The “Ole In” Brigade

Lentwood said:
By this logic wouldn’t our fans have been calling for Klopp to be sacked after his first season/second season?
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2015 2016 wasn't even Klopp first season, not a full season to be precise . And he guided bunch of mediocre players to two finals in first 7 months. But hey just ignore those parts because it doesn't fit your agenda.

What did Ole do in his first year here? We went from 7th to 6th last year, beat PSG in a game that they gifted us 3 goals wooo. Sold Lukaku, Herrera, Smalling when in fact Ole wanted to keep them but they all wanted to leave

Such a huge progression.
 
Can Lentwood explain how Moyes had no plan, no vision, but Ole does?

Every fecking manager has a plan and a vision, Moyes just had better results with his vision and no fecker was trying to make out they were more intelligent for backing him to stay at least 3 years.

Absolutely ludicrous. Ole, by getting rid of some of the more ”unlikeable players” has played an absolute blinder, that’s all some of you care about & is enough to convince you that despite shocking performances and results that Ole is the right man. Personally I’d prefer a few more twats in the squad and better reaults. Get rid of the twats when you’ve got players and a coached system to replace them.
 
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dove said:
No evidence of Ole being a poor coach? I would say there is absolutely no evidence Ole is even a League 1 level coach.
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I’ve seen loads of league 1 managers beat City, Chelsea and Spurs in the same season.

Good point.
 
Lentwood said:
As a proud member of the “Ole in” brigade, I’m getting tired of seeing the same lazy criticisms of us/the manager gathering likes on the Caf and Twitter.

I wanted to address them all in one place, hopefully some fellow sensible supporters will be able to add their own arguments

5) “We’re Man Utd, we should be doing X,Y....”

Means nothing. We’re currently an irrelevant club with mediocre players run by a clown and owned by shareholders looking to make a quick dollar. We’ve no divine right to win anything or sign any player because “we’re Man Utd”
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I was kind of with you up until point 5. This is the kind of small club mentality that could cause a lot of damage, We are not an irrelevant club and although yes we don't have a divine right to anything, it's exactly because we are Man United that we should be throwing our weight around and relentlessly pursuing the top honours and players.
 
I’m Ole in. It’s the biggest, toughest job in football after 6 years of disasters caused by poor planning, decisions and management. The club needs to be in safe hands to reinstate the man united ways and ole is the right man to do it. The outlook is far more positive in my view than it ever was, return of pogba, potential new signings, we are close to becoming a proper team again
 
RedPed said:
I was kind of with you up until point 5. This is the kind of small club mentality that could cause a lot of damage, We are not an irrelevant club and although yes we don't have a divine right to anything, it's exactly because we are Man United that we should be throwing our weight around and relentlessly pursuing the top honours and players.
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Money? Unfortunately we’re not in a position to get the worlds elite without throwing money at them or the agents. That’s the major draw for players these days. Ole is trying to change that by looking for players that want to be here for this so called weight.
 
peridigm said:
Ole is trying to change that by looking for players that want to be here for this so called weight.
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And let’s be honest, it’s more likely that we’ll end up a shitter team for it whilst Chelsea & City pay the going rate and Klopp’s Liverpool become more and more attractive.

Ole needs to be an absolute genius of a coach and talent spotter to make this method work.
 
The OP doesn't bring any answers to any critical point bar "meh, I was expecting us to be crap".
 
Lentwood said:
By this logic wouldn’t our fans have been calling for Klopp to be sacked after his first season/second season?
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Lets compare Klopp and Solskjær then shall we?

After 18 games this season we're 8th with 25 points and our goal difference is +4.

After 18 games in the 2016-17 season, Klopp's first full season, he had them in 2nd place with 40 points and goal difference at +24.

Liverpool ended their season in 4th place with 76 points, a pretty solid first full season if you ask me and Liverpool's progress under Klopp was pretty clear to see. However I just can't see us ending 4th or amassing anything close to 76 points under Solskjær.
 
Lentwood said:
As a proud member of the “Ole in” brigade, I’m getting tired of seeing the same lazy criticisms of us/the manager gathering likes on the Caf and Twitter.

