The 4th Sheep Draft | Final | onenil vs Downcast

With players at peak, who wins?

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The Stain

Soccer Manager's Highwayman
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
12,500
ONENIL
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DOWNCAST
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ONENIL'S TACTICS

A somewhat controversial upgrade to opt for Figueroa instead of Matthaus. I agree Matthaus would have made a lot of sense as an overall upgrade not knowing my opponent or opponents. However while I did feel Matthaus would have been a very solid tactical fit in the midfield, Figueroa offered a few qualities needed for this match in addition to keeping with my OCD theme.

First is the matchup with Pele. Figueroa adds strength and aerial quality to help combat Pele. Additionally he adds the extra dimension of assisting the midfield battle when necessary. Beckenbauer described himself as “the European Figueroa”.

The other switch is Andrade in for Nilton Santos. Again, two reasons here. Nilton Santos, unfortunately for drafts against his teammate, is famous for stating Garrincha was too much for him to handle in that first training and subsequent quotes reinforced this. So Andrade, the defensive specialist is needed. The other benefit here is a proven combo with Obdulio.

Andrade-Varela on one flank, Didi-Djalma on the other flank offer very potent proven combinations. Rivaldo-Ronaldo adds another proven synergy up front. Our pace and unpredictability can be the dual keys to unlocking even a defense led by Moore-Scirea. While the opponent also boasts a legendary list of names, my legends combo, interact and elevate each other’s play to a higher level than the opponent.

DOWNCAST'S TACTICS

PELE - “The King of Football” - 707 Goals / 763 Games - He needs outstanding teamates to make them better and enlighten the Game.
CRISTIANO RONALDO - Ultimate Professional - 583 goals / 842 games -194 assists
GARRINCHA - Greatest RW - 239 Goals / 616 Games
PLATINI- Complete #10. High work-rate. Assists, Leadership - 318 Goals/ 580 Games
If you watch on Youtube '83-84 Home Michel Platini vs Manchester United', then you will understand the arrows. Perfect guy to combine with Pelé. Quality short & long passing skills for the wingers
ROBSON- Greatest British central midfielder- Complete B2B
RIJKAARD- Greatest Modern Defensive Midfielder - Maradona is his main target
MALDINI - Greatest Left-Back - The worst player for Messi
MOORE - LCB- WC 1966 Winner. SAF, Pelé and Beckenbauer considered him as the greatest central defender. Capable to get Tevez under control.
SCIREA - RCB - WC 1982 Winner - One of the best defenders the world has ever seen. Successful partnership with Platini
CAMACHO - RB Version WC 82 - The Greatest Spanish FB. Top-level strength, stamina and aggressive style of play. 'La Furia'
CLEMENCE - GK

---> Pelé and Garrincha never lost together on the pitch in 40 games: 36 Wins and 4 Draws - 2 World Cups won together
---> Conservative, robust and aggressive back 6 specialized in the Art of Defending
---> Platini brings balance and harmony: collective player with a significant defensive contribution.

Please click HERE to know more about these players!!
 
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The scoreline references :lol:

Though, surely for OneNil, it should have been 8-2. :devil:
 
I'll be honest, I haven't seen Camacho play at right back as all I know about him is from his performances at left back. His tenacity, determination, and will to win won't make him look out of place, but against Cristiano Ronaldo Rivaldo and his movement, I honestly see him struggling.

EDIT: Oops, I meant Rivaldo, but my point still stands.
 
mazhar13 said:
I'll be honest, I haven't seen Camacho play at right back as all I know about him is from his performances at left back. His tenacity, determination, and will to win won't make him look out of place, but against Cristiano Ronaldo and his movement, I honestly see him struggling.
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Camacho plays against Rivaldo who isn't a pure winger or wing-forward.

So, I don't see a major mismatch. Let's talk about my defence:

DOWNCAST - A STRONG AND CONSERVATIVE DEFENCE - 6 FULL-TIME SLAVES

Clear strategy: 6 players focused on protecting the GK. No offensive FB or wing-back. No hybrid midfielders. 100% Specialist in the Art of Defending in various ways.

