The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

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Walrus said:
Well whether you like it or not, Giggs is already involved in the football side, as is Butt.

The notion that just because they played a decade ago that they must all be dinosaurs who dont even know the "new" back pass rule, is silly. Giggs, Neville and Butt all have their coaching badges, and have been involved in coaching (whether United or England) for years. What have they done for you to assume that they are living in the past?

To say that you dont want ex-players of the quality of Beckham or Scholes involved at all in the football side of the club, is equally silly. We are talking about two of the finest players of their generation. I certainly dont want them involved in tactics and more high level stuff. But as technical coaches, they have a huge amount of personal experience and knowledge to pass on.
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Yes but thankfully only him and only under a supporting brief, I don't want an infestation to set in.

Have you heard any of them talk about football? Scholes, Phillip Neville, Giggs and Butt sound archaic, most of them have had a shot at punditry and they have nothing insightful to say, they all come across as out of touch and out of time. Having coaching badges means veyr little when you look at some of the tools that bounce from job to job doing mediocrity.

No it's not silly, wanting someone who has done feck all as a manager to take over the biggest club in the country in the most competetive league in the world where all our rivals have top, proven winners managing them is the height of stupidity, but I have tried to respect you on this. I don't want any of them involved, I want the club to move on with the new ideas and fresh personnel not all linked to Fergie.
 
Walrus said:
I am a big supporter of Giggs (obviously) but even I acknowledge that he is inexperienced and needs to find his own style, his own path, his own methods. My concern with having the rest of the CO92 involved right off the bat is that it will become a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth". There needs to be no doubt or confusion as to who is in charge, who is accountable, and who is the decision maker.

Once Giggs is settled, by all means bring in the boys, but wait until he has found his feet.
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If Giggs is the boss, he will decide who he wants advice from surely.
 
@Chesterlestreet

* Do people think the likes of LVG and Fergie are just throwing out their personal opinions about Giggs?

Expressing their own personal opinion of what they would like to see or expect to see happen.


* Do people think the likes of LVG and Fergie are just being polite, or just bigging up a bloke they happen to like on a personal level - rather than throwing out their actual opinions on said bloke's managerial potential?

No

* Do people think our decision makers are gamblers?

Gambling is an inherent part of capitalism but not excessively no.

* Do people think our decision makers are clowns?

No

* Do people think our owners don't really give a shit about what happens at the club as long as we keep qualifying for the CL?

It's not really black and white is it. They are supporters in their own way they probably watch our games a bit and like seeing us win. But the bottom line is more important.

* Do people think our owners are romantics - and that they like the idea of Giggs as a manager so much that they're willing to lose money on having him in charge?

No. They might be willing to make a gesture to the fans though, if they thought it would go down well. Of course, they might not give a shit. I always used to assume they didn't. But you never know. And a cynic might say it would maybe give them cover to do other things that might be less popular with fans. Buy them a bit of goodwill. Again, no reason to think that, but it's a possible motive.

* Do people think the owners are - wrongfully, insanely - convinced that Giggs will turn out to be a manager good enough to conquer the world?

Not convinced no. Possibly entertaining it as a possibility if people they respect are telling them that.

* Do people think at all?

Deeply, to the exclusion of other more productive activities.

* Do people think Eboue should be part of this equation?

Probably not no.
 
Red Dreams said:
Think the idea of the Class of 92 is really about accessing a database of key players/some of whom are staff now, drawing on their experiences in how things were done.

Not about managing by committee.
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Except that the reality of how things were done at United was that SAF kept innovating. When he realised there was a gap in his knowledge he hired someone to fill it. He was a great delegator, great at recruitment, great at bringing in new (potentially risky) influences on the coaching and backroom side, as well as on the playing side.

Ex-players joke that SAF couldn't run a training session and that's significant, he controlled everything, he oversaw everything, he was the main man, but he didn't do it all himself. Nor did he surround himself with an unchanging set of yes men. Across the decades, he reinvented himself as well as the team. It's arguable that as he got older, he lost some of that drive to reinvent, and surrounded himself with friends, but that's a different question.