I wanted to address them all in one place, hopefully some fellow sensible supporters will be able to add their own arguments

1) “The love for Ole is all based on nostalgia and reverence for an ex-Red”

Not true. I’ve never seen a single argument from a pro-Ole supporter saying that he should remain in the job because he is an ex-player/club legend. This argument has been made up by the anti-Ole brigade, who have then proceeded to get angry at their own argument.

2) “Utd have made their worst start/worst away record/worst this/worse that”

Could. Not. Give. A. Monkeys. Anybody who expected any more from this season, with this squad and these players was always setting themselves up for a fall. Re-adjust your expectations based on reality.

3) “Ole is a failed Cardiff manager”

So what? People need to get over this idea that the success or failure of a club begins and ends with the manager.

4) “Jose Mourinho blah blah blah”

I liked Jose but with the benefit of hindsight, he had completely lost the plot in that 3rd season. Also, the man left over a year ago...let’s stop going on about it.

5) “We’re Man Utd, we should be doing X,Y....”

Means nothing. We’re currently an irrelevant club with mediocre players run by a clown and owned by shareholders looking to make a quick dollar. We’ve no divine right to win anything or sign any player because “we’re Man Utd”

6) “Ole is a poor Coach”

No evidence for this. People are obsessed with the idea of coaching but (most) of these players are 20+....you can’t make them play slicker, faster football just by “coaching”. Same way Pep can’t coach his philosophy to certain players, difference is City have been well-run for ten years so their squad needs minor tweaks every year not major surgery.
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For the remainder of the season I am Ole in. I would hope though that we are lining up a top manager for the summer.

To address those points:
1. Of course no one is going to say "I support Ole because of an emotional bias". It doesn't mean emotions don't play a huge role in that. The part of me that wants to see Ole do well is pure nostalgia and romanticism, not logic.
2. Ole himself built these expectations where "after pre-season" became the catch phrase after bad results.
3. It's perfectly valid to look to a manager's past record. It's pretty mindless not to do so. That being said, he's not summed up by "failed Cardiff manager".
4. Yes, Jose had lost the plot in the 3rd season. No argument.
5. Again, Ole himself built expectations here. Listen to any interview he did in his first 3 months as interim manager. It's certainly not close to Jose's "heritage" rant. It's more "glory glory Man Utd".
6. There is no evidence that he has what it takes to play more than one way of football. The burden of proof should be on those that contend he is actually a good coach.

Not sure this needed a new thread btw.
 
Lentwood said:
Granted...but just because this happens doesn’t make it right or an effective strategy
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Right or wrong, its reality. Especially at big clubs like United. If he loses one or two more against mid table opposition, he could literally be shown the door within weeks.
 
There’s no reason whatsoever that a top manager needs to play half a season as shit as this with this poor results because he’s rebuilding, especially not after spending a shit load of money on 3 players, 2 of them amongst the most expensive in the World EVER in their positions, it’s absolute bollocks.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
And let’s be honest, it’s more likely that we’ll end up a shitter team for it whilst Chelsea & City pay the going rate and Klopp’s Liverpool become more and more attractive.

Ole needs to be an absolute genius of a coach and talent spotter to make this method work.
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We’re paying the going rate for purchases but none of the players we signed with Ole are on inflated wages like Sanchez or Lukaku were. If we didn’t sign Maguire he’d have signed for another club this season or the next. Maybe we paid £10m-£20m more than a lesser club would have to or we’re willing to pay but Leicester didn’t have to sell him. We needed a better CB.

I am concerned we may have made the wrong decision with DDG’s new contract and wages. I’ve been in the let him leave camp for a couple of years now. Now we have a keeper on high wages and out of form. The test for Ole is whether he has the balls to drop DDG for a few games to bring him back into reality. If he does not, I will start to lose respect for him. I’m already on the fence over continuing to play Lingard and Martial.

