that goal reminds me of ronaldos at fulham
The Americas Draft, R1: Enigma/Joga vs Gio 7-4
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
- Start date
that goal reminds me of ronaldos at fulham
Have addressed your query in the post above and the reasons for that move. Also here is a game of Zito playing as the LCM with Gerson, ironically enough, as the right CM. Funnily enough, Zito is the more dominant central midfielder in this game although Gerson was nowhere near is peak and had to play the second fiddle
First Half
Second Half
Regarding the point on Gio's core having more graft in the OP, it's definitely a valid point as he has two excellent all-round attackers in Zizinho and Pedernera. And of course a more defensive minded midfielder in Pizarro. Not that ours is lacking by any means as in Zito we have the best midfielder on the pitch, Veron who can put a shift in and of course Kempes who happens to be one of the most hardest working forwards to ever play in that position. Moreover, there are other factors at play here too. Gio is playing two attacking full-backs who are needed to provide width, esp on the right, and they will require more cover as they are up against one Mane Garrincha and of course Ruben Sosa. On the other hand, Zanetti is playing a reserved tucked in role and Branco doesn't have a direct opposition player to contend with imo and with Zanetti in a tucked in role, he is the full-back with the most freedom to impose himself in this match-up. Secondly, there is a relative lack of creativity from the deeper central areas with neither his centre-backs nor his central midfielders being notably great on the ball, which is fair enough as they are extremely solid defensively. This is in contrast to Veron and Zito who are both great on the ball in their own ways, the former a top notch playmaker and the latter a nifty and astute operator on the ball. Pedernera and Zizinho were great playmakers but I'd say our build-up play and service for the forwards would be better with the midfield duo of Zito-Veron. Mind you as Gio stated, Silva-Pizarrol were fairly decent on the ball but relatively I'd give our midfield duo the edge here. So whilst Gio has the edge in terms of industry, there are other equally important factors to consider too.
Like I said - I have no problem with him playing there, just wanted to hear your reasoning behind this decision. Makes sense.
I'd compare it more with Bale's goal against Barca in the Copa del Rey, as the article below does. Almost identical. He was on fire on that tournament, 1989 Copa America, which featured Maradona's WC winning Argentina, a Romario led Brazil and of course Francescoli. Although Uruguay lost to Brazil in the final Sosa had scored 4 goals and was named the Player of The Tournament. Fantastic player and someone who excelled in Serie A when it was at it's heyday with the likes of Sacchi's Milan, Maradona's Napoli and several other fantastic sides.
Here are two great articles of him and some of his greatest goals in the Serie A for those that would like to see more footage of him
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/04/sports/a-rush-to-stardom.html
http://www.goaldentimes.org/ruben-sosa-uruguays-little-prince-a-poet-of-the-goal/
Whilst both sides have quite solid cores, I'd back both Sosa and Garrincha to have the most joy in this match-up, relatively, as stated above.
I don't think that a RCB role is Zanetti's game. He's fine enough there because he was a great all-round player, but he was all about working the flanks, transitioning into midfield and beyond. It's clearly a sub-optimal and sub-par Zanetti.
Sorry typo, tucked in defensive RB. He isn't playing as a RCB like a Thuram against an inside left but rather working the flanks but from a defensive point of view and squaring up against Ronaldinho. Just as Djalma Santos did for instance in that 1958/1962 side. He won't be overlapping but playing the supporting FB role.
Pizarro is better on the ball than Zito. Both Mauro Silva and Zito are very similar, with an impressive short game. We win in terms of industry but also have the balance to transition forward with a dedicated DM specialist in Mauro Silva and an all-round 'modern and complete' defensive midfielder in Pizarro.
That's fine, but it's still Zanetti with the handbrake on.
Going for Joga and Enigma. The setup works very well and exploits Gio's somewhat reliance on his full-backs for width going forward. Zanetti was a very accomplished defender so the lack of his forward forays is hardly problematic; from all accounts Gambetta is hardly the greatest defender. I see quite a few goals with the forward lines here but I see Enigma/Joga scoring more probably end up 3-2.
Zanetti has played balanced and positionally reserved roles before, key in point being Inter against Barca in the 2010 CL semi final. In fact, Gambetta on the left playing an attacking game is the one with the 'sub-par role' given how he isn't exactly a specialist left back. A versatile player but someone who is primarily a half-back who could do a job there. And he is up against Garrincha here whilst being asked to provide width on the left as an attacking full-back. As Physio and harms have already quite rightly pointed out, it's quite the ask.
Definitely a bold claim to make and I'd be interested to see if the neutrals agree with it. I'd definitely have to disagree with that and as good Pizarro's game on the ball was, I'd have to say it's inferior Zito's. He has to be one of the more underrated DMs on the ball and you wouldn't have to go far, just the videos on post 42, to see his class on the ball and how he ran Brazil's midfield in the absence of Didi. So much so that Gerson of all people (although not at his peak), had to take the back seat to him. It's quite telling that his nickname is 'El Gerente' (the Manager), not just for his defensive and organisational skills but for his leadership skills on and off the ball.
Brazil manager Vicente Feola said:
Mario Zagallo said:
True, but that was a very deep bus-parking job from Inter. Zanetti was an entirely different player by 2010 who needed to play in compact teams to be properly competitive. He also played at left-back when he did over Messi (funny that a full-back with most of his pedigree on the right was capable of such a performance
)Well we've got el Gerente and el Kaiser on the park then. If it's a familiarity contest then Zito wins. But I'm not taken with what's been said about Pizarro in this thread, some of it is borne out of ignorance.
A bit more on Pizzaro @harms with regards to his off-the-ball game from a Chilean site (translated):
I'm no expert on Pizarro, but the claim that he was better on the ball than Zito doesn't seem outlandish as such. Zito was good on the ball - downright excellent compared to several other great DMs in roughly his mould - but he wasn't silky smooth either.
Good and very efficient technically - and a very tidy, if not very adventurous, passer.
The fact - and it's obviously a fact - that he was a leader and had a first rate football brain in addition to the above is what makes him stand out. His purely technical quality isn't special regarded in isolation, though - that would be pushing it.
However, I find the comparison with Mauro Silva a bit misleading. They aren't very similar for me. The latter was a much more limited player for my money.
Good and very efficient technically - and a very tidy, if not very adventurous, passer.
The fact - and it's obviously a fact - that he was a leader and had a first rate football brain in addition to the above is what makes him stand out. His purely technical quality isn't special regarded in isolation, though - that would be pushing it.
However, I find the comparison with Mauro Silva a bit misleading. They aren't very similar for me. The latter was a much more limited player for my money.
Agreed by and large.
I'd go with Erico too as he was a great centre-forward on his day.
Let me just take this opportunity to highlight Morena's class on the ball too. There are plenty of links of Morena's goals in the OP (credit to @antohan for his great work). Wonder if he'd get a shedload of tags when he comes back
.However, these two videos of him do shed a bit of light on Morena's all round game play and his cultured left peg.
Would recommend a watch if one wishes to see more of Morena
I've loved reading about Morena and his exploits but in terms of 'greatest SAM goalscorers outside the big two' I'd have a few ahead of him there with the likes of Erico and Spencer leading the pack.
In this case particularly considering the service and tactical approach provided to both of them I'd expect Erico to have a better game here.
Yeah, there are a few others in this category, of course. And, as you can see further below, I also rate Erico slightly above - but Morena's goalscoring exploits can't be overlooked when we're talking about the most prolific scorers from that continent (big two excluded)
I dont have time to read through the whole thread and digest enough to vote yet so I will return but,
My first thought is that despite Enigma/Joga's description of that formation as a modern 4231, I can't visualize that team and set-up playing as anything other than a classic South American 424 - not that that is a bad thing I just don't see "modern 4231" (especially Kempes who screams second striker rather than modern AMC to me).
My first thought is that despite Enigma/Joga's description of that formation as a modern 4231, I can't visualize that team and set-up playing as anything other than a classic South American 424 - not that that is a bad thing I just don't see "modern 4231" (especially Kempes who screams second striker rather than modern AMC to me).
Precisely, Zito and Pizarro were good players on the ball but no great shakes in this context. The point being that you'd ideally have a more silky ball player in the midfield duo, unless of course it is a more specialised defensive set-up or a more pragmatic set-up in general. There does seem to be a wee bit of disconnect between Gio's midfield and centre-back duo and "the creative genius of its greatest attackers, its swashbuckling wing-backs". Now ideally, one could say it provides a solid base for his attackers to build upon and exhibit their talents (and I'd buy that myself) but it does leave some questions as to how good their build-up and inter-play between the midfield and forwards would be, without a specialised midfield 'ball player'. As I mentioned before this is definitely offset by the presences of Pedernera and Zizinho who were great playmakers, but even they had the likes of Rodolfi/Alvim etc who were renowned ball players in midfield to dovetail with - although one could say those sides' approach were distinctly more adventurous etc than your average side.
To be brutally honest, even I'm not fully convinced if it's (pragmatic core with a flair forward line/approach) a good thing as such or a bad thing as such, and would like to hear more about it from the neutrals. Brazil post 1986 is a good example and they've definitely had some great success, although I'd say it's generally a pragmatic core with flair forwards (the 3 Rs, Neymar etc) as opposed to playmaking slick give-and-go individuals. Would be interested in hearing the opinions of others.
Last edited:
Yeah, one man's 4-2-3-1 is another man's 4-2-4 - Brazil's 1970 for example, although it is a 4-2-3-1 for me. Now a lot of it hinges on Kempes's role in the side, on the ball he was a really unpredictable player who was capable of making those explosive runs from deep or finding himself on the end of things in the box etc - someone who really mixed it up. However, off the ball he was really someone who put a shift in and could be actively counted upon to help out the midfield and trouble the opposition etc. There were times in the 1978 WC where it almost seemed like he was playing as a LCM in a midfield trio, as opposed to your conventional second-striker who generally didn't drop back that much in the defensive phase. Definitely an unique player to categorise though.
I've found it really helpful to simplify Kempes' playing style by remembering the prime Rooney circa 06-09. Pretty much a carbon copy for my money.
Well, from Gio's perspective what he fields here aren't two overly pragmatic holders – but closer to one such player, and the more complete (and, indeed, ball playing) Pizarro. One may buy that or not – but that's the scheme as it's presented.
So, what you question as possibly lacking in the link-up/playmaking/ball playing department (as far the central duo is concerned) – is actually there to some degree if you buy Pizarro as a more expansive sort of DM.
Yeah, worth a discussion. In practice for the actual business of winning, I think both Zizinho's Brazil and Pedernera's River were too top-heavy (and let's add in Zico's Brazil for good measure). Even La Maquina didn't win as many league titles as they should have done, even though they were competing in a very strong Argentinian league at the time. Same for Zizinho's Brazil, they scored 13 goals in the 2 games prior to that Uruguay disaster. They clearly didn't max out on their talent in a way that some of the later teams did.
With regards to Pizarro, I chose him over Alvarez - who I rate very highly - purely because it appeared Pizarro was more of an all-rounder, probably not as physically imposing as Alvarez off the ball, but more of a wand of a right foot. If you look at some of Chile or Colo Colo's games in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the pace of the football is often frenetic and the transitions are rapidfire. I wouldn't class Pizarro as a mere continuity player, he's instigating and dictating a lot of vertical as well as the more usual horizontal play.
Now if you were merging both midfields, I'd probably go for Zito and Mauro Silva. Yes it would be a bit pragmatic, but it would give an exceptional platform for the attack to flourish, and also allow lots of freedom for wing-backs to hit the line.
Well I have a concern, not just that it's very close to 4-2-4 but Veron isn't ideally suited to such an attack-minded midfield set-up. Typically he needs more support and his best use in these drafts has been in hard-working and self-sacrificing midfield trios, which is a bit different to what he's doing here.
Off the ball it's a big concern against the likes of Pedernera and Zizinho and Ronaldinho in that area. Places a hell of a lot of demands on Zito.
This may reek of me humble bragging (because it is) but ... @DavidG I am fairly sure I came up against Pedernera in the first round of a sheep draft that was played around November/December last year (i won it because lol) believe it was against Skizzo and Pat who did their due diligence, might be worth digging it out if you want to find out a bit more.
Tbf, he exhibited some of his best form at Lazio in a 4-4-2 alongside someone like Simeone for instance. And he most certainly couldn't have asked for better support than one of the greatest DMs and the best midfielder on the pitch in Zito here, and one of the most industrious forwards (heck players) on the pitch in Kempes.
Not that Veron himself needs 'carrying' and he could put in a shift.
You left out Erico, Pizarro and Silva mate
That's true about Lazio. But what marked that out IMO was the presence of an absolute warrior on the left in Pavel Nedved as well as a reasonably hard-working wide player in Sergio Conceicao on the other side. A bit like United or Milan's 4-4-2, it was effective because the wide players ran their legs off and the midfield worked as a tight four across the park. I'm not sure you quite get that support for Veron here. It's fine in most situations, but with Pedernera and Zizinho overloading in between the lines, it's a big ask for him and Zito to handle things.
If we take the 1978 WC final as an example - which is undoubtedly Kempes's best he played in somewhat more of a midfield role rather than a SS or a pure attacker:
Had Ortiz as a wide forward and Gallego as a DM with Ardiles box to box. Kempes was covering a lot of ground.
Here's a compilation of his tournament - well worth the watch IMO:
He's not the typical SS or a #10 per say. Very unique footballer - coming from deep most of the time and really industrious. I'd argue who is the most industrious one among him, Pedernera and Zizinho. He helped the midfield a lot.
As for the formation itself - Zito is usually a bit deeper than Veron who is a central midfielder but with a playmaking role - who will make things tick and also move the ball forward. Of course his defensive contribution should not be underestimated - he played in an era when the Seria A was still at his peak and squared off against one of the best midfielders in the game and held his own pretty well I might add.
If we go by todays standards he's more of an industrious #10, but being quite unique player it's difficult to classify him in a pure positional sense.
@Chesterlestreet let me know if embedding without spoilers on second page is ok, I think it was only for the first page but I might be wrong.
Veron played in a lot of different formations during the years and obviously he had different roles in the teams he played in since different personel brought different set of skills on the table.
If we take this game for example we have Zito who practically did all the defensive duties in midfield in the 58 WC on his own - Zagallo was helping a lot in 62, but 4 years before that he was a bit more attacking minded.
Then we have Kempes - hardly you can find a harder working forward.
Sosa as well in the Uruguayan team usually started his moves from deep and offered support to the midfield as well.
The two players in free role and relieved of defensive duties are Morena and Garrincha.
Gifs are the problem - they should be spoilered regardless (because they can be a pain to load depending on your connection and/or device - especially those XL gifs people have started posting). Videos are fine, though - I don't think we need 'em spoilered at all, actually.
Aye, cheers. Gifs are indeed a pain if there are 6-7 at a time.
Generally he was in a 3-5-2 at Parma, a 4-4-2 at Lazio, then part of 4-5-1 experiments with United. Internationally Bielsa typically played a mad 3-3-1-3 formation. Common feature across all of those set-ups would always be a number of hard-working midfielders around him. At Parma where he probably played his very best football it was Dino Baggio, Alain Boghossian and Diego Fuser doing the dirty work. For Argentina he typically had a combination of Simeone and Almeyda feeding him the ball. I get the fact that Kempes is hard-working, but I do think he's starting from 30 yards further up the park, so while he will help with the initial press, if the ball bypasses him he's out of the game. Again, the formation graphic does show a fair distance between Zito/Veron and your attack which further reinforces that.
That's not Kempes at all. He played a lot deeper usually. The video I just posted above you can see him and his position on the pitch. He's not 30 yards away for sure and still scored 6 goals in that tournament. You can easily see him behind the halfway line usually.
Going purely by the graphs your playing a high line defence with 2 wing backs in Leandro and Gambetta
The graphic is pretty clear though - there's a fair distance between your midfield duo and your attack. So he is high and Veron will not have the same support he is typically used to.
