The Americas Draft, Final: Enigma/Joga vs oneniltothearsenal

[Ecstatic]

I know very well PSG in the French league but don't know very well the 'Belgian PSG', certainly because of a lack of footage

@oneniltothearsenal Please don't be sensitive. Each manager just sells his team.

 

[Joga Bonito]

have a feeling @Joga Bonito and @Enigma_87 somewhat overrate their own midfield. As I mentioned before, I liked it better with Verón, it was far more balanced and not as dependent on Zizinho having a great game. Here Gilberto-Cerezo could really constrain him, and their attack needs service.

Tbf though anto, I wouldn't necessarily say Gilberto-Cerezo is the type of midfield which could contain Zizinho. The former was a solid midfielder, all things said and done, but I do have to question his credentials against someone of the calibre of Zizinho and whilst Cerezo was a nice all-round midfielder, and brings plenty of dynamism, energy and link-up play to his midfield, he isn't the specialist defensive sort who could get under Zizinho's skin. We went with Vidal, primarily because of the fact that we had one of the best ball playing DMs in the pool in Zito and one of the better #10s in Zizinho. We could accommodate a ball playing B2B midfielder, someone who during his peak years from 2010-2014, scored 53 goals, topped the goalscoring and assists charts not once but twice for league winners Juventus and runners-up Leverkusen (second in the assists chart in the Bundesliga).

We definitely get your point though. Whilst we do lose some of the creativity and service that Veron could provide, we do have other things to gain here with Vidal's dynamism and B2B game, and you just know that with Veron there against Socrates-Zico-Cerezo, the ugly narrative of Zito being isolated will rear its ugly head again (check out the first 2 games).

With Verón you just play through him instead, but Vidal? It's an issue, and I could see Mané chatting up the ladies on the sidelines more than I can see him going deep for self-service errands.

As you yourself stated, Joya was precisely the drop deep forward who is perfect for our set-up and Garrincha tbf to him, hardly required 'great service'. In the sense that it was more or less always a relatively simpler pass to him as opposed to a great defense splitting ball or a raking long range ball out to him. He is a wee bit static in his game-play, in terms of movement off the ball, and the dynamism and movement of Vidal, Zico and Joya suits him to a tee imo. Of course, someone like a Didi/Veron helps greatly in general, but it was less integral to the game of Garrincha as opposed to other more dynamic wingers imo (Finney, Figo, Best etc) who were more well poised in taking advantages of having a great playmaker imo.

 

[antohan]

Tbf though anto, I wouldn't necessarily say Gilberto-Cerezo is the type of midfield which could contain Zizinho. The former was a solid midfielder, all things said and done, but I do have to question his credentials against someone of the calibre of Zizinho and whilst Cerezo was a nice all-round midfielder, and brings plenty of dynamism, energy and link-up play to his midfield, he isn't the specialist defensive sort who could get under Zizinho's skin.

Yeah, sure, you wouldn't expect either to do a Makelele, but that midfield is nowhere near as porous as it was in the previous game. Gilberto ain't no fancy player, but being the only defensive-minded midfielder is a task he was used to and performed at the highest levels. Zizinho poses one of his bigger challenges but it's not outlandish to think Gilberto supported by Cerezo can deal with him.

We went with Vidal, primarily because of the fact that we had one of the best ball playing DMs in the pool in Zito and one of the better #10s in Zizinho. We could accommodate a ball playing B2B midfielder, someone who during his peak years from 2010-2014, scored 53 goals, topped the goalscoring and assists charts not once but twice for league winners Juventus and runners-up Leverkusen (second in the assists chart in the Bundesliga).

We definitely get your point though. Whilst we do lose some of the creativity and service that Veron could provide, we do have other things to gain here with Vidal's dynamism and B2B game, and you just know that with Veron there against Socrates-Zico-Cerezo, the ugly narrative of Zito being isolated will rear its ugly head again (check out the first 2 games).

Sure, draft polls vs. reality and all that. And you couldn't field Verón anyway from what I gather so it's not like you had the option without tweaking/weakening elsewhere. By the way, I have to say @Chesterlestreet got the proportions spot on with the pools. First time I saw them I found it a wee bit generous to have six Argies/Brazilians, but the way it has panned out it was just about the right balance to force decisions without necessarily sacrificing quality.

As you yourself stated, Joya was precisely the drop deep forward who is perfect for our set-up and Garrincha tbf to him, hardly required 'great service'. In the sense that it was more or less always a relatively simpler pass to him as opposed to a great defense splitting ball or a raking long range ball out to him. He is a wee bit static in his game-play, in terms of movement off the ball, and the dynamism and movement of Vidal, Zico and Joya suits him to a tee imo. Of course, someone like a Didi/Veron helps greatly in general, but it was less integral to the game of Garrincha as opposed to other more dynamic wingers imo (Finney, Figo, Best etc) who were more well poised in taking advantages of having a great playmaker imo.

It's a fair point, Garrincha doesn't need Hollywood balls. Djalma/Zito just square passed it to him and he did all the Hollywood side of things.

 

[antohan]

I have to say I'm rather disappointed. I expected a lot more gifs and game highlights from Joga/Enigma.

 

[antohan]

Going back to myths vs. facts, let's set the record straight on the supposed uncompetitive environment Joya revelled in:

- The Copa Libertadores featured the Champions of each league since its inception (bar Brazil which always had spastic league setups which didn't necessarily produce a national champion)

- During the 60s, Peñarol featured in 5 finals (one before Joya joined) and Nacional (the traditional domestic rival) in 3. This is in no way indicative of other participants being weak, more a testament to the strength of Uruguay's traditional Big Two. Make a parallel with the Barca-Madrid domination if you will, but Sevilla have still looked quite handy in second tier competitions.

