The Americas Draft, R1: P-Nut/D'cast vs Boris 5-8

Considering players at their peak, who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
Looking at Forlan'a three year peak as we should with all players in 154 games for Atletico between 07-08 season and 09-10 season he played 154 games and scored 86 goals. In the same period of time for Uruguay he scored 13 in 27, with 5 coming in the world cup.

This point towards a player of immense pedigree and not one that should be looked down upon for struggling at United.

His goals for atletico came in a team based on hard defensive work and surrounded by other strikers he could bounce the ball off of and link up with. He outscored a certain Sergio Aguero and linked up with him devastatingly. And before the claims come of this being a younger less prolific aguero 2 years earlier aguero himself was top scorer with 27 in all competitions. The following 2 seasons Forlan went into overdrive and eclipsed him twice in a row with 35 and then 28 in all competitions.

He is a legend of Uruguayan football and rightly deserves his place up with the top attackers in this pool.

For Boris to contain him he would need a rock solid centre back pairing something he himself has admitted he doesn't have in his side. This leads to only one thing. Goals for Forlan!
 
Pereira's wikipedia doesnt really do much for him here. This is an America's draft, and it mentions that he wasn't highly regarded in Brazil.

The "not-regarded in Brazil" probably originated from the 1974 WC. .

Let me clarify on Luis Pereira with a reference. That wikipedia entry was written for political not footballing reasons. It also comes from the debate surrounding the selection for the 1978 WC not the 1974 WC.


"Luis Pereira was a special case. The Atletico Madrid sweeper was perceived by many as a necessity for Brazil. He was looked upon as a sort of Brazil’s Mario Kempes, the foreign-based player that efforts must not be spared to include. Brazilian Federation emissaries negotiated with Atletico Madrid officials to obtain his release, however, they informed the Brazilians that he would only be released after the first week of May, when the Spanish League had concluded.

The amount of effort put in for Luis Pereira did not please everyone and some Brazilian club managers even stated in newspapers that his incorporation under these conditions was not necessary. A section of the fans also turned against him, especially after he declared that he had to prioritize his club because they paid his wages. In any case he was not selected for this tour or the World Cup itself"

http://theantiquefootball.com/post/120670249768/brazils-tour-of-europe-spring-1978.


The other thing that is tricky about Brazil selections between 1970 and Tele Santana around 1979 is that the military dictatorship was alleged to have a large say in who the CBF and manager Coutinho was picking at the time. There has also always been pressure to select star players from each state.
 
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Looking at Forlan'a three year peak as we should with all players in 154 games for Atletico between 07-08 season and 09-10 season he played 154 games and scored 86 goals. In the same period of time for Uruguay he scored 13 in 27, with 5 coming in the world cup.

This point towards a player of immense pedigree and not one that should be looked down upon for struggling at United.

His goals for atletico came in a team based on hard defensive work and surrounded by other strikers he could bounce the ball off of and link up with. He outscored a certain Sergio Aguero and linked up with him devastatingly. And before the claims come of this being a younger less prolific aguero 2 years earlier aguero himself was top scorer with 27 in all competitions. The following 2 seasons Forlan went into overdrive and eclipsed him twice in a row with 35 and then 28 in all competitions.

He is a legend of Uruguayan football and rightly deserves his place up with the top attackers in this pool.

For Boris to contain him he would need a rock solid centre back pairing something he himself has admitted he doesn't have in his side. This leads to only one thing. Goals for Forlan!

Much better. I rate Forlan , one thing I do see happening in this game with the trickery and tenacity of your forward line is a lot of free kicks, of which I'd expect Forlan to put in pin point crosses or find the back of the net.
 
Much better. I rate Forlan , one thing I do see happening in this game with the trickery and tenacity of your forward line is a lot of free kicks, of which I'd expect Forlan to put in pin point crosses or find the back of the net.

Just didn't have the battery before to go into detail and didn't know how long is be out for so wanted to highlight a player that most are thinking won't trouble Boris' back line when in reality he's a massive threat.
 
One other thing I have noticed is that Boris claims Gerson and andrade are going to track my wing backs runs in order to stop the obvious threat. That opens up another problem though.