Paulo Maldini - No better option to try to keep Messi under control

Jose Antonio Camacho - La Furia - Old-School Spanish style of play (full of energy and aggressivity) ---> RB version WC 82

Spain Vs Honduras - Group Stage Game (First Round - 16/06/1982)

1030546_Spain.jpg


Spain Vs Yugoslavia - Group Stage Game (First Round - 20/06/1982)

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Northern Ireland Vs Spain - Group Stage Game (First Round - 25/06/1982)

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4 Central Players to limit the impact of Maradona-Ronaldo

- The tactical awareness of Mister Maldini will be extremely beneficial and would make Moore very comfortable.
- Scirea is better with a conservative Right-Back capable to operate as a CB (Bergomi, Gentile), which is the case of Camacho who was sometimes deployed as a CB with Real Madrid and Spain at the Euro 1984.
- Garrincha reached his peak with a conservative Right-Back (Djalma Santos).
- Robson will harass the opposing players while Rijkaard is both robust and sharp.
 
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Downcast said:
Jose Antonio Camacho - La Furia - Old-School Spanish style of play (full of energy and aggressivity)
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See, the thing with Camacho is that he was best as a man-marking left back. He was someone who would be aggressive to the winger on his side and would close him down super quickly. He would be a player who, if he was beaten, would not give up and quickly recover. He's one of those defenders who'd constantly annoy opponents with his never-say-die attitude.

In general, he'd be fine if he was facing a winger. However, in this situation, he's facing Rivaldo, who loved to drift inside, and with Camacho coming inside quite often to deal with him, there will be ample space on the left for one of Ronaldo/Maradona to exploit.
 
Re: Camacho

Yes, he played CB at times but more like a LCB like this:

300px-Real_Madrid_vs_1._FC_K%C3%B6ln_1986-04-30.svg.png


Surely asking him to play RB against Rivaldo is not optimizing Camacho and provides Rivaldo with an advantage.
 
mazhar13 said:
The scoreline references :lol:

Though, surely for OneNil, it should have been 8-2. :devil:
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It me a second to get it and yes I would have expected to be called 8-2 or 10-2
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Surely asking him to play RB against Rivaldo is not optimizing Camacho and provides Rivaldo with an advantage.
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I don't know if Rivaldo will gain an advantage from this directly, but the team as a whole will surely benefit from Camacho at RB.

@Downcast Is there any specific requirement from Camacho from this match, or do you expect him to play as a typical defensive RB?
 
Can't wrap my head around this. No clue how it would play out, except the individual brilliance on the ball that would be on display. Good luck to both teams though.
 
mazhar13 said:
See, the thing with Camacho is that he was best as a man-marking left back. He was someone who would be aggressive to the winger on his side and would close him down super quickly. He would be a player who, if he was beaten, would not give up and quickly recover. He's one of those defenders who'd constantly annoy opponents with his never-say-die attitude.

In general, he'd be fine if he was facing a winger. However, in this situation, he's facing Rivaldo, who loved to drift inside, and with Camacho coming inside quite often to deal with him, there will be ample space on the left for one of Ronaldo/Maradona to exploit.
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I'm sorry but I don't get the story 'He is aggressive and has a never-say-die-attitude only if he plays on the left'.

In real life, Camacho has played some games as a RB, some WC games. In real life, he also played some games as a CB.

I'm fine to say he was essentially a LB but Rivaldo wasn't essentially a LW or LWF to my knowledge.

He will play against a player who isn't a left-winger or a typical left-wing forward, a player who reached his prime as a central offensive player. Rivaldo will tend to cut inside while Camacho is left-footed: you see a disadvantage for Camacho, I see a strength.

mazhar13 said:
I don't know if Rivaldo will gain an advantage from this directly, but the team as a whole will surely benefit from Camacho at RB.

@Downcast Is there any specific requirement from Camacho from this match, or do you expect him to play as a typical defensive RB?
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I expect the greatest Spanish full-back to play his game against a player whose main quality is not his pace and whose best role is rather at the heart of the attack.

I did need an aggressive FB, strong physically who will bring La Furia Roja.
 
Downcast said:
I'm fine to say he was essentially a LB but Rivaldo wasn't essentially a LW or LWF to my knowledge.
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Rivaldo won the Ballon playing as a left sided forward/attacking midfield. He is in his best position.

Also its about fluidity of play as Rivaldo cuts inside both Maradona and Ronaldo were comfortable switching out wide. The key is the interplay and dragging players out of position to create favorable space for the pace of my attack.

Ronaldo and Maradona are both much quicker than the backline so Rivaldo and Messi moving around to create space offers big advantages for Ronaldo and Diego.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
Rivaldo won the Ballon playing as a left sided forward/attacking midfield. He is in his best position.

