The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

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Cheesy said:
In what sense? If we're appointing Giggs because he has credentials as a club legend, then we should also be considering legendary figures like Eric Cantona. If we're appointing him on the basis that he has experience as assistant manager, then we should also be considering figures like Mike Phelan.
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I've been through my reasons for appointing Giggs with you earlier in the week so I won't repeat them. By bringing Cantona into the conversation, a man with no coaching qualifications, we will only derail this thread.

As I've said before, in my view Giggs status, his current role and potential to bring something 'intangible' to the party are all factors I think could combine well. It's not just his 'legend' status; that's only part of it for me.
 
Cheesy said:
In what sense? If we're appointing Giggs because he has credentials as a club legend, then we should also be considering legendary figures like Eric Cantona. If we're appointing him on the basis that he has experience as assistant manager, then we should also be considering figures like Mike Phelan.
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Martin Ferguson. Spent more time with SAF than anyone else, thus probably picked up more from him than anyone else, so will probably be a brilliant manager.
 
Rory 7 said:
I've been through my reasons for appointing Giggs with you earlier in the week so I won't repeat them. By bringing Cantona into the conversation, a man with no coaching qualifications, we will only derail this thread.

As I've said before, in my view Giggs status, his current role and potential to bring something 'intangible' to the party are all factors I think could combine well. It's not just his 'legend' status; that's only part of it for me.
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So if Cantona got his coaching qualifications, he'd be worth consideration?

I get that you really want Giggs, but the insistence is just a bit bizarre. You're happy to abandon logic (not being offensive there, you've said so yourself), and merely appoint Giggs out of a feeling that he'll do well and due to something intangible he would offer.

But Cantona? He needs his coaching qualifications! All seems very arbitrary, really. I mean, it's fair enough to really want Giggs as manager, but don't be surprised on a discussion forum when people find it a bit bizarre.
 
sullydnl said:
Martin Ferguson. Spent more time with SAF than anyone else, thus probably picked up more from him than anyone else, so will probably be a brilliant manager.
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Cathy Ferguson has spent even longer with him! Sign her up.
 
Cheesy said:
So if Cantona got his coaching qualifications, he'd be worth consideration?

I get that you really want Giggs, but the insistence is just a bit bizarre. You're happy to abandon logic (not being offensive there, you've said so yourself), and merely appoint Giggs out of a feeling that he'll do well and due to something intangible he would offer.

But Cantona? He needs his coaching qualifications! All seems very arbitrary, really. I mean, it's fair enough to really want Giggs as manager, but don't be surprised on a discussion forum when people find it a bit bizarre.
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If Eric got his qualifications and LVG took him under his wing and made him assistant manager then yes I would consider him. None of these things are happening re: Cantona.
 
Shamwow said:
Fergie has done a bit more than "serve the firm very well in the past". His ridiculous success, and work to help build the club into what it is, are the major reasons why 7th in the league was seen as such a huge disappointment. Backing Moyes shouldn't invalidate any future advice he might have for the club, whether it be about managers or not.
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Not when he is pushing another pie in the sky move that could set us back years and probably cause us irreparable damage given the nature of our competition. He's done more than anyone can ask but that doesn't give him a right to play power broker pushing under qualified novices at our expense. A week after Moyes was ditched he stated that Giggs should be given the job full time, a week, on the back of one match under Giggs. Trying to be as respectful as I can I think Fergie is more interested in us appointing his cronies than he is in determining the most suitable candidate else why would he be trying to preempt any selection process by putting Giggs' name forward at any given opportunity?
What Fergie and Charlton did would have gotten them the sack in a more cut throat industry. The fact that they got off easily for such a monumental feck up is the reason they remain this reckless.
 
Cheesy said:
If we're considering Giggs as manager, then it's not that ridiculous. Both are United legends during Fergie's era of success. Giggs is assistant manager, but all that really shows right now is that he's more interested in going into management than Cantona. If we're considering assistant management as a measure of being worthy of the United job, perhaps we should consider Mike Phelan, or Steve McClaren.
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This type of reasoning (which several such as @Raoul have used) is pretty much the very definition of a straw man argument.