I'm playing with 2 deep dms/playmakers and with both my wing backs bombing on at every opportunity the job of marshalling both of my 2 deep CMs will fall to Schiffano. That's an impossible task given that they were both great at engineering space.

Boris can't both dominate the midfield and track my wing backs at the same time.
 
One other thing I have noticed is that Boris claims Gerson and andrade are going to track my wing backs runs in order to stop the obvious threat. That opens up another problem though.

I'm playing with 2 deep dms/playmakers and with both my wing backs bombing on at every opportunity the job of marshalling both of my 2 deep CMs will fall to Schiffano. That's an impossible task given that they were both great at engineering space.

Boris can't both dominate the midfield and track my wing backs at the same time.
Andrade and Loustau. And they are not necessarily going to track man to man, more provide support to the full backs already there. Perhaps I worded that incorrectly.

Also, Forlan is now being talked as a match winner, someone who will score a free kick or find some space to score a chance. Alberto Spencer had 233 goals in 293 games, is the all time copa libertadores top scorer, and has Schiffano behind him creating chances. Spencer was essentially ambidextrous (similar to Forlan, had the speed to get away from defenders and had an incredible heading ability. That's many different ways to get a goal.
 
As good as Forlan was, he is one or even two tiers below Spencer and Schiffano, same with Tevez and Sanchez. The tenacity and work-rate will make up for some of it, but still, the gap in pure quality between the attacks is huge.

The claims that Gerson is the best player on the pitch but their manager is a little strange though.

Went with Boris, after long considerations.
 
As good as Forlan was, he is one or even two tiers below Spencer and Schiffano, same with Tevez and Sanchez. The tenacity and work-rate will make up for some of it, but still, the gap in pure quality between the attacks is huge.

The claims that Gerson is the best player on the pitch but their manager is a little strange though.

Went with Boris, after long considerations.

I probably agree to be honest that he has the better attack. But my tactics combined with the defence I've got on show can neutralise that. His defence is shaky and will definitely cough up goals. The same can't be said of my team.
 
I am the assistant manager.

@P-Nut0712 - for the 1st game only - did want the following philosophy:

- strong defensive base
- no traditional wingers
- no traditional central attacking midfielder
- some former United players: Forlan, Tevez...
- offensive players with high work-rate

I've chosen the defensive players.
 
So, let's go with the presentation of the players I've chosen.

Edit: I've just discovered the spoiler in the presentation
 
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I give both flanks to P-Nut.

Both Sanchez and Tevez can cut in and add to midfield battle. Tevez will be a constant nuisance and Gerson lacks the speed to get away or track him.

And it's a lovely defence with Cerezo shielding it.

The quality of attack from Boris is exceptional and Loustau will have his moments against Alves all through, but the 3 man defence kinda accomodates for that.

I give this 2-1 to P-Nut.
 
Santamaria - The Defensive Leader
Jose Santamaria is the greatest South American man-marker of all-time, is the best defender in history of Real Madrid club and was the best defender in the World during the 1950s, is one of the most international club decorated defenders of all-time, was an indispensable defender of Real Madrid “The First Decade of Galaticos” He was known for his toughness, uncompromising, top-class stamina and strength. Real Madrid brought him due to his world cup’s performance. Santamaria first played for Uruguay but later moved to play for Spain after playing for Real Madrid just one year. Nonetheless, he was dropped for Spain’s first team of the 1962 FIFA World Cup because of his failing down performance, had never been called for Spain any longer.

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Pereira - Stopper - To be considered as the one of the top 2-3 Brazilian Central defenders with Da Guia

Luís Edmundo Pereira (born June 21, 1949) played centre ack, in particular with S.E. Palmeiras, Atlético Madrid and the Brazilian national team. He won national championships in both Brazil and Spain beyond UEFA and the Intercontinental Cup. Known for his pace and power, as well as his marking and defensive leadership, he was, for a time, considered one of the best defenders in Europe during his time with Atlético Madrid. However, he was not as highly regarded in Brazil. While his defending style can be considered "classical," he is also considered the first and best of Brazil's "modern" centre back, a role that would go on to include world-cup winner Lúcio.