- Peñarol won three and other winners in that decade include Santos (twice, their best team ever), Independiente (twice), Estudiantes (twice, with their most successful team ever) and Racing (once, their best team ever). Teams that tried but failed included Boca Juniors, River Plate and Palmeiras.

- The final was always settled as the best of three games. Had GD or away goals been in place Joya would have won 4 out of 4. Third games meant losing one to Santos and another to Independiente.

- South American football at the time was as strong (if not stronger) than European football. The two-legged Intercontinental Cup (not the shite Club World Championship of today) produced six wins for South America and four for Europe. Eusebio's Benfica, for example, never won it, while Santos, Peñarol and Inter Milan all won two.

- This tourno that is being made out to be uncompetitive and not a good objective basis for assessing teams and their players, featured the glorious and all-conquering Blue Ballet of Universidad de Chile five times during the decade. In 1960 they were sent packing by Millonarios de Colombia in the first round (9-0 aggregate). In 1963 they landed in a plum group with Boca and Olimpia, they won 1 game and lost 3, finishing bottom. In 1965 they were unlucky to be in the same group as Santos, so it was between them and Universitario de Peru to get 2nd place: they finished bottom winning one and losing three again. In 1966 the tourno was expanded to include league runner-ups. Surely in a group with another Chilean side and two Paraguayans they'll come through? They finished bottom of the group. Then in 1968 they got another shot, now in a Chile-Ecuador group, they finished bottom of the group again.

How someone can rave about three stars from that side, while arguing Joya was playing in uncompetitive environments is beyond me.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I know very well PSG in the French league but don't know very well the 'Belgian PSG', certainly because of a lack of footage

Please don't be sensitive. Each manager just sells his team.

That's fair. I only brought up an obvious exaggeration because Enigma made a silly exaggerated statement about Joya being "level above". The way I see it managers can both try to be objective and fair or they can both just resort to hyperbole to try to influence voters that may not know or have time to research.

I think I will stick to fair arguments from now on and when a manager makes a silly exaggeration I will just highlight the exaggeration and move on.

 

[Ecstatic]

- South American football at the time was as strong (if not stronger) than European football. The two-legged Intercontinental Cup (not the shite Club World Championship of today) produced six wins for South America and four for Europe. Eusebio's Benfica, for example, never won it, while Santos, Peñarol and Inter Milan all won two.

Yeah. I understand the level of SA leagues was stronger than the European one until the 90s.

 

[Ecstatic]

That's fair. I only brought up an obvious exaggeration because Enigma made a silly exaggerated statement about Joya being "level above". The way I see it managers can both try to be objective and fair or they can both just resort to hyperbole to try to influence voters that may not know or have time to research.

I think I will stick to fair arguments from now on and when a manager makes a silly exaggeration I will just highlight the exaggeration and move on.

Exaggeration is part of the game.

Yeah, express your views and move on if it goes into circles.

 

[antohan]

Yeah. I understand the level of SA leagues was stronger than the European one until the 90s.

I wouldn't go as far as that, I'd argue the switch started in the 70s with tactical developments in Europe that we didn't keep up with, then in the 80s money started funneling the brightest talents to Europe but due to foreigner rules they got scattered around. You still had Peñarol and Nacional being a match for the likes of Villa and Nottingham Forest, but by the late 80s Milan was a force that couldn't be compared with anything South America had to offer.

It's in the 90s that the gap starts being evident. A great Sao Paulo vintage tried to hold the fort, but with Bosman it all went to shit and while superteams emerged in Europe the big South American sides were left scrambling for the leftovers.

As far as I'm concerned the last competitive side was Riquelme's Boca (in an underdog kind of way) and the last one that was a joy to watch was River in the mid-90s.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

That's a very good side @oneniltothearsenal put out there. Without much of an idea on squads/options, I had mixed feelings about him picking Andrade. It felt like he was cutting the nose to spite the face (strengthen to try quell Garrincha but entirely give up on the much-needed width Marinho offered going forward). Marcos was the one screaming UPGRADE FOR A DM out there.

The way I saw it I had two main choices. Andrade and doing what I did, or picking a DM straight like say Mascherano. But based on how Garrincha was rated in previous matches I really didn't like the idea of Marinho there for this one. Focusing on Marinho going forward and Montero and Masch trying to cover Garrincha. Even though I think that tactic could have worked, it seemed trickier to make work.

Garrincha seemed to be such a game changer that I just wanted to put Andrade on him. I also wanted to try to isolate him and choke off his influence on the game but maybe the other one would have been better.

Maybe that would have been a stronger tactic who knows. It might have been more interesting for me to work on as it wasn't so obvious so possibly I decided wrong. After this match I'll upload it just to see what people think.

Leonel Sanchez is a good call (the only one in that UChi bunch I rate), Gilberto really helps shore up that midfield and Alexis at the other end makes sense as neither of his fullbacks could be expected to have much freedom. It's a good 4-2-4. It's a formation out of fashion but it's spot on here and in Socrates has the right man to help that 2 hold water and transition. It will be a harder sell than the rival's 4-2-3-1, but it's absolutely the right approach to this game.

