That was actually a much improved performance

It’s been a diabolical start, injuries are an issue, but we’ve still been woeful more often than not. No excuses for losing at home to palace.
 
noodlehair said:
Much as I want to have patience with Ten Hag after last season, Klopp and Arteta didn't spend £50m to put Mason Mount in their central midfield, and didn't spend nearly £100m to end up picking Pellistri on the right wing.

Good managers go through bad patches but it generally isn’t them who are dragging the team's performance level down, and they will generally get to the bottom of what is.

Unfortunately its very hard to argue that ETH isn't at the very least a contributor to why we're playing badly. Nearly every game this season he's made decisions that have made very little sense and have had a clear negative impact.
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Mount was one of our better players yesterday. He actually used the ball well and looked to move it quickly, compared to a lot of those around him.
 
Shakesy said:
Rashford and Casemiro are mercurial players, capable of magic. Dropping them would be madness.
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This isn’t what modern football is. Modern football requires a cohesive team unit, not moments of brilliance. Those 2 struggle to keep hold of the football.
 
It was a disgraceful performance highlighting the issue that United cannot created clear cut chances over a sustained period. Attackers working off scraps, the midfield hasn't imposed itself in any of the games.
 
Red Star One said:
Losing 4 out of 7 in the league while only facing one team from last seasons top5 yet is a sack worthy form. It’s not an immediate sack, but make it 5 losses in 8 and it’s desperate.
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its obvious to me that any half decent organised team will turn us over this year. We were shit in our wins as well - shouldn't have beat wolves, lucky it was 10 man forest with the 2-0 headstart, and burnley are looking the worst team in the league. Thats where we are at.
 
Crimson King said:
Mount was one of our better players yesterday. He actually used the ball well and looked to move it quickly, compared to a lot of those around him.
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But this is the bear minimum how many midfielders in world football offer up the same contribution you just highlighted. The biggest issue with EtH is that he has a significant hand in recruitment and some of the signings are already questionable less than a season into the mix. I think it's undeniable that Erik is a good manager but he's not so good when coupled with the extra responsibility United love to pile onto the managers.
 
Garethw said:
Bruno and Rashford are literally the only two players in the entire squad that I can see scoring more than ten goals and both are absolutely shit right now.

We massively struggled for goals last season and it was obvious that a top class striker was our number one priority. Instead we spent £70 million on a rookie that is nowhere close to being ready at this level to score 20-30 goals.
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I agree that Hojland is nowhere close to being ready, but it's not like we're creating chances that he's missing.

We've scored 7 goals. Brighton are top scorers on 19 without a top class striker, Spurs who sold Kane have 10 more goals than us, West Ham 6 more.

It's not a stick Kane in and we'd be fine problem. Our play in the final 3rd is terrible.
 
noodlehair said:
Much as I want to have patience with Ten Hag after last season, Klopp and Arteta didn't spend £50m to put Mason Mount in their central midfield, and didn't spend nearly £100m to end up picking Pellistri on the right wing.

Good managers go through bad patches but it generally isn’t them who are dragging the team's performance level down, and they will generally get to the bottom of what is.

Unfortunately its very hard to argue that ETH isn't at the very least a contributor to why we're playing badly. Nearly every game this season he's made decisions that have made very little sense and have had a clear negative impact.
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Funnily enough there were a lot of reports both Klopp and Arteta wanted Mount. He’s absolutely the least of our troubles.
 
100 said:
We’ve a clear issue with balance - our performance may look better but it’s sacrificing any ability to create or score goals.

two modes
- controlled, can’t create at all
- no control, can create slightly more

We’re right back to van Gaal
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Again also ignoring the fact that Palace were sitting back letting us control possession. Which isn't actually "control" at all when you're a goal down the whole game and barely manage to force a save.

I very much doubt a midfield of Casemiro on his own is going to dictate a game against any team interested in contesting that area.

The set up yesterday to me suggested ETH has learnt absolutely nothing at all from our first two games. He just went with the exact same thing again and at the heart of it were the exact same problems. Stifled creativity and crazy midfield positioning from confused players.
 
andersj said:
There was a few poor individual performances.
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I think if the majority of players are culpable, "a few" isn't the best description. I don't agree with the OP. It was not only a bad result, it was a bad performance as well. Those matches happen, I certainly don't like that it is heating up for the manager, wish that wouldn't be the case, but denying the "obvious" doesn't seem to be necessary. Bad games happen. OP laid out multiple reasons for it and most of them are plausible. Still doesn't take away that yesterdays match was a bad one. It can't be a good one because "only a few" were subpar. The best players yesterday, Varane, Dalot and Mount played decent to good. Thats three out of 11. The rest was average at best with a few like Rashford, Lindelof, Casemiro, Pellistri and Amrabat to a degree sticking out negatively. That isn't a net total of of good.
 
