The Americas Draft, Final: Enigma/Joga vs oneniltothearsenal

[Chesterlestreet]

VOTERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO FOLLOW THE DISCUSSION IN THE MATCH THREAD BEFORE VOTING. PLEASE NOTE THAT VOTES CANNOT BE CHANGED ONCE SUBMITTED.

TEAM ENIGMA/JOGA

Tactics and formation:
4-2-3-1 - rather modern incarnation - 4 man backline - Zito DM, Vidal in box to box role, Zizinho attacking midfielder, Erico as our complete striker and Garrincha/Joya as wide forwards.
- Normal defensive line
- Fast tempo, direct passing
- Zanetti/Branco in balanced roles - Branco slightly more attacking, Zanetti providing more defensive cover for Garrincha to do his thing.

Team Profiles:

GK: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz - one of the best keepers in the draft. Most would rank him somewhere in between Carizzo and Fillol for the top 3 spots in his position. At club level he won it all - Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cup, 3 times Uruguayan Championship and 1 time Brazilian Championship, he also is the best GK in Uruguay history winning the 1970 FIFA world cup award as a best keeper of the tournament and 1 Copa America to his name, whilst still holding the clean sheet record in the Uruguayan league. Great at organizing the defence, top reflexes and huge leap he was one of the most all rounded keepers of all time.

DL: Branco - Pretty much has the characteristics of every top Brazil full back over the years - fast, can carry the ball well, excellent technique and cross in the box and a great left peg that is always dangerous on set pieces. He's also solid defensively and vividly known for his job on one of the trickiest and fastest forwards - Overmars in the 94 WC quarter finals - where he marked him off the game, all whilst scoring a stunning FK winner on the other end of the pitch. He was first choice left back for Brazil in the late 80's, early 90's gaining 72 caps and winning 1 Copa America and the 94 WC. Notably he also was Brazil's top goal scorer on the road of a runner up finish in 1991 Copa America and integral part to the 1989 Copa side where Brazil won the title conceding just one goal in 7 games.

DR: Javier Zanetti - along with Djalma Santos, Cafu and Carlos Alberto - he's one of the best in the history of his position. Industrious, great technique and rock solid defensively especially in his later years. He's the perfect foil for Garrincha and gives him the ideal tactical platform and freedom in this game.

DC: Diego Godin - The standout defender of the last 5-6 years, he's the bedrock of Atletico's rearguard and had a significant part in breaking the Barca/Real duopoly in recent years, winning the La Liga after a great match against one of the most renowned sides in history. 2 CL finals on top of that coming against a wide range of class attackers such as Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Suarez who rank pretty high in history themselves. On top of his accomplishments Godin is a top notch defensive leader, equally adept in the air and on the deck.

DC: Oscar Ruggeri - A top tier stopper, the fiery Oscar Ruggeri was a truly colossal figure at the back with his impeccable game aerially and his indomitable physical game on the deck. Goes without saying that he wasn't 'just your average stopper' and was actually a decent player on the ball, and a match-winner in his own right - one of only 3 defenders, alongside Figueroa and Cafu, to win the South American Footballer of the Year (on account of his Copa America heroics in 1991) and the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year in 1989 to boot, whilst being the highest rated player of la liga in 1988 by Don Balón, playing for minnows Logroñés. Ruggeri will exhibit his same trademark game here which he did in the 1986 victorious WC campaign, where he was the foundation of the defense which conceded a miserly 3 goals en route to the final.

DM: Zito - one of the most accomplished players in the game. Winner of 2 WC titles, close to 20 titles in Brazil with Santos, 2 Copa Libertadores and 2 International cups, he is part of those 2 Brazil teams in 1958 and 1962(with Garrincha the other member of out team). Zito was one man engine in that team, playing alongside Didi, setting the stage for him and mopping around having the lion's share of the defensive work in that midfield. He's also very good technically, especially in his short passing game and could retain possession very well and participate in the build up. Man for the occasion as well - scored one of his three goals in the 1962 final against Czechoslovakia.

MC: Arturo Vidal - A complete midfielder who at his peak was capable of bossing any game. Known for his fierce tackling and physical style he adds more steel to our midfield, playing his favorite box to box role. At his peak he led his team goalscoring and assist charts in 12/13 season showing both his passing ability and composure in front of the goal. Successful at every level he led his national team to 2 Copa America victories, with a notable game against Argentina in the 2015 Copa final, winning the MOTM accolade. At his peak he led his team goalscoring and assist charts in 12/13 season showing both his passing ability and composure in front of the goal.
Not only a fierce warrior and competitor on the pitch, Vidal is an accomplished player on the ball capable of influencing play on the other half of the pitch significantly - during his peak years from 2010-2014, he scored 53 goals, topped the goalscoring and assists charts not once but twice for league winners Juventus and runners-up Leverkusen.

LWF: Juan Joya -Joya is one if not the best left wingers in the pool - lightening fast, top notch dribbler, excellent provider in terms of creativity and service to his partner in crime Erico in this game. Joya formed a top notch partnership with Spencer at Penarol, something he could easily replicate with Erico here. Joya/Spencer partnership won Penarol 6 league titles with 2 Copa Libertadores(twice runners up as well!) and 2 intercontinental cups beating none other but Benfica and Real Madrid - probably the two best European sides in the 60's.

RWF: Garrincha - a true phenomenon and widely regarded as the best dribbler in history. He was the driving force behind Brazil's triumph at the 1962 WC title where he won the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot. If Maradona elevated his team to the 1986 triumph so too did Garrincha after he took on the mantle of Seleção's talisman with Pele injured early on. Speed, explosiveness, trickery, incisiveness - he was a freak of nature and one of the top tier players of all time.

AM: Zizinho - Pele's childhood hero takes his place as an attacking midfielder and conductor in our side. Regarded as one of the top attacking players in Brazil's history he was pretty much a complete player. Excellent dribbler of the ball combined with vision and passing ability, who was no stranger to putting in a defensive shift in as well. Winner of the 1949 Copa and 1952 Pan American games, and also awarded the best player of the 1950 WC tournament. Zizinho is the top goalscorer of all time in the Copa America.

