The beginning of the end... (the original board vetoed Mourinho's transfer wish list thread)

[GM K]

I can see both points of view though.

On one hand (as far as Woodward/Glazer are concerned) he's pretty much pissed £400 Million away and had very little to show for it. But on the other, I do agree that more money needed to be spent to keep up. But how much? Where do you draw the line?

The likely thing that happened is that the board know that Jose isn't going to be around for a great deal longer and refused to throw more money at the problem and are about to try a different approach (the DoF news).

I think he will leave and they will get in this new DoF and really put in place a plan for the future and take the club forward.

He has pissed 400 million 'away'?


How do people reach such conclusions for goodness sake? I am fine with us having another manager but can we just be fair on this guy for once? How has he pissed 400 million away? For the first time in a long time, we now have something close to a strong core in that squad. A new manager right now will just need a few more additions and some work on the tactics and we'll be ready to go. Are we going to deny the very obvious reality that Pep who had a much better squad he took over has gone on to spend more? Plus the fact that he has a club structure where a proper football man is in charge of transfers and other football related things? When Jose said coming second last season was one of his best achievements, I knew exactly what he meant.

It is tiring the way we pound Jose in this place while taking away all contexts for fair judgement. I am a United fan and will like to see us playing heart racing football again while winning a truck load of trophies so no problem with hiring a manager who can deliver those but to piss on Jose's efforts is just plain ridiculous. Whether Jose stays or leaves, United will remain United. But let's criticize him fairly. My main issue with him is how he sets up the team to play in such a way that we do not consistently experience exhilarating football. I'll hang him for that. Other than that, I think he has been largely brilliant considering the circumstances. And even if some of our fans don't agree, which is fine, let us at least be fair on him when criticizing. Pogba, Bailly, Matic, Lindelöf, Zlatan, Lukaku and Fred have been very good buys. I am really praying that Sanchez will eventually come good though he has been very disappointing. To say Jose pissed off the money is unfair.

 

[GM K]

Quite a bit of sense but the bolded part is just
Also, how is the DoF signing due to Jose? Unless you mean that Jose's haphazard transfers and lack of philosphy have forced United to look for a DoF.

What is wrong with the bolded part?

Wasn't Pogba a United academy player?

I know the whole story of how he left for Juve and was developed there and we eventually bought him back for big money after he became a super star but that does not change the reality that he was a United academy player. My focus was on the academy players playing regularly not who developed them.

Andd about the DoF thing. Mourinho has now had two or three transfer windows with running battles with Ed about transfers. I am pretty sure that has everything to do with the sudden interest in hiring a DoF.

 

[arthurka]

I get us wanting Varane but he shouldn´t be the only player.
What I don´t get is us not even trying for a young fantastic player that is available for 35M € next summer and will surely go to Bayern as they have been tapping him up for months now.
Why we are not in for him I truely don´t get.

I understand why the board doesn´t want to buy all the older players on the expense of the younger once but we could do with couple of class players for this team.

 

[Murray3007]

Pereira, Lingard, Rashford, MacT, Pogba. That's 5 academy players Jose is playing.

Carrick is in management and could take over one day.

Director of Football about to be hired and this could transform United. Again thanks to Jose.

Searchlight now being thrown on the Blazers and Woodward. Again thanks to Jose.

Lukaku, Fred, Bailly, Lindelof, De Gea, Pogba, etc., a strong core for the team. Many thanks to Jose.

Back to the Champions League. Twice in a row now. Thanks to Jose.

After he has been sacked or fans push him out, I hope we will at least gov him some credit and remember him for some good. Right now, he seems like the worst thing to happen to United if the media and some fans are to be believed.

Pereira has played one game because matic was injured. the other 3 English boys are in and out the team, paying a world record fee for Pogba hardly seems like we can call him an academy player to be fair.
not sure the DOF is because of Jose, also his transfer dealings have been rather iffy. cant keep signing short term fix players for massive fee's even if we have great money coming in to the club, glazers and ed have backed Jose the last 2 summers, we payed 50m plus for a player from the Ukrainin league and also gave him 18m for a player who's played 5/6 games. if the right players are avaible then I think we would have went for them. the Core of the squad has potential but nothing else, potentially really you have De Gea and Pogba who really would have left if the right move came about. one of Bailly or Lindelof Jose wanted to replace, Fred I like the look off but Christ its been one game, and Lukaku scored 16 league goals last season hardly something to get excited about. one positive I have seen since Jose has came in is we seem to be getting good fee's for players we are selling now. something that never happened before.

 

[Murray3007]

I get us wanting Varane but he shouldn´t be the only player.
What I don´t get is us not even trying for a young fantastic player that is available for 35M € next summer and will surely go to Bayern as they have been tapping him up for months now.
Why we are not in for him I truely don´t get.

I understand why the board doesn´t want to buy all the older players on the expense of the younger once but we could do with couple of class players for this team.

what player is this ?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

what player is this ?

Pavard probably. To be fair for all we know we may have called his agent and be rebuffed and told he only wants Bayern.

 

[RedSky]

Not even close. About 30% less.

Klopp has also spent more as of the last window.

Last 3 Seasons Spending Totals:

City - £602,190,000
Chelsea - £530,400,000
United - £432,100,000
Liverpool - £430,130,000
Arsenal - £304,850,000
Tottenham - £205,100,000

Last 3 Seasons Selling Totals:
Chelsea - £355,900,000
Liverpool - £273,400,000
Tottenham - £156,100,000
City - £149,900,000
Arsenal - £138,950,000
United - £82,000,000

Looking at that you can see that Jose hasn't been asked to sell to buy (unlike Chelsea and Liverpool). While our spending is practically joint 3rd with Liverpool if you then look at net spend we'd be comfortably second.

