The Americas Draft, R1: Physio vs Skizzo/Pat 8-8

Considering players at their peak, who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Chesterlestreet

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TEAM PHYSIOCRAT

Tactic:

  • Formation - 4-3-3
  • Defensive line - Normal
  • Defensive style: Normal but during free kicks man-to-man
  • Pressing: half-court
  • Philosophy - Try to control possession but be relatively direct with balls through the middle and also out wide.
Player Name - Player Position - Player Role

Rene Higuita
- Goalkeeper - Sweeper Keeper
Ze Roberto - Left Back - attacking left back who can over lap Canhoteiro or join the midfield when Chumpitaz ventures further up
Hector Chumpitaz - Covering CB - Ball playing CB who will also cover towards LCB when Ze Roberto goes forward
Guillermo Delgado - Complete CB - Defense
Pablo Zabaleta - Right Back - Defensive Right Back
Diego Simeone - Defensive Midfielder - Screen the defence and put his foot in whilst using his solid passing range to make quick transitions.
Carlos Valderrama - Midfield Playmaker - Spray it around and slot in the front three and Cubillas
Teofilo Cubillas - Creative Goalscoring Midfielder - Slot in the front three and get forward to score goals
Canhoteiro- Left Winger - Terrorise the full-back, put crosses in both high and low, cut in and shoot on occasions.
Julinho - Right Winger - Terrorise the full-back, put crosses in both high and low, cut in and shoot on occasions.
Luis Artime - Center Forward - Goal Poacher

Free Kick Taker: Teofilo Cubillas

Player Profiles

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TEAM SKIZZO/PAT

Formation and Tactical Overview:


A fairly orthodox 4-3-3 with a moderate defensive line. No particular bells and whistles tactically – the full backs will be relatively conservative, Pavoni moreso than Forlan, but they can both support the attack. Rattin anchors the midfield, Junior is the all-around CM and Bochini our playmaker. The front three is fluid- Joya will provide the width but has freedom to swap wings and test the other full-back as he so wishes. Ronaldo can do precisely what he wants, whether that’s playing on the shoulder and feasting on Bochini’s through-passes, or dropping deep and running at the opposition defence.

Goalkeeper – Claudio Taffarel: A World Cup winner for Brazil who has a strong argument for being their best GK ever. A superb shot stopper, and his missile-like long throws will be a useful weapon to kick-start our counterattacks.

Right Back - Pablo Forlan: Father of Diego, Forlan Sr. amassed an impressive medal collection over the course of his career, particularly during his peak at Penarol. Tall, fast and an energetic overlapper, he was an athletic full back with excellent crossing abilities.

Left Back – Ricardo Pavoni: Possessor of possibly the best moustache in the draft, Pavoni is also one of the best defensive left backs in the pool. A dogged, uncompromising defender, he also has an excellent goal return for a defender.

Centre Back - Carlos Mozer: Aggressive and occasionally brutal, with one of the best leaps I’ve ever seen from a defender. A staple inclusion in all-time Marseille XIs, he was also one of three CBs ahead of Aldair and Marcio Santos in the pecking order for Brazil at WC ’94, all of whom were struck down by injury.

Centre Back - Dario Pereyra: Sao Paulo legend, and widely considered the third best Uruguayan CB ever after Santamaria and Nasazzi, although Diego Godin would now vie for that title too. Tele Santana wanted him to take out Brazilian citizenship and play for the great Brazil 1982 team, and even more notably he made the dear departed Antohan’s all-time Uruguay XI.

Defensive Midfield- Antonio Rattin: Abrasive and ultra-competitive, Rattin will anchor our midfield and is, for our money, one of the best men in the pool for that job.

Central Midfield – Leo Junior: This consummate all-around footballer will reprise the midfield role he performed brilliantly for Torino. The highest-ranked player in Serie A in 1984-85 (ahead of peak Maradona) he’ll stamp his authority in both the defensive and offensive phases.

Attacking Midfield – Ricardo Bochini: One of the greatest passers in history and one of the great one-club men, he’s been given a strong platform here and license to orchestrate our game.

Right Forward - Daniel Bertoni: A World Cup winner with Argentina,Bertoni was a livewire of a wide attacker and a proven goalscorer even in the miserly environment of 80s Serie A. Moreover, he had a famously great chemistry with Bochini for Independiente that we’re delighted to reprise here. His defensive workrate will help balance our team, and in possession he’s free to thrust for goal and take up CF positions as per his natural game.

Left Winger - Juan Joya: One of the best pure wingers in the draft, he’ll generally play from the left but if he sniffs out weakness in the other full back he’s free to rove over there too.

Centre Forward: Luis Ronaldo: No introductions necessary. The best No. 9 in the draft, in a set up geared towards getting the best from him.