Now that Pogba is back we will see some changes in Ole’s tactics and team selections. Does he drop Fred or McTominay or does he opt to play Pogba as well in a 4-3-3 and drop the #10?
 
red woppit said:
Very well put, but I expect you will get a lot of replies in the negative from posters who think that changing the manager/coaches will suddenly bring us riches beyond our wildest dreams. It's nice to know that there are some people, like ourselves, who live in the real world.
Merry Christmas Lentwood.
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Works for every other big team. Liverpool went through 5 coaches in 7 years to land on Klopp. He is on course to win the CL and Prem in back to back seasons. They failed their way to success. City basically swapped manager midway through the season whilst their current one was in a title race. Should they have just stuck with Manuel? Virtually every big side chops and changes until they get the best one. It's standard. United are the ones clinging to sentiment
 
Lentwood said:
The number of players he has allowed to leave permanently or on loan

The choosing of young players over mediocre senior players

The focus on signing players at the right age rather than quick fixes
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Allowing senior players to leave & not replacing them isn’t to the betterment of the club. If he is responsible for ‘letting’ players leave then he is also responsible for the lack of replacements. Likewise if we’re blaming Woodward for the lack of signings then we’re saying he is responsible for transfers & he should get credit for selling the deadwood, not OgS. We aren’t actually privy to how our transfers occur but if we’re crediting someone for outgoings we should be criticising/crediting the same person for incomings.

Young players over mediocre talented ones? I said at the beginning of the season Mata would start more games than Gomes; as would Ashley Young start more than Brandon Williams. Are we honestly crediting him with utilising Greenwood as a salvation sub with 20 minutes to go every time his tactics are going wrong in a League game? We concede week in week out & have a small chance of Top 4 yet Lindelof starts over Axel. He’s played the likes of Chong when they’re not ready, that isn’t good management.

Signing players of the ‘right age’, I’d much prefer we just sign players of adequate quality. Maguire was 25/26 & signed for £80mil - time will tell but it’s hardly a bargain signing. There’s no problem signing ‘older’ players at the right price - the issue is we’ve signed the wrong players consistently for near a decade. I’d sign RvP from Arsenal again in a heartbeat, age isn’t the issue - our scouting is.

Overall none of these ‘team first’ moves have equated in progress on the pitch; there is a notion that by going through the hardship we will suddenly become a good side without any actual signs of progress on the pitch.

His recent comments about this season being a chance to prepare for next season are the exact comments he made last season when our form fell off a cliff & are actually the most self serving comments you’ll hear a manager make.

Whether I/you believe he is the right man or not, the points you list are hardly things to champion the man for.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
So we’re giving OgS credit for sales then criticising Woodward for the lack of buys?

Surely you don’t ‘sanction’ sales without insisting on replacements.

If people are giving OgS the praise for getting rid of undererformers why is Woodward criticised for incomings?

The truth is no one posting on this forum sits in on transfer discussions so to conveniently use transfers out as something to praise OgS for then blame Woodward for none coming in is simply further proof of the ‘Ole in’ crowd attempting to find anything to praise him for.

I’m more than happy to praise OgS for offloading players but in that case he must hold some responsibility for no one coming in to replace them.
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Yeah I had no problem with Ole offloading players that didn't want to be here. However he should also have got in replacements rather than just relying on just the youth.

He needed a blend of youth and experience which he definitely hasn't got at the moment. His idea of experience is people like Young & Jones who shouldn't still be at the club.

Neville is bang on about Utd needing to bring in some experience in January,however you just know Ole won't be doing that as his targets won't be available then.
 
RedPed said:
I was kind of with you up until point 5. This is the kind of small club mentality that could cause a lot of damage, We are not an irrelevant club and although yes we don't have a divine right to anything, it's exactly because we are Man United that we should be throwing our weight around and relentlessly pursuing the top honours and players.
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No, my point is we need to lose the arrogance that comes with thinking that just because “we’re Man Utd” we can buy our way out of trouble or the issues we have will somehow just fix themselves if we can appoint the “right” manager

I’m convinced the club have actually come to terms with this post-Jose.
 
I don't tactically Ole is good enough to be here next season.

However - if I was Woodward I'd tell him to continue to fast track the youngsters he thinks are good enough so we go in to next season with a younger full squad and a new manager.

If Ole loves this club, then he should do this correctly - if Poch or who ever wants this job, then they should wait until summer.

Everyone is happy & potentially even better managerial candidates later on.
 
Well with such a well constructed set of arguments how could anyone possibly disagree...
 
Lentwood said:
No, my point is we need to lose the arrogance that comes with thinking that just because “we’re Man Utd” we can buy our way out of trouble or the issues we have will somehow just fix themselves if we can appoint the “right” manager

I’m convinced the club have actually come to terms with this post-Jose.
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If anyone is showing arrogance it's you by assuming Ole is going to fix it by simply being given time.
 