We aren't discussing or suggesting Cantona, Scholes, Anderson or Fred the Red taking over as manager, just Giggs.
 
sullydnl said:
Martin Ferguson. Spent more time with SAF than anyone else, thus probably picked up more from him than anyone else, so will probably be a brilliant manager.
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This type of post is typical of those against Giggs being appointed. It's totally disingenuous. You know it's because of the dismissive attitude of some of the posts on here that I really want Giggs to succeed. As I said earlier, you'd swear we were talking about promoting the megastore manager to first team coach. Not the teams' current assistant manager who just happens to also be the most decorated player in the clubs' history. For my sanity I'm going to have to take a break from reading this type of nonsense.
 
Rory 7 said:
This type of post is typical of those against Giggs being appointed. It's totally disingenuous. You know it's because of the dismissive attitude of some of the posts on here that I really want Giggs to succeed. As I said earlier, you'd swear we were talking about promoting the megastore manager to first team coach. Not the teams' current assistant manager who just happens to also be the most decorated player in the clubs' history. For my sanity I'm going to have to take a break from reading this type of nonsense.
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Player = player, manager = manager. Sorry to come across as a patronising cnut but the two roles are chalk and cheese. As many of Fergie's protégés at Aberdeen and United have shown.
 
Walrus said:
This type of reasoning (which several such as @Raoul have used) is pretty much the very definition of a straw man argument.

We aren't discussing or suggesting Cantona, Scholes, Anderson or Fred the Red taking over as manager, just Giggs.
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There's no magical rule that says we can't expand the discussion to include other players since some have repeatedly cited "knows the club well" and "he was a successful player" as examples of why he should get the job. We've already demonstrated that other ex Fergie era players have mostly flopped as managers, and so the question then becomes why wouldn't Giggs do the same.
 
Walrus said:
This type of reasoning (which several such as @Raoul have used) is pretty much the very definition of a straw man argument.

We aren't discussing or suggesting Cantona, Scholes, Anderson or Fred the Red taking over as manager, just Giggs.
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But the primary reasoning for Giggs taking over (ultimately the only reason he's in consideration), is due to his legendary status at the club as a player. If Giggs had played for us for a brief two-year spell, spending the majority of his career with Spurs or Everton, then we wouldn't be thinking about him.

As such, if Giggs is worth considering, then it's a bit daft to suddenly say it's absurd when someone suggests Eric Cantona. The only reason that was given to me for Giggs being a stronger candidate than Cantona was that he's currently our assistant manager and has coaching badges; again, if we're going by that criteria then Mike Phelan could quite easily be up for consideration.
 
Rory 7 said:
So what is a player manager then?
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Something that was last successful in 1986 with Kenny Dalglish. Being a great player and being a great manager are two entirely different things. Even if we discount playing and managing at the same time, you have to go back to the early nineties (George Graham and Dalglish again) to find the last example in England.
 
It'll be Giggs and even if we are gash he'll be given time because of who he is. Stupid.
 
Cheesy said:
But the primary reasoning for Giggs taking over (ultimately the only reason he's in consideration), is due to his legendary status at the club as a player. If Giggs had played for us for a brief two-year spell, spending the majority of his career with Spurs or Everton, then we wouldn't be thinking about him.

As such, if Giggs is worth considering, then it's a bit daft to suddenly say it's absurd when someone suggests Eric Cantona. The only reason that was given to me for Giggs being a stronger candidate than Cantona was that he's currently our assistant manager and has coaching badges; again, if we're going by that criteria then Mike Phelan could quite easily be up for consideration.
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Are you familiar with the term 'Gestalt'?
 
Bwuk said:
It'll be Giggs and even if we are gash he'll be given time because of who he is. Stupid.
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Honestly, I'm not so sure this would be the case.

We'd expect Giggs to hypothetically get plenty of time if he performed poorly, but it's surprisingly how quickly the tide can turn on a manager.

Moyes is the prime example: he was seen as the hand-picked replacement to Fergie; someone who had paid his dues and was guaranteed to be a success. Of course, that quickly changed once things turned sour.