Last 3 Seasons Net Spend:
City - £452,290,000
United - £350,100,000
Chelsea - £174,500,000
Arsenal - £165,900,000
Liverpool - £156,730,000
Tottenham - £49,000,000

Honestly don't think anyone can question that Jose hasn't been backed in the market. What we should be questioning is why we haven't recycled more of our players. City for example have sold 12 players valued over 5 million compared to our 6. Tottenham, Chelsea both on 9 players and Arsenal, Liverpool on 8. So we're either very bad at selling our players or Jose wants money while refusing to sell. The Net Spend is actually pretty interesting imo as it shows that we're a tier above Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool (all of whom have pretty similar values).

 

[Irish Jet]

Last 3 Seasons Spending Totals:

City - £602,190,000
Chelsea - £530,400,000
United - £432,100,000
Liverpool - £430,130,000
Arsenal - £304,850,000
Tottenham - £205,100,000

Last 3 Seasons Selling Totals:
Chelsea - £355,900,000
Liverpool - £273,400,000
Tottenham - £156,100,000
City - £149,900,000
Arsenal - £138,950,000
United - £82,000,000

Looking at that you can see that Jose hasn't been asked to sell to buy (unlike Chelsea and Liverpool). While our spending is practically joint 3rd with Liverpool if you then look at net spend we'd be comfortably second.

Last 3 Seasons Net Spend:
City - £452,290,000
United - £350,100,000
Chelsea - £174,500,000
Arsenal - £165,900,000
Liverpool - £156,730,000
Tottenham - £49,000,000

Honestly don't think anyone can question that Jose hasn't been backed in the market. What we should be questioning is why we haven't recycled more of our players. City for example have sold 12 players valued over 5 million compared to our 6. Tottenham, Chelsea both on 9 players and Arsenal, Liverpool on 8. So we're either very bad at selling our players or Jose wants money while refusing to sell. The Net Spend is actually pretty interesting imo as it shows that we're a tier above Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool (all of whom have pretty similar values).

Net spend is a pretty garbage stat when it comes to judging these managers over 3 season (Not saying you are btw). Basically just inidcates what assets they inherited at that time. City had so many they couldn’t even fill the squad and paid off some of their contracts to force them out. Of the three clubs the only real significant loss was Coutinho.

Pep, Klopp or Mourinho hardly signed any of the players they’re selling so thag Certianly nothing substantial. I highly doubt it’s Mourinho refusing to sell the players he never really uses. This was Neville’s point about how we’re still paying for the genuinely atrocious windows under LVG.

 

[Revan]

Net spend is a pretty garbage stat when it comes to judging these managers over 3 season (Not saying you are btw). Basically just inidcates what assets they inherited at that time. City had so many they couldn’t even fill the squad and paid off some of their contracts to force them out. Of the three clubs the only real significant loss was Coutinho.

Pep, Klopp or Mourinho hardly signed any of the players they’re selling so thag Certianly nothing substantial. I highly doubt it’s Mourinho refusing to sell the players he never really uses. This was Neville’s point about how we’re still paying for the genuinely atrocious windows under LVG.

It is mot though. You sell good players to get other good players. When you do that it is more a sideways move than improving. Klopp for example spent a lot on January and this summer, but he sold Coutinho for big money. Without doing so, he doesn't have the money to buy new players. Similarly, if we had to sell De Gea and then signed Oblak for 100m, no one would have said 'hey Mourinho spent a lot' because it was a sideways move, not an improvement.

We have spent significantly more under Mourinho than any other club bar City under Pep. We kept our best players while we added new ones, with the other clubs bar City needing to sell some of their best players in order to get new players. It is a pretty basic concept that some people refuse to understand.

Unless of course, we are talking about the period when Glazers didn't invest in the club. Then it all becomes about NET spent and how we spent less than Stoke.

 

[RedSky]

Net spend is a pretty garbage stat when it comes to judging these managers over 3 season (Not saying you are btw). Basically just inidcates what assets they inherited at that time. City had so many they couldn’t even fill the squad and paid off some of their contracts to force them out. Of the three clubs the only real significant loss was Coutinho.

Pep, Klopp or Mourinho hardly signed any of the players they’re selling so thag Certianly nothing substantial. I highly doubt it’s Mourinho refusing to sell the players he never really uses. This was Neville’s point about how we’re still paying for the genuinely atrocious windows under LVG.

Yet my point is that if LVG's window was so bad why haven't we sold more of those players, you can make up excuses like high wages, clubs not being interested etc. City dealt with that, we haven't. Fact is that we have the lowest amount of players leaving the club in the last 3 seasons, City have gotten rid of double the amount of players in the same time. What we don't know (anyone suggesting otherwise is bullshitting) is who controls it. Is it Jose who tells the club what the valuation of each player is and the club uses that as a benchmark or is it all down to Ed. If it's entirely Ed's responsibility then he's failing, if however Jose is valuing them too high then it's Joses' fault.

You can't just base a Manager on the money they spend, that's pretty silly. You have to also judge a Manager on the amount he's selling as those are squad assets (can be your best player like Coutinho for example). If you looked at Chelseas spending you'd be thinking they should be challenging for the title and yet they've also sold the highest amount and balancing those out shows that they've spent pretty much equal to Liverpool and Arsenal. You aren't going to buy a sofa for your house without selling the old one. Honestly question peoples understanding of finances if they don't look at net spend, it's like they skipped the trading bean lesson in primary school.

Anyway, point stands. Us and City are a tier (or more) ahead of our competition and id probably say that City are currently a tier ahead of us in their spending. So the real question is whether you think we should be on par with City, if you do then the club needs to back Jose a bit more. Personally I think that's unreasonable.

