The 4th Sheep Draft | Final | onenil vs Downcast

[Pat_Mustard]

To counter @Downcast's points I will raise this issue.

His attackers are more individualistic and defenders are are more individual man marking assignments.

This provides me an advantage in attacking as a unit. My attackers naturally will shift positions, offer fluidity and and cause all sorts of movement problems for individual man markers. This has a greater chance of unbalancing the defense than the more individualistic attackers against a defense that is great at marking but also being marshaled as a unit by leaders like Varela and Figueroa.

I also have proven combinations throughout. Andrade-Varela, Didi-Djalma, Rivaldo-Ronaldo while it is not certain players like Platini-Garrincha get the most out of each other.

Aye, I'm not entirely sold on the Maldini/Camacho pure man-marking details given the sheer number of different match winners in your attack, and their ability to interchange positions. If Rivaldo drops deep enough or moves central enough, for example, its better for Camacho to pass him over to a teammate at some point rather than chasing him all over the pitch and compromising the defensive shape. That said, you maybe lack the attacking full backs to exploit that to the full. And you also missed out Garrincha-Pele in your proven combinations list

 

[Ecstatic]

I always liked Didi's (or at least I think it was him) story about him trying to make Garrincha less individualistic. He shouted at him every time he should've passed or crossed, but Garrincha held on to the ball, toying with the defender - and after another take on he finally made an inch-perfect cross to an unmarked Didi. Which made Didi realize that Garrincha wasn't only showing off (although he obviously was doing that too), but he also waited for the perfect moment when his target would be unmarked. After that he never criticized him. I'm telling this by memory, so it may not be entirely accurate, but still.

In a way it's the same paradoxically "pragmatic" approach that Bergkamp had - like his turn against Newcastle that, by his admission, was just the most simple and efficient way of beating the opponent/getting the ball into the net.

Point being - while he won't provide as many crosses as a lesser but more disciplined winger would've, the quality and the timing of his crosses will probably make up for it. And while Cristiano is often underappreciated in an all-time context, with Platini and Garrincha here I can see him deciding the game, especially while his and Garrincha's ego wouldn't clash but instead would complete each other.

I agree.

Cr7 - and more generally the contemporary player - tends to be underappreciated.

There is a Cr7 paradox: a big ego who likes to run the show but his team spirit is generally overlooked.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

What an unbelievably tough decision but had to go with onenil in the end. Maradona messi Ronaldo are probably my 3 favourite players to watch hours of footage of, and the rest of the side is worth it's place in any final.

@Downcast i don't think you could have done anything differently, excellent side

 

[Ecstatic]

What an unbelievably tough decision but had to go with onenil in the end. Maradona messi Ronaldo are probably my 3 favourite players to watch hours of footage of, and the rest of the side is worth it's place in any final.

@Downcast i don't think you could have done anything differently, excellent side

Cheers.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Onenil - himself - do consider him as an inside-forward... like most people who wrote about Rivaldo. Some even describe him as a 'second-striker'. I'm not sure you can compare Rivaldo with a true hard-working wide forward like Conti.

Rivaldo best position in his Ballon winning year and for 1999 Copa was as a modern inside forward. Its just wrong to try to portray him not in his absolute 100% best zone historically. This is a very bad matchup for you because you have Rivaldo operating in his favored inside-left which is outside-in. Watch his matches for Barcelona in this era. He was not some robot cutting inside all the time but knew how to use the wings and then cut in when optimal.`

The import fact here is this: with Rivaldo interchanging with Ronaldo and Maradona my side does not lack a wide threat.