Back to Giggs then. The last thing he needs whispering in his ears is the Class of 92. Ironically, of all of them, Beckham probably has the best CV from that (knows different things) perspective. However it's very unlikely he'll also acquire the CV of a top coach, which would be what Giggs will need at his side if he does become manager.
 
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Ramshock said:
The difference between what I said and yours is quite stark. Im going on several years of John Henry having control of Liverpool, you are going on four games that Ryan Giggs had.
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Did you miss where I said that it was merely an opinion? I don't think that an unproven Giggs is a good idea for our manager and I'd be very surprised if he's not a complete disaster, but I didn't state this as fact, it's simply what I am worried about and I believe that it's ok to hold these concerns.

My preference would be for us to go for an experienced and proven manager and for Giggs to cut his managerial teeth at a smaller club.
 
Adebesi said:
@Chesterlestreet

* Do people think the likes of LVG and Fergie are just throwing out their personal opinions about Giggs?

Expressing their own personal opinion of what they would like to see or expect to see happen.


* Do people think the likes of LVG and Fergie are just being polite, or just bigging up a bloke they happen to like on a personal level - rather than throwing out their actual opinions on said bloke's managerial potential?

No

* Do people think our decision makers are gamblers?

Gambling is an inherent part of capitalism but not excessively no.

* Do people think our decision makers are clowns?

No

* Do people think our owners don't really give a shit about what happens at the club as long as we keep qualifying for the CL?

It's not really black and white is it. They are supporters in their own way they probably watch our games a bit and like seeing us win. But the bottom line is more important.

* Do people think our owners are romantics - and that they like the idea of Giggs as a manager so much that they're willing to lose money on having him in charge?

No. They might be willing to make a gesture to the fans though, if they thought it would go down well. Of course, they might not give a shit. I always used to assume they didn't. But you never know. And a cynic might say it would maybe give them cover to do other things that might be less popular with fans. Buy them a bit of goodwill. Again, no reason to think that, but it's a possible motive.

* Do people think the owners are - wrongfully, insanely - convinced that Giggs will turn out to be a manager good enough to conquer the world?

Not convinced no. Possibly entertaining it as a possibility if people they respect are telling them that.

* Do people think at all?

Deeply, to the exclusion of other more productive activities.

* Do people think Eboue should be part of this equation?

Probably not no.
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Fair enough answers - I like 'em well enough.

Personally I hope we're willing to gamble a bit. Just hiring the most obvious candidate for the job at all times strikes me as something an accountant, not a football fan, would be in favour of.
 
Since there is nothing but romanticism behind the push to get Giggs apppointed (given he has zero track record), it should be pointed out that it would go against United tradition. Busby (ex-City and Liverpool) came in with a new approach to coaching (the first tracksuit manager in England). Ferguson was brought in as a tried and tested winner in Scotland and Europe. Lower down in the pantheon, Docherty, Sexton and Big Ron also had some track record, as did Moyes for what it's worth. Speaking of whom, i believe that the Glazers will not spin the roulette wheel again after their experience with the "cut from the same cloth" Chosen One.
 
There is literally no logical argument for Giggs being the next United manager. None. Its romantic bullshit. It would be akin to Liverpool hiring Gerrard, rather then Klopp.

If thats the route we go down, we would deserve everything we get. In the same way we deserved everything we got for hiring Moyes.
 
Sam said:
There is literally no logical argument for Giggs being the next United manager. None. Its romantic bullshit. It would be akin to Liverpool hiring Gerrard, rather then Klopp.

If thats the route we go down, we would deserve everything we get. In the same way we deserved everything we got for hiring Moyes.
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I disagree.

Giggs came through the ranks at Old Trafford under one of, if not the greatest manager to ever grace the game. Unlike many other players, he was able to adapt to losing the physical attributes that had previously set him apart from others (notably his pace), and learned to play in a new way in a new position, remaining an effective member of one of the best sides in Europe right into his late 30s. He's completed his UEFA Pro Licence, the highest coaching qualification you can obtain, and has spent his entire career learning from SAF and now LvG. He'll undoubtedly have picked up things from even Moyes' stint in charge. He's a club legend having spent his entire playing career at the club, winning everything there was for him to win, and he'll be a respected figure by every player that pulls on a United shirt.