Also its about fluidity of play as Rivaldo cuts inside both Maradona and Ronaldo were comfortable switching out wide. The key is the interplay and dragging players out of position to create favorable space for the pace of my attack.

Ronaldo and Maradona are both much quicker than the backline so Rivaldo and Messi moving around to create space offers big advantages for Ronaldo and Diego.
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The question is rather: do we get the most out of Rivaldo in this context?
 
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I really don't get it why @Downcast has put Camacho on the right. :confused: Even Maldini there is better - has started as a RB and is complete enough not to mention perfect with dealing with forwards that cut in.

Bergomi to face Rivaldo would've been perfect while Camacho would also (albeit a level below) be a nice fit for Messi.
Downcast said:
To be honest, I'm not so sure. Sorry in advance if I'm wrong mate.


Barcelona 2-2 Real Madrid
Camp Nou, Barcelona
13th October, 1999

cthis11dotcom_real_madrid_barcelona_1999_raul.jpg


http://www.thehardtackle.com/2013/barcelona-2-2-real-madrid-rauls-legend-is-born-tht-rewind/
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The one in the OP is Rivaldo's favorite position. That's why Ronaldinho played on the right with Ronaldo center to accommodate them all in one team.

Thought you'd go with a RB moving inside (Bergomi/Krol) who can also cover for Scirea moving vertically. Not that Maldini is a bad pick mate, but I really don't see that defensive unit being functional enough to stop onenil attack at this point.
 
Thats a strange representation of Barcelona formations looks more like a weird one-off, can't say that was standard.

Yes he did play as the left sided midfielder in a 433 to start, the key is where he actually played on the pitch though not the formation. He loved operating in that inside-left channel where he is positioned.

Sure, he wasn't a touchline hugging classic winger by any means but he is operating in his favored areas of the pitch - inside-left - unlike Camacho who is not operating in his favored areas of the pitch.

If Camacho follows Rivaldo inside that creates a lot of space and Ronaldo and Maradona loved drifting out at times when that space available.
 
the only question mark to @oneniltothearsenal attack is still being too centrally focused.

Messi and Rivaldo love overlapping full backs to create width on the flank. Here with Djalma and Andrade there are none on the pitch.
 
Any particular reason behind Maldini/Bergomi choice, @Joga Bonito - I saw you talking about picking "other Italian" in the thread.

Already read @Downcast 's explanation. Anyone remember how well Camacho looked on the right? Don't remember Spain being particularly impressive in 1982, they also conceded in all but 1 game in that tournament - but maybe Camacho personally looked great? Still Bergomi was an obvious choice for me (also helps with Scirea "issues" - not really issues) - but the unpredictable choice was, somehow, predictable.
 
Is it possible to put formations side by side, @The Stain. Well, I know that it's possible, but will you do it, please?
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Thats a strange representation of Barcelona formations looks more like a weird one-off, can't say that was standard.

Yes he did play as the left sided midfielder in a 433 to start, the key is where he actually played on the pitch though not the formation. He loved operating in that inside-left channel where he is positioned.

Sure, he wasn't a touchline hugging classic winger by any means but he is operating in his favored areas of the pitch - inside-left .
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I agree with you here.
 
Enigma_87 said:
the only question mark to @oneniltothearsenal attack is still being too centrally focused.

Messi and Rivaldo love overlapping full backs to create width on the flank. Here with Djalma and Andrade there are none on the pitch.
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It is centrally focused but its not as if Ronaldo or Maradona never drifted out wide to use that space when its available. I think the footballing IQ is high enough here for that not to be too much of an issue considering . And if it was in a real match, a more attacking fb could be brought on.

(I already know what EAP is going to say though as he says same about all my tactics)
 
Downcast said:
I'm sorry but I don't get the story 'He is aggressive and has a never-say-die-attitude only if he plays on the left'.
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I didn't mean it like that. My original post does state that he won't be out of place, but the fact that he'll be facing an inside-drifting player will cause some problems for your team's defensive shape. Your defence will definitely get stretched quite often, and Rijkaard will definitely have to be on his toes to deal with this.
 
harms said:
Any particular reason behind Maldini/Bergomi choice, @Joga Bonito - I saw you talking about picking "other Italian" in the thread.