Quintano - Stopper - The best Chilean Central Defender after Figueroa of course

Emerged from Universidad de Chile in the 60s. These years were historic for the "U" and was the period known as the Ballet Azul. Furthermore, for a decade and a half was a key figure in the scaffolding of La Red.
At the end of that decade migrated to Mexican soccer, where he became the star in central defense of Cruz Azul, as a pair with Javier "Kaliman" Guzman. There he stayed for six years, and then return to the table to U.
In selecting Chilean found an ideal partner in Elias Figueroa, with whom he formed a spectacular defensive partner, who was described as a true 'wall' in the World Alemania'74.
He also participated in the playoffs in 1969 for the World Cup in Mexico'70 and in the playoffs in 1977 for the World Cup in Argentina'78, that on both occasions was not ranked Chile. In 1979, Quintano played the Copa America in Chile which was runner-up.
Quintano ended his career as an active player in the Club Deportivo Magallanes.

Alves - Wing-Back - Offer out ball wide right.

Regarded as one of the best full-backs of his generation, Dani Alves is an offensive right-back or wing-back who is known in particular for his pace, stamina, overlapping attacking runs, and technical skills, which also enable him to play in midfield, or as a winger; he is also gifted with good crossing accuracy and distribution, which allows him to link up with midfielders, and makes him an effective assist provider along the right flank. In addition to his ability to create chances, he is an accurate striker of the ball, and is known for his ability to score goals in particular from outside the area or long-range set-pieces. Despite not being particularly imposing physically, he possesses significant strength and tenacity, which along with his energy, anticipation, and work-rate, enable him to intercept passes or chase down and press opponents when not in possession, thus allowing him to aid his team both offensively and defensively.

N.Santos - Left Wing-Back - The greatest South American side-back of all-time

Nilton Santos was selected in FIFA world team of century in 1998. Nilton Santos was very outstanding in his attacking duty with his pace, world-class dribbling, crossing and noted for his incomparable technique, his superb reading of the game, actical knowledge of the his great fair play on the pitch. He was one of the first defenseman to advance deep into opposition territory as a legitimate offensive weapon. Considering of his defensive skills, He was not among the greatest ever in this point but he was still a world-class one during his era. Nilton Santos was based on left-side defender but sometimes moving to inside defender. He was selected in Brazil team for world cup 1950 which they won runner-up but he was not a starter at his 25 year olds of age as he just start his professional club career at 23 years old.. He is rated by Swedish newspaper to achieve the highest grade in every games in the 1958 World Cup. Afterwards, He gradually reached his prime and become an indispensable player of Brazil national team.

World Cup Participation : 1950, 1954, 1958, 1962 (15 Games)
2 Times FIFA World Cup Winners(1958,1962) +3 Times Copa America Runner-Up (1953, 1957, 1959)
Individual Achievement : 1958 FIFA World Cup Best Defender + 1998 FIFA World Team Of The Century



Danilo - Defensive midfielder
"The Prince" Danilo Alvim is the most talent and complete Brazilian defensive midfielder of all-time, is one of the forgotten legends from the era of the 2nd half 1940s despite being one of the greatest center-halfs in the World in his time. It is largely due to a highlight of defect in his career that lost Uruguay in the 1950 World Cup final in which is considered the worst disaster in history of Brazilian football. He also faced the car accident and resulting broken leg in his early career and have to wait until his 25 years old to win first caps. Danilo was famous for his elegant and beautiful ball control. Style replete of perfect passes and objective, short dribbles. He invented a very sophisticated and characteristic movement which was an elegant ball smoothing with the thigh. He possessed a very refined technique with majestic long passes. He was one of the best players of the 1948 South American Club Championship

Cerezo - Central midfielder
Toninho Cerezo is one of the greatest Brazilian defensive midfielder of all-time, was a great organizer and also full of defensively toughness and tireless combined with above average of skillful. After won player of the year in Brazil twice times, Toninho continued the successful career in Italian Series A and Italian rating of him shows his best season is the 1984 - 1985 with AS Roma. Aside from Sampdoria, He previously played for AS Roma and reached European cup final round with them. Toninho notably made a big mistake passing in the 1982 World Cup and Brazil disqualified for semi-finalist as a result. Toninho was selected in Brazilian Series A team of the year in three times. In 1993, He was selected as man of the match in intercontinental cup. He was chosen as starter in all-time Sampdoria XI by voting of journalists in www.channel4.com. He was named in top ten South American Footballer of The Year once time in 1980 which he finished 7th place
 
Pereira's wikipedia doesnt really do much for him here. This is an America's draft, and it mentions that he wasn't highly regarded in Brazil.