FC: Arsenio Erico - Considered the best Paraguayan player of all time is a complete striker - fast, great header of the ball and one of the best finishers in the game - holding the Argentinian league top scorer record. Erico was an inspiration to Argentine player Alfredo Di Stéfano , who considered him one of the greatest players ever. Other figures like Brazilian striker Leônidas da Silva and Paraguayan Delfín Benítez Cáceres also consider Erico as one of the best players in history. Argentine striker Francisco Varallo remembers Erico as a "phenomenon " that would excel in scoring headers due to his high jumps.

Why we will win:
Overpowering the flanks - Onenil is playing in a narrow formation and especially with introducing V.Andrade to the team he's losing a fair bit of the width Marinho provided on the flank. With Gambetta most likely starting on the right back and also expected to man the whole flank - most likely Alexis would be the only one providing natural width in attack. On the other hand we have two excellent flanks with Joya/Branco and Garrincha/Zanetti, that can do real damage in attack and are well balanced in defence.

Garrincha vs Andrade and Joya vs Gambetta - while as discussed in the main thread Andrade is one of the most competent defenders to face off Garrincha, he still has a tough task ahead of him facing the best right winger in the game. As good as Andrade was defensively, he has a tough task trying to contain Garrincha here, and we'd back the Brazilian to win their battle. On the other side however Joya - being the outstanding left winger in the draft has an easier task against Gambetta who has also to provide width on the right. Both flanks are clear route to goal and should offer Erico some great service in front of goal, especially with Erico having the edge over Onenil's CB duo aerially.

Midfield battle - with Cerezo and Marcos playing holding roles and Socrates and Zico in more advanced roles most of onenil threat will come centrally. We do feel we have advantage in this area as well with Zito - the best DM on the pitch and Vidal box to box can provide the support for our attackers with Zizinho also putting a shift in. With Zizinho and Vidal posing a central attacking threat and no dedicated DM in onenil side we feel onenil doesn't have the support for his CB's to counter our threat. Neither Marcos nor Cerezo are typical DM's with Cerezo more of a box to box in his peak and Marcos a CM able to put a shift in. Our central core with Vidal and Zito provides excellent support to Ruggeri/Godin while having upper hand in the midfield battle.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM ONENIL

“We played as a unit, a difficult thing in football. Some want more attention, others want less. Balancing the ego disputes is the first step to forming a great team. That's what we did in Corinthians 82, because we all used to play for an ideal, we played for a team with collectivist vision of the process. In the selection of 82, too” - Socrates

Socrates best states the ideal that I tried to capture in this draft. The very first football I ever watched on television was the 1982 World Cup as a kid. This has been great nostalgia.

This 4-2-4 formation might surprise. It was not used during the World Cup although some might say they played with 10 men anyway with Serginho. Socrates has played the false 9 role before for Brazil. In 1979 for instance he played false 9 in wins over Paraguay 6-0, Uruguay 5-1 and Ajax 5-0 under manager Claudio Coutinho. He worked well as a false 9. Socrates had a unique play style that will work well here against the specific team we are playing. Here he creates a mismatch to traditional CB since Socrates will be roaming, pulling CBs out of position. His interpretation of the false 9 would open up space not just for Zico but also Leonel and Alexis to cut inside. Its unlikely the opponents will have prepared for this formation. Our key is to unalance the opposition from the opening kick-off attacking from all angles.

Give the people what they want. Goals. The key for this set-up working is the synergy between Zico and Socrates. Even though both were classified as no.10s or trequartista or ponta de lanca, their different play styles, preferences and natural movement complement each other superbly. While both can score goals, they also bring their teammates into the game. This is why I feel the unique and unconventional Socrates works well in this role against this team. He is extremely intelligent and understands how his roaming will disrupt the defense plan of the opponents.

Andrade will be man marking Garrincha the entire match. We watched opponents try just about every other tactic to stop Garrincha and it failed. Andrade will man mark him the whole game.

We will want to keep the ball as much as possible. Keeping the ball away from the opponents is important key to our defense. They can’t threaten if we are attacking them from all angles. Garrincha is not so scary without the ball as with it. We intend to keep the ball away from him most of the match. Hopefully he gets bored and starts flirting with the girls in the crowd.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito @oneniltothearsenal

Best of luck to ye all for the final, gents.

I'm on an extremely shaky connection here, so apologies in advance if I can't be very active in the thread in the upcoming hours.

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks @Chesterlestreet for setting it up!

Good luck @oneniltothearsenal !

 

[Physiocrat]

Interesting set-up @oneniltothearsenal

I wasn't expecting that. It certainly makes in principle tactical sense but I'll have to think about it a bit more

 

[harms]

Really hard to look past E/J here, their team is pretty much perfect bar the left back (where they are facing Alexis - a great player but not really a match-winner at this stage).

 

[Enigma_87]

Interesting set up from onenil there.

We expected that he could ditch the 4-2-2-2 Brazilian square and put the two Sanchez on either wing.

In this set up onenil's team is pretty similar to ours with the exception of Zico/Socrates interchanging.

Gilberto Silva in the team is interesting pick, as it gives onenil team a proper DM, compared to the Marcos/Cerezo pair. However I feel this is the most problematic area on the pitch for him again, with the instructions to keep possession and keep us away from the ball.

Cerezo and Silva will have trouble bossing a midfield that consists of Zito, Vidal and Zizinho putting a shift in. Socrates when played with Zico usually was the more deeper AM and in 82 he was really deep in some areas of the pitch. Zico won't provide the same support Zizinho will in our side. I can see Gilberto and Cerezo really struggling to keep the pace with our midfield.

Branco IMO is a very good fit for Alexis in terms of quality so I think he'll have a good game there.

On the other side I see Joya vs Gambetta a clear route to goal with Gambetta more of an attacking full back that would struggle with the quality Joya brings to the table.

Garrincha vs Andrade is a good battle and defensively Andrade provides the biggest test to Garrincha so far, but our Brazillian wizard will have some joy on that wing as well with Leonel Sanchez, who, I don't think will provide much cover for him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Really hard to look past E/J here, their team is pretty much perfect bar the left back (where they are facing Alexis - a great player but not really a match-winner at this stage).