Dorris said:
Funnily enough there were a lot of reports both Klopp and Arteta wanted Mount. He’s absolutely the least of our troubles.
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Playing with Mason Mount as a CM is absolutely not the least of our troubles and as long as we keep doing it we're going to keep losing games.

I keep saying this but doing nothing doesn't constitute playing well, and if your position is CM it constitutes a fairly major issue. Because it means there is no way for the team to have any control over a game.

I very much doubt Klopp or Arteta would play Mount as a CM in the way Ten Hag is. Arteta spent a lot of money on Rice just to avoid having to do something like that, and Klopp was trying to sign every CM available for the same reason. Ten Hag let a midfielder who had made over 50 appearances leave on the back of signing Mount who had played 0 games in that position. That on the face of it is incredibly dumb, and now we have had 3 awful performances off the back of it, with every less than awful performance being when ETH wasn't able to pick Mount and had to play a midfielder there instead.

Amd even when Mount hasn't been available he's been making some really odd decisions.
 
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Samid said:
We went from getting outclassed by Brighton to not getting equally outclassed by Palace. If we keep up this level of improvement we might be able to give Brentford a difficult game next week.
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The bar for acceptable is on the floor in this place because people want to make sure it’s not Ten Hags fault in any capacity.
 
I'd expect this kind of thread in a Sheffield United forum
 
noodlehair said:
Playing with Mason Mount as a CM is absolutely not the least of our troubles and as long as we keep doing it we're going to keep losing games.

I keep saying this but doing nothing doesn't constitute playing well, and if your position is CM it constitutes a fairly major issue. Because it means there is no way for the team to have any control over a game.

I very much doubt Klopp or Arteta would play Mount as a CM in the way Ten Hag is. Arteta spent a lot of money on Rice just to avoid having to do something like that, and Klopp was trying to sign every CM available for the same reason. Ten Hag let a midfielder who had made over 50 appearances leave on the back of signing Mount who had played 0 games in that position. That on the face of it is incredibly dumb, and now we have had 3 awful performances off the back of it, with every less than awful performance being when ETH wasn't able to pick Mount and had to play a midfielder there instead.

Amd even when Mount hasn't been available he's been making some really odd decisions.
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He’s the only one of our 3 centre mids who actually seems capable of retaining the ball and has good mobility.
Why would they want him then? To stick him on the wing? They both play the same system as us and if they wanted Mount it was clearly for one of those central midfield positions.
 
I really don't think it was.

We were certainly unlucky to lose the game, but I thought a draw was a fair result based on the performance levels. Which means we didn't perform well.

We dominated possession but, as ETH said in reference to the Burnley game, possession isn't the only way to control a match. Palace would have been very pleased with the amount of threat they limited us to.

In fact I would say there was more to take heart from in the performamces in some of our losses.
 
Red Star One said:
I’ve read it was a much improved performance after 0 points with Arsenal and then it was a much improved performance with 0 points against Bayern. Now we’ve much improved to lose against Palace at OT. I think I’m done with improvement for some moment and would like to see some points collected by our team.
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It's pure cope. In all three games, we never looked like we were going to win. The opposition are happy to sit back and let us keep the ball because they know we won't be able to do anything with it. As soon as they actually challenge us for it and get out of second gear (as Bayern did every time we scored), we instantly crumble.
 
Im not after ETH's head. I want him to continue because I don't believe a new manager (again) will fix anything. Having that said I disagree that yesterday was a good performance. Palace let US have the ball and they parked the bus. We the second most expensive squad in the PL couldn't break them down. Considering we had the ball 75% of the time (Because they let us) our xG was terrible. We are clueless in the final third.
 
When you look at football like this then you don't understand football. Palace purposefully set up the tactics to let us have the ball. It would have been impossible for us not to have good stats - passing. Xg etc. If they sat back against Luton it would be the same.
An 80 year old Roy with tactics from when there was dinosaurs literally said Let them have the ball they won't do fk all and we will get a goal from a free kick. And that was us done.
 
A performance where we created so little cant be described as good

We've just lost comfortably to Palace. All that possession and we didnt really beseige their goal

The XG more related to number of shots rather than quality

Between Rashford, Martial, Hojlund, Antony, Garnacho, Pellestri or Sancho I doubt we score much more than 30/35 league goals this season between these attackers the way we are playing - unless Rashford hits one of his purple patches soon
 
I don’t get posters celebrating improved performances v Palace . Created sod all. We lost . Johnstone was bored he make the 2 shots we did have look like great saves . End of
 
Shipperley said:
I have to put the Palace side in to context though, we are without Olise, Franca and Edouard who would make up three of our front four, plus Lerma in midfield who’s been great for us so far. Our attack of Schlupp, Mateta and Ayew is one of the worst I can remember, certainly as bad as anything we’ve fielded since we came back up. There is zero goal threat or even creativity in our team at the moment (excluding Eze) and no game-changers we can bring off the bench either, so it was always going to be the case that you’d dominate the game while we tried to knick something. The stats bear that out.