Already read @Downcast 's explanation. Anyone remember how well Camacho looked on the right? Don't remember Spain being particularly impressive in 1982, they also conceded in all but 1 game in that tournament - but maybe Camacho personally looked great? Still Bergomi was an obvious choice for me (also helps with Scirea "issues" - not really issues) - but the unpredictable choice was, somehow, predictable.
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Simple really, Camacho against Messi wasn't going to end well whilst I reckoned, putting the clamps on Messi (who looked more at ease in this set-up) was more important than Rivaldo here. Downcast required an upgrade there whilst he could afford to get Camacho who has played on the right a few times for Real as a man-marker (can't exactly recall which exactly but came across a few when watching Schuster, and he was a rugged and a very good man-marker and a good fit for such a role). Think he would do a good job against Rivaldo (in this set-up) myself.


Interesting to see how Scirea-Moore fares against Ronaldo. Both lack the sheer pace or the physicality but both are smarter than to go heads on against Ronaldo. Are you playing a highline @Downcast ? Looks like one although the tactics imply differently.

Also regarding the Rivaldo point, he wasn't exactly a playmaker but still a slightly dominant type who wasn't necessarily a facilitator (ala Rivelino for example) but more of a goalscorer and not really an incisive and a mobile wing-forward (ala Blokhin/Stoichkov etc who were always on the move), Rivaldo's game was slightly more idiosyncratic and he did like to have the ball at his feet (though he was capable of making some excellent runs off it) and loved to exhibit his flair, take long-shots etc - not exactly an economical player in that sense. His incisiveness should complement Maradona and Messi's balls to the inside left channel in particular, but I'd have preferred to see a more mobile (for want of a better word) wing-forward there. Really peculiar player to pin down though, so of course, it's understandable if others view him as slotting in seamlessly here.

Ultimately though, Downcast's midfield's ability to impose themselves here and onenil's defense could prove to be the difference here. Can't help but feel Ronaldo will get on the scoresheet here but equally so, I can see Robson-Platini being a deadly combination, if allowed to take control over the midfield.
 
harms said:
Any particular reason behind Maldini/Bergomi choice, @Joga Bonito - I saw you talking about picking "other Italian" in the thread.

Already read @Downcast 's explanation. Anyone remember how well Camacho looked on the right? Don't remember Spain being particularly impressive in 1982, they also conceded in all but 1 game in that tournament - but maybe Camacho personally looked great? Still Bergomi was an obvious choice for me (also helps with Scirea "issues" - not really issues) - but the unpredictable choice was, somehow, predictable.
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In the second phase he played in some odd midfield/defender central'ish role and generally IMO covered holes in the team as you said Spain weren't particularly impressive. In the second phase (against England and West Germany) he played as a RCB or DM, wouldn't say man marking someone rather than moving through zones.



He's #2 in the video.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I really don't get it why @Downcast has put Camacho on the right. :confused: Even Maldini there is better - has started as a RB and is complete enough not to mention perfect with dealing with forwards that cut in.

Bergomi to face Rivaldo would've been perfect while Camacho would also (albeit a level below) be a nice fit for Messi.


The one in the OP is Rivaldo's favorite position. That's why Ronaldinho played on the right with Ronaldo center to accommodate them all in one team.

Thought you'd go with a RB moving inside (Bergomi/Krol) who can also cover for Scirea moving vertically. Not that Maldini is a bad pick mate, but I really don't see that defensive unit being functional enough to stop onenil attack at this point.
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2 reasons:

- I did want the number 1 to keep Messi under control: so here we have Maldini.

- I did know onenil wasn't in a position to hire a left-winger (Team Joga had Baggio unlikely to be picked by onenil). Rivaldo is strong and powerful so I've rejected the options Olguin and Dani Alvès) because Camacho is widely considered as a versatile tough FB.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
It is centrally focused but its not as if Ronaldo or Maradona never drifted out wide to use that space when its available. I think the footballing IQ is high enough here for that not to be too much of an issue considering . And if it was in a real match, a more attacking fb could be brought on.

(I already know what EAP is going to say though as he says same about all my tactics)
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To be honest I kinda knew what you had in mind putting Andrade(the history behind Garrincha and Nilton), but IMO Nilton still is the better pick, especially with getting Figueroa as he offers more going forward. Maradona and Ronaldo will drift to the wings of course, but would've preferred at least one more attacking full back in your set up.
 
Would've preferred Nilton to start here too, he wasn't your usual overlapping wingback but I think he was much needed on the left with central-oriented attacking unit. I understand the Garrincha concern but I wouldn't trust Andrade to deal with him too, so the cons outweigh pros for me.
 