Thanks, mate. We thought of Marzolini possibly, but Branco is a excellent fit for Joya on that wing. He can stretch the play but also is solid defensively and would be a nice fit for Alexis. He's excellent crosser, and while not the shiniest name on the team sheet, would provide a nice service for Erico with crosses from deep into onenil's box.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Cerezo and Silva will have trouble bossing a midfield that consists of Zito, Vidal and Zizinho putting a shift in. Socrates when played with Zico usually was the more deeper AM and in 82 he was really deep in some areas of the pitch. Zico won't provide the same support Zizinho will in our side. I can see Gilberto and Cerezo really struggling to keep the pace with our midfield.

I doubt that. As you say Socrates will be the one deeper with Zico doing a False 9 in a 4-3-3'esque formation most of the game. If any, I see them having an advantage in central midfield battle.

My concern with their team is how much will they be able to capitalize and convert that to goals. I have my opinions on Alexis Sanchez at this level too.

 

[Enigma_87]

I doubt that. As you say Socrates will be the one deeper with Zico doing a False 9 in a 4-3-3'esque formation most of the game. If any, I see them having an advantage in central midfield battle.

My concern with their team is how much will they be able to capitalize and convert that to goals. I have my opinions on Alexis Sanchez at this level too.

Nah, It's the other way around mate:

Socrates has played the false 9 role before for Brazil. In 1979 for instance he played false 9 in wins over Paraguay 6-0, Uruguay 5-1 and Ajax 5-0 under manager Claudio Coutinho. He worked well as a false 9. Socrates had a unique play style that will work well here against the specific team we are playing. Here he creates a mismatch to traditional CB since Socrates will be roaming, pulling CBs out of position. His interpretation of the false 9 would open up space not just for Zico but also Leonel and Alexis to cut inside. Its unlikely the opponents will have prepared for this formation. Our key is to unalance the opposition from the opening kick-off attacking from all angles.

It's Socrates playing the false 9, not Zico.

 

[harms]

Nah, It's the other way around mate:



It's Socrates playing the false 9, not Zico.

I believe that it's completely unimportant who is nominally the false 9 and who is the number 10 here though, they will interchange constantly and both will provide some defensive cover.

But when we talk about the MF battle, Zizinho edges them in terms of a defensive output and both Zito and Vidal are significantly better defensively than their opponents.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It's Socrates playing the false 9, not Zico.

Socrates is still the one dropping deeper into midfield not Zico, hence the way I used the arrows in my formation.

Its exactly how Socrates played as a false 9. Position was sort of just a formality for Socrates as he roamed all over no matter what nominal position he was assigned. It operates much like a late 1970s Brazilian 424. This is a formation that Socrates and Zico both know. The ponta de lanca (no.10) is the spearhead of the attack. They just start deeper and the false 9 creates space. But Socrates interpretation of a false 9 means he will drop deeper and participate in midfield more than Zico.

Socrates is a better fit for the false 9 against your team than Careca. Careca moved around a lot but never dropped all that deep or assisted in midfield. Ruggeri and Godin would have been perfect to contain Careca but they are extremely ill suited to contain Socrates as false 9.

This how I see them combining:



Socrates is one of the most difficult players all time to win the ball from. Zito and your CBs are going to have an almost impossible task chasing him around the pitch. They will open up acres of space while they do.

Additionally I don't see the advantage you used to having on the flanks this match. Leonel is there is push Zanetti back, not allowing him to advance to support Garrincha or move centrally to support the center backs. He could have done this if I ran a narrow formation with Alexis on the right.

The other flank I will gain far more joy. Alexis will punish Branco when he moves up and Alexis will track the feck out of Branco all match. Branco was more attacking and less physical than Marinho even so Alexis is the type of forward he will not relish facing. I definitely fancy Alexis to get the better of Branco more than Joya doing that to Gambetta.

Also Domingos, the best defender on the pitch, is there to cover. Not worried about that flank in the least.

 

[Enigma_87]

I believe that it's completely unimportant who is nominally the false 9 and who is the number 10 here though, they will interchange constantly and both will provide some defensive cover.

But when we talk about the MF battle, Zizinho edges them in terms of a defensive output and both Zito and Vidal are significantly better defensively than their opponents.

Agree on both accounts. Just pointing it out as I thought that it was odd. Socrates usually was in the deep role, while Zico was up the pitch. Would make more sense Zico to provide openings rather than Socrates, but as you said it's probably a nitpicking at this stage.

In terms of work rate Zizinho edges them both and as you said the best defensive midfielder on the pitch is Zito, while Vidal is better in this aspect than Cerezo.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Agree on both accounts. Just pointing it out as I thought that it was odd. Socrates usually was in the deep role, while Zico was up the pitch. Would make more sense Zico to provide openings rather than Socrates, but as you said it's probably a nitpicking at this stage.

In terms of work rate Zizinho edges them both and as you said the best defensive midfielder on the pitch is Zito, while Vidal is better in this aspect than Cerezo.

I already said in my first post exactly why I put Socrates as false 9 in the formation. It could have gone either way but since Socrates actually has played this exact false 9 role even wearing the no.9 for Brazil in 1979 I thought it appropriate to represent the formation that way. Its well known how much Socrates roams.

As good as Zito is, he's not really well suited to defending against either Zico or Socrates who have made fools of some of the best defenders and holding midfielders in history.

Also you severely underrate Alexis Sanchez. Juan Joya's achievements were just about entirely in a Uruguayan league that offered Penarol no competition. Their team in Joya's era looks the equivalent of playing PSG in the Belgium league. Whereas Alexis goal scoring record is against a much higher level of competition than Joya's ever was.

Don't get things twisted, I love older players as my draft should make abundantly clear. But there is no way whatsoever that Alexis is not suited to this level but Joya is. That is just absurd for someone who won the Copa America beating a mroe fancied Argentina two years in a row. And who won the Best Player in Tournament over Messi!!!!!

and he is not suited but Joya is!?!? C'mon now, that is big exaggeration, mate.

 

[Gio]

The other flank I will gain far more joy. Alexis will punish Branco when he moves up and Alexis will track the feck out of Branco all match. Branco was more attacking and less physical than Marinho even so Alexis is the type of forward he will not relish facing. I definitely fancy Alexis to get the better of Branco more than Joya doing that to Gambetta.