Why We’ll Win:

Bochini and Ronaldo is simply a dream ticket in this draft as a playmaker/striker combination, and it’ll be too hot for the opposition to handle here, particularly with the stellar supporting cast. Bochini is well-set to showcase his virtuoso playmaking skills here, with the best centre forward in the draft ahead of him, Joya offering pace and width in wide areas, and not least his old partner in crime Bertoni to link up with too (video to follow).While Cubillas would no doubt enjoy playing alongside Valderrama, we do question whether Artime is the centre forward to bring the best out of him – our impression of Artime is that he’s that he’s fundamentally a poacher, and not necessarily the facilitator with strong link-up play that would set the stage for Cubillas to be at his best.

We fancy we’ll enjoy a competitive advantage in midfield too, with Rattin likely to be the most defensively robust midfielder on show, and Junior considerably more effective out of possession than either Cubillas or Valderrama.
 
I like Physio's side better from the first glance, but Bochini - Ronaldo is a pairing that can decide any game in this draft on their own.

Ze Roberto vs Bertoni looks dangerous too, although it's Chumpitaz who is covering for him
 
@Pat_Mustard

First things, you have a very well constructed team. That said depending on your playing style, I don't see much quality on the ball from your two CBs to help launch counters, nor from Tafferal. Rattin and Junior are perfectly competent but it will limit your transition speed.

I'm also dubious of how well your full-backs will cope with two full on wingers (one the Garrincha of the Left and the other the being the second best Brazilian right winger of all-time) provided for by Cubillas and Valderrama.

For all my research on Artime, have click on the links to the player profiles, he seems to be a number 9 version of Thomas Muller. In that he doesn't seem that special at anything but pops up to score out of the blue. So he's not van Basten for link-up but he isn't Emile Heskey. Also with the more direct approach it suits his skill set- a torrent of crosses and through balls to smash in the top corner - I can see Cubillas loving playing him in on multiple occasions or hitting a long-ranger from a knock down. Just to note Artime's goalscoring record is brilliant -

At Nacional scored 61 goals in 56 games between '69-'71

Argentina 24 in 25 games

236 goals in 302 career appearances

Ronaldo is undoubtedly brilliant however in Chumpitaz and Delgado I have two of the top three Peruvian defenders of all-time who are both quick, strong and intelligent so will be the best type of defenders to cope with Ronaldo. Also Simeone will be screening the back 4, also aided by Ze Roberto on occasions can cut off his supply.
 
I like Physio's side better from the first glance, but Bochini - Ronaldo is a pairing that can decide any game in this draft on their own.

Ze Roberto vs Bertoni looks dangerous too, although it's Chumpitaz who is covering for him

Chumpitaz is a deliberate choice to cover outwide with his intelligence and athleticism. Also as per the graphic Bertoni is more likely to cut inside so will hardly be pulling Chumpitaz into the full left-back position.
 
Chumpitaz is a deliberate choice to cover outwide with his intelligence and athleticism. Also as per the graphic Bertoni is more likely to cut inside so will hardly be pulling Chumpitaz into the full left-back position.
I'm not criticizing him - on the contrary, I think that Chumpitaz is one of the best choices to cover for Ze Roberto (whose defensive game is a little questionable as an LB in a back 4)
 
I'm not criticizing him - on the contrary, I think that Chumpitaz is one of the best choices to cover for Ze Roberto (whose defensive game is a little questionable as an LB in a back 4)

I didn't mean for it to come across like that. I was actually agreeing with you :)
 
Chumpitaz is a deliberate choice to cover outwide with his intelligence and athleticism. Also as per the graphic Bertoni is more likely to cut inside so will hardly be pulling Chumpitaz into the full left-back position.
Works well. Chumpitaz is probably the best player in the pool to be tasked with dealing with Ronaldo.
 
I like Physio's side better from the first glance, but Bochini - Ronaldo is a pairing that can decide any game in this draft on their own.

Ze Roberto vs Bertoni looks dangerous too, although it's Chumpitaz who is covering for him
Share those feelings.

At first sight S/P midfield is exciting, but then I see Simeone/Valderrama and Cubillas

Joya, Ronaldo and Bertoni IMO is the better forward line, but Physio has the better defence. Tough one.
 
Not really sure about both of the defences here, esp Forlan and Delgado.

I'd have played Simieone-Valderrama and moved Cubillas a standard #10 in a standard 4-2-3-1. Not really sure about the 4-3-3. Valderrama played deep anyways and would be fine there. Will cosndier after hearing more opinions.

For Skizzo/PaT, apart from Fenomeno, love the Junior/Joya link which would be deveastating. I think they'd definitely have the upper hand against Zabaleta/Delgado and should be a good route to goal.

I hate voting for that duo :mad:
 
Share those feelings.

At first sight S/P midfield is exciting, but then I see Simeone/Valderrama and Cubillas

Joya, Ronaldo and Bertoni IMO is the better forward line, but Physio has the better defence. Tough one.