Thanks for this comment. I think you do understand what I was trying for. I concluded early on that I needed a 424 because even if its harder sell than 4231 its easier than the 82 asymmetric 4222. Even if I selected Mascherano I still would done a 424.

Won't comment on the absurd claims on Joya and PSG playing in Belgium. I am inclined to agree though that there's nothing wrong with Alexis here.

As I said to @Downcast, I respond to exaggeration with more exaggeration. I shouldn't do that as it leads down a road to less interesting matches (at least for me when I am observing). I will try to stick to the facts.

I have a feeling @Joga Bonito and @Enigma_87 somewhat overrate their own midfield. As I mentioned before, I liked it better with Verón, it was far more balanced and not as dependent on Zizinho having a great game. Here Gilberto-Cerezo could really constrain him, and their attack needs service. With Verón you just play through him instead, but Vidal? It's an issue, and I could see Mané chatting up the ladies on the sidelines more than I can see him going deep for self-service errands.

This is pretty much why I selected as I did. Try to just keep the match tempo away from Garrincha as much as possible.

It would be a great game to watch, but I wouldn't fall for the usual "lots of goals, who will outscore who?", both CB pairs are immense. Joga/Enigma have the better overall backline (inc. keeper), which will help them no end as I can see OneNil having more possession, fluidity and playing/moving across that backline looking for an opening (that's where Sánchez is a great fit for his side to be fair). The big question here is how quickly and effectively Joga/Enigma can turn defence into attack (which is where you would rather Joya than Alexis).

Whoever scores first probably wins it TBH.

Even as I typed that I was questioning myself thinking 'how many times have I thought that before a big match only to see it end 0-0 or 1-0. I'll still say even if its 0-0 it should be a helluva interesting 0-0 to watch

 

[Joga Bonito]

These are the types of arguments that fascinate about draft games. I understand your perspective but I don't see the game playing like this. The way I see it Ruggeri and Godin have no chance of stopping or even disrupting Zico and Socrates in my set-up.

Funnily enough I'd definitely back Godin with his well-rounded skill-set to hold out against withdrawn and tricky South American attackers, as he's shown countless times throughout the years. In fact, I'd say it's Gilberto Silva who is going to struggle against Zizinho, and Domingos-Montero-Gilmar do not have the necessary aerial ability to deal with Arsenio Erico.

Not that they were weak in the air by any means, esp Montero who was good in the air but none of them were great enough to an extent to deny one of the elite headers of all time; with his technical ingenuity and esp his aerial dominance leading him to be given a multitude of nicknames - from Saltarín Rojo (Red Jumper), Hombre de Goma (The Rubber Man), El Hombre de Mimbre (The Wicker Man), El Hombre de Plástico (The Plastic Man), El Diablo Saltarín (The Dancing Devil) etc.

More material/quotes on him for those interested.

Spoiler: ARSENIO ERICO

The most elegant of penalty-box predators, Erico was the only striker of the day capable of inviting comparisons with the great Russian dancer. In an age when front-men were known merely for their brawn and bustle and ability to break the net, the Paraguayan attracted widespread admiration for his poise and ability to shake off opponents with feline grace

 

[Gio]

As I mentioned before, I liked it better with Verón, it was far more balanced and not as dependent on Zizinho having a great game. Here Gilberto-Cerezo could really constrain him, and their attack needs service. With Verón you just play through him instead, but Vidal? It's an issue, and I could see Mané chatting up the ladies on the sidelines more than I can see him going deep for self-service errands.

It would be a great game to watch, but I wouldn't fall for the usual "lots of goals, who will outscore who?", both CB pairs are immense. Joga/Enigma have the better overall backline (inc. keeper), which will help them no end as I can see OneNil having more possession, fluidity and playing/moving across that backline looking for an opening (that's where Sánchez is a great fit for his side to be fair). The big question here is how quickly and effectively Joga/Enigma can turn defence into attack (which is where you would rather Joya than Alexis)..

And Veron rather than Vidal. It's a shame Veron isn't on the park. I see the rationale in Vidal's endless energy versus the more leisurely Socrates. But with Socrates operating much higher, Vidal ends up in a slug-fest with Gilberto and Cerezo, and it's a missed opportunity for establishing some control. I'm not a huge fan of Gilberto in a general historical context, but he fits well here and has the defensive nous to keep tabs on things. In Enigma/Joga's favour, I've always been a bit sceptical of Socrates' aerobic capacity to properly influence the game in the hotbed of a modern midfield. But again, taking him towards the forward line plays to his strengths.

 

[Ecstatic]

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I wouldn't go as far as that, I'd argue the switch started in the 70s with tactical developments in Europe that we didn't keep up with, then in the 80s money started funneling the brightest talents to Europe but due to foreigner rules they got scattered around. .

This is an interesting point. I think this was an interesting and tragic era. The military dictatorships came in and a lot of bad things. For instance, Zico's brother (Nando iirc) was arrested and tortured in the 70s by the dictatorship. I have a feeling its why Zico and Socrates bonded so well off the pitch.

Footballing wise, the dictatorship and the whole "mechanistic and physical" approach dominated the CBF at this team. Managers like Claudio Coutinho were appointed who were intensely focused on the physical training aspects. Then there was the whole political aspect when players like Luis Pereira went to Spain there was press against him from that weird political angle.

IMO, it was the military dictatorships and focus on trying to disrupt the natural evolution of South American tactics that did the most harm in this period even more than Europe being richer. From all the old articles,etc I read those Brazilian teams of 74 and 78 were just not loved because they were built on this military philosophy of physical training that ignored what they players and fans believed was the true essence.