Also Domingos, the best defender on the pitch, is there to cover. Not worried about that flank in the least.

I tend to agree with you there on Alexis/Branco. Not that I'm elevating Sanchez beyond his level, but more about his acceleration and ability to get in behind and inside the left-back will cause Branco some problems. Especially with the through ball potential of Zico and Socrates. And he does have the engine to track back - which is important because Branco has lots to offer going forward with that wondrous left peg of his.

 

[Enigma_87]

Socrates is still the one dropping deeper into midfield not Zico, hence the way I used the arrows in my formation.

Its exactly how Socrates played as a false 9. Position was sort of just a formality for Socrates as he roamed all over no matter what nominal position he was assigned. It operates much like a late 1970s Brazilian 424. This is a formation that Socrates and Zico both know. The ponta de lanca (no.10) is the spearhead of the attack. They just start deeper and the false 9 creates space. But Socrates interpretation of a false 9 means he will drop deeper and participate in midfield more than Zico.

Socrates is a better fit for the false 9 against your team than Careca. Careca moved around a lot but never dropped all that deep or assisted in midfield. Ruggeri and Godin would have been perfect to contain Careca but they are extremely ill suited to contain Socrates as false 9.

This how I see them combining:

While I see you reasoning behind it and Careca being a good fit for our CB duo, still having a target to play off IMO is better in terms of purely engaging one of our central defenders and leaving space for Zico/Socrates. For me the best approach was sacrificing Socrates in this game.

Socrates will give you support to midfield, but he lacks explosiveness and stamina to cover that much ground he's expected and the provide the support your midfield needs, especially if it is to regain possession and control the game. Socrates was a smoker and while he was positionally and tactically smart player, he will have a tough task in this game. Zizinho will provide plenty of cover in this game to our midfield pair who are better defensively.

I don't see that cross being a success with the presence of Godin and Ruggeri in the box

Socrates is one of the most difficult players all time to win the ball from. Zito and your CBs are going to have an almost impossible task chasing him around the pitch. They will open up acres of space while they do.

Additionally I don't see the advantage you used to having on the flanks this match. Leonel is there is push Zanetti back, not allowing him to advance to support Garrincha or move centrally to support the center backs. He could have done this if I ran a narrow formation with Alexis on the right.

The other flank I will gain far more joy. Alexis will punish Branco when he moves up and Alexis will track the feck out of Branco all match. Branco was more attacking and less physical than Marinho even so Alexis is the type of forward he will not relish facing. I definitely fancy Alexis to get the better of Branco more than Joya doing that to Gambetta.

Also Domingos, the best defender on the pitch, is there to cover. Not worried about that flank in the least.

Socrates is not one of the fastest and explosive players so Zito/Vidal are excellent fit for him defensively. Zanetti is a good fit for Leonel Sanchez. I don't see your team having an advantage from that side.

As for Marinho / Branco - it's the other way around. Marinho is the more attacking one, the more technical one but worse defensively. Branso is also the fitter of the both in terms of physique.

Branco held his own against a faster and trickier winger in Overmars in that 94 world cup and was a starting LB for a Brazilian team that won the Copa conceding only one goal on the road to the title.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I doubt that. As you say Socrates will be the one deeper with Zico doing a False 9 in a 4-3-3'esque formation most of the game. If any, I see them having an advantage in central midfield battle.

My concern with their team is how much will they be able to capitalize and convert that to goals. I have my opinions on Alexis Sanchez at this level too.

I am happy your comment is not about my lack of width

But we won't really have problem scoring goals.

Zico had 333 goals in 435 matches at the Maracana.

Socrates had 172 in 297 for Corinthians.

Leonel Sanchez was a top scorer in a World Cup including a screamer against Lev Yashin.

Alexis scored many goals in the biggest matches for club and country.

Even Cerezo has scored key goals in crucial matches.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Also you severely underrate Alexis Sanchez. Juan Joya's achievements were just about entirely in a Uruguayan league that offered Penarol no competition. Their team in Joya's era looks the equivalent of playing PSG in the Belgium league.

While I like that you're standing up for Alexis (there's clearly a danger of him being regarded as more underwhelming than he should be because he's a contemporary player whose legacy is still a work in progress), one has to point out here that Joya was part of two Libertadores winning vintages - and that both those vintages won the subsequent Intercontinental cups (very comfortably at that) against Benfica and Real Madrid respectively.

In other words, that ain't PSG territory - nowhere near it.

 

[Enigma_87]

I already said in my first post exactly why I put Socrates as false 9 in the formation. It could have gone either way but since Socrates actually has played this exact false 9 role even wearing the no.9 for Brazil in 1979 I thought it appropriate to represent the formation that way. Its well known how much Socrates roams.

As good as Zito is, he's not really well suited to defending against either Zico or Socrates who have made fools of some of the best defenders and holding midfielders in history.

Also you severely underrate Alexis Sanchez. Juan Joya's achievements were just about entirely in a Uruguayan league that offered Penarol no competition. Their team in Joya's era looks the equivalent of playing PSG in the Belgium league. Whereas Alexis goal scoring record is against a much higher level of competition than Joya's ever was.

Don't get things twisted, I love older players as my draft should make abundantly clear. But there is no way whatsoever that Alexis is not suited to this level but Joya is. That is just absurd for someone who won the Copa America beating a mroe fancied Argentina two years in a row. And who won the Best Player in Tournament over Messi!!!!!

and he is not suited but Joya is!?!? C'mon now, that is big exaggeration, mate.

I think you are overrating Alexis and underrating Zito.

Alexis as good as he is is no Joya, who is one of the best left wingers in the game. His partnership with Spencer made Penarol one of the most dominant sides in the 60's with 2 Copa libertadores, 2 Intercontinental cups and 6 domestic titles.

Joya stood out in 61 against Benfica where he scored 2 goals and provided another 3 assists against probably the best European side at the time featuring Eusebio, Coluna, Jose Augusto and Antonio Simoes - the latter starred in the Portugal team that finished 3rd in 1966 WC.

On the other hand Zito was part of the other most dominant SA side during that time - Pele's Santos, winning over 20 titles domestically and internationally along with 2 WC where he was part of the team of the tournament in 1962.