I think you're underating Julinho especially. This is hardly definitive in any way but xrtammortal have him as the 10th best winger of all-time and Big Soccer the 7th best right-winger of all time. He played for Brazil in the '54 World Cup and if not for Garrincha would have been in '58- plus they'd be much more footage of him. That said some of the clips linked above show great dribbling and a powerful shot. Similarly Canhoteiro could we;; have played in 58' if hadn't been so terrified of flying.

I know it's Pele but when asked about players he admired as a child he said Zizinho and Canhoteiro. In addition Bela Guttman left both Zizinho and Canhoteiro out of technical talks since he had nothing he could teach them. Both Julinho and Canhoteiro will cause Pavoni and Forlan no end of problems.
 
Not really sure about both of the defences here, esp Forlan and Delgado.

I'd have played Simieone-Valderrama and moved Cubillas a standard #10 in a standard 4-2-3-1. Not really sure about the 4-3-3. Valderrama played deep anyways and would be fine there. Will cosndier after hearing more opinions.

For Skizzo/PaT, apart from Fenomeno, love the Junior/Joya link which would be deveastating. I think they'd definitely have the upper hand against Zabaleta/Delgado and should be a good route to goal.

I hate voting for that duo :mad:

The reason for the 433 is to give the wingers more freedom and less reason to track back. Plus Cubillas is adept from a deeper position and it also allows Simeone to be closer to the back 4 especially when Ze Roberto moves out.

Now Joya is certainly a quality player but Zabaleta is a defensively quality player and has been the best PL right-back for many, many years. Also Joya, being right footed, did enjoy cutting in a lot so isn't going to stretch him out wide as much thus retaining a reasonably compact defence.

In regards Delgado he is regarded as one of the best three Peruvian players of all-time. From my research he seems the complete package- strong, quick and decent on the ball. I have a small profile of him linked above, I reckon you should check it out.
 
I think you're underating Julinho especially. This is hardly definitive in any way but xrtammortal have him as the 10th best winger of all-time and Big Soccer the 7th best right-winger of all time. He played for Brazil in the '54 World Cup and if not for Garrincha would have been in '58- plus they'd be much more footage of him. That said some of the clips linked above show great dribbling and a powerful shot. Similarly Canhoteiro could we;; have played in 58' if hadn't been so terrified of flying.

I know it's Pele but when asked about players he admired as a child he said Zizinho and Canhoteiro. In addition Bela Guttman left both Zizinho and Canhoteiro out of technical talks since he had nothing he could teach them. Both Julinho and Canhoteiro will cause Pavoni and Forlan no end of problems.

Nah mate, I'd take Julinho over Bertoni but then hard to look past Joya and Ronaldo even tho Artime is one of the past greats with an impressive goal scoring record as well.

Your defence on the flip side is better suited to handle S/P attacking line even though Zabaleta is not one of the best RB's in the pool is a good fit for Joya - not to take him out of the game, but as a type of defender who at least give him a good challenge.

I like Simeone on Bochini as well. Aesthetically it could be 4-2-3-1 with Simeone holding, Valderrama in a deeper CM position and Cubillas as #10, but really from the explanation and the "goalscoring" midfielder type there isn't much in it if it is 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.

To me @Physiocrat has build an excellent side and that midfield is a real joy, but Joya/Ronaldo and Bochini on the other side make it a difficult choice.
 
Nah mate, I'd take Julinho over Bertoni but then hard to look past Joya and Ronaldo even tho Artime is one of the past greats with an impressive goal scoring record as well.

Your defence on the flip side is better suited to handle S/P attacking line even though Zabaleta is not one of the best RB's in the pool is a good fit for Joya - not to take him out of the game, but as a type of defender who at least give him a good challenge.

I like Simeone on Bochini as well. Aesthetically it could be 4-2-3-1 with Simeone holding, Valderrama in a deeper CM position and Cubillas as #10, but really from the explanation and the "goalscoring" midfielder type there isn't much in it if it is 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.

To me @Physiocrat has build an excellent side and that midfield is a real joy, but Joya/Ronaldo and Bochini on the other side make it a difficult choice.

Considered comments. Thanks for that.

The reason for the 433 is so the wingers have more freedom than in a typical 4231. Anyway one more Julinho bit of info for lurkers is that he was voted Fiorentina's greatest player in 1996. I reckon since then Batigol could well eclipse him but it shows how well regarded he is
 
Not sure why people talk about 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when it's basically the same formation here, with an arrows on Cubillas he'll move forward (naturally), to the 10ish position with Valderrama forming a duo with Simeone deeper.
 
I can't really decide between both teams. Both teams have their strengths and weaknesses that essentially make them quite even. I don't have the time today to really analyse both teams, so I'll decide on the arguments that I see on this thread.
 
Not sure why people talk about 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when it's basically the same formation here, with an arrows on Cubillas he'll move forward (naturally), to the 10ish position with Valderrama forming a duo with Simeone deeper.
I think Edgar mentioned it first hence I made the reply.
Considered comments. Thanks for that.