This contrasts with Camacho who is being asked to man mark a fluid offense with Rivaldo on the opposite side of the pitch than he played most of his career. His make-shift RB stints for Spain were unconvincing in 1982 which doesn't lead to

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Aye, I'm not entirely sold on the Maldini/Camacho pure man-marking details given the sheer number of different match winners in your attack, and their ability to interchange positions. If Rivaldo drops deep enough or moves central enough, for example, its better for Camacho to pass him over to a teammate at some point rather than chasing him all over the pitch and compromising the defensive shape. That said, you maybe lack the attacking full backs to exploit that to the full. And you also missed out Garrincha-Pele in your proven combinations list

Fair points and there are substitutions allowed

 

[Ecstatic]

Rivaldo best position in his Ballon winning year and for 1999 Copa was as a modern inside forward. Its just wrong to try to portray him not in his absolute 100% best zone historically. This is a very bad matchup for you because you have Rivaldo operating in his favored inside-left which is outside-in. Watch his matches for Barcelona in this era. He was not some robot cutting inside all the time but knew how to use the wings and then cut in when optimal.`

The import fact here is this: with Rivaldo interchanging with Ronaldo and Maradona my side does not lack a wide threat.

This contrasts with Camacho who is being asked to man mark a fluid offense with Rivaldo on the opposite side of the pitch than he played most of his career. His make-shift RB stints for Spain were unconvincing in 1982 which doesn't lead to

I haven't caricatured Rivaldo or your strategy. All the players can do the job here.

My question is rather: do you think you will get the most out of Rivaldo and Maradona when you also have Ronaldo and Messi on the pitch?

Rivaldo close to Ronaldo makes more sense IMO

 

[antohan]

Cue ONTTA making the obvious sub.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Aye, I'm not entirely sold on the Maldini/Camacho pure man-marking details given the sheer number of different match winners in your attack, and their ability to interchange positions. If Rivaldo drops deep enough or moves central enough, for example, its better for Camacho to pass him over to a teammate at some point rather than chasing him all over the pitch and compromising the defensive shape. That said, you maybe lack the attacking full backs to exploit that to the full. And you also missed out Garrincha-Pele in your proven combinations list

Aye I get Camacho on a man marking duty but Maldini too seems a bit of an overkill, esp given the fluidity of onenil's attack. Think Downcast might have meant a compact back 4 with Maldini tucked in but might have unintentionally gone overboard.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I haven't caricatured Rivaldo or your strategy. All the players can do the job here.

My question is rather: do you think you will get the most out of Rivaldo and Maradona when you also have Ronaldo and Messi on the pitch?

Rivaldo close to Ronaldo makes more sense IMO

My attacking four is very fluid. So if Rivaldo cuts in Maradona or Ronaldo could use that space on their left. This is something they did in their careers. I think Camacho (esp on the right) and Maldini man marking Messi and Rivaldo is going to cause a lot of problems. Also my attack generally has a fairly large pace advantage over your entire back line so that interchanging space can open up a lot of opportunities and helps to minimize Scirea and Moore's reading of the match and maximize the gap in pace between my attackers and your defenders.

 

[Ecstatic]

Some have decided to describe my defence in a grotesque way.

Any defence uses a mix of man-marking and zonal marking depending the circumstances.

 

[Ecstatic]

Time to speak about Pelé and Garrincha

40 games together with Brazil - 36 W - 4 D - 2 WC won

For those who are under 70 or those who want to further understand my offensive strategy


https://streamable.com/sexit

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Here are some Gifs of Ronaldo moving out to the left flank away against Real Madrid in 1998

Spoiler

This is to show how dangerous that flank will be with Ronaldo and Rivaldo combining not to mention Maradona and how this pace can exploit the lack of pace in defense.

 

[antohan]

Some have decided to describe my defence in a grotesque way.

Any defence uses a mix of man-marking and zonal marking depending the circumstances.

2 zonal and 2 man marking doesn't sound like a good recipe though.

 

[green_smiley]

Vote for Downcast as I see:
1) his front four a better fit than onenil's,
2) Robson and Rijkaard will provide better support for Platini to orchestrate attack

 

[antohan]

Not sure if @The Stain will be around at HT so posting @oneniltothearsenal s requested half time change:

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Good to have new neutrals participating in the discussions. Thanks.

Thanks for Matt for sharing his views.

I'll just explain my thinking. From previous matches I knew the two potential criticisms for this final would be Didi in the physical battle (mentioned last match) or Chumpitaz/Santamaria against Pele/physical and aerial threat at CF (mentioned in my match vs. Pat).