Of course there's a great deal of romanticism and sentimentality involved in discussing Giggs' chances of becoming the next Manchester United manager, but to say it's equivalent to Liverpool hiring Gerrard is just absurd. Guardiola is seen by many as one of the best active managers around, and his only experience prior to taking over Barcelona was a single season in charge of their B team. Giggs has managed to gain experience that very few looking to go into management have, and I'm not so quietly optimistic that he will, in fact, be a good fit as the manager of Manchester United.
 
Sam said:
There is literally no logical argument for Giggs being the next United manager. None. Its romantic bullshit. It would be akin to Liverpool hiring Gerrard, rather then Klopp.

If thats the route we go down, we would deserve everything we get. In the same way we deserved everything we got for hiring Moyes.
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Giggs 13 - Gerrard 0

Never ever compare the two.
 
Mods ban me if you like but.....

F**k me! Posters on here are comparing Giggs to Gerrard. Club legend? 13. THIRTEEN league titles at United and cnuts on here have the temerity/mendacity/balls to compare the two. Jesus Wept!!!!! Can't you so called fans see what Giggs stands for? I'll debate the Giggs as potential manager stuff. But comparing Giggs to Gerrard??? Seriously. Wise up!
 
Alex99 said:
I disagree.

Giggs came through the ranks at Old Trafford under one of, if not the greatest manager to ever grace the game. Unlike many other players, he was able to adapt to losing the physical attributes that had previously set him apart from others (notably his pace), and learned to play in a new way in a new position, remaining an effective member of one of the best sides in Europe right into his late 30s. He's completed his UEFA Pro Licence, the highest coaching qualification you can obtain, and has spent his entire career learning from SAF and now LvG. He'll undoubtedly have picked up things from even Moyes' stint in charge. He's a club legend having spent his entire playing career at the club, winning everything there was for him to win, and he'll be a respected figure by every player that pulls on a United shirt.

Of course there's a great deal of romanticism and sentimentality involved in discussing Giggs' chances of becoming the next Manchester United manager, but to say it's equivalent to Liverpool hiring Gerrard is just absurd. Guardiola is seen by many as one of the best active managers around, and his only experience prior to taking over Barcelona was a single season in charge of their B team. Giggs has managed to gain experience that very few looking to go into management have, and I'm not so quietly optimistic that he will, in fact, be a good fit as the manager of Manchester United.
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Guardiola is the exception (even if we discount his experience of actually managing a side in Spain's second division, which I think was hugely important in allowing him to grow into the role of being number one). Keane was a better player than Giggs and played under two of the greatest managers in British football history and was much more obviously a leader - he failed in management. Ditto Robson, ditto Adams etc. I see Giggs' current role as a sop to the more sentimental among our support while Van Gaal performs root and branch reform of an institution that had entered its decadent phase.
 
Rory 7 said:
Mods ban me if you like but.....

F**k me! Posters on here are comparing Giggs to Gerrard. Club legend? 13. THIRTEEN league titles at United and cnuts on here have the temerity/mendacity/balls to compare the two. Jesus Wept!!!!! Can't you so called fans see what Giggs stands for? I'll debate the Giggs as potential manager stuff. But comparing Giggs to Gerrard??? Seriously. Wise up!
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I think they were referring to legendary status within the respective clubs. In any case, it's unfair to compare the two solely on the basis of league medals given the huge disparity in the quality of United v Liverpool during their careers (by that definition, Ronnie Rosenthal is better than McGrath and Whiteside). They are about the same level IMO and neither come across as managerial material unless you are talking about Salford or Southport.
 