Juan Joya's side that had "no competition", also beat Pele's Santos in 1965 in the SF of Copa Libertadores over three games and Real Madrid in 1966 with Amancio, Gento, Pirri, etc in the team.

The 60's were golden for the South American football. I think you are really underrating some of the great players it produced during that time.

 

[harms]

Also you severely underrate Alexis Sanchez. Juan Joya's achievements were just about entirely in a Uruguayan league that offered Penarol no competition. Their team in Joya's era looks the equivalent of playing PSG in the Belgium league. Whereas Alexis goal scoring record is against a much higher level of competition than Joya's ever was.

Alexis needs to be the focal point of the team and the player to build a side around - like he is now at Arsenal or like he was at Udinese, or even for Chile. Here he is shoehorned on the right to make place for the real stars that you have centrally, and he won't be as good as he can be. He has the workrate and mentality to be very useful here, but I don't think that he'll shine here.

Here he is closer to the Barca version of him - a hardworking and clearly talented attacking player who sacrifices a lot of his game though

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I think Alexis vs Joya is even. I say that after going through a lot of material on Joya recently. I see nothing that propels him ahead of Alexis, other than time passed.

 

[Enigma_87]

I tend to agree with you there on Alexis/Branco. Not that I'm elevating Sanchez beyond his level, but more about his acceleration and ability to get in behind and inside the left-back will cause Branco some problems. Especially with the through ball potential of Zico and Socrates. And he does have the engine to track back - which is important because Branco has lots to offer going forward with that wondrous left peg of his.

I think Branco is good fit for Alexis personally. Branco at his peak is also pretty fast left back with solid defensive credentials. I agree that Alexis will track back so in that sense he's a good fit on the right(although I personally prefer him on the left or centrally), but still Branco is a good fit for him defensively as well.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

While I see you reasoning behind it and Careca being a good fit for our CB duo, still having a target to play off IMO is better in terms of purely engaging one of our central defenders and leaving space for Zico/Socrates. For me the best approach was sacrificing Socrates in this game.

I completely agree that the best approach to benefit you would have been sacrificing the only proven legendary combination play on the pitch of Zico and Socrates

Socrates will give you support to midfield, but he lacks explosiveness and stamina to cover that much ground he's expected and the provide the support your midfield needs, especially if it is to regain possession and control the game. Socrates was a smoker and while he was positionally and tactically smart player, he will have a tough task in this game. Zizinho will provide plenty of cover in this game to our midfield pair who are better defensively.


Socrates is not one of the fastest and explosive players so Zito/Vidal are excellent fit for him defensively.

Thanks for bringing this up. We are talking players in their peak.

"So once Telê took charge of the selection, in February 1980, he instructed (physical trainer Gilberto) Tim to make a work plan to put Socrates at gunpoint. His admiration for the playmaker was not just recognition of his genius in the field. He also was impressed with the leadership, in which was necessary before the likes of Zico, Falcao and Junior...

He decided to shine in his first World Cup, Magrão [affectionate nickname for Socrates loosely "skinny man"] began still in Corinthians to fulfill the program that Tim began as the trainer of the club, Hélio Maffia. Socrates gained muscle mass, strength and resistance. The great goal he did in the win against Internacional, by 2-0, in the Beira-Rio in Porto Alegre, the Brazilian Championship Gold Cup, served as emphatic proof. After Casagrande opened the scoring, the Doctor left with the ball, dominated before the line midfield, easily passed by Mauro Galvão and Müller and shot with precision the goalkeeper corner. An explosion he used to not have before.

To reach that level, it was necessary Socrates buy the idea of Tele and Gilberto Tim...In addition to devote to training as he had never done, Dr. drastically reduced the amount of beer and cigarettes. Something recognized even by their own colleagues, as reported Júnior." -from Socrates & Casagrande

So contrary to mistaken rumors, Socrates actually did have a peak where he was quite explosive and possessed plenty of stamina.

If Zico and Socrates can do this, there is plenty of explosiveness

 

[Enigma_87]

I think Alexis vs Joya is even. I say that after going through a lot of material on Joya recently. I see nothing that propels him ahead of Alexis, other than time passed.

Juan Joya was unanimously regarded as the best left winger in the 60's and one of the best of all time. Here's a poll done by Chilean El Grafico of the best team of the 60's by positions:

Keeper
1. Ladislao Mazurkiewicz (URU)
2. Amadeo Carrizo (ARG)
3. Gilmar (BRA)

Right Back
1. Carlos Alberto (BRA)
2. Luis Eyzaguirre (CHI)
3. Djalma Santos (BRA)

Right Centreback
1. Roberto Perfumo (ARG)
2. Mauro Ramos (BRA)
3. Elías Figueroa (CHI)

Left Centreback
1. Federico Sacchi (ARG)
2. Héctor Chumpitaz (PER)
3. Orlando (BRA)

Left Back
1. Nílton Santos (BRA)
2. Silvio Marzolini (ARG)
3. Ricardo Pavoni (URU)

Defensive Mid
1. Antonio Rattín (ARG)
2. Clodoaldo (BRA)
3. Víctor Benítez (PER)

Offensive Mid
1. Gérson (BRA)
2. Ademir (da Guia) (BRA)
3. Dino Sani (BRA)

Right Winger
1. Garrincha (BRA)
2. Jairzinho (BRA)
3. Luis Cubilla (URU)

Striker
1. Alberto Spencer (ECU)
2. Luis Artime (ARG)
3. Pedro Pablo León (PER)

Second Striker
1. Pelé (BRA)
2. Omar Sívori (ARG)
3. José Sanfilippo (ARG)

Left Winger
1. Juan Joya (PER)
2. Pepe (BRA)
3. Leonel Sánchez (CHI)


It's unfortunately to have so little footage of him, but his role in the game against Benfica especially IMO is a level above what Sanchez has done so far in his career. He was pivotal against one of the best European teams in the game.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It's unfortunately to have so little footage of him, but his role in the game against Benfica especially IMO is a level above what Sanchez has done so far in his career. He was pivotal against one of the best European teams in the game.