Lentwood said:
No, my point is we need to lose the arrogance that comes with thinking that just because “we’re Man Utd” we can buy our way out of trouble or the issues we have will somehow just fix themselves if we can appoint the “right” manager

I’m convinced the club have actually come to terms with this post-Jose.
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Actually for most clubs appointing the right manager and buying the right players is excatly what's turned their fortunes around.
 
Shamana said:
Actually for most clubs appointing the right manager and buying the right players is excatly what's turned their fortunes around.
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It’s so hard to grasp such a simple concept, especially for the cult.
 
When a club goes through a crisis, quick fixes might have some success initially but deepen the crisis long-term which goes some way in explaining the post-Fergie period.

Going beyond quick fixes and applying a successful strategy might initially deepen the crisis but have success long-term. Fergie went through crisis moments too and was on the verge of being fired.

The significant difference between Fergie and Ole is that their pre-United managerial careers are totally different. We were patient with Fergie because we knew he was a big success at Aberdeen. So, the point that it doesn't matter that Ole was a failure at Cardiff is weak. How can we be optimistic that Ole's strategy is the right for the club given his lack of success at top level?

The excuse with the quality of the squad is poor too. SU were in the Championship last season and are doing better than United, especially away from home. The performances against mid- and bottom table teams are poor and the resulst are quite bad. It's difficult to justify that with the quality of the squad.
 
Lentwood said:
No, my point is we need to lose the arrogance that comes with thinking that just because “we’re Man Utd” we can buy our way out of trouble or the issues we have will somehow just fix themselves if we can appoint the “right” manager

I’m convinced the club have actually come to terms with this post-Jose.
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That's literally what all clubs do and what all successful clubs have done in order to become successful. No club has magically found success.
 
Gopher Brown said:
Well that's not true at all.

This is a single thread when this site is full of critical threads.
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Hmm I guess you probably are right based on that. Also I haven't checked the Ole in or out poll in a while, I assume that's gone more in favour of ole out now.
 
The Ole in brigade is basically Woodward in.

Ole will do anything to save his job and will do anything Woodward tells him, because he’s completely out of his depth.
 
LJJT said:
I’m Ole in. It’s the biggest, toughest job in football
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Is it though? We are pretty much the only club calling themselves as “the biggest club in the world” but having quite literally zero expectations. I think we are the dream job for any manager. We have the resources, just make the CL and you are perfectly safe. Most other big clubs wouldn’t be content with that.
 
LJJT said:
I’m Ole in. It’s the biggest, toughest job in football after 6 years of disasters caused by poor planning, decisions and management. The club needs to be in safe hands to reinstate the man united ways and ole is the right man to do it. The outlook is far more positive in my view than it ever was, return of pogba, potential new signings, we are close to becoming a proper team again
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So you want a novice overseeing it? Sound logic.
I mean how can a guy with little to no experience be a right man? It's not a fairy tale. In real world inexperience gets you killed.
 
Look guys, there is absolutely no evidence that a coach who got Cardiff relegated then had them languishing near the bottom of the championship before he got sacked and has 6 wins in 18 games this season including losses to Watford and Newcastle is a poor coach, so leave it out!

In Ole we rust.. I mean... trust.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Look guys, there is absolutely no evidence that a coach who got Cardiff relegated then had them languishing near the bottom of the championship before he got sacked and has 6 wins in 18 games this season including losses to Watford and Newcastle is a poor coach, so leave it out!

In Ole we rust.. I mean... trust.
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Theres a good boy. Theres a Top Red™.
 
It's really frustrating because we've seen how good we can be when we're on it. The inconsistency is just mind-blowingly baffling. Just the wins with Sheffield United, Villa and Watford alone, which we should have won would have put us 4th. Imagine going into the Newcastle game tomorrow on 4th!!

My biggest gripe with Ole is the perceived indifference he shows when we drop points. I want to see him really pissed off even if just the once. I was firmly in, now I'm 50/50. I will make up my mind after this Christmas period as to whether he should stay for the rest of the season or just bin him in January.
 
dove said:
Is it though? We are pretty much the only club calling themselves as “the biggest club in the world” but having quite literally zero expectations. I think we are the dream job for any manager. We have the resources, just make the CL and you are perfectly safe. Most other big clubs wouldn’t be content with that.
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Aye, the Arsenal job for example is much harder. At least we back our managers in the market.
 
