Yeah, this is my understanding of his style of play: I thought it was obvious for everyone, but apparently no.
That is why, I have no arrows on my FB: they are first and foremost defenders whose obession is the opposing winger/WF.
The 4th Sheep Draft | Final | onenil vs Downcast
- Thread starter The Stain
- Start date
Yeah, this is my understanding of his style of play: I thought it was obvious for everyone, but apparently no.
That is why, I have no arrows on my FB: they are first and foremost defenders whose obession is the opposing winger/WF.
I don't see a problem here. You don't really need a tucked in defender type when playing against Inside Forwards. Positionally most fullbacks allow for tucking in and don't restrict themselves to touchline hugging. More central he drifts more busy the area is and very difficult for off the ball movements.
No issue with that. People will react to him being deployed on the right, though, as most will associate him with the LB position.
Just say he's a pain-in-the-arse shadow type of defender for this match, specifically, and there should be no misunderstandings. He has done that job before, and done it well.
DOWNCAST - A MIDFIELD READY FOR THE BATTLE
Michel Platini - #10 - A brilliant attacking midfielder who also loves to organize the game...and defend/tackle
Bryan Robson - #8 - The Box-To-Box known for his fighting spirit
Frank Rijkaard -#6 - the best modern defensive midfielder on the pitch
Michel Platini - #10 - A brilliant attacking midfielder who also loves to organize the game...and defend/tackle
Let's analyze a single game: YouTube video '83-84 Home Michel Platini vs Manchester United'
Long passing skills -leading to a beautiful assist
Partnership Platini-Cr7
Playmaking skills: Platini is really a collective player at the heart of the Game
Tackles and defensive support
And I could go on...
Long passing skills -leading to a beautiful assist
Partnership Platini-Cr7
Playmaking skills: Platini is really a collective player at the heart of the Game
Tackles and defensive support
And I could go on...
Bryan Robson - #8 - The Box-To-Box known for his fighting spirit
Great tackles, ball winning and passing abilities. He also was a good header of the ball and his engine enabled him to get to the goal.
Frank Rijkaard -#6 - the best modern defensive midfielder on the pitch
A strong and robust guy
Dani Alves- Rijkaard-Scirea-Rijkaard-Platini-Rijkaard-Garrincha
Dani Alves- Rijkaard-Scirea-Rijkaard-Platini-Rijkaard-Garrincha
The Rivaldo-Camacho point has been exaggerated slightly. Both defences will have their fair share of problems but are well-equipped to deal with them.
Bigger factor for me is the midfield. @Downcast 's midfield is balanced and very well-connected to defence and attack but the biggest worry is Rijkaard finding himself one-on-one with Maradona in defensive transitions. On the flip side, @oneniltothearsenal mid with Didi and Diego is strong in possession, but perhaps a tad light defensively?
Deciding player: Robson. Nobody like him in both teams.
Bigger factor for me is the midfield. @Downcast 's midfield is balanced and very well-connected to defence and attack but the biggest worry is Rijkaard finding himself one-on-one with Maradona in defensive transitions. On the flip side, @oneniltothearsenal mid with Didi and Diego is strong in possession, but perhaps a tad light defensively?
Deciding player: Robson. Nobody like him in both teams.
@oneniltothearsenal There it is.
Still, though, that's not my issue. Camacho is a great player to have anywhere in the back line as an annoying pest for opponents. However, tasking Camacho to keep tabs on Rivaldo will open up spaces on the left channel for Maradona to exploit as he naturally would.
The lack of width would be the case if there was a centrally-oriented #10 in OneNil's side, but Maradona was anything but centrally oriented. He loved drifting out to the left channel, and I see that happening quite often here, particularly when Rivaldo drifts inside or drops deep. As a result, I don't see much of an issue regarding OneNil's ability to stretch Downcast's defence.
Camacho can play as a man marker, but is a balanced left back.
Does @Downcast have tactics? His tactics read like something from "The Zen of Defending"
So what is Camacho's role here Downcast? Is he marking Rivaldo? What's his likely defence attack spread, 80/20, 90/10?
Does @Downcast have tactics? His tactics read like something from "The Zen of Defending"
Downcast said:
So what is Camacho's role here Downcast? Is he marking Rivaldo? What's his likely defence attack spread, 80/20, 90/10?
He played RB in one of the poorest home team campaigns in WC history: W1-D1-L3. In fairness, for the two losses in the second round he was no longer played at RB but in midfield.
Either way, nothing to write home about. All you can expect is precisely that: an aggressive and experienced never-say die man marker. Better than Alves, mind, but a risky slight on Bergomi.
