I know nothing about the geezer. As far as I am concerned he doesn't exist.
I do prefer Ronaldo having a partner he can link up better with, that's why I like Tostao-Ronaldo.
The Americas Draft, SF1 Skizzo/Pat vs Enigma/Joga
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
- Start date
I know nothing about the geezer. As far as I am concerned he doesn't exist.
I do prefer Ronaldo having a partner he can link up better with, that's why I like Tostao-Ronaldo.
Aye, excellent game @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard and great drafting as usual. Initially I had you as the team to beat after the drafting process.
Hard luck @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard, it was a very close call.
I think I would have enjoyed watching your team more. Sure, Mané is there, but your potential combinations up front look sexier to me.
For me it was differentials in quality in some key roles that broke the deadlock
I think I would have enjoyed watching your team more. Sure, Mané is there, but your potential combinations up front look sexier to me.
For me it was differentials in quality in some key roles that broke the deadlock
Cheers lads and well done. I enjoyed the discussion here, less so finding myself on the wrong end of a beating at one stage
. I'm glad that the scoreline got a bit more respectable towards then end as I really like this team. I tried not to get too OTT in an effort to claw myself back into it, but I will say now that its over that the Vidal for Veron tradeoff isn't really the negative I portrayed it to be. Pluses and minuses of course, but overall a good move I'd say.Cheers Anto and I appreciate the positive feedback on my team throughout. Twas a bit deflating in the early stages when it was getting no love at all and some of the criticisms seemed a bit mad to me, mainly playing Andrade on the right side.
Out of interest how do you rate Pavoni and have you seen him play much? Its a disappointment to me that I don't really know anything more about him now than I did when I first drafted him. On the plus side, I thoroughly enjoyed researching Junior in midfield, Carlos Mozer and Andrade, as well as watching more of my heavy hitters in attack, so its been a great draft for me in general.
Nice to see the voting a bit more evenly spread. The gap wasn't as big as previous polling suggested.
Cheers lads and well done. I enjoyed the discussion here, less so finding myself on the wrong end of a beating at one stage
Yeah the score line early on wasn't a fair reflection of the match and even the current scoreline is flattering towards us.
Fair enough mate. Although I did have a chuckle, as Veron in the first few matches was seemingly painted as someone, whose off the ball weaknesses where always about to be exposed, and he didn't help our case. But even after dropping him, he wasn't doing us any favors from the bench
. His workrate and presence off the ball was amongst the best of his category (Didi, Valderrama, Gerson, Customer etc) but whilst the others get off scott free for the most part in this draft (apart from Valderrama maybe), Veron always seemed to have his being pointed out. Tbf, it didn't help that we had to play some strong midfields and I'd have done the same thing if I was the opposition manager. In fact I think I'd done that before I think. However I did praise his playmaking ability etc, which I don't think Veron enjoyed in this draft. Vidal was ideal for this match though imo.Fwiw, I love assymetrical setups myself, esp the classic Italian ones and perhaps I was a tad bit too harsh on your side. The only real issue I had was Joya on the right as everything pointed to him being a left sided player - from the full matches that I'd seen of Penarol (against River & Real) and all the other sources etc. Apart from that and perhaps a more attacking LWB I thought your setup would have worked out nicely.
Anto would have more info on him and maybe Gio, who'd made a comment on him earlier, but from what I'd seen of him, he deemed like a balanced FB who was solid defensively and a powerful overlapper but not necessarily a wing-back. Basing this off the limited WC footage that I'd seen of him and perhaps he had a different playing style for his club sides. 50 something goals in 400 or so games is definitely quite impressive for a full back.
Cheers mate. I expected a tight game and tight score as you had some wonderful individuals. This time round for me in this game the midfield was the decisive factor hence I didn't put that much stress on Garrincha vs Pavoni/Junior. More of the dual Junior role than him containing/handling Garrincha is what stood out for me.