The reason for the 433 is so the wingers have more freedom than in a typical 4231. Anyway one more Julinho bit of info for lurkers is that he was voted Fiorentina's greatest player in 1996. I reckon since then Batigol could well eclipse him but it shows how well regarded he is
Julinho is rated pretty high on any history chart, however with the lack of video evidence is a bit of a hard sell. Quality player of what I know about him mind.
 
I think Edgar mentioned it first hence I made the reply.

Julinho is rated pretty high on any history chart, however with the lack of video evidence is a bit of a hard sell. Quality player of what I know about him mind.

There is footage of him. Not much but take a watch. You have to skip through some talking but there's some decent footage. Actual footage at 1:08, 2:19, 2:59.

 
The way I see it is the keepers are pretty even but I have the better defence, midfield and will create more chances than Skizz/Pat. You could argue between both sets of wingers. The only major upper hand he has is Ronaldo and I have the best defender in the draft to cope with him - Hector Chumpitaz.
 
I think the three behind Ronaldo will create a decent amount if chances for him, enough for a couple of goals. Chumpitaz is a class defender to have up against him, but if he is spending a lot of time thinking about moving to the left I think he becomes distracted and gives Ronaldo an even greater edge.

Cubillas et al will probably get a hold of the midfield area, and the Brazilians are an excellent pairing as wingers, up against from what I can see not so great full backs, so naturally there are a lot of chances going to be created at that end too.

Ultimately I am trusting that Ronaldo would prove the difference in a game with a lot of good attacking situations.
 
This is a really tricky one. Skizzo-Pat couldn't have hoped for a worse opponent in terms of facing that CB pair. Chumpitaz-Delgado for my money is the best remaining CB pair in the draft and more importantly a brilliant match for Ronaldo's qualities. Still, would it be enough against Fenomeno with that service?
 
I think the three behind Ronaldo will create a decent amount if chances for him, enough for a couple of goals. Chumpitaz is a class defender to have up against him, but if he is spending a lot of time thinking about moving to the left I think he becomes distracted and gives Ronaldo an even greater edge.

Cubillas et al will probably get a hold of the midfield area, and the Brazilians are an excellent pairing as wingers, up against from what I can see not so great full backs, so naturally there are a lot of chances going to be created at that end too.

Ultimately I am trusting that Ronaldo would prove the difference in a game with a lot of good attacking situations.

Thanks for the thoughts.

What I will say however is that Bertoni will cut in so won't drag Chumpitaz that wide. Also that'll only happen on the counter but given his CBs lack of passing ability I don't see him transitioning very quickly so Ze Roberto can fill back into LB. Also don't forget Delgado who from all accounts has the attributes to dampen Ronaldo too
 
This is a really tricky one. Skizzo-Pat couldn't have hoped for a worse opponent in terms of facing that CB pair. Chumpitaz-Delgado for my money is the best remaining CB pair in the draft and more importantly a brilliant match for Ronaldo's qualities. Still, would it be enough against Fenomeno with that service?

With me fully in the defensive shape there will be little space for Bochini with Simeone buzzing about with Valderrama using his intelligence to limit the space. His best bet is on the counter but his CBs lack the distribution to shift it quickly.

I'm not saying he won't score at all but his full-backs against my wing pair with the incredible movement of Artime with both Valderrama and Cuballis supplying will score more
 
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

Leo Junior: Torino. The highest-ranked player in Serie A in 1984-85 (ahead of peak Maradona) he’ll stamp his authority in both the defensive and offensive phases.

What is your source for this?

Guerin Sportivo from Italy has Platini (Juventus) as world player of the year for that season with Maradona second and Rummenigge (Inter) was 4th. France Football gave the Ballon to Platini that year and also has Laudrup (Juventus) and Rummenigge top 5 as well but no Junior. Also the Gran Galà del Calcio was established in 1997 by the Italian Footballers association.

Here is the voting for the Guerin Sportivo player of the year from 1985 and even all the Brazilian journalists have Platini:

9X9LNCq.jpg

I think its possible that Wikipedia entry was entered incorrectly (intentionally or unintentionally). In 85-86 Renato Zaccharelli from Torino won the award:

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/italpoy.html

Hmm that list actually appears different than some of the scans of the actual magazine. I had to email the author to hopefully confirm.
 
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Both teams look quite similar in their profile, but Chumpitaz-Delgado is a solid defensive partnership. Still, they're facing Ronaldo of all players being supplied by the likes of Bochini, Canhoteiro, and Julinho. Canhoteiro will cause Forlan tons of problems, and that's the most obvious route to goal for Physio. However, SkizzoPat have a very good double pivot in Rattin-Junior, and with Bochini being Ronaldo, they are quite likely to get a goal.

It's really tight for me. I'm honestly not sure which way this can go.
 
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard



What is your source for this?