I really wonder how the tactics would have evolved if the top-down dictatorships didn't get involved. I think you can find pockets of tactical innovation in different places like how the Brazilian 424 was innovated relatively obscurely and separate from the Hungary 424.

 

[antohan]

The way I saw it I had two main choices. Andrade and doing what I did, or picking a DM straight like say Mascherano. But based on how Garrincha was rated in previous matches I really didn't like the idea of Marinho there for this one. Focusing on Marinho going forward and Montero and Masch trying to cover Garrincha. Even though I think that tactic could have worked, it seemed trickier to make work.

Garrincha seemed to be such a game changer that I just wanted to put Andrade on him. I also wanted to try to isolate him and choke off his influence on the game but maybe the other one would have been better.

Maybe that would have been a stronger tactic who knows. It might have been more interesting for me to work on as it wasn't so obvious so possibly I decided wrong. After this match I'll upload it just to see what people think.

Nah, I prefer the logic of putting a good defender on him and focusing on getting the attack right. Mascherano is a good shout and certainly deserved a better outing in this draft. I suppose him dropping and covering a Montero that covers Marinho would work. The question then would be if your midfield was sufficiently protected from Zizinho running riot... It just sounds like an awful lot of things being done to contain Garrincha and which we would have to believe would work. I prefer this "I get the ball and let's see how you get it off me" logic, Garrincha can do no damage without the ball.

As I said to @Downcast, I respond to exaggeration with more exaggeration. I shouldn't do that as it leads down a road to less interesting matches (at least for me when I am observing). I will try to stick to the facts.

Fair enough. Do that as the "level above" comment could be better assessed in light of the teams and what they need, not by making shit up about Joya. The simple fact is your frontline is more possession oriented and that suits Alexis to a T, while Joga/Enigma will be a more direct attacking side and that calls for someone like Joya.

FWIW, I had to bring up the Blue Ballet again above to show exactly how competitive the football was. However, I don't see that as a slight on Leonel Sanchez who did look a handful whenever I saw him (in fact, I had to watch that horrendously bad game against Italy researching Eyzaguirre when I faced him some time ago and throughout the only one that caught my eye was Sánchez).

Even as I typed that I was questioning myself thinking 'how many times have I thought that before a big match only to see it end 0-0 or 1-0. I'll still say even if its 0-0 it should be a helluva interesting 0-0 to watch

I didn't notice you had said it, I imagined many were thinking it, but the CB pairs are beastly. There are no cheap goals to be conceded in this game but plenty of entertainment and that is in no small part due to the approach. The other approach with everyone running around worrying about Garrincha would have been a disaster IMO.

 

[antohan]

And Veron rather than Vidal. It's a shame Veron isn't on the park. I see the rationale in Vidal's endless energy versus the more leisurely Socrates. But with Socrates operating much higher, Vidal ends up in a slug-fest with Gilberto and Cerezo, and it's a missed opportunity for establishing some control. I'm not a huge fan of Gilberto in a general historical context, but he fits well here and has the defensive nous to keep tabs on things. In Enigma/Joga's favour, I've always been a bit sceptical of Socrates' aerobic capacity to properly influence the game in the hotbed of a modern midfield. But again, taking him towards the forward line plays to his strengths.

I think he couldn't play unless Ruggeri got dropped for Ancheta or something like that. Or am I getting that wrong? I would prefer Verón though, no doubt, that midfield just doesn't quite click in my mind.

 

[Ecstatic]

Garrincha also had a talent for charming women and it was during a tour of Sweden with the Rio team Botafogo that he had a brief affair with Ulf's mother.

She gave him up for adoption to a middle-class Swedish family when he was only nine months old.

It was only at the age of seven that his adoptive parents told him that his father was Garrincha, who had 14 children through various relationships.

But the meeting of father and son never happened. "I very much regret never having met him," Ulf admitted.

Ulf is in Stockholm this week as a special guest at the farewell friendly game between Brazil and Sweden on Wednesday at the Rasunda, the stadium where his father played in the final of the 1958 World Cup, the first of five Brazil have won.

The arena is to be knocked down and its newer replacement has already been built in the same neighbourhood.

"Until today, I often find myself thinking how it would be nice to have known my father and say how much I admire him," Ulf told BBC Brasil.

After a match in Gothenburg against the Russian team, the paper said he was an alien talent, asking: 'What planet is he from?'

Ulf Lindberg
"But it was not possible. Unfortunately, he had serious problems with alcohol. If not, he could be among us celebrating the reunion with his companions from '58."

In 1977, a Swedish newspaper reported that Garrincha wanted to meet his son.

It was agreed that it would happen in the following year, when Ulf was expected to travel to Argentina, during the 1978 World Cup, where Garrincha was due to work as a commentator.

"But the trip did not happen," Ulf said. "My father used to drink a lot and unfortunately was not well."

Garrincha died on January 20, 1983.

Ulf has been to Brazil three times and, during one trip for a TV documentary, discovered he would never know his mother either - she had died months earlier.

Garrincha had ten daughters and Ulf said meeting his sisters was an emotional event.

"At that moment, being the son of Garrincha became a reality for me," he said.

On the same trip Ulf was able to visit his father's tomb in the district of Pau Grande in Mage, Rio de Janeiro.

He also continues to try to get a greater understanding of his father in newspaper clippings, films, TV and on the internet.