Lentwood said:
By this logic wouldn’t our fans have been calling for Klopp to be sacked after his first season/second season?
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To be fair, Liverpool had accumulated 40 points with 45 goals scored after 18 games in Klopp's second season at the club. And the first ½ season ended on a somewhat optimistic note with them beating us to ultimately the reach the Europa League final with only 1 loss since the start of Gameweek 30 in the league. Solskjær's United isn't on a comparable plane because we are far behind with 25 points and 26 goals scored after 18 games in his second season at the club. And last season we went into a tailspin after the win vs. Paris Saint-Germain...losing 5 matches since the start of Gameweek 30 in the league (which left a distinctly bitter taste in the mouth).

Furthermore, you could see the rapid progression in their structures/style as they absorbed Klopp's instructions after just 2-3 months ⁠— this aspect is kinda abstract and subjective, but probably even more important than raw point/goal totals because once the basics are laid and optimized and a consistent system is fostered, you see incremental improvement with automatism and the acquisition of better (or more suitable) personnel. After a year under Ole, United play with a vague and disjointed style, and that lack of cohesion and consistency should give even his most ardent supporters a bit of pause. Even at a club like Borussia Mönchengladbach, which appointed a new manager in the summer, you can see the quick transition to Rose/Marić's style — while they sit 2nd on the Bundesliga table after 17 games.

Additionally, you have to consider Klopp's background when he was given the Liverpool job — while Dortmund were somewhat dysfunctional in his last season, he had already won 2 league titles in a Top 3 league, reached a European Cup final while beating Real Madrid, and left an imprint on the era...even experienced managers like Heynckes were using some of his principles with their teams (ultimately leading to the Treble at Bayern). While he wasn't a pioneer he was definitely someone who advanced the tactics and preparation for his generation and Liverpool's board-members and fans could trust him because of his history in some of the highest echelons of football. Solskjær's CV before the appointment at United was objectively much weaker.

There is some merit to Ole — he isn't bad in an absolute sense — and a lot of us want to be optimistic in a romantic leap-of-faith way because he clearly loves the club, but his position will become untenable if we don't improve in quick order. And it wouldn't hurt to at least sound out potential replacements, instead of being cocksure and then scrambling if things go tits up — which is unfortunately our modus operandi under current administration going back to Fergie's retirement where we didn't even have the semblance of a cogent plan. Mostly because of 2 reasons:

1. Top 4 is still within our reach if we go on a run or undergo a new manager bounce/rejuvenation. If we don't improve and someone who can become a medium term manager is available (or extractable from his current club), we should be proactive/decisive and move quickly while the season is salvageable. Missing out on Champions League qualification once or twice is pardonable, but the 4th time in 7th seasons for a club that considers itself on the same level as the contemporary European elite would send out poor signals of our sporting ambitions/growth and also lead to significant financial penalty.

2. If a new manager trains us for some games this season and has first hand experience with the players (including their personality and characteristics), he will enter the summer with a decent basis and actively consolidate in the market and training camps. If we simply limp towards the end of the season and then part ways with Ole because of some clause (like Champions League non-qualification), the new manager will enter the summer with very little first hand knowledge, and will take a few months to figure things out (which will set us back next season, too). We should be very, very careful and methodical when the upcoming summer window will be harder, or more competitive, than usual because of the European Championship.
 
Lentwood said:
How about Pep? Barely scraping 4th with footballs most expensive squad?

You think this place would have been an oasis of calm and reasoned logic?
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Pep was literally the best manager in the world at the time. He had earned time based on his incredible record at Barca and Bayern including 2 UCL's. Ole's only record at the top level is with Cardiff but he has blind faith from people like you based on literally nothing.
 
matherto said:
I don't think he's a good manager or the right man for the job when we're finally back on top but I really can't be arsed going through another manager change, another philosophy change, another round of shit transfers and unknown decisions about the dross we've got in or not.