Absolutely false. Wikepedia is not perfect :smirk:

Somme illustrations of All-Time Brazil

Selecci%C3%B3n+Hist%C3%B3rica+de+Brasil+Glavisted.jpg


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Central Defender

1. Domingos Da Guia
2. Luis Pereira
3. Mauro Ramos
4. Lucio
5. Edinho
6. Aldair
7. Bellini
8. Ricardo Gomez
9. Orlando
 
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Relax. The theme ensures less comments and votes which is normal than a regular all time. Only Enigma Gio match had the frenzy, rest all were lacklustre.

I'm relax mate :) I like to tell some stories & have a lot of information about the players to make easy my vote.
 
Tactical change
Regarding the philosophy of @P-Nut0712, this picture would be more accurate if I understand well.

 
@P-Nut0712 why didn't you guys go with Ademir instead of Tevez(Ademir on the left, Sanchez on the right and Forlan center)? He's more fluent out wide than Tevez and IMO the better player.

I like the back five and IMO Cerezo can provide some distribution in the middle, although with that saturated middle of the park he'll have a lot of work to do with Danilo.

From a first glance Boris has the better midfield and IMO slightly better attack - Spencer up front with the support of Schiaffino and Loustau on the wing is mouth watering and Gerson pinging up balls from the center.

When it comes to defence - P-nut/DC one is really great.

@P-Nut0712 would love some more info on your keeper, cause frankly have no idea who he is.

You're absolutely right. Ademir is clearly superior to Tevez. One belongs to the top 5 greatest Brazilian #9 while Tevez is simply a good forward.

P-Nut is a fan of Tevez and of these players with grinta & work-rate

My suggestion was to change his philosophy if he wins: so Ademir was likely to start the next game
 
Time to speak about Forlan, the man who gives sense to the offensive strategy.
 
Some are fans of Wikipedia so let's start with a copy/paste.

Style of play
A technical, hardworking and creative player with an eye for goal, Forlán is a quick, complete and versatile forward who is capable of playing anywhere along the front line. He has been deployed as a striker, as a supporting forward, as an attacking midfielder, and even as a winger, often drifting onto the flank to begin attacking plays. He is capable of scoring with either foot[65] both from inside and outside the area, and he is also an accurate set-piece and penalty kick taker. In addition to his goalscoring ability, Forlán is gifted with good technical ability and ball control, as well as good vision and passing ability, which allows to play off other players, also making him a capable assist provider. Aside from his footballing skills, Forlán has also been revered for his leadership throughout his career.[70]

Some prefer stats/trophies


Uruguay
  • Copa America: 2011
  • FIFA World Cup Fourth Place: 2010
  • FIFA Confederations Cup Fourth Place: 2013
Individual
  • Pichichi Trophy: 2004–05, 2008–09
  • European Golden Shoe: 2004–05*, 2008–09
  • Trofeo EFE: 2004–05
  • UEFA Europa League Final Man of The Match: 2010
  • FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2010
  • FIFA World Cup Top Scorer: 2010**
  • FIFA World Cup Dream Team: 2010[75]
  • FIFA World Cup Goal of the Tournament: 2010 (vs Germany)[76]
  • Campeonato Gaúcho Top Scorer: 2013
 
Some prefer pictures to understand his versatility and why he will be happy with our offensive strategy

Copa America Final 2011

uruvper.jpg




Forlan as a false 9 during this competition Uruguay won


UruguayvPeru.jpg
uruvmex.jpg
 
Why do I think we deserve to win?

The answer is below

ugh-formation-tactics.png
 
P-Nut offers:

- 3 forwards
- 2 very great offensive wing-back (Nilton Santos & Dani Alvès: no possible upgrade with the exception of Carlos Alberto)

Given the quality of Tevez, Boris offers a little bit more of quality regarding his offensive trio but there is a big mismatch on the wings IMHO
 
Good shoot.