Selecting Lothar would have solve the first issue but leave the second and selecting Elias solves the second but leaves the first. I didn't really see a way to solve both at once so I opted for the solution that push the mismatch back up the pitch and further from my goal. It was a trade-off that may or may not work out but that was my thinking.

Cheers guys! I'm starting to like this game.

And yeah OneNil, I see your dilemma and second the opinion that you made the right decision. Dealing with Robbo is a concern, but taking care of Pele is top-priority.

One could argue conversely that Downcast's midfield is light in attack because.. no Maradona. Add to that Garrincha and CR7 having slightly individualistic streaks, one realizes the back-four plus Varela might just be enough..

Varela-Platini vs Rijkaard-Maradona is worth looking at as well. Both Platini and Diego are a nightmare to contain for different reasons, but OneNil's attack has Messi to take up the 10 role should Diego find himself marked. On the other side, Downcast's attacking trio seem slightly more dependent on Platini for linking up.

Overall, great match-up which should, imho, be decided in the midfield sub-plots. Good luck guys

 

[Ecstatic]

2 zonal and 2 man marking doesn't sound like a good recipe though.

I was referring about the tasks of a single defender.

1. on set pieces close man marking
2. in the area of Maldini: tough marking/monitoring of Messi... with the support of Robson



On the other side, Camacho will benefit from the help of Rijkaard







3. and if Messi wants to enter into collusion with Maradona and organize the game ala Platini at the heart of the Game, Maldini won't follow him.

Maldini is a complete defender but he's a more 'defence oriented player' than Nilton Santos for instance.

Like Pelé or Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo and Maradona requires a collective management IMO. Not an easy task. That is why, I did need Robson and Rijkaard close to my central defenders in order to limit the available space for Maradona.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not sure if @The Stain will be around at HT so posting @oneniltothearsenal s requested half time change:

That looks much better. The double defensive full back thing was a bit odd and I could only see that work in a counter attacking side that has a great defense from the front to the back. Just too many offensive flair players who are quite weak defensively otherwise and inviting pressure would be an awful idea.

Now the left side looks great instead of a bit dodgy with Rivaldo without any full back giving him width and someone to work with. Don't like that front line still though, just too many individualists who wants the ball at their feet and too few players doing other equally important jobs.

Defensively that side would be a bit too easy to move through. Would probably have gone for a draw if Onenil started like this but he does have a fair point on Platini still being able to set up Garrincha, Ronaldo and Pele in a quick way. Pele as a striker was exceptional as a target striker and destroyed the Swedes playing like that. Receiving long passes and staying in control after tanking some strong tackles, just to set a man or himself free just after.

Of course Pele was absolute kryptonite to that WM formation so a modern 4 man defense wouldn't be equally destroyed by any means. But there are goals in both the Pele route and the Platini to Ronaldo/Garrincha.

Not to mention Robson and Rijkaard being a better pair in this game than Didi and Varela. Didi looked fantastic with Zico, but not with Maradona. He likes to carry the ball forward and have someone to link up with and there are just too many of that type for Onenil in Messi, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Maradona and Didi. I could see them all carry the ball through the central areas.

I loved the Socrates-Zico thing he had going on earler, Didi and Varela would be ideal behind them pretty much. Is it a Maradona side? Not really. Is it a Messi side? Not really. It is some weird split where Ronaldo/Rivaldo would work well but I just can't see where the glue is between the players.

Maybe I am the only one but I'd have liked to see;

---<---Rivaldo-------Messi--->--
-------Zico---------Socrates------
-------Varela---------Didi---------

Ronaldo-Rivaldo would be ideal but as Nilton is on the left you have to play Messi to compensate for Djalma. Then you could go Ronaldo as well but Rivaldo and Messi infront of Zico and Socrates would already score more than enough goals.

 

[Ecstatic]

Not sure if @The Stain will be around at HT so posting @oneniltothearsenal s requested half time change:

Interesting tactical change.

This change shows my assessment of Rivaldo was fair and honest.