"One of my favourite newspaper headlines about my father was here in Sweden," he explained. "After a match in Gothenburg against the Russian team, the paper said he was an alien talent, asking: 'What planet is he from?'".

Now aged 52, Ulf is divorced and works selling sausages in a trailer in Halmstad. He has four children: Jonas, 25, Martin, 22, and twins Hendrik and Linnea, 14.

None of them speak Portuguese, but they are passionate about football.

Martin had to overcome a serious knee injury two years ago and is now training for a local football team.

Ulf is not alone in seeing this week's match as a chance to catch up again with his father's legacy.

"Now, Garrincha is up in the sky looking at us", Pele said during a press conference in the stadium with other surviving members of the historic 1958 World Cup. "My life started here."

Ulf is already planning his next trip to Brazil for the World Cup in 2014.

"I love the sun, I love the heat, I love the kiosks along Copacabana beach," he added. "In two years' time, I will be there."

 

[Ecstatic]

Ulf: the son of Garrincha

The son of Ulf

 

[Joga Bonito]

And Veron rather than Vidal. It's a shame Veron isn't on the park. I see the rationale in Vidal's endless energy versus the more leisurely Socrates. But with Socrates operating much higher, Vidal ends up in a slug-fest with Gilberto and Cerezo, and it's a missed opportunity for establishing some control. I'm not a huge fan of Gilberto in a general historical context, but he fits well here and has the defensive nous to keep tabs on things. In Enigma/Joga's favour, I've always been a bit sceptical of Socrates' aerobic capacity to properly influence the game in the hotbed of a modern midfield. But again, taking him towards the forward line plays to his strengths.

Also a nice video of Vidal, putting his constructive side of the game under the spotlight - very much a modern B2B midfielder. In fact, during the last draft when the discussion revolved around who would be the best modern remake for Matthäus, it was no surprise that it was Vidal who was mentioned the most.



A MOTM game in the Copa America Final against Messi's Argentina - great all-round game from him, esp his astute use of the ball and ball carrying ability.

Another key point to note is that apart from Cerezo (with Gilberto in a reserved holding role), there won't be much pressing from Zico and Socrates, neither of whom were capable of putting in shifts off the ball or harrying players. So Vidal does have ample space and time to impose himself upon this game.



As I've stated before he's a fine ball playing B2B midfielder and with one of the best ball playing DMs in the pool in Zito, and of the better playmaking #10s, in Zizinho, there's no want for a lack of control here. We are a relatively more direct side with our prime playmaker being the Brazilian maestro Zizinho - one of the greatest #10s in the fabled Selecao history and a supreme playmaker. In fact he's regarded as the mentor to Gerson and was nicknamed Master Ziza, out of respect and due to his classy and silky skills on the ball.

I idolised Zizinho more than any other player. His passing, shooting and positioning were frighteningly good. He did everything so well and he was the complete player. He could play in midfield or up front and he could defend well too. He was a brilliant header of the ball and there weren’t many who could dribble like him either. He was a born creator. And on top of all that, he wasn’t scared to play dirty. He could be tough when he needed to.

Leonardo da Vinci, "creating works of art with his feet on the immense canvas of the Maracan pitch

 

[Joga Bonito]

I think he couldn't play unless Ruggeri got dropped for Ancheta or something like that.

Yeah, he can't play here anyway.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Nah, I prefer the logic of putting a good defender on him and focusing on getting the attack right. Mascherano is a good shout and certainly deserved a better outing in this draft. I suppose him dropping and covering a Montero that covers Marinho would work. The question then would be if your midfield was sufficiently protected from Zizinho running riot... It just sounds like an awful lot of things being done to contain Garrincha and which we would have to believe would work. I prefer this "I get the ball and let's see how you get it off me" logic, Garrincha can do no damage without the ball.

Yes. That's what I concluded. Just put Andrade on Garrincha old school South American 1v1 and focus on keeping possession and attacking. Not devoting more than one player really to stop another, saving resources.

Fair enough. Do that as the "level above" comment could be better assessed in light of the teams and what they need, not by making shit up about Joya. The simple fact is your frontline is more possession oriented and that suits Alexis to a T, while Joga/Enigma will be a more direct attacking side and that calls for someone like Joya.

I would agree. Joya suits their set-up well and Alexis suits my set-up well.

FWIW, I had to bring up the Blue Ballet again above to show exactly how competitive the football was. However, I don't see that as a slight on Leonel Sanchez who did look a handful whenever I saw him (in fact, I had to watch that horrendously bad game against Italy researching Eyzaguirre when I faced him some time ago and throughout the only one that caught my eye was Sánchez).

That's fair, and yes that game was awful. I did like how Leonel just doesn't let alone feck with him though. I felt he was suited to keeping Zanetti occupied.

 

[Joga Bonito]

in fact, I had to watch that horrendously bad game against Italy researching Eyzaguirre when I faced him some time ago and throughout the only one that caught my eye was Sánchez).

I'm confused, are you talking about the game in 1962 (Battle of Santiago) or the 1966 game (where he was absolutely ripped a new one by Barison - I mean he looked absolutely awful)

 

[antohan]

This is an interesting point. I think this was an interesting and tragic era. The military dictatorships came in and a lot of bad things. For instance, Zico's brother (Nando iirc) was arrested and tortured in the 70s by the dictatorship. I have a feeling its why Zico and Socrates bonded so well off the pitch.

Footballing wise, the dictatorship and the whole "mechanistic and physical" approach dominated the CBF at this team. Managers like Claudio Coutinho were appointed who were intensely focused on the physical training aspects. Then there was the whole political aspect when players like Luis Pereira went to Spain there was press against him from that weird political angle.