Giggs has the advantage of his status with the club, but even that would only take him so far. The dressing room would be a key point. No matter how much goodwill a board has for a manager, if Giggs were having a season similar to Moyes' year, and someone like Mata or Smalling began to suggest that they were wanting to leave the club due to our performance, he'd be gone in an instant. It happened with Moyes; it became clear that the dressing room was unhappy with him as our manager, and it was one of the reasons as to why the board had to pull the trigger.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Something that was last successful in 1986 with Kenny Dalglish. Being a great player and being a great manager are two entirely different things. Even if we discount playing and managing at the same time, you have to go back to the early nineties (George Graham and Dalglish again) to find the last example in England.
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But you admit that it possible for a player to also be a successful manager? I hope so. Because your original post seemed to suggest the two were mutually exclusive, we have now established that the two aren't. Good. We're making progress.

Sorry to come across like a patronising cnut but your assertion that playing and managing are 'chalk' and 'cheese' is just so myopic. The arguments against Giggs taking over are put forward in such a binary manner e.g. A great player won't result in A great manager. There could be some grey areas here you know.
 
Raoul said:
None of the traits you mentioned are acceptable substitutes for managerial experience. Let's see how he fares managing a club before handing him the United job on a gift wrapped silver platter.
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Not acceptable to you perhaps but worth consideration to many others. Sounds like if he got the job (Giggs) then you would be obliged to want him out asap - for the best interests of the club obviously:rolleyes:
 
RedFish said:
Not acceptable to you perhaps but worth consideration to many others. Sounds like if he got the job (Giggs) then you would be obliged to want him out asap - for the best interests of the club obviously:rolleyes:
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Some are too busy fantasising about the success that Klopp will bring the scousers I think!
 
Raoul said:
There's no magical rule that says we can't expand the discussion to include other players since some have repeatedly cited "knows the club well" and "he was a successful player" as examples of why he should get the job. We've already demonstrated that other ex Fergie era players have mostly flopped as managers, and so the question then becomes why wouldn't Giggs do the same.
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Well in the anti-megathread spirit, if you want to discuss some pie in the sky notion of having Cantona in charge, I would invite you to create a new thread on it and I will happily ignore it.

The only reason you and others are trying to create these silly faux comparisons to any other ex United player picked out of a hat, is to try to belittle the discussion and reinforce your own stubborn opinion that there is no logical discussion to be had regarding Giggs.

It's not relevant to the discussion whether Keane did well at Sunderland or not. And it is not a valid comparison trying to bring up Cantona, Gerrard or any of the other randomly selected ex players from various clubs, because none of them are in the same situation that Giggs is in.
 
Cheesy said:
Nope, can't say I am.
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Gestalt is a term from physchogy that means 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts'.

You seem to continually suggest that the primary reason to appoint Giggs is his legendary status. My argument is that is just one of the 'parts'. There are many others; his current role at the club, the presence of LVG, timing, continuity, his lack of experience (there are negative parts too I admit!).

If all of these things combine in his favour, the 'whole' of a Giggs appointment could be 'greater than the sum of its parts'. This is the intangible I've tried to articulate previously.

The Gesalt is really the bigger picture. You are dismissing his potential by saying 'he's only in the running because of his legendary status'. That misses a potentially bigger picture in my view.
 
Cheesy said:
But the primary reasoning for Giggs taking over (ultimately the only reason he's in consideration), is due to his legendary status at the club as a player. If Giggs had played for us for a brief two-year spell, spending the majority of his career with Spurs or Everton, then we wouldn't be thinking about him.

As such, if Giggs is worth considering, then it's a bit daft to suddenly say it's absurd when someone suggests Eric Cantona. The only reason that was given to me for Giggs being a stronger candidate than Cantona was that he's currently our assistant manager and has coaching badges; again, if we're going by that criteria then Mike Phelan could quite easily be up for consideration.
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As you just said yourself, through keen powers of observation, Giggs is our assistant manager and will have been for several years by the time he would be appointed. Giggs has his coaching badges, an interest in the managers job, decades of experience within the club. In short, a night and day difference to Cantona. There. Is. No. Comparison.

All you are doing is just trying to wind people up with these sorts of statements. I have had 40 pages of it and it starts to wear on me.
 
Rory 7 said:
Gestalt is a term from physchogy that means 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts'.

You seem to continually suggest that the primary reason to appoint Giggs is his legendary status. My argument is that is just one of the 'parts'. There are many others; his current role at the club, the presence of LVG, timing, continuity, his lack of experience (there are negative parts too I admit!).