Zanetti is of course another great player but we did want an offensive RB, the Dani Alvès of the early 2010s
Zanetti, Cafu, Carlos Alberto are all better than Dani Alves offensively and a tier above overal IMO. Not that the difference is big or anything but I like the former trio better :) Of course Alves/Messi combo was great to see.
 
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Regarding the philosophy of @P-Nut0712, this picture would be more accurate if I understand well.


This is quite different from the illustration in the OP and would count as a tactical change (several players switching sides, etc.): However, we're past the 12hr mark, so you're free to make whatever changes you please (barring subs, of course).

If you want me to threadmark your post as a tactical update, let me know.
 
Let's talk about Brazil :)

Brazil WC 1950 Final


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Brazil 1954 - QF of the WC

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Brazil 1958 - WC Champion

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Brazil 1962 - WC Champion

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Brazil 1966

830183_Brazil.jpg


Brazil 1970

13d34935-8198-3179-b656-300c1e1f39b4.jpg



Brazil 1974 - 4th place

757596_Brazil.jpg


Brazil 1978 - 4th place

797506_Brazil.jpg


Brazil 1982 - Futebol Arte


70bcf81f-7814-3e9e-b1e1-5a56dc8a8eec.jpg


Brazil 1986

452508_Brazil.jpg


Brazil 1990

488894_Brazil.jpg


Brazil 1994


300px-BRA-ITA_1994-07-17.svg.png
 
This is quite different from the illustration in the OP and would count as a tactical change (several players switching sides, etc.): However, we're past the 12hr mark, so you're free to make whatever changes you please (barring subs, of course).

If you want me to threadmark your post as a tactical update, let me know.

Thank you for your suggestion. It's up to @P-Nut0712 to decide if it makes sense or not to make a tactical change.
 
Zanetti, Cafu, Carlos Alberto are all better than Dani Alves offensively and a tier above overal IMO. Not that the difference is big or anything but I like the former trio better :) Of course Alves/Messi combo was great to see.

Sure, they are better players than Dani Alves.

In terms of combo, Dani Alves did play with Alexis Sanches :D
 
Always love an excuse to post this video



This is potentially peak Ronaldo he is dealing with in the majority of those clips , I don't rate the defensive game of alves that highly but he did have some standout games against CR7.

The problem with alves for me is he went from above average right back to one of the best in the world thanks to messi. Their link up play was a joy to behold, I went to 6 games one season at the nou camp and every time these two were unreal. It's a strange thing to say but I'm a big believer that to perform at his peak level alves needs messi , and he doesn't have anyone even remotely close in play style here. Hel be a good outlet , but not as involved as he was with barca.

On a sidenote , I would like to see juve play alves in a central midfield role , kinda similar to how Monaco do with Fabinho. Reckon he'd thrive there.
 
Always love an excuse to post this video



This is potentially peak Ronaldo he is dealing with in the majority of those clips , I don't rate the defensive game of alves that highly but he did have some standout games against CR7.

The problem with alves for me is he went from above average right back to one of the best in the world thanks to messi. Their link up play was a joy to behold, I went to 6 games one season at the nou camp and every time these two were unreal. It's a strange thing to say but I'm a big believer that to perform at his peak level alves needs messi , and he doesn't have anyone even remotely close in play style here. Hel be a good outlet , but not as involved as he was with barca.

On a sidenote , I would like to see juve play alves in a central midfield role , kinda similar to how Monaco do with Fabinho. Reckon he'd thrive there.


Oh. Lucky boy :)

TBH, I had 3 top priorities regarding the RB: Dani Alves, Carlos Alberto and.... Vogts :devil:
 
Hey cheers for your work Downcast. Yeah the formation graphic can be changed as a tactical change if you could @Chesterlestreet. I did try and explain that the sharemytactics site wasn't working but don't know if everyone picked up on it.
 
Hey cheers for your work Downcast. Yeah the formation graphic can be changed as a tactical change if you could @Chesterlestreet. I did try and explain that the sharemytactics site wasn't working but don't know if everyone picked up on it.

:)

The result before my posts: Boris 5-3 P-Nut
The result after my posts: Boris 5-3 P-Nut

I'm an Impact Assistant Manager :cool::cool: