The Americas Draft, Final: Enigma/Joga vs oneniltothearsenal

Considering players at their peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
harms said:
Alexis needs to be the focal point of the team and the player to build a side around - like he is now at Arsenal or like he was at Udinese, or even for Chile. Here he is shoehorned on the right to make place for the real stars that you have centrally, and he won't be as good as he can be. He has the workrate and mentality to be very useful here, but I don't think that he'll shine here.

Here he is closer to the Barca version of him - a hardworking and clearly talented attacking player who sacrifices a lot of his game though
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That's definitely an interesting point, and it does lead me think more about the likes of Gilberto Silva, Leonel Sanchez and Alexis playing in a set-up, with a false 9 and Zico being the stars of the side from their Brazilian settings.

Firstly, Gilberto Silva is hardly the player that I'd have for in a set-up with a false 9, Zico and expect those nippy inter-play and one-twos etc. He was decent on the ball, but a limited player given the set-up and the role he's expected to play in terms of build-up in such a set-up. Leonel Sanchez was another fairly individualistic talisman who had both his club and country sides built around him. And whilst Alexis offers a lot of industry and is a team player, there is definitely some merit to your claim that he does need to be the talisman in some ways, as opposed to being part of a supporting cast (we know how he fared in a supporting role for Barca with a false 9 in Messi and how he does for Chile and Arsenal as their star player).

Alexis Sanchez said:
I love playing in any of the three attacking positions but I feel a little more comfortable out on the left because it allows me to take on the opposing full-back and cut inside and shoot with my right foot,

"It's easier for me to shoot that way but to be honest, I'm just happy to be playing wherever I am fielded by the boss
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I think he's versatile enough to play on the right but it does place him in more of a supporting role (esp given the cast here), and I do think he'd be relatively better in his peak role as one of the major goalscoring ball-carrying threats of the side.

Now generally I wouldn't have an issue with these 'individualistic elements' of each individual's game from onenil's side, and I normally would have been perfectly okay with Alexis, Leonel and Gilberto Silva being in the same side in any other game. However, given this context and with onenil trying to build a 'collectivist side' and one that is trying to get the best out of Socrates in a radical false 9 role and Zico from their Selecao backdrop, these aspects do deserve far more scrutiny imo. You can't have your cake and eat it.


Chesterlestreet said:
we played for a team with collectivist vision of the process
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Chesterlestreet said:
want to keep the ball as much as possible
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You can't sport a fairly radical set-up with a false 9 and expect the same free flowing football that Brazil played in 1979/1982 or whatever, whilst fielding a supporting cast with members, whose supporting game might not be at the requisite level to pull it off. Now it's definitely not dysfunctional, but I don't think onenil's side would be able to execute his tactics and 'ideals' to the extent that he'd like.


oneniltothearsenal said:
My team is simply a more cohesive unit than the opponents. Their play styles don’t mesh as seamlessly as my players.
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Interesting point of view, as I do have some concerns with how your side meshes with the ideology that you have in mind (which I have outlined above), and I don't see any issues with tactical cohesiveness or players not being natural fits for their roles in our side.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
@Joga Bonito I have ignored you for this entire match. Its not fair to go 2v1 IMO even at separate moments. I didn't have the option to "tag someone else in" or double vote for myself.

If you want to discuss after the match that's fine but going 2v1 is weak IMO so I don't read anything you said in the whole thread "Ignored Member"

You should have selected one of you to go 1v1 against me as would have been appropriate not tag each other in to cover moments you couldn't be online.
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Then you should have simply stated that at the start of the match and I'd have stepped aside (as I have done before in the past when the opposition manager has been busy and asked me to do so). Just like you did against mazhar/Marty in the semis, asking Marty to stop posting right after Marty's very first post.

oneniltothearsenal said:
Sorry mate, but if Mazhar is going to post frequently can you please not post?

I'm not interested in going 2 v 1
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Not sure why you've waited all this time and this exact moment to bring this point up in this match, but hey ho.

The AM being part of the discussions has always been part of these drafts. Not everyone has the time to take part in the drafts in a full capacity and I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions and contribute in the match-day thread of their matches, just because they are an AM (unless of course in special circumstances where you feel they are simultaneously posting or you are too busy or don't wish to debate with that particular AM etc)

Anyway, with that post I'm out. Good luck with the rest of the match.
 
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Joga Bonito said:
Then you should have simply stated that at the start of the match and I'd have stepped aside
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Didn't think I had to since I already said it.

Not sure why you've waited all this time and this exact moment to bring this point up in this match, but hey ho.
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Lesson Learned. I will mention it explicitly at the start of every match in the future that is 2v1 to allow no room for misunderstanding.
 
Fantastic final with two teams who both deserve to be here. I can really appreciate the decision to play without a striker when you already have Zico and Socrates and neither has to be nominal false-9 to make it work either in my mind, both being good goalscorers and with a great understanding. I don't agree about Alexis being as good as Joya at all and rather think that Joya and Leonel are of similar quality and I think that Garrincha and Zanetti would have the upper hand against Leonel and Andrade while there is probably a slight edge for Joya-Branco over Gambetta and Sanchez for me at least.

Socrates and Zico will wreak havoc for obvious reasons with Cerezo also getting involved there and on the other side Zizinho will do the same for Enigma. Two good centre back partnerships and there isn't much in between them at all even if I personally would prefer having Ruggeri and Godin if I had to choose. Both teams would play some fantastic football and I guess it all comes down to probability over beauty here for me. Onenil could play some magical football here if everything just gelled perfectly but there are so many aspects that could possibly go wrong. I can see the reason behind both Vidal and Silva being on the pitch and they don't look out of place to me in their respective roles.