This is just silly. Its an opinion poll so should be taken with a grain of salt. Its just absurd to suggest that Joya is on some higher tier than either Sanchez based on an objective look at achievements in context that are actually available. A few people somewhere thought Joya was a little bit better than Leonel Sanchez in the 1960s. That does not count as anything remotely close to objective proof that Joya is on a "level above". This is just overrating your own players which is cool and all but I am not going back and forth on this. Its obvious Alexis has more impressive team and personal achievements than Joya. Leonel (top scorer at a world cup) is not really on a lower level than Joya either if you subjective rate Joya a bit higher yourself. Putting him an entire level above is just big upping your own player beyond objectiveness.

 

[Enigma_87]

I completely agree that the best approach to benefit you would have been sacrificing the only proven legendary combination play on the pitch of Zico and Socrates



Thanks for bringing this up. We are talking players in their peak.

"So once Telê took charge of the selection, in February 1980, he instructed (physical trainer Gilberto) Tim to make a work plan to put Socrates at gunpoint. His admiration for the playmaker was not just recognition of his genius in the field. He also was impressed with the leadership, in which was necessary before the likes of Zico, Falcao and Junior...

He decided to shine in his first World Cup, Magrão [affectionate nickname for Socrates loosely "skinny man"] began still in Corinthians to fulfill the program that Tim began as the trainer of the club, Hélio Maffia. Socrates gained muscle mass, strength and resistance. The great goal he did in the win against Internacional, by 2-0, in the Beira-Rio in Porto Alegre, the Brazilian Championship Gold Cup, served as emphatic proof. After Casagrande opened the scoring, the Doctor left with the ball, dominated before the line midfield, easily passed by Mauro Galvão and Müller and shot with precision the goalkeeper corner. An explosion he used to not have before.

To reach that level, it was necessary Socrates buy the idea of Tele and Gilberto Tim...In addition to devote to training as he had never done, Dr. drastically reduced the amount of beer and cigarettes. Something recognized even by their own colleagues, as reported Júnior." -from Socrates & Casagrande

So contrary to mistaken rumors, Socrates actually did have a peak where he was quite explosive and possessed plenty of stamina.

If Zico and Socrates can do this, there is plenty of explosiveness

It's nice example but not very worthwhile in this game. Italy sit deep in that game and you can see Serginho occupying a defender in the box as well, something you don't have centrally here as a threat.

So contrary to mistaken rumors, Socrates actually did have a peak where he was quite explosive and possessed plenty of stamina.

That's no mistaken rumors - all 1982 games are on youtube. Socrates dis have stamina, but quite explosive and plenty of it is a stretch. He moved all round the pitch but by no means explosively nor he made sprints regularly. When he made one he needed some time in the next minutes to regain some energy and was a bit of a passenger, relying on the rest of the side to retain the ball and win it back.

Again I'm not saying he's a passenger defensively and moved a lot, but you are stretching it a lot IMO.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Again I'm not saying he's a passenger defensively and moved a lot, but you are stretching it a lot IMO.

I linked the clip specifically to show explosiveness which there is enough of there. And if I am "stretching it" with Socrates you are going all the way elastic on Joya being a "level above" Alexis so fair is fair mate

 

[Enigma_87]

This is just silly. Its an opinion poll so should be taken with a grain of salt. Its just absurd to suggest that Joya is on some higher tier than either Sanchez based on an objective look at achievements in context that are actually available. A few people somewhere thought Joya was a little bit better than Leonel Sanchez in the 1960s. That does not count as anything remotely close to objective proof that Joya is on a "level above". This is just overrating your own players which is cool and all but I am not going back and forth on this. Its obvious Alexis has more impressive team and personal achievements than Joya. Leonel (top scorer at a world cup) is not really on a lower level than Joya either if you subjective rate Joya a bit higher yourself. Putting him an entire level above is just big upping your own player beyond objectiveness.

It's up for argument of course but for me Joya is a level above Alexis from what I know and seen of both. We might agree to disagree there, but if we take club accolades how is Leonel Sanchez being ahead of Joya in terms of team achievements?

 

[Enigma_87]

I linked the clip specifically to show explosiveness which there is enough of there. And if I am "stretching it" with Socrates you are going all the way elastic on Joya being a "level above" Alexis so fair is fair mate

That clip is a great goal, but it doesn't show Socrates regularly doing that throughout the game, which is the case I've brought.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

That clip is a great goal, but it doesn't show Socrates regularly doing that throughout the game, which is the case I've brought.

And you have zero evidence showing Joya doing anything "regularly". You are basically just referring to one or two games and making all kinds of assumptions when most of Joya's career and stats come from playing against extremely weak opposition.

As long as you are over-exaggerating Joya as a "level above" Alexis which is just patently ridiculous, I will big up my players the same degree.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

@Enigma_87 it's the Duncan Edwards effect. I can't ever rate Edwards because there isn't enough material around to rate him on. You have to go solely with recollections. That's fine and all, but as a matter of preference, unless the player has some kind of insanely storied history, I'll go with the one I know every time. A few games and a few clips isn't enough to convince me Joya is better than Alexis.

I feel that is a very small part of the game though. Neither of those two players are the best attackers on either side.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 it's the Duncan Edwards effect. I can't ever rate Edwards because there isn't enough material around to rate him on. You have to go solely with recollections. That's fine and all, but as a matter of preference, unless the player has some kind of insanely storied history, I'll go with the one I know every time. A few games and a few clips isn't enough to convince me Joya is better than Alexis.

I feel that is a very small part of the game though. Neither of those two players are the best attackers on either side.

That's fair enough mate. I can see where you are coming from.

And you have zero evidence showing Joya doing anything "regularly". You are basically just referring to one or two games and making all kinds of assumptions when most of Joya's career and stats come from playing against extremely weak opposition.

As long as you are over-exaggerating Joya as a "level above" Alexis which is just patently ridiculous, I will big up my players the same degree.

I've provided examples of Joya of games that are on youtube and you can see them as they are available as a highlights.

Socrates playing style during the course of a game is completely another matter - as well as his stamina.

I find it a bit rich underrating Joya achievements when you have Leonel Sanchez in your side.

I'll quote a good @antohan piece on Joya for the decades draft

It’s 1959 and Peñarol (founded as the Central Uruguay Railway Cricket Club) are on course to the third of five consecutive national championship wins. Following the introduction of the European Cup, the club has successfully pushed for the creation of the South American equivalent: the Copa Libertadores.