IMO, it was the military dictatorships and focus on trying to disrupt the natural evolution of South American tactics that did the most harm in this period even more than Europe being richer. From all the old articles,etc I read those Brazilian teams of 74 and 78 were just not loved because they were built on this military philosophy of physical training that ignored what they players and fans believed was the true essence.

I really wonder how the tactics would have evolved if the top-down dictatorships didn't get involved. I think you can find pockets of tactical innovation in different places like how the Brazilian 424 was innovated relatively obscurely and separate from the Hungary 424.

Mmmm... I would agree the dictatorships had a negative influence although it was more of a "panem et circenses" kind of way. Football, not religion, is the opium of our masses, and the leaders knew it so kept interfering with team selections and such stuff. The disciplinarian approach was still rearing its head 20 years later with Passarella ditching Redondo and making Batistuta get a haircut.

I wouldn't however say that was the central issue. Ultimately the problem was the tactical developments ran counter to how people lived and understood football. The whole debate over discipline/tactics/results vs the naive abandon of jogo bonito was still raging when I lived in Brazil in 2000-2003. In fact, that's all they ever talked about and the easiest way to classify pundits was pro-Tele/82 and pro-Parreira/94. It's also what the whole Romario debate ultimately boiled down to in 1998 and 2002: the people vs. management.

Being in Brazil in the run-up to 2002 was quite the experience as they had a side which had everything to be a Jogo Bonito side and a manager who was very much in the Parreira/results camp. It was weird because I thought they had found the right balance overall, but neither camp was 100% happy so they all complained throughout the tournament

 

[antohan]

Ulf: the son of Garrincha


The son of Ulf

Either of them any good?

 

[Ecstatic]

Either of them any good?

They could be eligible for the Reserve Reserve Draft - Part II

 

[antohan]

I'm confused, are you talking about the game in 1962 (Battle of Santiago) or the 1966 game (where he was absolutely ripped a new one by Barison - I mean he looked absolutely awful)

Battle of Santiago. I thought the only way I could assess him fairly was going to their better WC performance. Bored my tits off watching someone who was evidently not a defender but wasn't exposed anyway because well, you know, it was Italy.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Battle of Santiago. I thought the only way I could assess him fairly was going to their better WC performance. Bored my tits off watching someone who was evidently not a defender but wasn't exposed anyway because well, you know, it was Italy.

Well watch the game in 1966 then. I watched it to see how Rivera-Mazzola got on and of course the likes of Figueroa, Facchetti, Burgnich, Bulgarelli etc. Needless to say it was Eyzaguirre who caught my eye the most .

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Mmmm... I would agree the dictatorships had a negative influence although it was more of a "panem et circenses" kind of way. Football, not religion, is the opium of our masses, and the leaders knew it so kept interfering with team selections and such stuff. The disciplinarian approach was still rearing its head 20 years later with Passarella ditching Redondo and making Batistuta get a haircut.

I can only respond to this tangent right now. Between you mentioning Passarella and @Downcast mentioning that Garrincha story I want to share a story. I will paraphrase for brevity. Garrincha would have loved Socrates' parties.

That year Socrates was in Fiorentina he decided to throw a 3 day long carnaval party. He invited all the Brazilians playing in Italy then. Zico showed up with his family from Udinese and Cerezo from Roma with his family were there. He invited people from his Italian neighbors, to famous musicians to people who worked at the embassy. The 3 day event got so crowded, Socrates paid for Zico and Junior to move their families into a nearby hotel to have a break from the wildness.

A number of teammates and friends arrived included Italy's 1982 World Cup winners Gentile, Oriali, Antognoni and Galli. Also was teammate Passarella. All the Italians and Passarella were not accustomed to the party atmosphere and were wearing suits and ties. Junior recounts that Socrates comes out with these giant tree clipping shears and starts clipping all the Italians and Passarella's ties. Junior says they were expensive designer ties but the Italians and Passarella took it in good fun. T

 

[Joga Bonito]

Some other interesting anecdotes that I came across

Goal by Zizinho

Again, it was at the World Cup in 1950. In the match against Yugoslavia, Brazil’s midfielder Zizinho scored a double goal.

This lord of soccer grace scored a clean goal and the referee disallowed it unfairly. So Zizinho repeated it step by step. He entered the box at the same spot, dribbled around the same Yugoslav defender with the same delicacy, slipping by on the left as before, and he drove the ball in at exactly the same angle. Then he kicked the ball angrily several times against the net.

The referee understood that Zizinho was capable of repeating that goal ten more times, and he had no choice but to allow it.

Goal by Puskas

It was 1961. Real Madrid was playing at home against Atletico of Madrid.

No sooner had the game begun when Ferenc Puskas scored a double goal, just as Zizinho had in the ’50 World Cup. The Hungarian striker for Real Madrid executed a free kick at the edge of the box and the ball went in. But as Puskas celebrated with his arms in the air the referee went up to him. “I’m sorry,” he said, “but I didn’t whistle.”

So Puskas shot again. He kicked the ball with his left foot, as before, and the ball traveled the same path: like a cannonball over the heads of the same players in the wall and just like the goal that had been disallowed, it landed in the upper left corner of the net tended by Madinabeytia, who leapt as before and, as before, was unable even to graze it.

On the field a number of players still wandered about. The two best crossed paths, Obdulio and Zizinho. They crossed paths. They eyed each other.