Well if we purely go by the graphics you have 2 CB's who are playing in high line and two wing backs that are close to the middle of the park - which clearly indicates a high line. Both of your CB's are not suited for a high line of defence - neither are that comfortable on the ball and with the full backs that high up - leaves you very vulnerable at the back.
Kempes is playing his game. He occupies the space in front of Veron/Zito and behind Morena in terms of formation sense. If you browse through the video above you can see him usually covering a lot of ground - which is essentially what he does. He's not a classic 10 or a second striker in the classic meaning of it and helps a lot in midfield.
He plays deeper and surges forward. Without the ball he tracks back and it becomes 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 if you like, as Sosa also tracked back without the ball as he needed space to use his explosive speed.
Of course players move and are not pinned down to 10 yards that they operate.
Zito is an upgrade to whoever partner Veron had defensively. Kempes is the most hard working forward Veron has played with, Sosa tracks back as well and helps the midfield - both Sosa and Kempes are used to do so as I've said.
On the other hand you have Gambetta and Leandro who have to pretty much man the two flanks - especially Leandro with Zizinho tucked inside. Leandro will be up against Sosa/Branco, while Gambetta most probably will be skinned by Garrincha most of the time. You'll need Pizarro and Silva covering the flanks more often that not which leaves space in the middle for Kempes to exploit.
Agreed by and large.
I'd go with Erico too as he was a great centre-forward on his day.
Let me just take this opportunity to highlight Morena's class on the ball too. There are plenty of links of Morena's goals in the OP (credit to @antohan for his great work). Wonder if he'd get a shedload of tags when he comes back
However, these two videos of him do shed a bit of light on Morena's all round game play and his cultured left peg.
Would recommend a watch if one wishes to see more of Morena
Somehow forgot to watch them in the main thread. Just finished Milan one - and have to say, I'm very confused. It looks so much like what Rooney tries to do now (with much better passing and technique though), did he even had the touch in the opposition's box apart from the penalty? Although his passing, especially the long one, was very impressive.
Alright, I'm going to watch the second video now, maybe it was his way of cunning Baresi & co
Out of interest and as discussed earlier, Colo Colo's formation - placed great demands on the central midfielders to cover into wide areas.
Source World Soccer January 1992.
Source World Soccer January 1992.
Colo Colo's side looks like a 3-4-3 diamond with a sweeper. That would be an interesting watch
Yeah, worth watching a few of their games. Despite it being a negative era, there was a lot of fast-paced and gung-ho football. I particularly liked their right wing back, he was like Sorin on steroids with the same madman haircut.
Joga referred the first video for to showcase his excellent all round game in a sense that he's not a limited finisher, but he was fox in the box alright. A great finisher with both feet and head.
He could play as a poacher, central forward or even drop deep when there is no service for him and distribute the ball. His main position of course is as a center forward, second top scorer in Copa Libertadores. I don't know much about Erico to be honest apart from what I've read, but apart from Spencer who IMO is the best non pool 1 forward hands down, Morena is right up there with the rest. He's a terrific finisher with every part of his body.
There are 8 parts of his goals upped on youtube, unfortunately the quality is a bit crap:
There is a non official record citing more than 600 goals throughout his career. He was a true icon for Penarol, hence the great story behind the fans buying him back.
Just to provide better context of that match
That #10 was Jair for what it's worth. Seemed like quite the talented player from the matches that I saw of him for Penarol. One thing's for sure though, they badly missed him and were seriously bereft of ideas in that match-up.
Definitely a better representation of his game-play, although you can still see the really classy link-up play and his movement off the ball. Sets up a couple of lovely chances too and almost gets on the scoresheet. Did videos of him in those 2 games primarily to show that his overall game was at a pretty high level and he wasn't 'just' a goalscorer. Which was my impression of Morena, before watching him comprehensively.
If you are interested in watching more of him, I'd recommend the games against Gremio and Cobreloa in the Copa Libertadores finals, where you can see his goalscoring impact - 2nd highest goalscorer of all time in the Copa Libertadores after all