Guerin Sportivo from Italy has Platini (Juventus) as world player of the year for that season with Maradona second and Rummenigge (Inter) was 4th. France Football gave the Ballon to Platini that year and also has Laudrup (Juventus) and Rummenigge top 5 as well but no Junior. Also the Gran Galà del Calcio was established in 1997 by the Italian Footballers association.

Here is the voting for the Guerin Sportivo player of the year from 1985 and even all the Brazilian journalists have Platini:

9X9LNCq.jpg

I think its possible that Wikipedia entry was entered incorrectly (intentionally or unintentionally). In 85-86 Renato Zaccharelli from Torino won the award:

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/italpoy.html

Hmm that list actually appears different than some of the scans of the actual magazine. I had to email the author to hopefully confirm.

FIFA also quotes this

Everything turned out according to plan. Over the course of his five-year sojourn in Italy, where he was known as Leo Junior, the Brazilian maestro won the admiration of fans and media alike, and was even voted Serie A player of the year for the 1984-85 campaign


I remember watching La Gazzetta dello sport's reviews of those seasons and I'm pretty sure that they talked about him winning the best player award.

He wasn't the highest rated though (and with Serie A it's always about LGDS ratings). And Platini won Ballon D'Or (with Junior being ineligible anyway) because he also shone on the European stage

One has to admire your dedication though!
 
FIFA also quotes this

Everything turned out according to plan. Over the course of his five-year sojourn in Italy, where he was known as Leo Junior, the Brazilian maestro won the admiration of fans and media alike, and was even voted Serie A player of the year for the 1984-85 campaign


I remember watching La Gazzetta dello sport's reviews of those seasons and I'm pretty sure that they talked about him winning the best player award.

He wasn't the highest rated though (and with Serie A it's always about LGDS ratings). And Platini won Ballon D'Or (with Junior being ineligible anyway) because he also shone on the European stage

One has to admire your dedication though!

Gazzetta is definitely possible as I was never able to find any documentation of their past awards. I just mentioned the France Football lists because they have many of the same Serie A players that appear in Guerin's world football ratings. I realize the FIFA source must come from somewhere but I can't find any actual documentation of primary source of that award unlike every other player award I looked up. I just find it odd that this award is quoted in articles but its so hard to find any confirmation from that era when most awards are documented by RSSSF and scans can be found online.

and what is LGDS?
 
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Sorry guys, been otherwise occupied so far but I'll try to get caught up with things now.

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard



What is your source for this?

Guerin Sportivo from Italy has Platini (Juventus) as world player of the year for that season with Maradona second and Rummenigge (Inter) was 4th. France Football gave the Ballon to Platini that year and also has Laudrup (Juventus) and Rummenigge top 5 as well but no Junior. Also the Gran Galà del Calcio was established in 1997 by the Italian Footballers association.

Here is the voting for the Guerin Sportivo player of the year from 1985 and even all the Brazilian journalists have Platini:

9X9LNCq.jpg

I think its possible that Wikipedia entry was entered incorrectly (intentionally or unintentionally). In 85-86 Renato Zaccharelli from Torino won the award:

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/italpoy.html

Hmm that list actually appears different than some of the scans of the actual magazine. I had to email the author to hopefully confirm.

I'm going off DBSCalcio rankings. I believe they calculate their average player ratings by averaging the weekly ratings of Gazzetta dello Sport, Tuttosport and Corriere dello Sport. Junior achieved a 7.08 rating in 1984/85, compared to Maradona's 7.03 that season. The spread is very narrow from what I can tell - below 6 suggests a poor season, anything from 6.5 upwards seems to be exceptional, and in the 10ish seasons I saw full listings for only 6 players achieved 7+, including Junior, Maradona and Ruud Krol, so he seems to be in fairly rarefied company in terms of his performance level in peak Serie A in this midfield role.FWIW, Simeone's best averages for Lazio were 6.42 and 6.35, with Junior achieving 6.5+ in 4 out of his 5 seasons in Italy.
 
I'm going off DBSCalcio rankings. I believe they calculate their average player ratings by averaging the weekly ratings of Gazzetta dello Sport, Tuttosport and Corriere dello Sport. Junior achieved a 7.08 rating in 1984/85, compared to Maradona's 7.03 that season. The spread is very narrow from what I can tell - below 6 suggests a poor season, anything from 6.5 upwards seems to be exceptional, and in the 10ish seasons I saw full listings for only 6 players achieved 7+, including Junior, Maradona and Ruud Krol, so he seems to be in fairly rarefied company in terms of his performance level in peak Serie A in this midfield role.FWIW, Simeone's best averages for Lazio were 6.42 and 6.35, with Junior achieving 6.5+ in 4 out of his 5 seasons in Italy.

Thanks! I have not heard of that site before but its a great database. Much more comprehensive than I realized.

Apparently the ratings are actually an average of a lot of different journalists' ratings from that season:

ITALY: Gazzetta dello Sport, Corriere dello Sport, Tuttosport, Guerin Sportivo
ENGLAND: The Independent, Skysports.com, Daily Express
GERMANY: Kicker
SPAIN: Mundo Deportivo, Marca
FRANCE: The Team
AUSTRIA: Comunio.at, Imnetz Magazin
BELGIUM: Newspaper
CZECH REPUBLIC: DNES Praga
DENMARK: BT
NORWAY: Altomfotball.no
NETHERLANDS: Proteammanager.nl, Whoscored
POLAND: Sport.pl
PORTUGAL: Ebola
ROMANIA: Sports Gazette
RUSSIA: Football.sport-express.ru
SCOTLAND: Scottish Daily Mail
SWITZERLAND: Sport.ch
TURKEY: Haberturk Sport
UKRAINE: Football.ua
BRAZIL: Scoreboard
ARGENTINA: Clarin
CHILE: Third

http://www.dbscalcio.it/info.php
 
I believe they calculate their average player ratings by averaging the weekly ratings of Gazzetta dello Sport, Tuttosport and Corriere dello Sport.

Aye - or something like that. It's not 100% clear to me what they base their ratings on, actually. Guerin Sportivo is listed as a source for Serie A ratings as well as the ones you mention. Which seems odd if we're looking at Junior's case: As far as I know, the Guerin ratings back then were - simply - the combined Gazzetta-Tutto-Corriere ratings divided by three, so listing it as a separate source makes no sense if we're talking about that period specifically.

At any rate, Junior had some excellent seasons for Torino - of that there is no doubt.

ETA onenil just pointed out to me that the Guerin ratings may have been slightly more complicated: They did a rating of their own which was then added to the G-T-C ratings to create an average.

So, if what the site states is literally the case, the actual sources of their Serie A ratings for the relevant period would be:

Gazzetta
Tutto
Corriere
...and Guerin (whose actual ratings are a combination of their own evaluation and an average of G-T-C evaluations).
 
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The two teams are deploying very similar setups and styles here, and the similarities would have been uncanny if we'd played Junior at left back, as we'd both have been sporting an unconventional left back in addition to the otherwise orthodox back fours, three man midfields, and 2 wingers flanking a centre forward. Physio has the standout centre back in Chumpitaz, but I feel we've got a more robust setup elsewhere as well as having the more dangerous and complementary attack.

The way I see it is the keepers are pretty even

Placing Higuita at Taffarel's level is a stretch. It would have been a shame for such an entertainer not to feature in this draft but he was never close to the top tier of GKs in the world, whereas Taffarel was awarded third place in both 1991 and 1994 in the IFFHS's World's Best Goalkeeper rankings. Taffarel was much closer to the top of the heap, still behind the true giants of the era like Schmeichel of course.

Elsewhere, we have the most defensively robust left back on the pitch in Pavoni, but the big difference in defensive solidity is in midfield. Rattin is a specialist holding midfielder and a masterful one at that, whereas Simeone was more of a roving midfielder - a fine ball winner, but not necessarily someone you'd envisage sitting in front of his defence for most of the game. Almeyda was the DM for that excellent Lazio team Simeone featured in, with Simeone mostly deployed elsewhere. Junior is clearly several levels above Cubillas and Valderrama in terms of off the ball utility, with their output more comparable to that of Bochini. Bertoni seems, by some distance, the most likely of all the forwards on the pitch to make a substantial controbution to ball recovery.

With similar formations and playing styles, our stronger set up and superior ball recovery will be a crucial difference.
 
Tomorrow, I will have a tough decision to take here
 
Rattin is a specialist holding midfielder and a masterful one at that, whereas Simeone was more of a roving midfielder - a fine ball winner, but not necessarily someone you'd envisage sitting in front of his defence for most of the game. Almeyda was the DM for that excellent Lazio team Simeone featured in, with Simeone mostly deployed elsewhere.

Yes - and something similar was true at both A. Madrid and Inter. He was defensively excellent, but not actually a holder: He moved about, covered lots of ground, hounded and intercepted, etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Simeone/Valderrama combo, though - it makes sense as such. But, yeah - more specifically, one may get the impression that S. is supposed to sit (as a holder or screen) here to a degree which doesn't seem 100% in line with how he usually played in his prime.
 
With me fully in the defensive shape there will be little space for Bochini with Simeone buzzing about with Valderrama using his intelligence to limit the space. His best bet is on the counter but his CBs lack the distribution to shift it quickly.

I'm not saying he won't score at all but his full-backs against my wing pair with the incredible movement of Artime with both Valderrama and Cuballis supplying will score more

This has been brought up a few times and its completely wide of the mark TBH. Mozer was a superb footballer, certainly the ball-player in the excellent Mozer/Basile Boli duo for Marseille, and regarded as a sweeper here. Chris Waddle includes him in his best XI of former teammates, saying this about him:

Carlos Mozer
A sweeper-cum-centre-half who I played with for three years at Marseille. Exactly as you'd expect from a Brazilian, he was technically out of this world, but if you wanted a fight, he'd fight you. He could lose his head at times, but I've never seen anyone as good in the air. He could have played in any position. A must.