They were very different. Obdulio, the victor, was made of steel. Zizinho, the vanquished, was made of music. But they were also very much alike: both had played nearly the entire championship injured, an inflamed ankle in one case, a swollen knee in the other, and not a complaint was heard from either.

Now, at the end of the match, they didn’t know if they should give each other a slug or a hug.

Years later, I asked Obdulio, “Do you ever see Zizinho?”

“Sure. Once in a while,” he said. “We close our eyes and we see each other.”

 

[antohan]

Great stories!

By the way, that book by Eduardo Galeano is worth its weight in gold.

RIP

 

[mazhar13]

I love me some lopsided formations, and that 4-2-4 by ONTTA is beautiful. I can see Socrates and Zico work perfectly in that, and Alexis can dovetail so well with Socrates as well. Both love to roam around, but Alexis on the right is in his more natural role, and he and Socrates can work very well together. The same goes for Leonel and Zico.

As much as Gilberto Silva seems underwhelming in that team, he fits like a glove in that defensive midfield role. It gives Toninho the perfect platform to play his more natural box-to-box game, and Toninho's passing will come to the fore with the likes of Zico and Socrates moving about and making themselves available for him.

Both defences are quite solid, overall, and whilst Godin-Ruggeri may initially seem incompatible, Godin's flawless positioning and anticipation should leave him in good stead to stop Zico and Socrates from ruining the defensive shape. Having said that, though, I struggle to see how Zito and Vidal will cope with the movement.

Vidal himself is a great ball-winning midfielder whose passing range and accuracy as well as vision is starting to get underrated in this thread. I see no issue with him being in place of Veron. I don't really see how Vidal will struggle to be influential from the support and provide support to Zizinho with his all-action game, particularly since one cannot expect Socrates and Zico to really provide much support defensively. Alexis can do that, sure, but then he's also dealing with Branco, and I don't see him dealing with both Vidal and Branco together.

On the other hand, Gambetta can play a key role here for ONTTA. With Branco already having to deal with Alexis 1-on-1 (not an easy task at all), Gambetta can be key here in providing Socrates the space to play his game. This goes both ways, however, as EnigJoga's midfield is really good on the ball and can take control of the match overall, and Zito may become a key 3rd man here as well in this match.

It's tough to decide. Both teams have been set up quite well.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's fair. I only brought up an obvious exaggeration because Enigma made a silly exaggerated statement about Joya being "level above". The way I see it managers can both try to be objective and fair or they can both just resort to hyperbole to try to influence voters that may not know or have time to research.

I think I will stick to fair arguments from now on and when a manager makes a silly exaggeration I will just highlight the exaggeration and move on.

I just want to address this point which IMO is a bit over the top. I stand by what I've said and for me Joya is in the upper tier compared to Alexis as a winger which was the point in question. This is not something I've said to discredit Alexis - far from it.

Most of the sites that rank players historically place Joya as one of the top left wingers in the game(or just wingers if we compare the position). I obviously rate Alexis, but to me if their careers end today, historically he's a tier below Joya. Something you will of course disagree and others might as well, but again that's my personal opinion and I stand by it regardless of the tie.

Of course depending on the formation and tactics both could shine differently and as other mentioned in your set up Alexis fits better and vice verca.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Zico Back Heel Nutmeg (2:32)



Zico and Socrates Combo (1:36)



Zico Dribbling (3:41)

Spoiler

Zico Acrobatic goal again (4:24)

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/mHDmzYPnsTM?t=264

Zico goal

Spoiler

Alexis Sanchez on the right / insideright

Spoiler

Socrates Backheel - I posted before but I just love this pass


Socrates ball retention and goal

I just want to address this point which IMO is a bit over the top. I stand by what I've said and for me Joya is in the upper tier compared to Alexis as a winger

Your opinion is noted. Alexis does not care

I love me some lopsided formations, and that 4-2-4 by ONTTA is beautiful. I can see Socrates and Zico work perfectly in that, and Alexis can dovetail so well with Socrates as well. Both love to roam around, but Alexis on the right is in his more natural role, and he and Socrates can work very well together. The same goes for Leonel and Zico.

As much as Gilberto Silva seems underwhelming in that team, he fits like a glove in that defensive midfield role. It gives Toninho the perfect platform to play his more natural box-to-box game, and Toninho's passing will come to the fore with the likes of Zico and Socrates moving about and making themselves available for him.

Both defences are quite solid, overall, and whilst Godin-Ruggeri may initially seem incompatible, Godin's flawless positioning and anticipation should leave him in good stead to stop Zico and Socrates from ruining the defensive shape. Having said that, though, I struggle to see how Zito and Vidal will cope with the movement.

Vidal himself is a great ball-winning midfielder whose passing range and accuracy as well as vision is starting to get underrated in this thread. I see no issue with him being in place of Veron. I don't really see how Vidal will struggle to be influential from the support and provide support to Zizinho with his all-action game, particularly since one cannot expect Socrates and Zico to really provide much support defensively. Alexis can do that, sure, but then he's also dealing with Branco, and I don't see him dealing with both Vidal and Branco together.

On the other hand, Gambetta can play a key role here for ONTTA. With Branco already having to deal with Alexis 1-on-1 (not an easy task at all), Gambetta can be key here in providing Socrates the space to play his game. This goes both ways, however, as EnigJoga's midfield is really good on the ball and can take control of the match overall, and Zito may become a key 3rd man here as well in this match.