For V.Andrade I agree with you as a matter of fact and putting him at RB was spot on. That's his best position there and with a more attacking winger in front of him it's his best game.
Tostao is one of my favorites so can't say a bad word for him, neither Joya, Ronaldo, even Pavoni who from what I know of him is really classy defender.
As for us as Joga mentioned Vidal was really an upgrade to Veron in the sense of the draft itself. Most managers go with 2 DM's or 1 DM and another who is solid defensively and while Veron playmaking ability from deep went a bit unappreciated, he was often singled out for his contribution in defence.
The reinforcement rounds have been really kind to us as I thought Mazhar would nick Ruggeri or Zizinho/Erico in the round before, which helped a lot to upgrade our team.
Tostao/Ronaldo is a tasty combination and tbh my only concern there was that inside left channel that he had to occupy with only Pavoni against our solid right side. All in all it was a close match for me and as always enjoyed the in game discussions.
Agreed, and the only surprise to me was that I'd expected both Julinho and Cubilla to play significant roles in this draft on account of the lack of quality Lbs, but neither seemed to get much traction, esp in the reinforcement rounds. Esp Julinho who is probably the best RW in the draft after Garrincha and Jairzinho. Lack of footage doesn't help his cause but his credentials are as solid as they come, both his club and international body of work.
Agree that on watchability Ronaldo - Tostao - Bochini - Junior and co look even more aesthetically pleasing than Garrincha - Erico - Zizinho, although I would've killed to see both units play.
Very close call and I considered changing my vote (despite the unavailability of such option) many times. Glad to see that the initial handicap was shortened.
Very close call and I considered changing my vote (despite the unavailability of such option) many times. Glad to see that the initial handicap was shortened.
I haven't I'm afraid, but am glad you stuck to him despite lack of footage. By all accounts he was a great defender and captained that Independiente side which was almost as dominant in the 70s as Peñarol had been in the 60s. What little I have seen of him paints him as a solid and reliable defender, but his runs in attacking phases are most impressive. Not a fancy dribbler or anything, just seemed to time and execute his runs perfectly to go along with the swash-buckling attacking moves orchestrated by Bochini. Bochini advancing with one twos centrally drew the defensive effort infield and this fecker just showed up out of nowhere to exploit the space created.
That at least is what sticks in my mind from the few games I've seen from Independiente. One of those that in another side I would have regarded as a good leftback who can support in attack, but with Bochini in the same team could quite possibly wind up performing as the best leftback in the draft
I've never considered as being weak or even average in the air. Not saying he's a historical monster in that area like Ruggeri for instance, but he's a proper athlete with a great leap on him. When my mate went to see PSG last year, the one thing that impressed him wasn't what Ibrahimovic or Verratti did, but the spring that Silva had in the air.
Cheers Anto. Its a shame that the two full matches that are readily available are a 3-0 defeat to Ajax (terrible, terrible video that kept on cutting out) and the 2-0 defeat to the Netherlands at WC '74 where their fecking right winger Rep scored both the goals. I just couldn't muster the enthusiasm to trawl through either match as it hardly seemed the most promising source material to sell him from.
In terms of individual quality where would you say my biggest weaknesses lay? I'm assuming its fair to say Godin has now surpassed Pereyra as far as Uruguayan CBs go, so there was a quality differential between our respective centre back pairings, and other than that I assumed Pavoni was seen a weak link.
Yeah the score line early on wasn't a fair reflection of the match and even the current scoreline is flattering towards us.
Fair enough mate. Although I did have a chuckle, as Veron in the first few matches was seemingly painted as someone, whose off the ball weaknesses where always about to be exposed, and he didn't help our case. But even after dropping him, he wasn't doing us any favors from the bench
Fwiw, I love assymetrical setups myself, esp the classic Italian ones and perhaps I was a tad bit too harsh on your side. The only real issue I had was Joya on the right as everything pointed to him being a left sided player - from the full matches that I'd seen of Penarol (against River & Real) and all the other sources etc. Apart from that and perhaps a more attacking LWB I thought your setup would have worked out nicely.