Pretty sure @Sam was just comparing the prospect of hiring a club legend over proven manager, not comparing their credentials per se. Nothing to get worked up about.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I think they were referring to legendary status within the respective clubs. In any case, it's unfair to compare the two solely on the basis of league medals given the huge disparity in the quality of United v Liverpool during their careers (by that definition, Ronnie Rosenthal is better than McGrath and Whiteside). They are about the same level IMO and neither come across as managerial material unless you are talking about Salford or Southport.
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Dismissing Giggs as a potential United manager by comparing him to Gerrard just proves how far the anti-Giggs brigade are prepared to go. That's as irrational an argument as I've read on here!
 
@Rory 7 I don't think you understood the argument. The comparison is not with respect to how much Giggs has won and how much Gerrard has won. Its about their legendary status at the respective clubs and somehow you are trying to spin this into a 'How dare you' argument.

I don't see why that's such a wrong comparison to make. Giggs won a lot, agreed but how does that make him a better manager than say Pep or Klopp or Jose? He is highly inexperienced and we shouldn't be taking gambles.
 
Rory 7 said:
Mods ban me if you like but.....

F**k me! Posters on here are comparing Giggs to Gerrard. Club legend? 13. THIRTEEN league titles at United and cnuts on here have the temerity/mendacity/balls to compare the two. Jesus Wept!!!!! Can't you so called fans see what Giggs stands for? I'll debate the Giggs as potential manager stuff. But comparing Giggs to Gerrard??? Seriously. Wise up!
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Yeah Gerrards peak was higher, he also had a more important role in liverpools successes without sleeping with his brothers wife . Hard to compare the two.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Guardiola is the exception (even if we discount his experience of actually managing a side in Spain's second division, which I think was hugely important in allowing him to grow into the role of being number one). Keane was a better player than Giggs and played under two of the greatest managers in British football history and was much more obviously a leader - he failed in management. Ditto Robson, ditto Adams etc. I see Giggs' current role as a sop to the more sentimental among our support while Van Gaal performs root and branch reform of an institution that had entered its decadent phase.
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You make a good argument mentioning Robson, Keane and Adams. Also hit the nail on the head with the decadent phase.

It would be nice if Giggs could reproduce what Guardiola did at Barca. I just don't see any evidence that he has anything ground breaking to make us different.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Guardiola is the exception (even if we discount his experience of actually managing a side in Spain's second division, which I think was hugely important in allowing him to grow into the role of being number one). Keane was a better player than Giggs and played under two of the greatest managers in British football history and was much more obviously a leader - he failed in management. Ditto Robson, ditto Adams etc. I see Giggs' current role as a sop to the more sentimental among our support while Van Gaal performs root and branch reform of an institution that had entered its decadent phase.
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Bollocks was keane a better player than giggs
 
MJJ said:
Yeah Gerrards peak was higher, he also had a more important role in liverpools successes without sleeping with his brothers wife . Hard to compare the two.
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He also tried to leave the club three times. Legend
 
Don't you people think that board at United would hire any Tom,Dick or Harry based on some romanticism especially after the Moyes Debacle? The board would definitely be hesitant to give the reins of United to Giggs if they feel he is out of depth.
 
Rory 7 said:
Dismissing Giggs as a potential United manager by comparing him to Gerrard just proves how far the anti-Giggs brigade are prepared to go. That's as irrational an argument as I've read on here!
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:lol: why has everything in here become a brigade/team over the last two seasons ffs?
 
Alex99 said:
I disagree.

Giggs came through the ranks at Old Trafford under one of, if not the greatest manager to ever grace the game. Unlike many other players, he was able to adapt to losing the physical attributes that had previously set him apart from others (notably his pace), and learned to play in a new way in a new position, remaining an effective member of one of the best sides in Europe right into his late 30s. He's completed his UEFA Pro Licence, the highest coaching qualification you can obtain, and has spent his entire career learning from SAF and now LvG. He'll undoubtedly have picked up things from even Moyes' stint in charge. He's a club legend having spent his entire playing career at the club, winning everything there was for him to win, and he'll be a respected figure by every player that pulls on a United shirt.