While we're talking bout the LvG Transfers, remaining players:

- Luke Shaw (Constant issues with all LvG/Jose)
- Marcos Rojo (Linked to Fenerbache)
- Ander Herrera (Contract expires next season, negotiating new deal)
- Matteo Darmian (He'll probably be sold by end of window)
- Anthony Martial (Jose wants him sold)

So it's looking like we'll probably keep hold of 4 of those players with Darmian moving on. Although Jose apparently wants both to stay till January...

 

[GM K]

Pereira has played one game because matic was injured. the other 3 English boys are in and out the team, paying a world record fee for Pogba hardly seems like we can call him an academy player to be fair.
not sure the DOF is because of Jose, also his transfer dealings have been rather iffy. cant keep signing short term fix players for massive fee's even if we have great money coming in to the club, glazers and ed have backed Jose the last 2 summers, we payed 50m plus for a player from the Ukrainin league and also gave him 18m for a player who's played 5/6 games. if the right players are avaible then I think we would have went for them. the Core of the squad has potential but nothing else, potentially really you have De Gea and Pogba who really would have left if the right move came about. one of Bailly or Lindelof Jose wanted to replace, Fred I like the look off but Christ its been one game, and Lukaku scored 16 league goals last season hardly something to get excited about. one positive I have seen since Jose has came in is we seem to be getting good fee's for players we are selling now. something that never happened before.

This is a poor attempt at discrediting all the good things happening at the club due largely to Jose. Whether it was due to Matic injured or not, doesn't Jose deserve some credit for how Pereira has improved and is now in the squad? Pereira himself has acknowledge this so why are you trying to discredit it? The three English boys going in and out of the team are still integral members of the squad, are they not? We saw the role McT played last season when we had many midfield players injured, didn't we? I can bet you that Jose's experience is forcing the hand of the club to get a DoF. Whether it is in a bid to eventually fire him or make his job easier, Jose has to do with the pursuit of a DoF. And how much is a player of Fred's quality worth in today's insane football market? Was Pep going to pay less for him in January? Let's get real here. I can go on and on.

The point is, we should give the guy sticks where he deserves it (and he does deserve sticks) but this idea that he has been terrible and has done little to nothing that's good for the club is just ridiculous to say the least.

 

[sunama]

I get us wanting Varane but he shouldn´t be the only player.
What I don´t get is us not even trying for a young fantastic player that is available for 35M € next summer and will surely go to Bayern as they have been tapping him up for months now.
Why we are not in for him I truely don´t get.

I understand why the board doesn´t want to buy all the older players on the expense of the younger once but we could do with couple of class players for this team.

You need to think from a business angle.
Let's say you buy some player few have heard of. He could be and older player or even a younger player, who is up and coming.
How can you attain more sponsors using their name? Answer: you can't, unless that player joins us and hits the ground running (like Martial did) - the odds of which are very low.

Now, let's say you bring in a Galactico class player. Neymar, for £200M or even Varance for £120M, say.
When speaking with potential sponsors, you can explain how if they put their name on our shirts, in France or Brazil, their brand will become well known, because we have their country's top players in our team, who are followed by millions on social media. Sure, those sponsors could put their name on another shirt, for half the price, but that other football club won't have the reach that our club would have. What Woodward was explaining was that he wanted a Galactico with a big name and a big following. That player would represent good business value, even at £100M+. A player like Boateng, who is on the decline, injury prone and isn't marketable, would represent poor value, even at £30M, say.
Juventus used this strategy with Ronaldo. An expensive player, with big wages, but with the biggest following in World football. Sure, he'll cost a lot, but think of the potential extra income, he would bring in.

You also need to consider this.
Let's say we spend £250M to bolster our squad. And this squad, wins the title. How much extra revenue will that title win bring in? £10M? £50M? Certainly not £250M.
Herein lies the answer of why we did not spend big. The return on investment made absolutely no sense and from a business perspective, it would be ludicrous to spend £250M, to make a small fraction of that money, back.

 

[Sterling Archer]

World Cup games aren’t really comparable IMO. Knockout games are never likely to be expansive and open because they’re knockout games that neither team wants to lose so they end up being pretty cagey a lot of the time.

No no it wasn't cagey. I'm saying France's style was the same one you believe is outdated. It's also akin to Someone and Conte . So there are a few contemporaries that play that way and have success.

The media has really done a job in making folks think there's only one way to play this game

 

[Irish Jet]

It is mot though. You sell good players to get other good players. When you do that it is more a sideways move than improving. Klopp for example spent a lot on January and this summer, but he sold Coutinho for big money. Without doing so, he doesn't have the money to buy new players. Similarly, if we had to sell De Gea and then signed Oblak for 100m, no one would have said 'hey Mourinho spent a lot' because it was a sideways move, not an improvement.

We have spent significantly more under Mourinho than any other club bar City under Pep. We kept our best players while we added new ones, with the other clubs bar City needing to sell some of their best players in order to get new players. It is a pretty basic concept that some people refuse to understand.

Unless of course, we are talking about the period when Glazers didn't invest in the club. Then it all becomes about NET spent and how we spent less than Stoke.

When it comes to judging club’s performance – Not the managers – Net spend is useful. You can’t hold it against Mourinho that the club wouldn’t offload Rojo and Darmian for £45m when some may pay that just to see Darmian leave. City don’t even deserve credit for that period because when you look at who they off-loaded in Pep’s second season it’s just a laundry list of trash they’ve compiled over the years being sold at a huge losses – Bony, Navas, Nasri, Sinclair, Fernando, Nolito etc. Iheanacho being sold for £25m is the only decent outgoing business. They’ve been ruthless in getting rid of players Pep doesn’t want and take the financial hit. That has been a huge difference.