In a one-off I would probably not vote at all but as we've sort of said that people should try to vote I will have to go with Enigma. If these teams played 10 games in a row I just can't see beyond the fact that Onenils team would have inherent issues in how complex it is to execute such a tactic while Enigmas team looks equally good and is a lot more straight forward.
 
Still torn on this one. Assessing both teams, there are no obvious mismatches in terms of system and quality. Both defences are solid on the whole. Obviously there are gaps - you'd fancy Zico and Socrates to create something in there, in the same way you'd see Joya and Garrincha creating for Erico as well, but nothing hugely decisive given the general calibre of defence on show. To be honest I think Enigma and Joga have a bit more quality on the park (the front four is very good, the defence and keeper are robust). Tactically both are solid, but I think oneniltothearsenal made a brave and astute move switching to the 4-2-4. It maximises the potential impact of the likes of Socrates (takes him out of a hard-running midfield), Gilberto (gives him a limited holding brief), both Sanchezes (keeps their wing-backs honest, with Alexis offering specific challenges to Branco).
 
Gio said:
Still torn on this one. Assessing both teams, there are no obvious mismatches in terms of system and quality. Both defences are solid on the whole. Obviously there are gaps - you'd fancy Zico and Socrates to create something in there, in the same way you'd see Joya and Garrincha creating for Erico as well, but nothing hugely decisive given the general calibre of defence on show. To be honest I think Enigma and Joga have a bit more quality on the park (the front four is very good, the defence and keeper are robust). Tactically both are solid, but I think oneniltothearsenal made a brave and astute move switching to the 4-2-4. It maximises the potential impact of the likes of Socrates (takes him out of a hard-running midfield), Gilberto (gives him a limited holding brief), both Sanchezes (keeps their wing-backs honest, with Alexis offering specific challenges to Branco).
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Very much what I'm thinking.

There is indeed a difference in overall quality, which can be traced back to making the Chilean bunch a priority during drafting. ONTTA paid top snake round dollar to secure them and in the process wound up not getting as much Pool 1 quality. In fact, one of these premium slots has gone to the keeper.

Somehow I see that as a merit though. The side isn't bursting with ill-fitting stars, would have room to move up a gear, and I do appreciate the effort it entailed in finding the right fits in Pool 2 (very much in the spirit of the draft, as is also the case with the swift and credible shift to 4-2-4).

I also like the use and emphasis on Socrates. He has been picked and misused so many times... some have even managed to make him look a peripheral misfit in 82 homage sides while regurgitating Zico's stats ad nauseam.

I don't think it's a draw, more a case that either team has a 50-50 chance of winning. That's why I want to have a look at the subs to make up my mind.
 
Subs: I can't see much scope for drastic changes considering the pools. Joga/Enigma clearly have greater flexibility with many like-for-like refreshments, Mujica an option if Branco were having trouble (I prefer and appreciate having Branco's contribution up the flank though) or if he needs to be sacrificed to bring on Veron for instance.

I'm aware this should be irrelevant as subs aren't allowed, but I mostly wanted to check for options that could help manage a game. The thing is, when a game is so tight I always revert to what is hard-wired into me from a young age: counter-attacking football works. I can see both teams trading punches, but in a tight game who scores first and how teams can adapt/react to that is huge.

If Joga/Enigma score first, they have a great setup to sit back, soak and hit on the break all day long. Their defensive core doesn't exactly have the best passers to launch these counters, but they do have scope for quick transitions and excellent passing through either fullback. Now here's the thing: if ONTTA scores first he pretty much carries on doing the same. With the players he has, that's in their nature, he won't close the game as effectively.

In a nutshell, that's what happened to that '82 side: Italy scored first. Had Brazil scored first maybe Italy would have had to open up and would have conceded more, as happened to the Argentinians being forced to chase the game (which wasn't in that team's nature or setup) and getting bummed. As it turned out, Italy got a goal in the first few minutes and Brazil had to spend the entire game doing all the running, all the risk-taking, and even when they managed to get back to level terms they were completely exhausted and had lost all shape or discipline so Italy wound up getting a winner only a few minutes later.

The first goal is a massive advantage if you are setup in a way that can exploit it effectively, and one side has the clear upper hand here in that sense.
 
Re: co-managers and/or AMs.

As mentioned before, we should discuss this further in a more appropriate thread. But there's nothing besides general draft etiquette to consider in this particular draft - nothing new has been introduced: As long as the managers aren't ganging up on a solitary opponent, there's no issue with both of them posting in the thread. That's standard procedure - a procedure which may be discussed (again) but that's another matter.
 
Jaysus - there you go.

Thought it was much closer.

Congrats @Enigma_87 and @Joga Bonito! Very well played - very well drafted. A worthy winner without any doubt.

@oneniltothearsenal Fantastic debut, really - you've been a big hit on the scene, and a great addition to our little community.
 
Thanks @Chesterlestreet you did an excellent job running this one and with the new tweaks in the voting brought a more appealing approach and IMO worked pretty well.

@oneniltothearsenal you have put and drafting a fine team mate, great game and good luck going forward and in the next drafts!
 
Congrats @Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito !

If my memories are good, Joga was rather unlucky in the last 2 drafts despite having a great team from the start.


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@oneniltothearsenal fantastic contributions in this draft. Your job is done.

IMO the result don't matter today in the sense that it was the last game, so not the frustration at not developing his ideas.

You have explained your strategy with brio and the most important thing is you have made a team you like, instead of collecting only shiny players.
 
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