To each his own but I'd always take Best ahead of him.
The Americas Draft, SF1 Skizzo/Pat vs Enigma/Joga
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
- Start date
Nah it's wrong to label him as uncompetitive. He was just naive, childish and extremely carefree - which proved to be his undoing once he retired. It didn't matter to him one iota whether he was squaring up against a great Lb in a WC Final or was up against his friends in a knock-about in the neighborhood. If he was more responsible or disciplined, I highly doubt we'd have seen the unique and destructive trickster that was Garrincha. It's quite apt that he was labelled the most amateur professional footballer ever and was nicknamed 'The People's Joy' by the Brazilian masses.
It's a bit different in that sometimes we have early incarnations assumed to have what the later one had (e.g. Scholes in an AM role arriving late in the box to score and being the metronome, or an 80s RAM Schuster also being some form of midfield general). Here you have a former leftback, marginally on the wrong side of 30, whose experience in Italy has equipped with more discipline, better positioning, and his age a better reading of the game. I would never pick the 70s Junior myself TBH, what the Toro one had to offer was more than the Flamengo or Brazil '82 one.
I think those additional attributes are far more important in this role where he has to keep an eye on trouble and preempt it, than his pace would have served him even one-to-one going solo on Garrincha. Not that he had lost it completely, let alone his energy. Junior played up to his 40s, you don't do that if you have lost that edge of energy/passion/drive and precision in his play. He was no Rooney.
Agreed, you can't keep blocking players because you will keep arriving at a next layer which is better than the rest. Personally I would have let ADS and Figueroa play as well.
In any case, it's a completely irrelevant point here as both teams squaring off have the contested players, and SkizzoPat even passed on Garrincha favouring Ronaldo so it's not like they have been hard done by.
Garrincha was pick 2, picks 20,21 and 22 were Jairzinho, Rivelino and Rivaldo (all R2 picks for their bottom of the snake managers). The only imbalance is most leftbacks are dogshit.
Agreed. It's as good a setup as you could have to contain the danger while not completely sacrificing the attacking contribution from your leftback. Pavoni is a good fit, Junior is likely the best option you could have covering on that side of midfield and I can't think of a left-sided CB better suited to the job than Pereyra.
Lest we forget, in the second round in '86 Pereyra was deployed with his wrist in a cast, in a free role in front of the defence doing a Gentile job of sorts against Maradona (in God mode, and primarily working the channels on the left). He did as good a job as anyone mustered that Summer (i.e. as great as Matthäus' but still not enough).
Good point. Uncompetitive was probably unfair because he was very individually competitive. I think this story from Futebol by Alex Bellos illustrates my point:
"His on pitch clowning is perhaps best illustrated by the occasion when, faced with an open goal, he preferred to carry on dribbling. Garrincha passed three players and then beat the goalkeeper. But instead of scoring, he waited for a defender to run back. Garrincha swerved his body and the defender had to grasp the post so as to not fall over...
When Garrincha scored, the stadium was silent apart from the shouts of his teammates. In anger. They were terrified that such irresponsibility in a competitive game would cost them dear."
Now I highly rate Garrincha. I am not yet convinced Pat/Skizzo's tactic would be effective here. But I do think this point is worth bringing up, even if just for the trivia
I'm basically going off his reputation and the strength of his CV as longer footage of that Independiente side of the early to mid 70s was much harder to find than I bargained for, and given the way this is going I couldn't really be bothered sifting through grainy youtube vids and Google-translated articles now. He's seen as an Independiente great, a rugged and occasionally brutal man marker, and one of the leaders of that great Independiente team that racked up so many Copa Libertadores wins. I've read that he was the first foreign-based player to be called up for Uruguay, but I honestly don't know if this was because of his own quality or simply a sign of the times. His attacking qualities are rather easier to substantiate, with his outstanding goal return of 57 goals in 423 games for Independiente, his repuation for barnstorming runs, and video evidence such as this nice goal for Uruguay at WC '74
(from 4:50) but then his attacking contribution is neither here nor there when it comes to the task of dealing with Garrincha.