Klopp and Liverpool have been brilliant in the market to this point – They haven’t really missed on a signing as a club since Benteke. Remains to be seen about the summers business but they all look good. Like I said Coutinho is the exception and they’ve reinvested the money superbly and are a better team as a result. That said Coutinho predated Klopp so while he the club deserve huge credit for that profit it’s actually as much Rodgers’ doing, or whoever signed him when it comes to crediting the net spend. Which is my point. When talking about managers and net spend you have to consider the starting point.

Not even gonna touch on Chelsea. They get inexplicable fees for players, particularly from China and have bought pretty terribly of late.

Mourinho inherited a squad whose only great asset was a goalkeeper and a 20 year old. The “best players” we were keeping were who exactly? Even Martial is a stretch. What’s his market value? We haven’t been ruthless with the squad in the way I think Mourinho would have liked – He was with the top earners he inherited (Rooney and Schweinsteiger, a joke in itself) and did well to get them off the wage bill. I’m pretty sure if he was told he could get rid of Shaw, Jones, Darmian, Rojo, Martial and reinvest the money + 50% I think he’d do it in a heartbeat. Woodward himself has said the club refuses to do this.

 

[Murray3007]

This is a poor attempt at discrediting all the good things happening at the club due largely to Jose. Whether it was due to Matic injured or not, doesn't Jose deserve some credit for how Pereira has improved and is now in the squad? Pereira himself has acknowledge this so why are you trying to discredit it? The three English boys going in and out of the team are still integral members of the squad, are they not? We saw the role McT played last season when we had many midfield players injured, didn't we? I can bet you that Jose's experience is forcing the hand of the club to get a DoF. Whether it is in a bid to eventually fire him or make his job easier, Jose has to do with the pursuit of a DoF. And how much is a player of Fred's quality worth in today's insane football market? Was Pep going to pay less for him in January? Let's get real here. I can go on and on.

The point is, we should give the guy sticks where he deserves it (and he does deserve sticks) but this idea that he has been terrible and has done little to nothing that's good for the club is just ridiculous to say the least.

not a poor attempt just the truth, not sure how you can put Pereira improvement down to Jose since hes punted him out on loan since he's been here, the other young boys have been in and out the team none has been in the team all the time, there all squad players at best. not sure what the hell your even on about with the Fred considering I said the board backed Jose in that deal.

 

[Berbaclass]

He has pissed 400 million 'away'?


How do people reach such conclusions for goodness sake? I am fine with us having another manager but can we just be fair on this guy for once? How has he pissed 400 million away? For the first time in a long time, we now have something close to a strong core in that squad. A new manager right now will just need a few more additions and some work on the tactics and we'll be ready to go. Are we going to deny the very obvious reality that Pep who had a much better squad he took over has gone on to spend more? Plus the fact that he has a club structure where a proper football man is in charge of transfers and other football related things? When Jose said coming second last season was one of his best achievements, I knew exactly what he meant.

It is tiring the way we pound Jose in this place while taking away all contexts for fair judgement. I am a United fan and will like to see us playing heart racing football again while winning a truck load of trophies so no problem with hiring a manager who can deliver those but to piss on Jose's efforts is just plain ridiculous. Whether Jose stays or leaves, United will remain United. But let's criticize him fairly. My main issue with him is how he sets up the team to play in such a way that we do not consistently experience exhilarating football. I'll hang him for that. Other than that, I think he has been largely brilliant considering the circumstances. And even if some of our fans don't agree, which is fine, let us at least be fair on him when criticizing. Pogba, Bailly, Matic, Lindelöf, Zlatan, Lukaku and Fred have been very good buys. I am really praying that Sanchez will eventually come good though he has been very disappointing. To say Jose pissed off the money is unfair.

Unfortunately football success is based mainly on what you win. For a manager of Jose’s ability to spend that much money on some very good players and not really win much of not is disappointing. Maybe he hasn’t ‘pissed the money away’ but he’s not got much to show for it.

It’s all well good having a strong squad but in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t really mean much if you don’t translate that into results. Let’s hope this will be the season that happens.

Like I say I’m not really anti or pro Jose right now. I’ll reserve my ultimate judgment for this season because now he’s had a fair amount of time. If he doesn’t really put up a good challenge this year with the squad we have (despite him saying it’s not good enough because it bloody well is) then I think he will ultimately have failed. I think he’ll also think that too.

 

[Irish Jet]

Yet my point is that if LVG's window was so bad why haven't we sold more of those players, you can make up excuses like high wages, clubs not being interested etc. City dealt with that, we haven't. Fact is that we have the lowest amount of players leaving the club in the last 3 seasons, City have gotten rid of double the amount of players in the same time. What we don't know (anyone suggesting otherwise is bullshitting) is who controls it. Is it Jose who tells the club what the valuation of each player is and the club uses that as a benchmark or is it all down to Ed. If it's entirely Ed's responsibility then he's failing, if however Jose is valuing them too high then it's Joses' fault.

You can't just base a Manager on the money they spend, that's pretty silly. You have to also judge a Manager on the amount he's selling as those are squad assets (can be your best player like Coutinho for example). If you looked at Chelseas spending you'd be thinking they should be challenging for the title and yet they've also sold the highest amount and balancing those out shows that they've spent pretty much equal to Liverpool and Arsenal. You aren't going to buy a sofa for your house without selling the old one. Honestly question peoples understanding of finances if they don't look at net spend, it's like they skipped the trading bean lesson in primary school.