Of course there's a great deal of romanticism and sentimentality involved in discussing Giggs' chances of becoming the next Manchester United manager, but to say it's equivalent to Liverpool hiring Gerrard is just absurd. Guardiola is seen by many as one of the best active managers around, and his only experience prior to taking over Barcelona was a single season in charge of their B team. Giggs has managed to gain experience that very few looking to go into management have, and I'm not so quietly optimistic that he will, in fact, be a good fit as the manager of Manchester United.
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All well and good but at the very least he's got to prove that all these advantages have indeed made him a good manager, we do not need to risk it ourselves. He came up under the greatest manager, check, but so did Koeman yet ten years into his managerial career he is still struggling. The point we are putting across is that, yes he is suited to the job but despite all these advantages is he a great manager? Because surely a guy like Keane had them and even tasted initial success but it all unravelled in quick time.
 
I think it would be a disaster in the making.

There was a video in 2014(posted on redcafe) with Giggs talking to the players before a game when he was the interim manager. I just remember watching it and thinking, "Giggs just doesn't have that managerial aura." Plenty of great players have been awful managers. I think the fact that Giggs is a club legend and been a fantastic servant to the club has no bearing on his credentials. I mean heck, Maradona is one of the greatest players ever and he was awful as Argentina's manager. I think he needs to manage elsewhere 1st and prove himself before becoming manager of Manchester United.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Since there is nothing but romanticism behind the push to get Giggs apppointed (given he has zero track record), it should be pointed out that it would go against United tradition. Busby (ex-City and Liverpool) came in with a new approach to coaching (the first tracksuit manager in England). Ferguson was brought in as a tried and tested winner in Scotland and Europe. Lower down in the pantheon, Docherty, Sexton and Big Ron also had some track record, as did Moyes for what it's worth. Speaking of whom, i believe that the Glazers will not spin the roulette wheel again after their experience with the "cut from the same cloth" Chosen One.
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All true and I think they will remember clearly how it was them that were left to pick up the tab whilst Fergie engrossed himself in book writing, Sir Bobby is hiding under the rock only to emerge when praising Rooney's feat of scoring fifty goals against obscure opponents and David Gill has gone on to try and clean up FIFA. If the Glazers allow that mob to install Giggs like they did with Moyes I'd be very shocked.
 
Smores said:
:lol: why has everything in here become a brigade/team over the last two seasons ffs?
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Because it pretty much has, any nuanced views get drowned out by the opposing extremes at war with each other, so you end up with these black and white debates dominating everything... And it's been a lot longer than 2 years :D

People are actually entertaining the Gerrard comparisons... One is an assistant manager, has had his coaching badges for years now, has won a lot more than the other, but they are both club legends so yea... That's the relevant part in this argument.
 
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itso 7 said:
If the Glazers allow that mob to install Giggs like they did with Moyes I'd be very shocked.
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If Giggs isn't the next manager I'll be shocked, of course that'd probably mean that one of the top managers were available and we went with them... So I'd still be happy.
 
itso 7 said:
All true and I think they will remember clearly how it was them that were left to pick up the tab whilst Fergie engrossed himself in book writing, Sir Bobby is hiding under the rock only to emerge when praising Rooney's feat of scoring fifty goals against obscure opponents and David Gill has gone on to try and clean up FIFA. If the Glazers allow that mob to install Giggs like they did with Moyes I'd be very shocked.
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Ferguson came out a week or two back and said that United had gotten the Moyes appointment right.

Imo that should rule him out from having any input on Van Gaal's successor. Making such a mistake in the first place was bad but to still be insisting you were right when the results were so disastrous is delusional.
 
afrocentricity said:
Because it pretty much has, any nuanced views get drowned out by the opposing extremes at war with each other, so you end up with these black and white debates dominating everything... And it's been a lot longer than 2 years :D

People are actually entertaining the Gerrard comparisons... One is an assistant manager, has had his coaching badges for years now, has won a lot more than the other, but they are both club legends so yea... That's the relevant part in this argument.
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It's the lack of managerial experience that's the relevant bit.
 
Tarrou said:
It's the lack of managerial experience that's the relevant bit.
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Ugh... Ones an assistant manager, one is still playing football...