If all of these things combine in his favour, the 'whole' of a Giggs appointment could be 'greater than the sum of its parts'. This is the intangible I've tried to articulate previously.

The Gesalt is really the bigger picture. You are dismissing his potential by saying 'he's only in the running because of his legendary status'. That misses a potentially bigger picture in my view.
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But no matter how we paint it, he is in the running because he's a United legend. Again, as I've said, I understand that it's not the sole reason for his potential appointment, but it's the entire basis upon which it's built: the romanticism of it is shrouded in his legendary status.

Yes, he's currently got a role at the club, but as I've already said, this is no more impressive than past assistants who wouldn't even be considered for the role. The reason Giggs is being considered, when they otherwise wouldn't be, is because he's a United legend.

The presence of LVG isn't particularly a reason for appointing Giggs. Yeah, it's great for Giggs to learn from a top manager, but it doesn't particularly mean he'll be successful. Past players of Fergie's who have gone on to become mediocre managers can attest to that.

The continuity is problematic in that, again, it's only going to be useful if Giggs is any good as a manager. If he's not, he'll be out the door. Hell, even if he is successful, he could soon grow tired of management, or decide he'd like a new challenge elsewhere. The continuity he'd supposedly bring isn't guaranteed; in fact, it's no more guaranteed than the continuity we hoped Moyes would bring when he was appointed.

I get what you're saying: you like the idea of appointing Giggs, and it's not just due to his legendary status. But the problem is, no matter how we try to spin it, his status as a player is ultimately the primary reason he's even in consideration for the job.
 
Raoul said:
There's no magical rule that says we can't expand the discussion to include other players since some have repeatedly cited "knows the club well" and "he was a successful player" as examples of why he should get the job. We've already demonstrated that other ex Fergie era players have mostly flopped as managers, and so the question then becomes why wouldn't Giggs do the same.
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Because he's a different fecking person?
 
Walrus said:
As you just said yourself, through keen powers of observation, Giggs is our assistant manager and will have been for several years by the time he would be appointed. Giggs has his coaching badges, an interest in the managers job, decades of experience within the club. In short, a night and day difference to Cantona. There. Is. No. Comparison.

All you are doing is just trying to wind people up with these sorts of statements. I have had 40 pages of it and it starts to wear on me.
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Same here. Funny thing is when I referenced some examples of successful players turned coaches from other sports @Raoul tried to shut that down by telling me expanding the discussion to other sports or even other footballing decades was irrelevant. Yet when it suits @Cheesy and @Raoul can extend the discussion to 'hypothetical' scenarios involving Cantona. I'm now at the stage where I think it's time for us all to agree to disagree.
 
Rory 7 said:
But you admit that it possible for a player to also be a successful manager? I hope so. Because your original post seemed to suggest the two were mutually exclusive, we have now established that the two aren't. Good. We're making progress.

Sorry to come across like a patronising cnut but your assertion that playing and managing are 'chalk' and 'cheese' is just so myopic. The arguments against Giggs taking over are put forward in such a binary manner e.g. A great player won't result in A great manager. There could be some grey areas here you know.
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On the contrary - every single argument for Giggs as a manager is based on a delusional fantacism that suspends logic for feel good romance. Not only is that rampantly irresponsible, but its also bad business. Let's hope more rational minds prevail in the end.
 
Walrus said:
As you just said yourself, through keen powers of observation, Giggs is our assistant manager and will have been for several years by the time he would be appointed. Giggs has his coaching badges, an interest in the managers job, decades of experience within the club. In short, a night and day difference to Cantona. There. Is. No. Comparison.

All you are doing is just trying to wind people up with these sorts of statements. I have had 40 pages of it and it starts to wear on me.
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Which is useful and all, but doesn't really make a case for being our manager. Being our assistant manager isn't that much impressive than any of our other assistant managers. He'll have been our assistant for a few years by the time LVG leaves; it's still relatively inexperienced in comparison to other top managers.

Giggs having his coaching badges is, again, useful since he wants to become a manager, but it's not really evidence to suggest he'll be a good appointment.

Abandoning the Cantona comparison, we can look at other club legends who have managerial experience, and who have their coaching badges: figures like Roy Keane, Steve Bruce, and Mark Hughes. Again, I know that their circumstances are massively different to Giggs' - I'm not trying to do an entirely direct comparison - but I'm saying that, ultimately, the reasons for Giggs being our next manager that don't revolve around his legendary status at the club are incredibly tenuous and limited.