Anyway, point stands. Us and City are a tier (or more) ahead of our competition and id probably say that City are currently a tier ahead of us in their spending. So the real question is whether you think we should be on par with City, if you do then the club needs to back Jose a bit more. Personally I think that's unreasonable.

While we're talking bout the LvG Transfers, remaining players:

- Luke Shaw (Constant issues with all LvG/Jose)
- Marcos Rojo (Linked to Fenerbache)
- Ander Herrera (Contract expires next season, negotiating new deal)
- Matteo Darmian (He'll probably be sold by end of window)
- Anthony Martial (Jose wants him sold)

So it's looking like we'll probably keep hold of 4 of those players with Darmian moving on. Although Jose apparently wants both to stay till January...

Given how Jose clearly doesn’t value some of them as footballers, as indicated by playing time, then the only reason he could possibly have for keeping any of them is that he’s not being assured of replacements – There’s no way he’s getting involved in negotiations. Mourinho would probably bring them to China himself if he could get improvements on them. City aren’t really comparable – They also were operating at a different level of spending 5-7 years before Pep’s arrival and it really distorts their recent net spend. They’ve been ruthless in getting rid of the trash they’ve accumulated under Pep – He was fully aware when offloading three full backs that at three upgrades were coming in return at whatever cost. When they missed one of his targets they just spent on another. It was backing him to the hilt.

It’s not a misunderstanding on finances. I’m well aware clubs would sooner sell to buy basically across the board. My point is talking about managers and where success/failure or credit/criticism is being attributed when there’s a range of factors involved beyond just buying and selling.

 

[Smores]

It is mot though. You sell good players to get other good players. When you do that it is more a sideways move than improving. Klopp for example spent a lot on January and this summer, but he sold Coutinho for big money. Without doing so, he doesn't have the money to buy new players. Similarly, if we had to sell De Gea and then signed Oblak for 100m, no one would have said 'hey Mourinho spent a lot' because it was a sideways move, not an improvement.

We have spent significantly more under Mourinho than any other club bar City under Pep. We kept our best players while we added new ones, with the other clubs bar City needing to sell some of their best players in order to get new players. It is a pretty basic concept that some people refuse to understand.

Unless of course, we are talking about the period when Glazers didn't invest in the club. Then it all becomes about NET spent and how we spent less than Stoke.

There is still a massive case to consider in what was inherited though, whilst your argument does make the distinction between like for like replacements it doesn't factor in when players have no value due to retiring.

Case in point being Rooney, he virtually retired so we had to invest big money. In your scenario if Rooney was inherited at his peak but sold and replaced it wouldnt count against the manager but as he's at the end of his career with little value then it does?

 

[GM K]

not a poor attempt just the truth, not sure how you can put Pereira improvement down to Jose since hes punted him out on loan since he's been here, the other young boys have been in and out the team none has been in the team all the time, there all squad players at best. not sure what the hell your even on about with the Fred considering I said the board backed Jose in that deal.

It doesn't matter if the lads have been in and out of the team. The important thing is that they are important members of the first team. You become a consistent first eleven member when you are good enough to become so. Nevertheless, those in the first team who are not consistently picked in the first eleven, are no less important to a squad because it takes more than the first eleven to make up a winning squad. No need to take the credit away from Jose on this. We know how other so called 'promoters of young players' are faring in this regard.

And as per Pereira, the kid himself has acknowledged Jose's role in his development. He said Jose kept close watch on him during his loan spells and gave him regular feedback. Jose encouraged and told him he is part of his plans. Jose encouraged him to go on loan the first time so that he could get good playing time and wanted him in the team the second time but the kid insisted on going to Spain the second time. Journalists and many here used that to conclude that he had lost his chances and would be sold this Summer especially since he even spent a lot of time on the bench in Valencia but here we are, Jose is showing faith in him. Again, I keep wondering why we can be so desperate to deny Jose credits where he deserves it but be quick to hang him for every little thing. He criticizes Shaw and gets hanged (and rightly so even though Shaw himself thinks otherwise). He encourages Pereira, follows up on him diligently during his loan spell and shows faith in him when many don't think he deserves it, yet we want to argue that Jose had nothing to do with the kid's progress.

It's the lack of fairness and balance that I am pointing out not that Jose doesn't deserve criticisms. But as much as he does, he also deserves to be praised when he gets things right.

 

[GM K]

Unfortunately football success is based mainly on what you win. For a manager of Jose’s ability to spend that much money on some very good players and not really win much of not is disappointing. Maybe he hasn’t ‘pissed the money away’ but he’s not got much to show for it.

It’s all well good having a strong squad but in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t really mean much if you don’t translate that into results. Let’s hope this will be the season that happens.

Like I say I’m not really anti or pro Jose right now. I’ll reserve my ultimate judgment for this season because now he’s had a fair amount of time. If he doesn’t really put up a good challenge this year with the squad we have (despite him saying it’s not good enough because it bloody well is) then I think he will ultimately have failed. I think he’ll also think that too.

That's very debatable. For me it is all about contexts - the market value, what the team he met was like, what kind of investments was needed in the light of the state of the team, what direct competitors have spent considering the teams they had before, whether or not he was getting the players he wanted etc.

I am not disagreeing with you, just saying that for me, context is important in drawing such conclusions.

But you are right about two things though:

- today's reality is that a top manager just has to win silverware. Rightly or wrongly, it is the demand of the footballing world today

- after this season, we can conclude that Jose has had enough time. Even though context also matters here, the reality is that in modern football, at the top level, three seasons are just about what you will get to show results.

I'm with you on those.

 

[Berbaclass]

No no it wasn't cagey. I'm saying France's style was the same one you believe is outdated. It's also akin to Someone and Conte . So there are a few contemporaries that play that way and have success.