That might very well be the case here, and honestly, it'd be typical of Captain Marvel to be the decider in a tight encounter like this. It seems like the perfect match for him to shine.
Seriously, with a player like Didi, Captain Marvel is the best player to stop him from potentially being a key factor for OneNil. Whilst putting Rijkaard in a potential 1-on-1 seems risky (Maradona would always better his opponent in 1-on-1 battles), cutting the supply from Didi will cause OneNil's side issues. Robbo's the ideal man for that, and when Downcast's team has the ball, Robbo will again be the deciding factor, and I struggle to see Didi keeping up with Robbo's movement.
Good to have new neutrals participating in the discussions. Thanks.
Indeed, with so much GOAT nullifying going on across both teams the Didí-Robbo battle looks the most compelling non-deadlocked factor going.
That might very well be the case here, and honestly, it'd be typical of Captain Marvel to be the decider in a tight encounter like this. It seems like the perfect match for him to shine.
Seriously, with a player like Didi, Captain Marvel is the best player to stop him from potentially being a key factor for OneNil. Whilst putting Rijkaard in a potential 1-on-1 seems risky (Maradona would always better his opponent in 1-on-1 battles), cutting the supply from Didi will cause OneNil's side issues. Robbo's the ideal man for that, and when Downcast's team has the ball, Robbo will again be the deciding factor, and I struggle to see Didi keeping up with Robbo's movement.
Thanks for Matt for sharing his views.
I'll just explain my thinking. From previous matches I knew the two potential criticisms for this final would be Didi in the physical battle (mentioned last match) or Chumpitaz/Santamaria against Pele/physical and aerial threat at CF (mentioned in my match vs. Pat).
Selecting Lothar would have solve the first issue but leave the second and selecting Elias solves the second but leaves the first. I didn't really see a way to solve both at once so I opted for the solution that push the mismatch back up the pitch and further from my goal. It was a trade-off that may or may not work out but that was my thinking.
You also lacked distribution from the back. Right decision IMO.
I agree with you. Spain 82 seemed to be weak given the results and the names of the various players.
A lot of tactical changes in a short period of time: not a coincidence even if some players were injured.
My understanding is that Spain reached the final of the Euro 84 because the players were globally harsh and aggressive. The refereeing was probably more permissive.
Camacho can play as a man marker, but is a balanced left back.
Does @Downcast have tactics? His tactics read like something from "The Zen of Defending"
So what is Camacho's role here Downcast? Is he marking Rivaldo? What's his likely defence attack spread, 80/20, 90/10?
You should look at the picture of Camacho to understand his role. He isn't a poet. Defence attack spread 90/10Or maybe do you want his PES stats?
Club: Real Madrid
Number: 3
Position: *SB
Nationality: Spanish
Age: 28-29 (08/06/1955)
Era: 1983/1984
Foot: L
Side: L
Height: 174 cm
Weight: 70 kg
Attack: 72
Defence: 84
Balance: 85
Stamina: 95
Top Speed: 81
Acceleration: 83
Response: 89
Agility: 79
Dribble Accuracy: 82
Dribble Speed: 79
Short Pass Accuracy: 83
Short Pass Speed: 79
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 78
Shot Accuracy: 70
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 72
Free Kick Accuracy: 71
Curling: 74
Header: 82
Jump: 86
Technique: 80
Aggression: 79
Mentality/Tenacity: 97
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 88
Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 8
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 3
Consistency: 7
Growth type: Late/Lasting
CARDS:
P01 Overlapping Run
P02: Deep Cover
S01: Reaction
S07: Man Marking
S08: Slide Tackle
S10: DF Leader
S13: Long Throw
SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Reaction
*Side
*Marking
*Sliding
*D-Line Control
*Long Throw
Number: 3
Position: *SB
Nationality: Spanish
Age: 28-29 (08/06/1955)
Era: 1983/1984
Foot: L
Side: L
Height: 174 cm
Weight: 70 kg
Attack: 72
Defence: 84
Balance: 85
Stamina: 95
Top Speed: 81
Acceleration: 83
Response: 89
Agility: 79
Dribble Accuracy: 82
Dribble Speed: 79
Short Pass Accuracy: 83
Short Pass Speed: 79
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 78
Shot Accuracy: 70
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 72
Free Kick Accuracy: 71
Curling: 74
Header: 82
Jump: 86
Technique: 80
Aggression: 79
Mentality/Tenacity: 97
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 88
Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 8
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 3
Consistency: 7
Growth type: Late/Lasting
CARDS:
P01 Overlapping Run
P02: Deep Cover
S01: Reaction
S07: Man Marking
S08: Slide Tackle
S10: DF Leader
S13: Long Throw
SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Reaction
*Side
*Marking
*Sliding
*D-Line Control
*Long Throw
A gift for you
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I also think you've taken the right decision regarding Lothar because he would have required many adjustments (so ideally 1-2 new additional players).