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, either. If I wanted to do that, I quite easily could. I'm merely stating that I find some of the reasons being cited for Giggs' potential appointment to be absolutely absurd. Some of those who back him for the job seem to be taking it as a slight whenever anyone else, understandably, finds it to be a ridiculous notion.
 
Cheesy said:
But no matter how we paint it, he is in the running because he's a United legend. Again, as I've said, I understand that it's not the sole reason for his potential appointment, but it's the entire basis upon which it's built: the romanticism of it is shrouded in his legendary status.

Yes, he's currently got a role at the club, but as I've already said, this is no more impressive than past assistants who wouldn't even be considered for the role. The reason Giggs is being considered, when they otherwise wouldn't be, is because he's a United legend.

The presence of LVG isn't particularly a reason for appointing Giggs. Yeah, it's great for Giggs to learn from a top manager, but it doesn't particularly mean he'll be successful. Past players of Fergie's who have gone on to become mediocre managers can attest to that.

The continuity is problematic in that, again, it's only going to be useful if Giggs is any good as a manager. If he's not, he'll be out the door. Hell, even if he is successful, he could soon grow tired of management, or decide he'd like a new challenge elsewhere. The continuity he'd supposedly bring isn't guaranteed; in fact, it's no more guaranteed than the continuity we hoped Moyes would bring when he was appointed.

I get what you're saying: you like the idea of appointing Giggs, and it's not just due to his legendary status. But the problem is, no matter how we try to spin it, his status as a player is ultimately the primary reason he's even in consideration for the job.
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That is the bit you and I don't agree. I really don't agree with you on that. He's in the running for a whole range of reasons, legend status is not the primary one. In my opinion!
 
Raoul said:
One also routinely hears Cantona's name bandied about in these threads. Just shows how far some are willing to suspend logic and capitulate to fanaticism.
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Who exactly is it bandying Cantona's name around in these threads again? The ones suspending logic?
 
Rory 7 said:
Same here. Funny thing is when I referenced some examples of successful players turned coaches from other sports @Raoul tried to shut that down by telling me expanding the discussion to other sports or even other footballing decades was irrelevant. Yet when it suits @Cheesy and @Raoul can extend the discussion to 'hypothetical' scenarios involving Cantona. I'm now at the stage where I think it's time for us all to agree to disagree.
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Nobody tried to shut you down - I just said it was utterly irrelevant to compare Ryan Giggs with Mike Ditka as if there's some rational correlation between a 1960s American footballer transitioning into 1980s coaching and an English league player who just retired last year in a completely different sport - that's why I dismissed it, as would just about everyone who hears it, after laughing out loud of course.
 
Raoul said:
On the contrary - every single argument for Giggs as a manager is based on a delusional fantacism that suspends logic for feel good romance. Not only is that rampantly irresponsible, but its also bad business. Let's hope more rational minds prevail in the end.
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:lol: And every single argument against him is based on myopic conservatism.
 
Cheesy said:
But the primary reasoning for Giggs taking over (ultimately the only reason he's in consideration), is due to his legendary status at the club as a player. If Giggs had played for us for a brief two-year spell, spending the majority of his career with Spurs or Everton, then we wouldn't be thinking about him.

As such, if Giggs is worth considering, then it's a bit daft to suddenly say it's absurd when someone suggests Eric Cantona. The only reason that was given to me for Giggs being a stronger candidate than Cantona was that he's currently our assistant manager and has coaching badges; again, if we're going by that criteria then Mike Phelan could quite easily be up for consideration.
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The primary reason for Giggs taking over is due the meticulous planning that has placed him as LVG's apprentice with a long term view of him being his successor should he be judged fit to do so by LVG , the board and the tea lady.
 
Raoul said:
Its been offered up in the past, quite recently infact and quite regularly over the years.
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But not by anyone who you are discussing it with right now, apart from Cheesy, who is agreeing with you.
 
Rory 7 said:
:lol: And every single argument against him is based on myopic conservatism.
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Every single argument against him is based on sound logic - as in you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in any industry with zero experience getting hired into the biggest job available. That is why so many find the idea of Giggs as manager so mindbendingly fatuous.
 
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