The media has really done a job in making folks think there's only one way to play this game

That's very debatable. For me it is all about contexts - the market value, what the team he met was like, what kind of investments was needed in the light of the state of the team, what direct competitors have spent considering the teams they had before, whether or not he was getting the players he wanted etc.

I am not disagreeing with you, just saying that for me, context is important in drawing such conclusions.

But you are right about two things though:

- today's reality is that a top manager just has to win silverware. Rightly or wrongly, it is the demand of the footballing world today

- after this season, we can conclude that Jose has had enough time. Even though context also matters here, the reality is that in modern football, at the top level, three seasons are just about what you will get to show results.

I'm with you on those.

I agree in the context it is highly debatable but I think a manager like Mourinho with the record he has will look back and think he could have done better.

 

[VanGaalyTime]

Mourinho hasn't been supported financially? Thats a load of bollocks.

I'm not his biggest fan but there comes a point where you have to just stop throwing money into the abyss. Mourinho has spent as much as Pep and now needs to rely on his famed coaching ability to get the best out of the players.

If he doesn't then he'll be gone.

The Carrick promotion and the recent DoF search are no coincidence IMO. He's being groomed to take over eventually and will be helped by McKenna and the new DoF. Thats how I see things going forward.

I feel like I'm losing my mind when people keep saying Mou has spent as much as Pep. There are two reactions: No, he hasn't. Pep has spent almost 100m more. Can you imagine how much better United would be with two 50m defenders? It would allow Mou to play the attacking football he was known for during his first stint at Chelsea and at Porto and Real where his team broke goalscoring records.

Secondly, Pep came into a team that has been built precisely for him! He had a better squad to work with than Mou when he came in. Players like Aguero, David Silva, Fernandinho, etc. offered a world class group ready to build upon with good young players, (which, granted, Pep has done well). United had who? De Gea okay. But who else could remain in the team from the Moyes/Van Gaal days? Maybe Mata and Martial but these two have been linked with moves away and neither is world class (yet for Martial). Mou has been supported financially to a point, and this summer was a complete disaster in that respect. We needed investment to remain ahead of Liverpool and get closer to City, and he was given virtually nothing this summer, while Liverpool spent a world record fee on a defender and goalkeeper - resolving their two weaknesses in the squad. How can Mou be expected to compete when he isn't being given the resources? We aren't Spurs. We aren't just happy for a challenge at top 4. We need to challenge for the title and the champions league, and Mou has been desperately let down by the board, the owners and Woodward in particular. If he is fired or resigns, he'd have my full support regardless of what happens during this season.

 

[Berbaclass]

I feel like I'm losing my mind when people keep saying Mou has spent as much as Pep. There are two reactions: No, he hasn't. Pep has spent almost 100m more. Can you imagine how much better United would be with two 50m defenders? It would allow Mou to play the attacking football he was known for during his first stint at Chelsea and at Porto and Real where his team broke goalscoring records.

Secondly, Pep came into a team that has been built precisely for him! He had a better squad to work with than Mou when he came in. Players like Aguero, David Silva, Fernandinho, etc. offered a world class group ready to build upon with good young players, (which, granted, Pep has done well). United had who? De Gea okay. But who else could remain in the team from the Moyes/Van Gaal days? Maybe Mata and Martial but these two have been linked with moves away and neither is world class (yet for Martial). Mou has been supported financially to a point, and this summer was a complete disaster in that respect. We needed investment to remain ahead of Liverpool and get closer to City, and he was given virtually nothing this summer, while Liverpool spent a world record fee on a defender and goalkeeper - resolving their two weaknesses in the squad. How can Mou be expected to compete when he isn't being given the resources? We aren't Spurs. We aren't just happy for a challenge at top 4. We need to challenge for the title and the champions league, and Mou has been desperately let down by the board, the owners and Woodward in particular. If he is fired or resigns, he'd have my full support regardless of what happens during this season.

Well if you read a few posts after that I acknowledged that I was incorrect in stating that.

I also don’t disagree with what you’re saying because you’re right. City have been structured superbly. I just don’t like this narrative that is basically saying Mourinho has been given no money to compete with City. He has been given a good amount and I feel like he should have done better with what he spent. He is after all famed in his career for getting the best out of players in his team and if he had been doing that then we would be closer to City.

Both the board and Jose are to blame as far as I am concerned. How much they’re at fault obviously it can’t really be calculated because we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes but both sides are at fault.

I feel like I’m a way both Woodward and Jose are holding us back right now because they’re not really pulling in the same direction. Which is sad obviously.

 

[GM K]

I agree in the context it is highly debatable but I think a manager like Mourinho with the record he has will look back and think he could have done better.

I agree. I think a manager like Jose will believe his results should be much better.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

He has pissed 400 million 'away'?


How do people reach such conclusions for goodness sake? I am fine with us having another manager but can we just be fair on this guy for once? How has he pissed 400 million away? For the first time in a long time, we now have something close to a strong core in that squad. A new manager right now will just need a few more additions and some work on the tactics and we'll be ready to go. Are we going to deny the very obvious reality that Pep who had a much better squad he took over has gone on to spend more? Plus the fact that he has a club structure where a proper football man is in charge of transfers and other football related things? When Jose said coming second last season was one of his best achievements, I knew exactly what he meant.

It is tiring the way we pound Jose in this place while taking away all contexts for fair judgement. I am a United fan and will like to see us playing heart racing football again while winning a truck load of trophies so no problem with hiring a manager who can deliver those but to piss on Jose's efforts is just plain ridiculous. Whether Jose stays or leaves, United will remain United. But let's criticize him fairly. My main issue with him is how he sets up the team to play in such a way that we do not consistently experience exhilarating football. I'll hang him for that. Other than that, I think he has been largely brilliant considering the circumstances. And even if some of our fans don't agree, which is fine, let us at least be fair on him when criticizing. Pogba, Bailly, Matic, Lindelöf, Zlatan, Lukaku and Fred have been very good buys. I am really praying that Sanchez will eventually come good though he has been very disappointing. To say Jose pissed off the money is unfair.