He's technically excellent and not only competent on the ball:

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but capable of absolute brilliance:

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Another goal from early in his career:

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I hope your players mistake him for a plodder as you've suggested and allow him time on the ball, as it'll make our transitions all the more effective.

As a side note, I mentioned in the OP that he had a freakishly great leap, and Waddle also alluded to his supremacy in the air:

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He's a superb fit defensively in terms of beating Artime to headers as well as a very competent ball player.

Pereyra was a midfielder in his early career, playing in that role for Sao Paulo in this Brazilian championship decider in 1977:



The video is too long for me to avoid botching my attempted GIF-making, but his competence on the ball is there for anyone who fancies sifting through that fairly drab match.
 
Yes - and something similar was true at both A. Madrid and Inter. He was defensively excellent, but not actually a holder: He moved about, covered lots of ground, hounded and intercepted, etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Simeone/Valderrama combo, though - it makes sense as such. But, yeah - more specifically, one may get the impression that S. is supposed to sit (as a holder or screen) here to a degree which doesn't seem 100% in line with how he usually played in his prime.

Aye, Simeone/Valderrama/Cubillas is a good midfield that will be excellent on the ball, but they'll struggle badly when we have possession. Simeone is the only effective ball winner he has, and with him in a rather unnatural screening role there's an excessive burden on Valderrama and Cubillas for ball recovery that they'll not be able to live up to. With two similar formations on the pitch and a wealth of attacking talent, ball recovery and the ability to regain a solid defensive shape will be vital. Rattin/Junior/Bochini clearly trumps Simeone/Valderrama/Cubillas in this regard, and that should be a decisive advantage.
 
A great article on Bochini from Jonathan Wilson. I've bolded the part on his incredible partnership with Bertoni

With five minutes of the 1986 World Cup semi-final remaining and Argentina leading Belgium 2-0, Ricardo Bochini came on for Jorge Burruchaga. He was 32, and had been omitted from the squads in both 1978 and 1982. This time, though, Diego Maradona had demanded that he be picked. Those five minutes plus stoppage time would be the only World Cup football Bochini ever played. As he trotted on, Maradona ran over and shook his hand. "Maestro," he said, "we've been waiting for you."

On Saturday Bochini, Maradona's idol and still the great hero of Independiente, turns 60. He is, frankly, the most unlikely of heroes, described by the columnist Hugo Asch as "a midget, ungainly, imperturbable, without a powerful shot, nor header, nor charisma". Yet it was just that sense of improbability that marked him out for popularity: in his overt ordinariness he embodied the imaginative genius of Argentinian football, the kid from the streets who made good not by any advantage of upbringing or physique but through his untutored technical ability.

It is this, the anthropologist Eduardo Archetti has claimed, that is characteristic of the Argentinian game, which was set up, for various economic, cultural and historical reasons, in opposition to the British game; where the British game was learned – taught in the schools, and reliant on the physicality that came from good diet – the Argentinian game was wild, spontaneous, based in streetwiseness and learned in the potreros, the increasingly rare vacant lots on the back streets of Buenos Aires.

Bochini doesn't like interviews. I'd tried and failed to meet him before, but last time I was in Buenos Aires, researching a book on the history of Argentinian football that should come out later this year, he finally agreed to meet, telling me to wait for him at a particular street corner in Palermo at 9.30pm. By 9.50 he hadn't showed. I called him but there was no answer. I was on the verge of giving up – and I was flying back to London the following day – when, just before 10, he rang and gave me an address a couple of blocks away. Two minutes later he was answering the door.

Although he lives in one of Buenos Aires' wealthier neighbourhoods, Bochini has a strangely ordinary flat for one so feted. The front door opened on to a sparsely decorated main room: at one end a small sofa and two chairs clustered around a television that was showing a Copa Sudamericana match, while at the other was a dining table on which lay some half-done schoolwork.

Bochini sat awkwardly on the sofa, dwarfed by the large padded coat he kept on throughout the interview. In his right hand he cradled his car keys, as though at any time he might decide enough was enough and make a break for it. He spoke throughout in a dry monotone: he wasn't impatient, exactly, nor was he impolite, and he clearly gave his answers significant thought, but equally his relief was obvious when we'd finished. He was, I think, just extremely shy, his discomfort hard to believe in somebody who had been so wonderfully instinctive as a player.

Bochini was born in Zárate, around 60 miles north of Buenos Aires, which meant that when Independiente took him on he had to make a journey of five hours, using three buses and a train, just to get to training. He had been a San Lorenzo fan as a child, and had dreamed of playing like José Sanfilippo, their combustible and prolific centre-forward, but his lack of pace and height soon made him revise his plans. "I played some games as a No9," he said, "but my body was better for a No10, because the centre-forward was usually bigger, taller and stronger."