Indeed, so much so that I once completely forgot about considering him for LB in a Uruguay all-time XI. He was at ease on the left and was often deployed there much like other great right-footers have (Maldini, Brehme, Irwin) in the face of a lack of quality leftbacks there. However, his career-defining performances were at right back.
That game you linked to had Puskas raving about him and only got settled after Andrade got a tear on his thigh and couldn't carry on, giving Czibor complete freedom to wreak havoc and take down Uruguay's unbeaten World Cup record.
Rightly so. Forlan is at his most effective as an overlapping fullback, he worked great with Abbadie for Peñarol (the more RM disciplined Abbadie) and you watch his crosses and know were Diego got that wand from, but he would have really suffered here with Sosa.
Ignore him. My best side was asymmetrical but I was too cautious and started a final with something more traditional, probably cost me the game. Yeah, people have a hard time wrapping their head around those. feck them.
I always prefer asymmetrical formations that show how the team would play in more detail, highlighting the difference in wingers approach, for example.
Voted prematurely as I knew that I would just chicken out if I'll continue to overthink this but now I can't even think of changing my vote! Bummer.
I would prefer him on the left, sure. Not that he was one-footed, but given the choice you typically prefer left-footed wingers on the left (yeah, I know, Pep inverts them, and I don't care). As you mention, Abbadie was no longer the young one flying down the wings but a more disciplined and cerebral RM. The line-hugging defence-stretching width on the right was provided by Forlán or Joya venturing into the opposite flank. It was a counter-attacking side so typically it coiled back and when it sprung into life Spencer-Joya were hanging around central areas and Joya would dart either side of him depending on where the space and the opportunity to receive a pass was.
Mind you, I don't think that's the tactic here and personally I buy his remit as the RW than the notion of him switching flanks. He is needed on the right, Tostao can peel wide or Pavoni come forth, I don't personally see much scope or need for Joya to faff around changing flanks. What I don't dispute is that Joya on the right and Tostao were he is works better than the less controversial but slightly boring Joya left -Bertoni right. I'm sure you'd rather that was the setup, I'd prefer it in your shoes
With regards Joya my understanding was he was right footed so liked playing on the left so he could cut inside and score. That said he seems more of a goalscoring winger than a modern inside forward so I think he'll do well on the right against Branco.
Little excerpt on Zizinho who IMO would have the chance to shine in this game, the greatest Brazilian player before Pelé and Garrincha.
The game against Spain.
He was also voted the man of the match in that final loss.
It's a pity that he'll be remembered for that unfortunate loss in the 1950 final, but his performances before that should be also remembered.
for the game against Sweden.
The game against Spain.
He was also voted the man of the match in that final loss.
And of course Erico who would thrive on the service he would get from Zizinho, Garrincha and Sosa.
He was very capable on either foot and yes, he did cut inside quite a lot and go for the goal, he didn't just limit himself to assisting Spencer.
That's what made them great together, their movement was telepathic and for a defender it was an impossible choice as there was no scope for choosing the lesser evil.
haha, not for Uruguayans of course, but ask the Brazilians what they think about it.Aw poor thing, my heart bleeds
It's very difficult to split. Both teams are well designed and strong in key areas. Splitting hairs time then. I think Erico will be racking up the goals in this tournament, but there's something about Thiago Silva's athleticism that makes me think he would have a (relatively and comparatively) quieter game here. In contrast, I'm not quite as sold on Ruggeri in the defensive mix against Ronaldo, Bochini and Tostao. Joya against Branco and Garrincha against Pavoni are obvious routes to goal while otherwise there's a much of a muchness.