Also following a certain European example, the club decides to amass the best players from elsewhere in the continent and sign CENSORED (Eusebio his more than able deputy), which delivers the first Libertadores Cup. Real Madrid still trounce them in the Madrid leg of the Intercontinental Cup after a draw in Montevideo.

So Peñarol go further the next year and sign a world class partner for him: JUAN JOYA. The Joya-CENSORED (i.e. Eusebio) tandem went from strength to strength over eight years and went on to deliver:

• 6 league titles,
• two Libertadores Cup wins,
• two Libertadores runners-up (would have been 4 wins with GD or away goals settling things instead of a third game )
• two Intercontinental Cup wins (against Benfica in 1961 and Real Madrid in 1966)
• the 1969 Intercontinental Cup Supercup (a tournament for all former Intercontinental winners i.e. “the 60s Super Cup”)

It’s largely down to that decade that the statsmen at IFFHS worked out Peñarol was the best South American club of the 20th Century. I’d say that Peñarol side was right up there with Pelé’s Santos one, and both light-years ahead of any other the continent has produced.

Despite repeated approaches by the Uruguayan FA, neither Joya nor CENSORED accepted the invitation to play for the national team, or else the 1966 World Cup would have quite probably gone elsewhere. Instead, they both joined Ryan Giggs in the pantheon of football greats who never set foot on the world’s biggest stage.

Their destinies remained interlinked all the way to their deaths. Ironically, Joya dies a year after CENSORED, just like he joined Peñarol a year later. Despite having stayed loyal to their countries, they were mourned in Uruguay even more than in Peru and Ecuador – to the point their families decided to bury them in Montevideo, with all expenses paid by the club. A Carnival song dedicated to them went on to top the Uruguayan charts almost 40 years after they had last kicked a ball.

Damn Garrincha for not letting me reunite them again, but he’ll make up for it

Eusebio knows the big boots he is being asked to fill after seeing his Benfica side concede seven goals to Peñarol over two games. He is aware much of that (two goals + three assists) came from the man on his left wing, so he is feeling confident about living up to it with him and the Canhotinho de Ouro to rely on.

So is Carlos Alberto, the man who had some epic duels with Joya in those classic Peñarol-Santos encounters.

Some apeman was going to sit on the bench with a big bucket of water bottles just so people realise them old wingers would go for 100M+ today. I opted for Schweinsteiger as no one whose name doesn't start with R will start ahead of Joya in my side. And Best, of course.

it's not a proper SA draft game without a quote from anto

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

That's fair enough mate. I can see where you are coming from.
I've provided examples of Joya of games that are on youtube and you can see them as they are available as a highlights.

Socrates playing style during the course of a game is completely another matter - as well as his stamina.

As my quote shows, Socrates worked on his stamina, it was never an issue for him playing really. It wasn't even part of his game to always be running but rather roaming. He doesn't need a Vidal type engine to fulfill his role. We have to assume a non-smoking Socrates here otherwise there is literally no reason to play older players with newer ones. I mean should we assume Garrincha showed up to the game drunk and horny for girls?

I am not underrating anyone. I am pointing out that you claiming Joya is a whole "level above" is overrating. And Leonel has pretty close to the same level of achievements as Joya except Leonel was co-leading scorer at a World Cup. So even if you honestly rate Joya as better, its not really fair to claim he is a 'level above'.

 

[Enigma_87]

As my quote shows, Socrates worked on his stamina, it was never an issue for him playing really. It wasn't even part of his game to always be running but rather roaming. He doesn't need a Vidal type engine to fulfill his role. We have to assume a non-smoking Socrates here otherwise there is literally no reason to play older players with newer ones. I mean should we assume Garrincha showed up to the game drunk and horny for girls?

I think you are missing the point. Cerezo/Gilberto Silva alone will not control the game against Vidal and Zito. They need significant help and Socrates doesn't have bigger engine than Zizinho to tilt it in your favor. You need another midfielder with pretty high work rate to balance out the advantage we have with Vidal/Zito defensively, and not only you don't but Zizinho is most likely to put a bigger shift to help out the midfield than either Zico or Socrates.

To put it in perspective - Zito almost single handedly did the defensive work in midfield in 2 WC winning teams, providing the stage for Didi to shine. He was also vital in one of the most successful club teams in history.

Vidal held his own against one of the finest midfielders in todays game and also being the top scorer and assist maker in that Juve team at his peak.

We're not sitting back - on the contrary we'll give your midfield a run out and we have the quality defensively and offensively to back it up.

I am not underrating anyone. I am pointing out that you claiming Joya is a whole "level above" is overrating. And Leonel has pretty close to the same level of achievements as Joya except Leonel was co-leading scorer at a World Cup. So even if you honestly rate Joya as better, its not really fair to claim he is a 'level above'.

Leonel's team achievements are nowhere near close to Joya's.

As I've said for me Joya is better than Sanchez, but again it's up for a debate and personal view, so let's agree to disagree there

I'll let Joga share his thoughts on the game and watch it from the stands for a bit

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I think you are missing the point. Cerezo/Gilberto Silva alone will not control the game against Vidal and Zito. They need significant help and Socrates doesn't have bigger engine than Zizinho to tilt it in your favor. You need another midfielder with pretty high work rate to balance out the advantage we have with Vidal/Zito defensively, and not only you don't but Zizinho is most likely to put a bigger shift to help out the midfield than either Zico or Socrates.

These are the types of arguments that fascinate about draft games. I understand your perspective but I don't see the game playing like this. The way I see it Ruggeri and Godin have no chance of stopping or even disrupting Zico and Socrates in my set-up.

You have to drag Zito back to assist your back two. This is why I played two wide forwards so your fullbacks won't be much help in the center. This weakens you in midfield because you need really Zito to help out. Ruggeri and Godin can't go 2v2 with Zico and Socrates. They would be better suited to stopping Careca IMO. But my movement in that zone means Ruggeri and Godin would have to either track the roaming or they will end up leaving space in front that any of my front 4 could exploit.

Zico and Socrates offer a different kind of unpredictable attack that changes tempo and angle. With Zico's play style and Socrates' ball retention I can see you giving up free kicks. And Socrates can hit from long range like this against Dasaev in open play so we are good with space.