Too many GOATS for anybody to reasonably say 1 team will win. When I did drafts, we were moving away from this... Both teams are mouthwatering though
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Re: Camacho

Yes, he played CB at times but more like a LCB like this:

300px-Real_Madrid_vs_1._FC_K%C3%B6ln_1986-04-30.svg.png


Surely asking him to play RB against Rivaldo is not optimizing Camacho and provides Rivaldo with an advantage.
Click to expand...

Miguel Munoz was very creative. Spain 1984 below

975034_Spain.jpg
 
Ballsy reinforcements. Think Camacho on the right is fine. Neither team is particularly complementary at the back, and there are a couple of disjoints from back-to-front on both sides, but both defences should get the basics done well enough.
 
Don't see a problem with Camacho as a man marker, if that's what he is supposed to be here.

He famously took out Cruyff playing (I think) as a nominal RB of sorts.

That '82 role strikes me as something different, though. I'll buy him as being tasked with pestering Rivaldo, but that's about it. You have to sell him as an actual man marker, in my opinion.
 
Joga Bonito said:
His incisiveness should complement Maradona and Messi's balls to the inside left channel in particular, but I'd have preferred to see a more mobile (for want of a better word) wing-forward there.
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I can understand your concern particularly since OneNil already has Maradona and Messi to provide the creativity, but having said that, Rivaldo was excellent at working with flair players who were as good/better than him (like the other 2 Brazilian R's). He'd still work very well with Ronaldo and Maradona here, for me.

Ultimately, a mobile wide forward would be a tougher test for Camacho, but even then, his synergy with Maradona and Ronaldo would cause Downcast's back line several issues, particularly since Rivaldo's movement is still excellent (even though he isn't necessarily an Energizer bunny).
 
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Joga Bonito said:
Simple really, Camacho against Messi wasn't going to end well whilst I reckoned, putting the clamps on Messi (who looked more at ease in this set-up) was more important than Rivaldo here. Downcast required an upgrade there whilst he could afford to get Camacho who has played on the right a few times for Real as a man-marker (can't exactly recall which exactly but came across a few when watching Schuster, and he was a rugged and a very good man-marker and a good fit for such a role). Think he would do a good job against Rivaldo (in this set-up) myself.
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Happy that somebody has understood my rationale.

Joga Bonito said:
Interesting to see how Scirea-Moore fares against Ronaldo. Both lack the sheer pace or the physicality but both are smarter than to go heads on against Ronaldo. Are you playing a highline @Downcast ? Looks like one although the tactics imply differently.
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One of the key issues but not the only one! A highline would be a risky strategy here given the talent of Maradona/Ronaldo.

My strategy is pretty sample:

- Maldini: man-marking on Messi
- Camacho on Rivaldo
- The idea is to have 4 central defensive players to limit the impact of Ronaldo-Maradona.

In other words, I present:

- 6 slaves focused on defending
- Platini as the key man to bring balance. Maradona is - of course - a greater player but Platini is precious defensively
- The 3 other artists

Joga Bonito said:
Also regarding the Rivaldo point, he wasn't exactly a playmaker but still a slightly dominant type who wasn't necessarily a facilitator (ala Rivelino for example) but more of a goalscorer and not really an incisive and a mobile wing-forward (ala Blokhin/Stoichkov etc who were always on the move), Rivaldo's game was slightly more idiosyncratic and he did like to have the ball at his feet (though he was capable of making some excellent runs off it) and loved to exhibit his flair, take long-shots etc - not exactly an economical player in that sense. His incisiveness should complement Maradona and Messi's balls to the inside left channel in particular, but I'd have preferred to see a more mobile (for want of a better word) wing-forward there. Really peculiar player to pin down though, so of course, it's understandable if others view him as slotting in seamlessly here.

Ultimately though, Downcast's midfield's ability to impose themselves here and onenil's defense could prove to be the difference here. Can't help but feel Ronaldo will get on the scoresheet here but equally so, I can see Robson-Platini being a deadly combination, if allowed to take control over the midfield.
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Thanks. It seems we share the same understanding of the style of play of Rivaldo.

Let's be clear:

- I'm a massive fan of Rivaldo and when I was child I considered him as a better player than Zidane, more complete because he was capacle to score a lot.
- I've chosen Camacho because onennil wasn't in a position to pick a true winger or wing-forward like Ronaldinho
 
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