It's not only Ruggeri defending against those three, we have Zito, Veron and Godin into the mix. Godin being the most well rounded CB on the pitch would be our last resort, who has done pretty well against all sorts of forwards, while Vidal and Zito would give Bochini and Tostao problems in the defensive end. Zizinho himself could provide to be a pivotal figure in this game, however barely gets a mention, which is a shame, especially when Junior will be helping out wide and Rattin would be the only actively participating in the defensive end at times.
I read in a multiple sources that his game against Yugoslavia was considered by some as the best performance ever in selesao shirt (not only by him, but by any Brazilian). Like every such claim it should be taken with a pinch of salt (a whole spoon probably), obviously, but it had to be some performance to be remembered this way.
@Enigma_87
@Enigma_87
Yeah I've read about it as well. He was up against Cajkovski in that game and generally an excellent Yugo side so it's not like the opposition was easy.
However there are plenty of superlatives for him for the above two games against Spain and Sweden.
Rightly so. He really stood out in that match from what I've seen so far (haven't watched the end yet), even against a legend like Czibor. Off topic, but I was just reading an article about that WC and after full time in the 'Battle of Berne' between Hungary and Brazil this supposedly happened
Crazy stuff.
I'm not entirely sure whether its the asymetry people have a problem with here or whether it's just that there's a particular premium put on having clear width on both sides at the minute, much like you just couldn't get away with losing the midfield numbers game in these drafts a few years back and hope to win.
Good point. Uncompetitive was probably unfair because he was very individually competitive. I think this story from Futebol by Alex Bellos illustrates my point:
"His on pitch clowning is perhaps best illustrated by the occasion when, faced with an open goal, he preferred to carry on dribbling. Garrincha passed three players and then beat the goalkeeper. But instead of scoring, he waited for a defender to run back. Garrincha swerved his body and the defender had to grasp the post so as to not fall over...
When Garrincha scored, the stadium was silent apart from the shouts of his teammates. In anger. They were terrified that such irresponsibility in a competitive game would cost them dear."
Now I highly rate Garrincha. I am not yet convinced Pat/Skizzo's tactic would be effective here. But I do think this point is worth bringing up, even if just for the trivia
In fairness, that was in the runup to the 1958 World Cup so you can understand how the more experienced players and management reacted given how playing bonito panned out in 1950 against a bonitinho but first and foremost brutally effective rival.
Not sure if it was against Fiorentina, definitely in Florence, and the result was both him and Pelé firmly on the bench. They started badly, Mazzola (aka Altafini) got injured, and with his back against the wall the manager rolled the dice banking on their flair. The rest, as we know, made history.
I get your point though. I've picked him before and had some hipster numpty complaining he wouldn't track back. More relevant, the defence may get some respite and chance to recover from his less than direct style.
Feck that, it's Garrincha, don't expect discipline or be under any illusion that you can dictate detailed instructions. Sit back, enjoy and make sure you get a good RB, and they don't come much better than Zanetti.
I don't see a width issue in either team to be honest. If we break up the park into five channels, in an attacking phase you've got Pavoni hitting outside-left, Tostao inside-left, Ronaldo central (but with fantastic roaming qualities), Joya in both inside-right and outside-right, with Andrade offering some outside-right support when appropriate too. I'm not a fan of wingers and wing-backs hitting the same channel. It's less economical and the majority of elite club managers have moved away from that model in recent years for good reason.
Same here except I think Thiago is better suited to deal with his own striker and agree Ruggeri likewise.
Slight concern is the high crosses for Erico to beat his minders would come mainly from Zanetti and Branco, not Garrincha or Sosa (more cut inside or cutback/low cross widemen). Can't see Branco having much freedom but Zanetti could be the key to unlock it.
Yups, that's why I'm not overly fussed with asymmetry, I'd rather spread the play and work the channels than bang on about 2v1s
I'm not that sold on Silva dealing well with Erico to be honest. Part is because I don't really rate him that high in historical sense(well before this draft) and the other is in the air as well. Neither him or Pereyra are suited to counter Erico in that department and IMO with us having an advantage in midfield both Branco and Zanetti can cross from deep as you noted.