Gone for Downcast though it was very close. Without any attacking full-backs I can see OneNil just being bogged down centrally and with Rikjaard and Robson covering I can see him keeping that front for out more than I can see the OneNil's defense keeping out Downcast on the counter. I can see Garrincha being the difference providing flair and stretching the play to provide for Pele and Platini.
Let's move on and discuss new topics!
In my opinion Camacho will do a better job vs Rivaldo than Andrade vs Garrincha.
So, Maldini and Camacho are basically on man-marking jobs?
That's a very risky tactics against a unit so flexible like onenil's
Can't shake the feeling that Platini is going to have a better game than Maradona though. And nice to see Robbo making it to the all-time-ish draft final
That's a very risky tactics against a unit so flexible like onenil's
Can't shake the feeling that Platini is going to have a better game than Maradona though. And nice to see Robbo making it to the all-time-ish draft final
Agree
Tbf neither were at their peak, and young Ronaldinho played second fiddle to both imo. Likewise for Barca, when he played on the left, he frequently played with a foil like Kluivert up top with Figo stretching play on the right. Mind you I don't think he won't fit into the side here (can see the Messi lofted balls to the inside left channels being a threat) nor do I believe he can't play with other creative influences or that he has to be the star player, it's not much to do with him. Just get the feeling that a more mobile and hard-running/explosive wing forward (not that Rivaldo was a slouch by any means) would help elevate Maradona and Messi's game more here.
Nah, you just stick him there.
It would break the theme though. Surprised he even entertained it, but I guess once you bench Socrates anything is possible.
Yeah, This was pretty much it for me as well. Both Messi & Rivaldo hit their peak with overlapping full backs in Sergi/Roberto Carlos/Alves. Without them Onenil's attack would have trouble influencing wide areas. Agree with Harms as well that Platini has a better platform to work here than Maradona, although Garrincha is going to frustrate him as much as opposition team.
I think so too. Garrincha is facing something he did his entire career while Rivaldo is up against some ancient beast who will try to man mark him all game.
I've explained in a previous post why I deeply believe I have a balanced midfield: the roles are clearly defined.
----> a #10 at the heart of the game: a fascinating player in the sense that he is interested to support the defensive players.
----> a box-to-box full of energy
----> a defensive central holding midfielder
Onenil has a fantastic team comprised of fantastic players. A consistent strategy.
That said, in terms of defensive contribution, the burden on Didi and Varela is excessively heavy.
One word about Varela: the greatest defensive midfielder in the World in the 1940s, an Uruguayan legend. Top!
Didi is also one of the greatest central midfielders, but rather a creative one who liked to enlighten the game and contribute offensively: he tends to go forward.
Is it the best choice to select Didi when we have Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo and Rivaldo? I don't think so in terms of balance and battle midfield.
Of course, Maradona is a better/greater player than Platini but the latter is more useful defensively.
----> a #10 at the heart of the game: a fascinating player in the sense that he is interested to support the defensive players.
----> a box-to-box full of energy
----> a defensive central holding midfielder
Onenil has a fantastic team comprised of fantastic players. A consistent strategy.
That said, in terms of defensive contribution, the burden on Didi and Varela is excessively heavy.
One word about Varela: the greatest defensive midfielder in the World in the 1940s, an Uruguayan legend. Top!
Didi is also one of the greatest central midfielders, but rather a creative one who liked to enlighten the game and contribute offensively: he tends to go forward.
Is it the best choice to select Didi when we have Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo and Rivaldo? I don't think so in terms of balance and battle midfield.
Of course, Maradona is a better/greater player than Platini but the latter is more useful defensively.
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To counter @Downcast's points I will raise this issue.
His attackers are more individualistic and defenders are are more individual man marking assignments.
This provides me an advantage in attacking as a unit. My attackers naturally will shift positions, offer fluidity and and cause all sorts of movement problems for individual man markers. This has a greater chance of unbalancing the defense than the more individualistic attackers against a defense that is great at marking but also being marshaled as a unit by leaders like Varela and Figueroa.
I also have proven combinations throughout. Andrade-Varela, Didi-Djalma, Rivaldo-Ronaldo while it is not certain players like Platini-Garrincha get the most out of each other.
His attackers are more individualistic and defenders are are more individual man marking assignments.
