wasn't in favour of signing him, but could just about understand the logic if he was coming in to effectively replace Van de Beek, albeit rather expensively.

The media existing in a state of cluelessness with regards to most things football, is nothing new. The UK media must know full well that Mount isn't a central midfielder, so perhaps they were being wilfully ignorant in this case.

But they were right? You're being ignorant here. I think it was Simon Stone who said he was reshaping the midfield to play both Bruno and Mount, which is exactly what is happening. Don't you agree? What we saw tonight is exactly what the journalists said they were told was the plan.

Also, why else would our primary target be a replacement for VDB? Why would we be only interested in budget midfielders like Amrabat? All the evidence is there before us that he's decided to change our midfield. He clearly wants Casemiro sitting alone, with either Shaw or Martinez tucked up next to him in certain phases of play.

 

[CtrlAltDeLigt]

Most midfield bypassing runs from Cunha and Sarabia came from us losing balls in the opposition 3rd either after just winning it back, or losing it outright due to press

On a list of instances our players were too weak on the ball, and simply lacked physicality. If Aaron wan bissaka is looking like the best holder, there’s something wrong with overall performance.

Don’t want to be reactive, but they’ve really got to sort this out next week, got to be stronger and faster on the ball. The players only seem to react when they lose badly, they’ve got to show they don’t need every win to be a reaction to a loss.

Lastly, why the heck does Rashford look so uninterested, he cut a frustrated figure on the pitch, and was the least productive in terms of pure effort.

 

[Yoro99]

Bruno is club captain, mount is the new marque signing number 7 both are gonna be starting for the foreseeable future. But as everyone has said there is no balance. The only way this is working is if we sign another midfielder to partner Casemiro and play
4-2-2-2.

Otherwise we are f with Case, Bruno, Mount as a midfield 3

 

[pocco]

Ive no clue what Ten Hag has planned

Casemiro totally isolated, Mount and Bruno pressing far too high, our midfield non-existent

needs addressed asap

For a manager who harped on about wanting De Jong why not buy a De Jong style possession focused midfielder

I made this point in the summer. We went from De Jong to Casemiro then never went back for a De Jong type and went for a completely different player in Mount. Hard to tell exactly what the plan is anymore, or even if there was a specific plan to begin with.

 

[Ludens the Red]

My point is that he is no more relevant to the midfield discussion than Sancho. He is not a central midfielder and I don't think he was signed to replace Eriksen, but rather as a deputy/rotation option for Bruno and occasional right-sided attacking midfielder. I wasn't in favour of signing him, but could just about understand the logic if he was coming in to effectively replace Van de Beek, albeit rather expensively.

The media existing in a state of cluelessness with regards to most things football, is nothing new. The UK media must know full well that Mount isn't a central midfielder, so perhaps they were being wilfully ignorant in this case.

With all due respect if you think Mason Mount came here for 250k a week for 55 million to be a deputy/rotation right midfield option then youre out of your mind.
Same kinda thinking as those who think Raya has gone to Arsenal to be number two.

 

[Red the Bear]

We might have to change formation, because I don't think this is going to work in a midfield 3 but we'll see.

 

[Bluelion7]

A key piece of context here (which I don't have the answer to) is why this shift towards that particular set-up is suddenly taking place?

It's clearly not a coincidence that all these managers have decided to move towards these double AM systems at the same time, they're obviously responding to tactical shifts in the game, but without knowing how costly it would/wouldn't be for us not to follow suit it's hard to judge the wisdom of wanting to move us in that direction too.

Because in isolation this isn't what I would have thought the obvious set-up for our team in particular would be, but clearly something is prompting managers to think this is the solution du jour.

It’s an excellent question, because Poch is doing it as well. We saw it most of pre season. It’s not just the 2 AMs, it’s a 4 player box in the midfield. And while they all end up with that essential formation, how they line up and transition to that shape changes from manager to manager.