Onenil will be stronger offensively but more vulnerable defensively: question mark when we know Garrincha was a pure winger who requires full attention.

To be discussed.

 

[Ecstatic]

Vote for Downcast as I see:
1) his front four a better fit than onenil's,
2) Robson and Rijkaard will provide better support for Platini to orchestrate attack

Thanks. And because details matter:

---> Cr7 knows how to play with a collective #10 like Deco. Euro 2004 Final + WC 2006 SF with a quatuor comprised of Cr7, Deco, Figo and Pauleta
---> Platini to support 3 offensive players as he successfully did with Juve: Boniek, Bettega and Rossi
---> Pelé and Garrincha were part of a front 4: the 2 other players were generally Vava and Zagallo

 

[harms]

Tough choice, again. Good substitution by @oneniltothearsenal

 

[Ecstatic]

1. That looks much better. The double defensive full back thing was a bit odd and I could only see that work in a counter attacking side that has a great defense from the front to the back.

2. Just too many offensive flair players who are quite weak defensively otherwise and inviting pressure would be an awful idea.Now the left side looks great instead of a bit dodgy with Rivaldo without any full back giving him width and someone to work with. Don't like that front line still though, just too many individualists who wants the ball at their feet and too few players doing other equally important jobs.

3. Defensively that side would be a bit too easy to move through. Would probably have gone for a draw if Onenil started like this but he does have a fair point on Platini still being able to set up Garrincha, Ronaldo and Pele in a quick way. Pele as a striker was exceptional as a target striker and destroyed the Swedes playing like that. Receiving long passes and staying in control after tanking some strong tackles, just to set a man or himself free just after.

Of course Pele was absolute kryptonite to that WM formation so a modern 4 man defense wouldn't be equally destroyed by any means. But there are goals in both the Pele route and the Platini to Ronaldo/Garrincha.

Not to mention Robson and Rijkaard being a better pair in this game than Didi and Varela. Didi looked fantastic with Zico, but not with Maradona. He likes to carry the ball forward and have someone to link up with and there are just too many of that type for Onenil in Messi, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Maradona and Didi. I could see them all carry the ball through the central areas.

1. Yeah. A double defensive FB makes sense if the wingers are able to operate quickly and without the necessary offensive support of the FB.

2. That is why, the principle of Bepo was a wise one: give the full powers to Maradona and the optimal platform, a tactical system where Maradona is part of an offensive trio and where he doesn't have to share the leadership and be involved in defensive duties.

A 3-5-2 or 4-3-1-2 with Maradona-Ronaldo-Rivaldo would have been perfect IMO You know my story-telling: the slaves on the one hand and the artists on the other one.

3. Didi makes sense if he has direct access to the striker: a creative central midfielder to support Vava and Pelé (WC 58). Here, we have Maradona who can't be viewed as a second striker because you have Rivaldo and Messi on the wings. One of the reasons that make me think Didi wasn't the most obvious choice in terms of balance.

Didi-Nilton Santos a proven partnership? Yes BUT in a context where Zagallo was really a hard-working winger. Rivaldo is invited to join the penalty area, not to sacrifice himself in the name of the team. Be careful, I don't say he should have picked Zagallo: I just say you need a Didi who plays in an unnatural way (very defensive) if you try to get an harmonious balance.

As far as I'm concerned, the allocation of tasks is pretty clear.

I loved the Socrates-Zico thing he had going on earler, Didi and Varela would be ideal behind them pretty much. Is it a Maradona side? Not really. Is it a Messi side? Not really. It is some weird split where Ronaldo/Rivaldo would work well but I just can't see where the glue is between the players.

Maybe I am the only one but I'd have liked to see;

---<---Rivaldo-------Messi--->--
-------Zico---------Socrates------
-------Varela---------Didi---------

Ronaldo-Rivaldo would be ideal but as Nilton is on the left you have to play Messi to compensate for Djalma. Then you could go Ronaldo as well but Rivaldo and Messi infront of Zico and Socrates would already score more than enough goals.