Also it's not only Ruggeri dealing with S/P attack as we're defending zonally in this game. We have Godin who is a brilliant all rounder, Vidal with his dynamic game, Zito who is the best DM on the pitch and historically one of the best in his position as well. It's not like we're depending on Ruggeri to have the game of his life.
Personally I'm not against asymetry and my concern is not that you guys are playing without two pure wingers in this game but more about the current match up where I think we have advantage against this set up.
The left side, although with the help of Junior, Garrincha would still get a lot of joy up against Pavoni, who also has to provide width in attack. While Junior will provide cover, you would still need Junior in the middle. Ronaldo, Joya, Bochini, Tostao won't provide much cover in defence and with Pavoni stretching up play that would leave a lot of room for either Garrincha, Erico, Zizinho or Vidal rushing in.
With 2 of your players in dual roles - Pavoni - manning that whole flank both in attack and defence, but also Junior covering a lot of ground and covering the flank as well as the middle, there is space in the middle that we can utilize, either by our midfield pair - Vidal/Zizinho or Erico.
Even if Garrincha is not that direct at times, he will engage more than one of your defenders/midfielders covering for him. If that's Pereyra and Junior covering for Pavoni that leaves space for us centrally for Zizinho and Erico to exploit. Pavoni himself being occupied with his defensive duties won't be able to provide the needed width on the left, and when Tostao weaves out to provide space he'll come up against Zanetti in a balanced role which counters that threat well.
Where IMO Junior role breaks is Bochini in that set up. If this is to work and you get the cover you need both centrally and on the left side, you need a much more industrious #10 with a high work rate - like a Nedved for example (or Zizinho, Piksi etc.) who can provide you the support in midfield in the defensive stage.
This is also underlined by what onenil said - you have 30 years old Junior here, who - of course not putting his dedication or qualities into question at the time is a tad more slower and can cover a tad less space. Take Vidal this year and Vidal at his peak 3 years ago for example.
IMO the midfield is where we gain edge here, not only the right flank per say, but with the inclusion of Vidal we improved a lot in the defensive stage and also in terms of work rate.
Of course Bochini, Tostao and Ronaldo can work in tight spaces, but we have a midfield that can really restrict the service to them, who are also positionally very smart and could run their socks off during the whole game.
When I first looked at the matchup tactics my first thought was 'no way Enigma/Joga can lose this match'. But then reading the discussions of blocking players, it did occur to me that Garrincha's qualities are not infallible. There is downside as well as a positive side. Its not like having Garrincha in the side instantly made his team unbeatable. The playfulness and individual focus is a double edge sword that has to be wielded with care.
That is one of the key areas where I keep flipping back and forth making arguments with myself when I try to vote. I think Zizinho gives a slight edge in the midfield battle over Bochini due to all around game and combined with Garrincha could decide it. If this was a real match I could also see a possibility of Ronaldo and Tostao deciding the game with Garrincha not making a difference. Just not sure which I think is more likely at the moment. I'll probably just come back to this in a few hours and see how I feel then
While Garrincha comes with some baggage, at his peak he was as decisive figure as Ronaldo IMO. We're after his absolute peak here and if 86 WC was all about Maradona, Garrincha had pretty much the same effect in 62. He could score and decide the game alright and part of his baggage also had some positives.
For example the game against England:
You can see that Garrincha occupying 2,3 even 4 players at a time, even when he is not direct in his faints and movement towards the goal. Now with a little work rate that Bochini, Tostao, Ronaldo and Joya will put in defence, that puts a lot of stress on that midfield, especially when it's up against ours, which is a game decider on it's own with Zizinho being a very potent goalscorer and Vidal capable of also score in this game.
I meant Thiago and Ruggeri would be better off facing their teammate striker.