It's tough to decide. Both teams have been set up quite well.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments Maz. Regarding the midfield, the other thing to note is I have an extra man at the back and Montero won't always need Domingos to cover for him. Domingos was reported to have moved into midfield at times so there is that as well. With the mix of skills of Domingos, Cerezo and Gilberto Silva I struggle to see Zizinho having any influence here which Erico really needs. I feel the seamless way my team interacts provides an advantage here.

 

[antohan]

Who's on the bench? Yeah, I know cosmetic changes aren't allowed, but IRL teams do have subs as an option.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Who's on the bench? Yeah, I know cosmetic changes aren't allowed, but IRL teams do have subs as an option.

I won't deny he probably has a stronger bench for making an offensive impact if subs were allowed with Sosa, Kempes and Veron while I really only have Careca but I just want to emphasize the no subs rule did affect which positions I selected multiple of. I picked a lot CB-DM for options in the first round. If we were allowed subs I would have 100% selected differently in the last rounds 12-14.

 

[antohan]

I won't deny he probably has a stronger bench for making an offensive impact if subs were allowed with Sosa, Kempes and Veron while I really only have Careca but I just want to emphasize the no subs rule did affect which positions I selected multiple of. I picked a lot CB-DM for options in the first round. If we were allowed subs I would have 100% selected differently in the last rounds 12-14.

They can't play Veron or Kempes without subbing in Ancheta for Ruggeri iirc. Which I wouldn't (nor do I see Sosa as an improvement in this game).

Who are the subs?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

They can't play Veron or Kempes without subbing in Ancheta for Ruggeri iirc. Which I wouldn't (nor do I see Sosa as an improvement in this game).

Who are the subs?

For me Careca, Marinho and Julio Cesar (def) from Brazil
and then pool 2 Eyzaguirre, Marcos, Gilberto Yearwood, Ignacio Prieto and Holger Quinonez. He also has Aguero too.

I do have 5 Pool 2 players on the pitch at the moment for the record so I do think I have options depending on the match more than them for instance Careca for Socrates if Socrates actually got gassed or Marinho for Leonel for a more defensive left flank.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Before I go to bed, I just want to leave a few things for any still undecideds to consider. I’l be voting for myself now as I don’t think I will wake up before the match ends. Thanks to everyone for reading and considering. My team is simply a more cohesive unit than the opponents. Their play styles don’t mesh as seamlessly as my players.

Socrates

ZICO

ALEXIS

 

[Joga Bonito]

On the other hand, Gambetta can play a key role here for ONTTA. With Branco already having to deal with Alexis 1-on-1 (not an easy task at all)

Tbf, like you've stated it can go both ways with Gambetta having to deal with Joya (not an easy task by any means) with Branco for support. Whilst Sanchez offers some tracking back, Joya poses more of a threat to his FB here as a winger-cum-wing forward as opposed to Alexis who is relatively less of a threat to his FB as a relatively more of a goalscoring wing forward.

as EnigJoga's midfield is really good on the ball and can take control of the match overall, and Zito may become a key 3rd man here as well in this match.

Agreed, he simply doesn't have the industry in the middle to prevent us from having the edge on the ball with the presences of Zico and Socrates. As it stands only Cerezo in his midfield is capable of harrying players and being a pest for the opposition. Zito and Vidal would help us establish some much needed control in the engine room IMO. On the other hand, he faces ample resistance against our side with a really imposing and industrious core.

Regarding the midfield, the other thing to note is I have an extra man at the back and Montero won't always need Domingos to cover for him. Domingos was reported to have moved into midfield at times so there is that as well.

Iirc, he was more comfortable moving up field and being capable of influencing build up play, as opposed to stepping into the midfield off the ball. Would love to know more on where you got this info from.

Who's on the bench? Yeah, I know cosmetic changes aren't allowed, but IRL teams do have subs as an option.

Mujica, Veron, Sosa, Kempes, Morena, Brindisi, Aguero, Ancheta.

They can't play Veron or Kempes without subbing in Ancheta for Ruggeri iirc. Which I wouldn't (nor do I see Sosa as an improvement in this game).

Who are the subs?

Mujica for Branco too. Whilst Sosa isn't an improvement on Joya, his searing pace and goalscoring edge is definitely a valuable weapon to have off the bench against tiring legs. As too are Aguero, Kempes and Veron for that matter.

I do have 5 Pool 2 players on the pitch at the moment for the record so I do think I have options depending on the match more than them

Tbf, Careca is a straight pool 1 swap with Socrates, Julio Cesar for Montero is a bit pointless and Marinho for Andrade is counterproductive with Garrincha. You could make Marinho for Leonel swap but it makes your left wing lose quite a bit of attacking impetus, with Marinho in a fairly alien position (his initial position but not his peak) and it could free up Zanetti more, offensively. So I'd have to disagree with that claim that your extra pool 2 player on the pitch gives you more options, relative to us.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@Joga Bonito I have ignored you for this entire match. Its not fair to go 2v1 IMO even at separate moments. I didn't have the option to "tag someone else in" or double vote for myself.

If you want to discuss after the match that's fine but going 2v1 is weak IMO so I don't read anything you said in the whole thread "Ignored Member". Right when I say I go offline the second member of Tag Team comes in.

You should have selected one of you to go 1v1 against me as would have been fair otherwise your 2v1 is just unfair advantage!

Not tag each other in to cover moments you couldn't be online or I should get an assistant for the match to argue my views when I can't be online.

Its like a UFC fight with one person against two people tagging each other in.