Anto would have more info on him and maybe Gio, who'd made a comment on him earlier, but from what I'd seen of him, he deemed like a balanced FB who was solid defensively and a powerful overlapper but not necessarily a wing-back. Basing this off the limited WC footage that I'd seen of him and perhaps he had a different playing style for his club sides. 50 something goals in 400 or so games is definitely quite impressive for a full back.
Veron brings considerable baggage alright, to an unfair extent IMO. I've generally defended his workrate (not that I would have if you'd played him here
), and there's a good 'all touches' video at the tail-end of his career in a Copa Libertadores final for Estudiantes that highlights his defensive contribution excellently. I think I might have mentioned it to Gio way back, but I distinctly remember an article in one of my old Football Italia magazines from his Sampdoria days that presented him as a kind of unflashy grafter, which underated his abilities of course but does illustrate that his reputation as a luxury playmaker is a fairly recent development. I must see if I can dig that magazine out from my attic at some stage.Pavoni did seem a good attacking threat, but I think he was a semi-regular penalty taker and scored alot of free kicks too, so the goal tally doesn't necessarily indicate a huge attacking prowess from open play I suppose. I don't think you were too harsh on my team BTW - it was quite the gentlemanly match thread really at the stage in a draft.
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Yeah, as far as I'm concerned our all-time defensive pair is Godín-Nasazzi, and he isn't even finished yet. Fingers-crossed he and Suárez can keep up this form through to 2018 (unlikely unfortunately, 2014 was their chance and Luis cocked it up).
As I said, I'm talking minor differences in individual quality but Zito>Rattin and Godín-Ruggeri>Pereyra-Silva. That's the central defensive core right there and, while I rate all six players, I could see Enigma/Joga's being more effective. Your CB pair was a bit sweeperish and would have worked better against a Ronaldo-Tostao, as I said. I think you lacked a bit of the steel either Godín or Ruggeri could have offered there. The upside was how it could turn into a three and have Pereyra minding Garrincha in a way neither Ruggeri or Godín would manage as effectively, but nobody seemed to care about that and I agreed this wasn't a game to overly emphasise Garrincha and his containment as there was plenty happening elsewhere.
The other one for me was Zanetti>Andrade. Not that they compete or that Andrade wasn't going to deliver on his task, just that Zanetti being the more complete player and not facing a clear and present danger on his flank would decidedly have an impact on this game and give him the freedom to own that flank. I saw @Gio arguing using Zanetti in a defensive role against him was having him on a handbrake (typical Gio dissing comment
), the fact is he can do that and do that better than most in this draft and here he could and would take the handbreak off and while everyone faffed around with Garrincha I could see a player of Zanetti's stature taking advantage of that and bossing his flank to provide the kind of crosses that would allow Erico to show his best attributes against a CB pair not best suited for them.Fine margins, but I thought that was the most obvious route to goals, by a distance.
BTW, I liked Verón in that role. In fact, in my eyes that side lost a fair bit of class and ability to run the game. I'd also expect Zizinho to be a better player with Verón in the side.
Agreed. In Serie A in the late 1990s he was the prototype all-round midfielder. Not quite the defensive bloody mindedness of a Davids or Simeone, but not the twinkle-toed floater of a Pirlo either. Some of his battles with Davids were legendary both domestically and at the World Cup. I rate him as a better player than Vidal because at his peak he brought much of Vidal's rangy physicality along with greater vision and superior passing. Can see why Vidal is in here and I suppose it depends on how much control you see the midfield having.Veron brings considerable baggage alright, to an unfair extent IMO. I've generally defended his workrate (not that I would have if you'd played him here
Verratti & Ibra on the pitch: I guess PSG won that game
Thiago Silva was really a Monster between 2011 & 2013, probably the best central defender in the world during this short timeframe IMO.