If you can't think of a better comparison, maybe it's best to just think of a another way to make your point...

I think what some don't get is these comparisons may work when you're preaching to the choir, and those that agree with you may pat you on the back etc... But to those your are arguing with it just sounds like, you either don't know what you're talking about, or haven't taking the time to think about your argument... it goes for both sides
 
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settembrini said:
Ferguson came out a week or two back and said that United had gotten the Moyes appointment right.

Imo that should rule him out from having any input on Van Gaal's successor. Making such a mistake in the first place was bad but to still be insisting you were right when the results were so disastrous is delusional.
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I love the man to bits but his simplistic view on what it takes to be a Manchester United manager is daft and will kill us as a top club if he is not stopped. He was si great at his job that he thought it so piss easy and we could recalibrate Moyes into a top manager. That he is now pushing for Giggs is nothing new and the concern is that he was doing so the day we dumped Moyes. Why when it was clear he wasn't ready then?
On this issue, I'm afraid to say, but Fergie's opinion is flawed by his closeness to Giggs just as it was by him seeing his younger self in Moyes. As a club we have to guard against jumping into this appointment because it will ruin our relationship with the player that epitomises what we stand for.
Moving forward I hope ee change our structure to one that is more in line with our new reality post Fergie. We need a DOF to help out Woodward and the manager but most importantly we need to dilute the manager's importance on the football side so that when they fail we aren't starting from scratch all the time. In this role I'd suggest Giggs himself because he knows what it takes to play for us and can be able to build a team that reflects the club's aspirations like Mathias Sammer has done at Bayern.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Personally I hope we're willing to gamble a bit. Just hiring the most obvious candidate for the job at all times strikes me as something an accountant, not a football fan, would be in favour of.
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As businessmen, who have little interest in Soccer - the Glazers will make clinical decisions, like accountants.
They went down the romantic route (allowing SAF to appoint Moyes) and the Glazers lost a huge amount of money. To get back into the CL, they are having to invest heavily (£200M+). To most people (even billionaires), this is an obscene amount of money.
Unless they have completely lost their senses and want to take another £200M gamble, they won't be making that same mistake again.

Most likely, they will hire the man, most appropriate for the job (ie. not a man with no previous managerial experience)...in exactly the same way an organization/company appoints CEOs or senior management staff.

And I can well imagine that when the time comes, the Glazers will remind Woodward about the Moyes fiasco. They'll probably tell him, "We don't want another Moyes...that was a f***ing disaster. Get the best man for the job".
 
The only way Giggs can be our next manager depends on the success of LVG. If we win the league next year then perhaps for the continuity argument, giving it to Giggs maybe the best option. I always wanted that continuity after Fergie but Moyes's ego ruined that by getting rid of the back room staff.

But if we need a manager to take us to the next level, it's too big of a risk to expect Giggs to do that.
 
Where were you all when Moyes got appointed btw?

There weren't many of us pointing out the various misgivings we had, and those of us that did got rinsed by the hive... Now most of the hive are fronting like they always knew Moyes was going to fail. Just like most of the caf knew Martial would work out, after the collective losing of shit on deadline day....
 
afrocentricity said:
Where were you all when Moyes got appointed btw?

There weren't many of us pointing out the various misgivings we had, and those of us that did got rinsed by the hive... Now most of the hive are fronting like they always knew Moyes was going to fail. Just like most of the caf knew Martial would work out, after the collective losing of shit on deadline day....
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I wasn't on the caf then - but I did see my arse over that appointment. Having said that, I thought he would be 'steady' until we appointed someone 'proper'. He was after all in the premier league for more than a decade and surely had enough to at least keep us in 4th? But the fact he crumbled like he did was a bit of a surprise if I'm honest -partly because of his crap decisions and partly because the United job is much more complicated than any of us supporters ever imagined.
 
Fair enough, the writing was on the wall for me as soon as he sacked the backroom... I made a thread at the time. I hoped it would work tho...
I don't think many managers can manage United, the beast that it is now... I don't think Giggs can without the right people around him. I think if he gets the nod it will be on that basis...
 
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