It makes sense if Socrates tends to play on the right, Rivaldo on the left and Messi upfront IMO.
In this context, very offensive LB are the welcome.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

A double defensive FB makes sense if the wingers are able to operate quickly and without the necessary offensive support of the FB.

Doesn't your team have the same problem with Maldini and Camacho? I doubt CR and Garrincha provide anything defensively.

 

[mazhar13]

Doesn't your team have the same problem with Maldini and Camacho? I doubt CR and Garrincha provide anything defensively.

Not only that, but CR will spend more time inside than outside, so Downcast will need a full back that will provide width on the left side. Having said that, whilst Maldini wasn't really offensive, he was still decent enough on the ball to make an impact going forward.

 

[Ecstatic]

Doesn't your team have the same problem with Maldini and Camacho? I doubt CR and Garrincha provide anything defensively.

You're right about Garrincha: that is why, he requires a conservative RB.

CR could make a decent job if I refer to this post here

 

[Ecstatic]

Not only that, but CR will spend more time inside than outside, so Downcast will need a full back that will provide width on the left side. Having said that, whilst Maldini wasn't really offensive, he was still decent enough on the ball to make an impact going forward.

I broadly agree with you here.

CR 2004 clearly spend more time outside than inside if I refer to his Euro 2004. CR 2017 is obviously another player.

If my memory serves me correctly, Prime CR had the tendency to over-exploit his speed.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

This has went very quiet. I opted for Onenil, with no confidence in my choice at all as both teams are so good. Didi does look redundant in there and Downcast's superb midfield is making me question my vote now, but I do like the theme and proven partnerships throughout Onenil's side, not to mention the superlative quality in attack. The lack of 'fixed position' width is hugely mitigated by the sheer mobility of his frontline, and the capacity of all of them to do something devastating starting from a wide area.

 

[mazhar13]

This has went very quiet. I opted for Onenil, with no confidence in my choice at all as both teams are so good. Didi does look redundant in there and Downcast's superb midfield is making me question my vote now, but I do like the theme and proven partnerships throughout Onenil's side, not to mention the superlative quality in attack. The lack of 'fixed position' width is hugely mitigated by the sheer mobility of his frontline, and the capacity of all of them to do something devastating starting from a wide area.

I have the same exact thoughts and feelings as you do. Honestly, the only reason I went for OneNil's side is the way in which they can all work together so well. That front 4 is much more than the sum of their individual abilities, and I can't say the same for Downcast's attack.

Having said that, I'm still on the fence and can be swayed either way.

 

[Gio]

Not only that, but CR will spend more time inside than outside, so Downcast will need a full back that will provide width on the left side. Having said that, whilst Maldini wasn't really offensive, he was still decent enough on the ball to make an impact going forward.

Yeah Maldini was no slouch going forward and did it very well often enough. Few would deploy him for example in the wing-back role he had at 32 for Italy in their 3-4-2-1 at Euro 2000, but he did that well.

 

[Moby]

Paolo was highly productive going forward and by his own admission loved being a part of the attack, sure had the stamina and athleticism to do it, and it also allowed him to put in those GOAT inch perfect slide tackles.

I'd upload the part from his documentary where he talks about him being an attack-minded defender if I can.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

To be honest I kinda knew what you had in mind putting Andrade(the history behind Garrincha and Nilton), but IMO Nilton still is the better pick, especially with getting Figueroa as he offers more going forward. Maradona and Ronaldo will drift to the wings of course, but would've preferred at least one more attacking full back in your set up.

Would've preferred Nilton to start here too, he wasn't your usual overlapping wingback but I think he was much needed on the left with central-oriented attacking unit. I understand the Garrincha concern but I wouldn't trust Andrade to deal with him too, so the cons outweigh pros for me.

Yeah, This was pretty much it for me as well. Both Messi & Rivaldo hit their peak with overlapping full backs in Sergi/Roberto Carlos/Alves. Without them Onenil's attack would have trouble influencing wide areas. Agree with Harms as well that Platini has a better platform to work here than Maradona, although Garrincha is going to frustrate him as much as opposition team.