Godín-Ruggeri would be much better against Erico, while the likes of Thiago are better suited for a Ronaldo. Once it's not that way around I can see Erico having more joy aerially, which is why I moved on to who can provide the crosses.
All eyes are on Garrincha, but I think it will be Zanetti bossing that flank and ultimately being the match-winning difference between both sides.
The bolded part is getting over-egged a bit IMO. Pavoni is playing as a left back, albeit one with a challenging individual assignment coming up against Garrincha. His basic role, however, is hardly different to Branco's, who has similar twin responsibilities of trying to snuff out Joya whilst also trying to be the more attacking of your full backs. Junior helping to cover the full back on his side of the pitch is a basic responsibility for a midfielder in a 3, and he's an ideal fit for it given his positional history.
In any case, as normally happens the whole team will shift towards your right when Garrincha is attacking down that wing, so I don't see huge swathes of space opening up in the centre. Furthermore, it isn't really Garrincha's style to quickly switch the play to the other wing, and in any case I have huge confidence in Andrade's ability to neuter Sosa here. I see Sosa having the quietest match of all the attackers on the pitch, with your attacking play being funnelled mostly down Garrincha's wing, and an unfavourable individual match up for him vs Andrade.
For all Vidal's dynamism and defensive qualities, Veron is a big loss here, with his playmaking abilities and capacity to vary the pace and thrust of your attacks. As it is, your playmaking is rather dependent on Zizinho having a huge game here, and he's up against a suffocating and ruthless DM in Rattin, who IMO can limit him more than Zito can limit Bochini.
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Great analysis. As I've said, our attack is much more orientated towards quick passing exchanges through the middle than traditional wingplay, but we have our bases covered in terms of stretching the pitch too, and Ronaldo's fantastic molbility and ability to start his rampaging runs from anywhere in the attacking half of the pitch can't be overlooked either.
Would be Hormazabal surely if they were going that route.
I personally prefer Ronaldo being partnered by another forward myself than having two conventional wingers on both sides.
Oh and @Chesterlestreet from the initial looks of this trial, for my money both not seeing the results and not changing the vote should be permanently ingrained into the draft, as well as the no substitution rule.
I have slightly mixed feelings about not changing the vote, but I do understand that allowing that would seriously undermine not seeing the results initially. Agreed on the no subs, partly as I'm generally far too stubborn to use subs myself, and moreso because its amounted to a get out of jail free card far too many times before.
Some key points and questions going into the final stretch here:
1) Sosa's Impact: Can Sosa contribute here? IIRC he generally thrived in counter-attacking setups where he was a focal point of the attack. Here he;s up against a formidable opponent in Andrade who should dominate the individual duel, and the opposition attacks will predominantly be funnelled down Garrincha's wing, who won't be in any hurry to bring Sosa into play.
2) Rattin on Zizinho: With Veron benched, Zizinho has to shoulder the majority of the playmaking burden here. Great player though he was, Rattin is one of best specialist DMs in the pool, and he'll mitigate his influence well.
3) Bochini: Is Zito really the sort of suffocating DM who can stifle Bochini and stop him from orchesrating our attacks?
4) Ronaldo/Tostao vs Ruggeri: As others have touched upon, this isn't a good stylistic match up for Ruggeri, great defender though he was.
Tostao's had an underwhelming reception here, so I reminder of what he was all about:
A incredible footballer, and a dream partner for Ronaldo.
1) Sosa's Impact: Can Sosa contribute here? IIRC he generally thrived in counter-attacking setups where he was a focal point of the attack. Here he;s up against a formidable opponent in Andrade who should dominate the individual duel, and the opposition attacks will predominantly be funnelled down Garrincha's wing, who won't be in any hurry to bring Sosa into play.
2) Rattin on Zizinho: With Veron benched, Zizinho has to shoulder the majority of the playmaking burden here. Great player though he was, Rattin is one of best specialist DMs in the pool, and he'll mitigate his influence well.