Good post. I tend to agree.
Too many knee jerkers on here.

 

[Thomas A.Anderson]

I feel like I'm losing my mind when people keep saying Mou has spent as much as Pep. There are two reactions: No, he hasn't. Pep has spent almost 100m more. Can you imagine how much better United would be with two 50m defenders? It would allow Mou to play the attacking football he was known for during his first stint at Chelsea and at Porto and Real where his team broke goalscoring records.

Secondly, Pep came into a team that has been built precisely for him! He had a better squad to work with than Mou when he came in. Players like Aguero, David Silva, Fernandinho, etc. offered a world class group ready to build upon with good young players, (which, granted, Pep has done well). United had who? De Gea okay. But who else could remain in the team from the Moyes/Van Gaal days? Maybe Mata and Martial but these two have been linked with moves away and neither is world class (yet for Martial). Mou has been supported financially to a point, and this summer was a complete disaster in that respect. We needed investment to remain ahead of Liverpool and get closer to City, and he was given virtually nothing this summer, while Liverpool spent a world record fee on a defender and goalkeeper - resolving their two weaknesses in the squad. How can Mou be expected to compete when he isn't being given the resources? We aren't Spurs. We aren't just happy for a challenge at top 4. We need to challenge for the title and the champions league, and Mou has been desperately let down by the board, the owners and Woodward in particular. If he is fired or resigns, he'd have my full support regardless of what happens during this season.

Too. Much. Sense. Stop it!

 

[Roboc7]

Mourinho has put together a team that would compete for the title in terms of the standard of the league when he joined. Unfortunately City have raised that standard significantly and therefore we aren’t any closer to winning the title.

Pep had a head start on Mourinho and has outspent him. Closing that gap will take time, money, establishing a way of playing and getting the most out of the talented players we already have. I don’t see Mourinho being the right man to do that job.

I am not convinced buying Alderweireld or Maguire and Willian for 120m plus would have made much difference in the short term or been sensible longer term. Whether the board reached that conclusion based on an unwillingness to spend money or because of a realisation that they just aren’t on the same page as Mourinho isn’t clear.

 

[flappyjay]

It is mot though. You sell good players to get other good players. When you do that it is more a sideways move than improving. Klopp for example spent a lot on January and this summer, but he sold Coutinho for big money. Without doing so, he doesn't have the money to buy new players. Similarly, if we had to sell De Gea and then signed Oblak for 100m, no one would have said 'hey Mourinho spent a lot' because it was a sideways move, not an improvement.

We have spent significantly more under Mourinho than any other club bar City under Pep. We kept our best players while we added new ones, with the other clubs bar City needing to sell some of their best players in order to get new players. It is a pretty basic concept that some people refuse to understand.

Unless of course, we are talking about the period when Glazers didn't invest in the club. Then it all becomes about NET spent and how we spent less than Stoke.

This. Chelsea have been stuck trying to replace Matic, Costa and now the keeper. Whilst we have added another quality midfielder on what we already had

 

[ash_86]

He has pissed 400 million 'away'?


How do people reach such conclusions for goodness sake? I am fine with us having another manager but can we just be fair on this guy for once? How has he pissed 400 million away? For the first time in a long time, we now have something close to a strong core in that squad. A new manager right now will just need a few more additions and some work on the tactics and we'll be ready to go. Are we going to deny the very obvious reality that Pep who had a much better squad he took over has gone on to spend more? Plus the fact that he has a club structure where a proper football man is in charge of transfers and other football related things? When Jose said coming second last season was one of his best achievements, I knew exactly what he meant.

It is tiring the way we pound Jose in this place while taking away all contexts for fair judgement. I am a United fan and will like to see us playing heart racing football again while winning a truck load of trophies so no problem with hiring a manager who can deliver those but to piss on Jose's efforts is just plain ridiculous. Whether Jose stays or leaves, United will remain United. But let's criticize him fairly. My main issue with him is how he sets up the team to play in such a way that we do not consistently experience exhilarating football. I'll hang him for that. Other than that, I think he has been largely brilliant considering the circumstances. And even if some of our fans don't agree, which is fine, let us at least be fair on him when criticizing. Pogba, Bailly, Matic, Lindelöf, Zlatan, Lukaku and Fred have been very good buys. I am really praying that Sanchez will eventually come good though he has been very disappointing. To say Jose pissed off the money is unfair.

Brilliant post!!

 

[Foxbatt]

I feel that most of the players we have are much better than what we see. Even Fellaini. It is the way Jose sets them up is the problem. It seems that Jose is not teaching them what to do when we have the ball. This is where we lack. Our players do not know how to create space and their movements off the ball is terrible. It seems he is implementing his philosophy the less we have the ball the less mistakes we make so play the long ball and hope that we create a chance or the opposition can have it and we will regroup and stay in shape and let them make the mistakes.
The complete opposite of LVG.

 

[Shiva87]

I agree with you there. Being able to control and break down a game in possession is, in my understanding of the game, more difficult than sitting back, soaking pressure and countering.

But I also don't think that style can have the kind of success that is associated with Pep, without the expensive assortment of players. So goes back to what you said earlier - Jose in contrast employs a style that can be successful with a good squad rather than the most elite squad...if that makes sense.

But he's also a winnner. As most United fans are accustomed to. But to compete with this City team, the usual Jose effort of making it work won't be enough...last season is a great example. We came in second and beat every other team in the league. Fa cup final as well. But it pales in comparison to City.