Ultimately I think the reason we want aLavia as well (although part of me still thinks Santos is more suited) is that we can roatate Enzo forward, Nkunku (or Olise … or … Carney) tucks in at the other upper corner, with Caicedo and Lavia at the base.

This last game we didn’t use the square until the second half, and we did it by rotating Colwill forward.

I guess the idea s to overload the midfield area while still getting wdth (you need excellent FBs for this). I saw somewhere where hat pep primarily gets credit for it? But it does seem to be the fad

 

[Marwood]

With all due respect if you think Mason Mount came here for 250k a week for 55 million to be a deputy/rotation right midfield option then youre out of your mind.
Same kinda thinking as those who think Raya has gone to Arsenal to be number two.

Mount might have different expectations but a rotation player is exactly what he'll be.

Most fans know before a ball is kicked this midfield won't work. It isn't balanced.

I'm always baffled when supporters can see basic stuff the decision makers at the club can't.

We should have used the Mount money to buy a proper CM.

 

[El-Manos]

A midfield of enzo Caicedo & Lavia would destroy this lot. Hopefully we get our shit together somehow.

 

[AneRu]

No build up passer who is assured on the ball, Casemiro's legs going and if Erik doesn't see it and bring a younger DM he getting sacked by November like Ole. Remember it was Ole's failure to invest in a DM that eventually got him, team lost so many matches, heads dropped and divisions surfaced. By November he was gone, hopefully ETH sees it soon or he is done here. These players are fragile, doesn't take much for the likes of Bruno and Rashford to lose their heads.

 

[RuudTom83]

The major problem of this system is a 9, sounds odd but they need an outlet to hold the ball up but we dont have it..

^ 100% ^

You hope in the coming weeks the team will have a fit Hojlund to hold up the ball. Along with Onana and Licha…that would give the team 3 solid players who can get hold of the game.

Leaving the much critiqued midfield trio to focus on controlling the midfield.

It’s a work in progress. Thankfully United got away with it tonight.

 

[Infra-red]

But they were right? You're being ignorant here. I think it was Simon Stone who said he was reshaping the midfield to play both Bruno and Mount, which is exactly what is happening. Don't you agree? What we saw tonight is exactly what the journalists said they were told was the plan.

Also, why else would our primary target be a replacement for VDB? Why would we be only interested in budget midfielders like Amrabat? All the evidence is there before us that he's decided to change our midfield. He clearly wants Casemiro sitting alone, with either Shaw or Martinez tucked up next to him in certain phases of play.

With all due respect if you think Mason Mount came here for 250k a week for 55 million to be a deputy/rotation right midfield option then youre out of your mind.
Same kinda thinking as those who think Raya has gone to Arsenal to be number two.

If you are both right and I am wrong and Ten Hag really thinks a midfield of Casemiro sitting deep with Mount and Fernandes playing their usual #8/#10 roles is the way we should play this season, then hopefully tonight has given him pause for thought regarding the wisdom of that decision. That midfield setup has us at a massive disadvantage in any competitive game (outside perhaps of home matches against relegation fodder or lower league opponents in the cups).

 

[Marwood]

There's nothing wrong with the idea, its the execution of the idea that's badly lacking.

ETH was right to point out how cheaply we turned the ball over tonight. Until we can keep the ball better and sustain attacks, we will keep getting countered on.

We have to remember this place was dead against the double-pivot under Ole, and now that a manager is trying to move away from that, all I have seen is people posting about buying Caicedo to play next to Casemiro.

We didn't really play ETHs style of football last season, so there's still going to be tonnes to work on. It was very poor tonight but we should be giving it time

Is the problem with the execution the individuals though? Can that three ever execute it properly?

 

[FreakyJim]

When I dared suggesting in the Mount transfer thread that this midfield will be bad “off the ball”, I was quoted about 100 times in the space of a few minutes, basically called an idiot.

But anyway, Bruno, Casemiro, Rashford and I’d say most of our players aren’t suited for the football ETH wants us to play. We’re a counter attacking team that should just sit back and lump it forward. We should never ever try outplaying good teams.