This provides me an advantage in attacking as a unit. My attackers naturally will shift positions, offer fluidity and and cause all sorts of movement problems for individual man markers. This has a greater chance of unbalancing the defense than the more individualistic attackers against a defense that is great at marking but also being marshaled as a unit by leaders like Varela and Figueroa.
I also have proven combinations throughout. Andrade-Varela, Didi-Djalma, Rivaldo-Ronaldo while it is not certain players like Platini-Garrincha get the most out of each other.
Garrincha is such an arse in these things.
On the one hand you have the proven combination with Pelé, but then DC has both Pelé and Cristiano providing an aerial threat which I can't see Garrincha exploiting as effectively as lesser wingers.
Then you have that midfield trio which is lovely, great platform for Platini and great partners to just run at the defence through the middle... but you have feck all idea whether Mané aids or hinders that. (I'm going for neutral in that Platini simply won't involve him, like a separate Special Ops unit doing their own thing).
Lovely player to watch, but not the most conducive to orchestrated moves because you just know he has a mind of his own and you have feck all idea what he will do, just that it will be fun to watch.
The remake draft was the opportunity for me to really discover all aspects of Platini. For sake of clarity, I've analyzed a single game and I've chosen Juve-United.
Platini at the heart of the game looking for Cr7 or Pelé
Partnership Platini-Cr7
Playmaking skills: Platini is really a collective player at the heart of the Game ---> Consider the player number 7 as Garrincha on the right
So true. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to watch a full game of Brazil 58 or 62. This summer hopefully.
I can understand that concern, and honestly, such a player might be more of a test for Camacho himself, but having said that, Rivaldo offers that fluidity to the front 4 that such a wide forward might not offer. Against a defence like Downcast's, you'd want more of a variety in your attacks from your front 4 in order to not only keep Camacho guessing but also Rijkaard, Scirea, Moore, and Maldini.
- You'd want Maradona to be able to drift to the left into space whilst there's someone in the middle to link up with.
- You'd want Ronaldo to be able to drift around whilst there's someone who will break the defensive line.
- You'll also want someone who will create chances for and supply Maradona, Ronaldo, and Messi as well when they would be going through on goal themselves.
1.My attackers individualistic?
- Garrincha? Yes
- Platini? Completely false. For the anecdote, his teammates (Tigana and somebody else) at the Euro 1984 asked him to stop defending because the team essentially needed his offensive skills.
- Pelé and Cr7 shone in a similar environment: I don't think they are necessarily more individualistic than your players, just my feeling.
2. Camacho and Maldini have man-marking assignments: nothing revolutionary. What I know if they won't follow Messi and Rivaldo to the toilet.
For me, you made the right decision in going for Figueroa. Against Downcast's attack, he's the perfect libero to deal with the movement that C. Ronaldo, Platini, and Pelé offer. He'd also be a great outlet for Didi to relieve the pressure that he'd be put under.
This is why the match is so tight for me. I'm still not sure about who will win this final. I think, ultimately, Captain Marvel and OneNil's lack of a full back who'll support Messi and Rivaldo might be the key here.
Interesting approach....
I don't think Garrincha, Pelé will be fully free...
Onenil - himself - do consider him as an inside-forward... like most people who wrote about Rivaldo. Some even describe him as a 'second-striker'. I'm not sure you can compare Rivaldo with a true hard-working wide forward like Conti.
I do remember I have generally voted against your team in the previous drafts, but please be sure there is nothing personal.
I always liked Didi's (or at least I think it was him) story about him trying to make Garrincha less individualistic. He shouted at him every time he should've passed or crossed, but Garrincha held on to the ball, toying with the defender - and after another take on he finally made an inch-perfect cross to an unmarked Didi. Which made Didi realize that Garrincha wasn't only showing off (although he obviously was doing that too), but he also waited for the perfect moment when his target would be unmarked. After that he never criticized him. I'm telling this by memory, so it may not be entirely accurate, but still.
In a way it's the same paradoxically "pragmatic" approach that Bergkamp had - like his turn against Newcastle that, by his admission, was just the most simple and efficient way of beating the opponent/getting the ball into the net.
Point being - while he won't provide as many crosses as a lesser but more disciplined winger would've, the quality and the timing of his crosses will probably make up for it. And while Cristiano is often underappreciated in an all-time context, with Platini and Garrincha here I can see him deciding the game, especially while his and Garrincha's ego wouldn't clash but instead would complete each other.
Pretty sure he doesn't mean Conti, and he hardly was a wide forward. Blokhin/Stoichkov/even Cristiano and the likes
You're right. Conti was rather a side-midfielder.