 

[antohan]

That's a very good side @oneniltothearsenal put out there. Without much of an idea on squads/options, I had mixed feelings about him picking Andrade. It felt like he was cutting the nose to spite the face (strengthen to try quell Garrincha but entirely give up on the much-needed width Marinho offered going forward). Marcos was the one screaming UPGRADE FOR A DM out there.

Leonel Sanchez is a good call (the only one in that UChi bunch I rate), Gilberto really helps shore up that midfield and Alexis at the other end makes sense as neither of his fullbacks could be expected to have much freedom. It's a good 4-2-4. It's a formation out of fashion but it's spot on here and in Socrates has the right man to help that 2 hold water and transition. It will be a harder sell than the rival's 4-2-3-1, but it's absolutely the right approach to this game.

Won't comment on the absurd claims on Joya and PSG playing in Belgium. I am inclined to agree though that there's nothing wrong with Alexis here. I wouldn't compare them like @Mciahel Goodman because they are very different style-wise and I'd choose either over the other subject to setup. I think both suit their respective setups and minders better, wouldn't swap them if I were either manager.

I have a feeling @Joga Bonito and @Enigma_87 somewhat overrate their own midfield. As I mentioned before, I liked it better with Verón, it was far more balanced and not as dependent on Zizinho having a great game. Here Gilberto-Cerezo could really constrain him, and their attack needs service. With Verón you just play through him instead, but Vidal? It's an issue, and I could see Mané chatting up the ladies on the sidelines more than I can see him going deep for self-service errands.

It would be a great game to watch, but I wouldn't fall for the usual "lots of goals, who will outscore who?", both CB pairs are immense. Joga/Enigma have the better overall backline (inc. keeper), which will help them no end as I can see OneNil having more possession, fluidity and playing/moving across that backline looking for an opening (that's where Sánchez is a great fit for his side to be fair). The big question here is how quickly and effectively Joga/Enigma can turn defence into attack (which is where you would rather Joya than Alexis).

Whoever scores first probably wins it TBH.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I wouldn't compare them like @Mciahel Goodman because they are very different style-wise and I'd choose either over the other subject to setup. I think both suit their respective setups and minders better, wouldn't swap them if I were either manager.

To be fair, my comparison was based solely on the underrating/overrating of each player by both managers.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Taking over Enigma for the time being.

I have my opinions on Alexis Sanchez at this level too.

Alexis - a great player but not really a match-winner at this stage).

Agreed, Branco could have been improved upon but onenil's hardly poised to take advantage of that with the least impressive forward on the pitch in Alexis. I'd back Joya against Gambetta as opposed to Alexis against Branco anyday, esp with the former being more of a 'one-way' goalscoring in-cutting wing-forward whilst Joya is more of an all-rounded winger cum wing-forward who can go either way of the full-back.

I doubt that. As you say Socrates will be the one deeper with Zico doing a False 9 in a 4-3-3'esque formation most of the game. If any, I see them having an advantage in central midfield battle.

Yeah. they have some nice players on the ball who can link-up well in the middle, but we have an imposing core in Ruggeri-Godin-Zito-Vidal-Zizinho which squares up against it well. Godin has played against some of the more nifty forwards that this era has had to offer and he was always at ease playing against these silky South American forwards, likewise Zito is one of the greatest DMs in this pool and the best central midfielder on the pitch. A leader who was part of the arguably the greatest Brazilian side of all time winning two WCs, scoring the 'winner' in 1962 and he was the midfield general and captain of one of the greatest, if not the best, South American sides in Santos making over 700 appearances for them.

a rock on which the team revolved

In 58 and 62 we had Zito, who was one of the true leaders of that team. He was the captain of Pele’s Santos. I

Zito was a natural leader; he didn’t have to “push” it! He was nice and fair and treated everybody equally. He would fight for every player: from Pelé to the weakest one! I was very fortunate to start my career with someone like Zito at my side. I could learn a lot. I remember especially about when the Campeonato Paulista started in 1967 (my first one); I was playing in midfield with Zito. He was wearing the #5 jersey he had always worn and I had the #8. He was the captain but one day, during a training session at Vila Belmiro, he came to me and gave me the #5 jersey…and 14 years then passed by with the #5 on my back!

Also you severely underrate Alexis Sanchez. Juan Joya's achievements were just about entirely in a Uruguayan league that offered Penarol no competition. Their team in Joya's era looks the equivalent of playing PSG in the Belgium league. Whereas Alexis goal scoring record is against a much higher level of competition than Joya's ever was.

Don't get things twisted, I love older players as my draft should make abundantly clear. But there is no way whatsoever that Alexis is not suited to this level but Joya is. That is just absurd for someone who won the Copa America beating a mroe fancied Argentina two years in a row. And who won the Best Player in Tournament over Messi!!!!!

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

As good as Zito is, he's not really well suited to defending against either Zico or Socrates who have made fools of some of the best defenders and holding midfielders in history.

I'm not going to go over the board and claim Zito's going to shut down both of them here, but given the respective set-ups (one with Vidal and Zizinho accompanying him; and the other with Cerezo in a B2B role with Socrates and Zico contributing zilch), I'd know which midfield is going to be more resolute and is going to do a better job defensively. If Zito is having a tough time against Zico, then imagine poor Gilberto Silva, the weakest player on the pitch, against Zizinho with much less midfield support off the ball, to boot.

 

[antohan]

To be fair, my comparison was based solely on the underrating/overrating of each player by both managers.

Sure, I got your point and agree that both have a fair shout at being in a SAM final. I was just adding that caveat because when saying X is better than Y (or worse, or equal) the point of how X and Y are being used is hugely relevant, particularly when they are rather different players. You could say a lot of SAM midfielders are better than Gilberto, for example, but he doesn't look out of place to me given what is being asked of him.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Sure, I got your point and agree that both have a fair shout at being in a SAM final. I was just adding that caveat because when saying X is better than Y (or worse, or equal) the point of how X and Y are being used is hugely relevant, particularly when they are rather different players. You could say a lot of SAM midfielders are better than Gilberto, for example, but he doesn't look out of place to me given what is being asked of him.

True, context is definitely paramount and you could argue that neither looks out of place in their required system.