I do believe Jose can have an equally good season, even with his anti football if you want to call it that. But it needs two world class players for every position. So in the end, I can't fault Jose. It's the board. Do they want cheap but pretty football and top 4? Hire Wenger. They want a deep rivalry with City and coming out on top, back Jose. He's the one of a select few currents that has been able to better Pep

But, if Jose needs two world class players for every position - isn't that the definition of an elite squad? It's kind of a self defeating argument you are making there!

 

[Sterling Archer]

But, if Jose needs two world class players for every position - isn't that the definition of an elite squad? It's kind of a self defeating argument you are making there!

Well, no. I'm saying in order to compete with this City team Jose would need to match what they have - two players per position. Its the same for Liverpool - Klopp is now getting closer to a squad with that kind of serious depth that can actually pose a title challenge.

Previous years, before the money influx you could get away with the kind of squad that we have. Team > individual. Now you need a team of all elite players .

 

[RedorDead21]

The next 30 days could really change everything for Mou and thats the great thing about football. A succession of wins and good performances from Pogs and Shaw and hopefully re-integration of Martial and the clouds might pass over onto someone else. We so need a strong start this season to give everyone at the club a boost. Big Mou fan but even I have to admit if we were 5-6 points ahead it would be "I'm a great front runner, this team, we will see".....He needs to see himself as the leader of the team and go down with it....if that is indeed the case.

 

[Moonwalker]

This has gone full "leave Britney alone" on this last page.

 

[lysglimt]

Mourinho hasn't done much wrong in which players he has brought in - it's what he is doing with the players that is wrong.

Lukaku, Bailly, Sanchez, Pogba and Fred to name 5 - could be the backbone of any team capable of dominating the P.L - but now I feel that unless Mourinho leaves Our club by christmas 3-4 of our key-players will go or want to go. We have a team who imo is almost Equal to City - yet we are miles behind them. If that is not the managers fault whose is it ?

Sure you can blame the board - but if anyone had told you guys 27 months ago - we would have this team today - With Pogba, Lukaku, Martial, Sanchez, Matic, DDG, Shaw etc - we would be cheering and expecting to dominate the League!

 

[TMDaines]

We could go on to beat Brighton 4-3 but all it would do is actually prove my point. So I’ll post this now.

Criticising the mistakes is fair. But there is a coaching problem. It was the same against Leicester. So passive, never on the front foot and it results in shit like that. Nail on the head here.

Absolutely bang on. This is the reason why I was someone who wanted Mourinho in, but would be relaxed with the board moving him on. As a United fan, it’s a very weird feeling being OK with your manager getting the sack, but he’s looking incompetent . Even Van Gaal I thought we could have given longer, as I at least could see what he was trying to do, but with Mourinho now there is nothing. What are we trying to do?

We are poor going forward where our chance creation is dreadful. Defensively our transitions are so badly organised that teams expose our backline with ease. Compare the ease with which teams counterattack us and we counterattack the opposition. This isn’t about being more attacking or more defensive. I could get behind a team wanting to do anything well, but we’re not very good at anything and rely on good players bailing us out with moments of individualism. The classic example is De Gea’s conceded goals versus expected goals, but plenty of other players have bailed us out at times too.

We have a good squad. Giving Mourinho another three or four idealised signings would serve nothing. He’s accountable for coaching his team and developing our strategy and has failed to do that for over two years. This isn’t a case where a manager’s ideas are being let down by the playing staff he has to work with. This is a manager making little of the talent he has available. I don’t believe he’s the lost the dressing room yet, but neither do I think he’s giving the players inspiration and direction.

I would love to see Mourinho turn it around, but the body of evidence from his tenure so far has suggested a team who were incredibly fortunate to finish where they did last season and one whose natural place is no longer even in the top four. You cannot expect to win titles giving the volume of good chances away and creating the relative few that we do. I can place faith in previous good underlying performances, but not in good fortune. Our previous results may mask over Mourinho’s shortcomings, but previous performances, which are a far better indictor of future success, do not.

 

[nore1975]

It looks to me like Mourinho has run out of ideas. He is clearly not happy with his CB partnership/s. I think Matic is missed in midfield. No penetration down the flanks. Not a lot of creativity in the side. Pogba doesn't always turn up. Not sure how Mourinho turns this around. Shaw maybe one positive this season. He does need a right back unless Dalot is his planned option. Guardiola came to City with a plan and has executed it to perfection. The contrast is startling.

 

[RedorDead21]

He may have lost the confidence of too many people to turn it around. I remember Benitez at Liverpool and Wenger at Arsenal looking like a loss away from getting sacked. They’d always win but never went on to turn the ship around. I think Jose will come up with a way to beat spurs. Smalling and Jones and Matic will return with Lingard and Herrera prob starting. All back to those he trusts to put in a shift.

 

[charlenefan]

Jose looks defeated to me, I don't any longer expect a meltdown instead now I envision him going out with a whimper

 

[Ekeke]

It looks to me like Mourinho has run out of ideas. He is clearly not happy with his CB partnership/s. I think Matic is missed in midfield. No penetration down the flanks. Not a lot of creativity in the side. Pogba doesn't always turn up. Not sure how Mourinho turns this around. Shaw maybe one positive this season. He does need a right back unless Dalot is his planned option. Guardiola came to City with a plan and has executed it to perfection. The contrast is startling.

This part makes no sense. Smalling and Jones did well last season.

But Mourinho was involved in us forking out a lot of cash for Lindelof and Bailly so it looks more like he's trying to show why we signed them and that they werent mistakes.

Unfortunately its spectacularly backfired