Fans who had seen him in the youth team and the reserves demanded that Bochini be selected for the first team and, by the end of 1973, he had begun to establish himself in Humberto Maschio's side, helping them defend the Libertadores title they had won the previous season. Then, in Rome for the Intercontinental Cup final against Juventus – played that season over one leg only – came the consecration. Independiente had been under pressure for most of the game and Juve had missed a penalty, but with 10 minutes remaining Daniel Bertoni broke from halfway and nudged a pass to Bochini, who received it on the half-turn, skipping by Claudio Gentile, before advancing and playing a one-two with Bertoni, then scooping the ball over Dino Zoff. It wasn't just the winner and a goal that sealed his place in Independiente legend, but it encapsulated the astonishing partnership he had with Bertoni, a powerful, quick winger who was always looking to cut in from the flank.


"With Bertoni we understood each other from the very first time we played together, and we didn't have to speak about it," Bochini said. "It was just natural; it really felt as though we had been playing together for our whole lives, based on our personal attributes: I was quick and skilful, he was powerful and good for one-twos, what we call la pared [wall pass] in Argentina. He could play in different positions but I always wanted him to be close, because we understood each other so well with those short passes."


Bochini became a master of that most revered moment in Argentinian football, la pausa, the moment when a No10, poised to deliver a pass, delays a fraction, waiting for the player he is looking to feed to reach the ideal position (it's a skill at which Juan Román Riquelme excels but the most famous example, gallingly for Argentinians, is probably by a Brazilian, Pelé waiting for Carlos Alberto's overlap before laying the ball off for him to score Brazil's fourth in the 1970 World Cup final).

His explanation of the skill suggests an extraordinary football intelligence, the ability to visualise and predict the behaviour of others that recalls the evolutionary biologist Stephen J Gould's assertion that most top sportsmen have a capacity to make rapid calculations that would see them hailed as geniuses in almost any other field.

"The way I see it," Bochini said, "there are two types of pausa, or two ways of doing la pausa: with the ball going slowly or with the ball travelling fast. Sometimes you have to go fast, carrying the ball with you, to wait for another player to come into position. It happened for example in a game against Olimpia de Paraguay [in the Libertadores group stage in 1984], [Alejandro] Barberón gave me the ball and started running, and I had to go fast with the ball but I was also waiting for him. If I had stayed in my position, without moving, it wouldn't have been possible to assist him properly, so I had to run, with the ball, but knowing that I was waiting for him to come into the best position to give him the ball back. I did, he crossed it and we scored.

"And another time, against Grêmio in Porto Alegre, I had the ball at my feet but I had to wait, because they were sitting back very well and there was nearly no space, so I had to hold the ball against a marker, knowing that I had to wait for Burruchaga, who had already started running to break the lines. We were close to the box, so there wasn't much space and it had to be a very sharp pass. I waited, and then I gave him the pass, and we scored.

"This is the typical explanation of la pausa, waiting for a team-mate by holding the ball. The first one, the pause in speed, is a total revelation, nobody knows about it [he emitted a brief and slightly unnerving chuckle] and nobody has done it. If I had stayed in midfield, he would have been 30m away and even if he'd managed to get the ball, nobody would have been in the box to get on the end of his cross and score, so I had to run fast, but waiting at the same time, because we were in midfield and therefore with plenty of space but plenty of metres to cover."

Bochini believes the capacity to understand movement in such a clinical way is innate. "None of this is something that you can teach," he said. "I believe it comes in the moment, it depends on the inspiration of your players. You have to know how to make la pausa, and another has to know that while the team-mate is making la pausa, he's also watching who's going to make the proper movement in order to surprise the opposition. La pausa without a team-mate that collaborates is just holding the ball until, perhaps, you get fouled and waste some time, if you need to waste time.

"It's important to have players capable of fitting your purpose. If you don't have quick players, like Barberón or Burruchaga, who like to make vertical runs, then la pausa is useless. But technique can and must be trained. I had my share from the potreros, but during matches, I believe more in matches than training sessions, technique can improve because you face the real situations of the game, and you have to resolve them as quickly as possible, and therefore the more precision your foot has, the better it is for the team."

And Bochini, for all that he was slow and physically unprepossessing, was always precise. Maradona may have been waiting for Bochini in 1986, but for most of his career, the maestro was waiting for others.

And some videos. Well worth a watch, as he is one of the most elegant playmakers I've seen.



Bochini's famous winner against Juventus in the Intercontinental Cup, after a series of passes with Bertoni. From 1:40

 
I still can't decide here. I feel like Julinho is going to have much joy on that flank especially since Junior is the 30+ year old vintage so slower and less athletic. But at the same time I am not at all convinced Zabaleta can handle Joya especially with Valderrama (not known to be industrious) on that side .