3) Bochini: Is Zito really the sort of suffocating DM who can stifle Bochini and stop him from orchesrating our attacks?
4) Ronaldo/Tostao vs Ruggeri: As others have touched upon, this isn't a good stylistic match up for Ruggeri, great defender though he was.
Tostao's had an underwhelming reception here, so I reminder of what he was all about:
A incredible footballer, and a dream partner for Ronaldo.
Fair enough. Can definitely see the rationale behind that. Whilst R9 is always a danger, he is up against a more solid side, esp through the middle where the likes of Godin, Ruggeri, Zito and Vidal do make for a really tight and a compact unit, esp against Skizzo/Pat's relatively centrally oriented attack. Whilst Ruggeri isn't the best centre back to deal with Ronaldo, he is part of the better defensive core here and won't be isolated, esp with Godin of all people as the side's defensive leader and the prime centre back.
Do think Ruggeri struggling against all 3 of Pat/Skizzo's attackers is a tad exaggerated though - esp against Bochini & Tostao. He was a fine centre back and whilst he'd find it tough against R9 (as should most), it's not like he'd be found wanting every time he comes up against a tricky attacker. His stopper like qualities do tend to be overplayed at times, whilst his reading of the game, passing ability and other finer aspects always go under the radar. At times, it seems as though he's only fit to play against a battering ram of a forward and his aerial ability is the only thing going for him. Anyway, he has the perfect defensive partner here, with a real solid midfield unit ahead of him, so we are not asking anything of him which he can't provide.
As you yourself stated, it could very well be Zanetti's impact which could decide this match. Pavoni has his work cut out against Garrincha, but he'd definitely be overwhelmed against Garrincha & Zanetti, without the support of another steady presence on his flank*. As it stands the Garrincha-Zanetti flank seems to be the best route to goal in this match and that could prove to be deadly with Erico having the edge over the opposition's CB duo. Likewise Zizinho, Copa America top scorer of all time and a 1 in 2 goalscorer at his prime, who has gone under the radar in this match.
*Definitely but he's up against a better midfield unit and a more industrious one, and an imposing right flank of Garrincha-Zanetti. As good as Junior was, he wasn't a defensive specialist and more of a tactically intelligent player who was good defensively. I could buy Pizarro covering for his LB against Garrincha in our first match as Gio's midfield had the likes of Pedernera and Zizinho which gave him more freedom in a covering dual role. As it stands, none of Ronaldo, Tostao, Bochini, Joya are really going to be tracking back or were hardworking players by any means. To what extent can Junior carry out his dual role when our midfield, and esp Zizinho, already has the edge in the middle? Not to the degree required to nullify Zanetti's influence imo.
Do think Simeone is a bigger miss though. Mostly for the reasons outlined above and he'd definitely have given your side more defensive security, mobility for the dual role and of course physicality in dealing with Vidal. Whilst Junior offers plenty of class, creativity and link-up play etc, they aren't really relatively as important (with the presence of Bochini & Tostao already) as the qualities that Simeone bring to the table here imo.
I'd have to disagree with that. Rattin was an excellent DM but not a top tier DM in the SA pool unlike Zito. He was pretty uncompromising, tough and decent on the ball but he'd find it tough to nullify the multifaceted threat of Zizinho, esp his unpredictable movement, nimble-footedness and trickery which could prove to be too much for Rattin to handle. Whereas I'd definitely back Zito's reading of the game and well rounded defensive game up against Bochini's trickery and playmaking ability. Esp since Zito is in the more dynamic and solid core, with the best ball winning midfielder on the pitch in Vidal and an industrious and tactically astute AM in Zizinho, backed by a better centre back duo.
Great game @Pat_Mustard @Skizzo
Enjoyed the discussions and it was a nice side that you guys put together.
Enjoyed the discussions and it was a nice side that you guys put together.