I'd rather just take the fact that Ole froze out the likes of Matic, Jones, etc and got rid of Lukaku, Sanchez, Smalling, etc and brought in decent young players because that suggests to me that we've realised our failures from the past decade and we're finally doing something about it.

Right now the club is at the bottom of the curve. I hate the Glazers and Woodward is a pile of shite but it seems like something has finally clicked at the club and I'd rather suck it up and see what happens right now than do the same shit over and over again expecting a different result. That's the definition of insanity and United fans are suffering from it through losing SAF, getting Moyes, sacking Moyes, getting LVG, sacking LVG, getting Mourinho and sacking Mourinho. It's time we stopped.

At some point fans have got to accept that yes, we're shit but we can't keep changing things repeateedly because we'll get stuck in a loop so we need to have one plan and stick to it and see where it goes.

We're all spoilt by SAF and the 20+ years of unbridled success he gave us. Now's the time the show we're United fans rather than glory fans and have patience for once. We've had no patience whatsoever since SAF left (not that I would've with Moyes anyway).
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Lentwood said:
Agree
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So neither of you think Ole is the man to lead us into any future success but you're backing him because he loaned out Sanchez and sold Lukaku. Truly baffling.
 
dove said:
Is it though? We are pretty much the only club calling themselves as “the biggest club in the world” but having quite literally zero expectations. I think we are the dream job for any manager. We have the resources, just make the CL and you are perfectly safe. Most other big clubs wouldn’t be content with that.
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I've written it before here, but the whole "biggest club in the world" mantra that we United fans spout incessantly is cringeworthy. No one cares about how many fans we have in Asia or how many tractor deals Woody can arrange if we are a Europa League level side.
We need a reset, with a new group of football people (manager, DoF....whatever get's it done) that are not obsessing about our history or trying to replicate what was done before. Sir Alex was unique. The best manager ever in my book. Don't try repeating his methods because you won't pull them off. We need to be innovative and most of all be hungry. Hunger to win, to run relentlessly in every game and run opposing teams ragged. That's what I want to see.
 
Lentwood said:
As a proud member of the “Ole in” brigade, I’m getting tired of seeing the same lazy criticisms of us/the manager gathering likes on the Caf and Twitter.

I wanted to address them all in one place, hopefully some fellow sensible supporters will be able to add their own arguments

2) “Utd have made their worst start/worst away record/worst this/worse that”

Could. Not. Give. A. Monkeys. Anybody who expected any more from this season, with this squad and these players was always setting themselves up for a fall. Re-adjust your expectations based on reality.

Ridiculous - is it expected we would be outplayed by the lower half of the Premier League? Schooled home and away by teams like Newcastle, a terrible Watford team? Your point was about expectations. It's simply ridiculous to suggest that on Boxing Day we should be level on points with Newcastle unless we are massively underperforming

our win % without penalties is 7% - truly pathetic for a club with a wage budget in the top 3 in the World

3) “Ole is a failed Cardiff manager”

So what? People need to get over this idea that the success or failure of a club begins and ends with the manager.

Experience counts for something in football and in life. Experienced managers can learn from mistakes. Ole hasn't learned from his... our results and performances are not even close to being acceptable

with his failures in the Premier League there is no evidence of his ability to turn this around.

6) “Ole is a poor Coach”

No evidence for this. People are obsessed with the idea of coaching but (most) of these players are 20+....you can’t make them play slicker, faster football just by “coaching”. Same way Pep can’t coach his philosophy to certain players, difference is City have been well-run for ten years so their squad needs minor tweaks every year not major surgery.

no evidence for this? are the Watford/Sheffield United/Newcastle/West Ham/Rochdale etc players technically better than ours? no chance- so why do we look so devoid of a plan against teams with a low block - a lack of coaching


unless we are counter attacking we have as much threat as a toddler with a water pistol. A lack of movement, overloading etc could be addressed on the training pitch

tactically Ole is wanting - why oh why are we playing 4-2-3-1 when our number 10 options are so laughable

its not just tactical play- the players are weak mentally- they arent confident going into these games. Coaching has an impact on this.

no evidence? what have you been watching- I'd put it to you.... what evidence is there that good coaching is going on? McTominay is the only player Ole has improved
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I thought I'd just address the important points you made. The points that are relevant to him retaining his job.

see above
 
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