I brought on Nilton Santos at the half way to assist with some of these issues. If I imagine the comments as simulating a match, its clearly Andrade was not gaining traction defensively so Nilton Santos is brought on to increase the offensive fluidity and exploit Garrincha's weaknesses. This adds another quality attacker on the left who has played with Didi. I think this increases my advantage offensively on the left flank with the out of position Camacho being more likely to get exposed now.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

With so many well known GOATS across the board there is little else to say going into the final leg. I'll just briefly summarize my points of advantage here.

• Camacho is out of position and never convincing as a RB, now he faces Rivaldo plus Nilton Santos without any help from his winger
• Rivaldo and Ronaldo are a proven big game winning combination + Maradona was one of the most prolific big match winners in history + all are much speedier than all the backline of defense
• My front four is more fluid and complementary than the individualistic Garrincha and CR and Pele who lack the service to maximize their skill sets
• With Nilton Santos added to the attack, my attack is stronger than the opponents who only has four attackers for the entire match against GOAT level defenders
• Maldini and Camacho trying to man mark Messi and Rivaldo creates all sorts of space for my extreme pace advantage over the defense

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Not only that, but CR will spend more time inside than outside, so Downcast will need a full back that will provide width on the left side. Having said that, whilst Maldini wasn't really offensive, he was still decent enough on the ball to make an impact going forward.

I don't see Maldini having much impact going forward otherwise Messi is going to have far too much free time and space to be stopped. Especially with Figueroa and Didi capable of springing Messi

 

[Gio]

I went for Onenil. Obviously two incredible teams, but I'm not sold on a Moore-Scirea partnership, especially against the might of a Maradona-Messi-Ronaldo axis. In my mind that is the three greatest players in one-on-one situations of all time. And they are supported by Rivaldo who, along with Maradona and Messi, arguably boasts the three greatest left pegs of all time. Just too much attacking devastation there.

 

[Moby]

Rivaldo who, along with Maradona and Messi, arguably boasts the three greatest left pegs of all time.

Probably have Puskas in there. Robben as well.

 

[mazhar13]

I don't see Maldini having much impact going forward otherwise Messi is going to have far too much free time and space to be stopped. Especially with Figueroa and Didi capable of springing Messi

Oh yeah, I don't think that he'll be too willing to go forward anyways as he'll have to deal with Messi on the break. This, however, doesn't diminish his technique and attacking abilities.

 

[Ecstatic]

With so many well known GOATS across the board there is little else to say going into the final leg. I'll just briefly summarize my points of advantage here.

• Camacho is out of position and never convincing as a RB, now he faces Rivaldo plus Nilton Santos without any help from his winger
• Rivaldo and Ronaldo are a proven big game winning combination + Maradona was one of the most prolific big match winners in history + all are much speedier than all the backline of defense
• My front four is more fluid and complementary than the individualistic Garrincha and CR and Pele who lack the service to maximize their skill sets
• With Nilton Santos added to the attack, my attack is stronger than the opponents who only has four attackers for the entire match against GOAT level defenders
• Maldini and Camacho trying to man mark Messi and Rivaldo creates all sorts of space for my extreme pace advantage over the defense

1. Back 6 mate. Rijkaard+Camacho. You ignore defending is a collective work.
2. Proven partnership? Yes, but in which context? In 2002, with 7 defensive players+ Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Ronaldo
3. Fully disagree there. Maradona/Messi/Ronaldo/Rivaldo . Each of these players reached their prime in a tactical system that....differs from your.
4. You lack balance as explained previously. Balance, battle midfield and harmonious offensive strategy are the key drivers for me.
5. Caricature.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Probably have Puskas in there. Robben as well.

At first I was thinking Robben doesn't deserve mentioned here but then when you think about it, his left foot is THAT good.

 

[Ecstatic]

I don't see Maldini having much impact going forward otherwise Messi is going to have far too much free time and space to be stopped. Especially with Figueroa and Didi capable of springing Messi

I don't see Messi having much impact with the greatest LB of All-Times IMO