Make no mistake, it’s a really poor result for you in the circumstances. I thought we’d get battered.
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Certainly puts "Much improved performance" into context.

Standards are falling faster than Falcao at United on here
 
In a game Vs a minnow when you go a goal down the stats will always look fine, because they will let you have the ball (high possession) and you will get lots of quarter chances where the ball is packed and they have pressure on the ball (not appalling xg)

We got a few funny chances yesterday for all the ball we had but we didn't have any ideas at all. Stick the ball in the mixer enough times and you'll get a few half chances
 
Dorris said:
He’s the only one of our 3 centre mids who actually seems capable of retaining the ball and has good mobility.
Why would they want him then? To stick him on the wing? They both play the same system as us and if they wanted Mount it was clearly for one of those central midfield positions.
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Well for a start you don't even know that they did want him. This is the first I've heard of it, from you. Arteta ended up signing Havertz as a no8 after we'd signed Mount btw. I very much doubt he'd have signed Rice just to then sign Mount and play him instead or next to him. That would a genuinely crazy thing to do.

I mean where are you getting this from? He's literally never played in CM before ETH put him there. Now all of a sudden based on that and us looking absolutely atrocious in the few games where he has played there, you think Arsenal and Liverpool would play him as a CM. You don't realise how bonkers a logic this is?

He was retaining the ball because he wasn't trying to do anything with it. You can get anyone to do that. And his mobility amounted to absolutely feck all. I'd rather he have some positional awareness, but then I do think it's unfair to criticise him for not knowing how to position himself in a role that makes no sense. He probably was doing what he was told to.

If we'd wanted ball retention and mobility we'd have been better off playing Hannibal who is at least aggressive with his mobility and has the ability to commit opposition players when on the ball so might actually have created a bit of space.

The crux of the issue is I'm still trying to work out what ETH wants Mount to do, and how whatever that is will be so effective it's worth exposing our midfield for. If its to contribute what he did yesterday then I'm sorry but no matter how you want to dress it up we're in a lot of fecking trouble
 
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Red Star One said:
Losing 4 out of 7 in the league while only facing one team from last seasons top5 yet is a sack worthy form. It’s not an immediate sack, but make it 5 losses in 8 and it’s desperate.
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Well that's a very particular way of looking at it, another way would be that three of the seven losses were to teams currently in the top 6 while going through an injury crisis of ridiculous proportions, with three of the four defeats being pretty damn marginal; the Spurs game swinging on a terrible refereeing decision re handball while we had been dominant without taking chances, being millimetres from winning the game at Arsenal and yesterday Palace scoring with basically their only attack with a goal that was allowed despite having a guy stood offside in front of the goalkeeper (which we had a goal ruled out for last week btw) and another terrible refereeing decision re handball - that's not hiding that fact that we were dreadful yesterday by the way.
 
You can look at the match and think, wow United had a lot of the ball! that's an improvement on previous weeks...but the truth is Palace got the goal and parked the bus.

They let United have the ball, just as much as United kept the ball.
 
Losing 1-0 at home against Palace holds no positives whatsoever. That's a serious lowering of standards if we're desperately trying to look for positives in that. It's a bad result. Terrible. This is the sort of game we should be winning without any problems. It's the sort of game where were expected to thump them 3 or 4-0. Maybe even more so.

Even a home draw is a bad result. Losing is awful. Not going to entertain this notion that is was an improved or better performance because that's just horseshit.
 
andersj said:
There was a few poor individual performances. I think Amrabat made a few significant errors that I hope he will learn from (a few freekicks, including the one for their goal, the turnover where Casemiro was booked among them). Beside that, Crystal Palace barely got a sniff and created feck all.

We actually created a few good chances. We had a xg of 1,6. The same tally as Villa yesterday. And obviouly, that do not include the huge chance that we where robbed and that should have been a penalty. We are not good enough to ensure that we always win these type of games, but most often we would.

I also think the underlying stats were good. We had 290 touches in the attacking third. 44 in the penalty area. CP had 74 and 10. Last sesson we never had more than 279/35 touches in the attacking third/penalty area (against Bmth). Bmth had 119/20 that game.

In terms of possession it was one of our most dominate displays on the ball for the past few years. Maybe even the most dominate if you exclude games like the one against Southampton where they went down one man early.

I’m not saying it was a great game by Man Utd at any measure. We should have created more. We should not have made those errors. But we have four fullbacks and our most influential CB on the ball out injured. Lacking both Shaw and Martinez is a huge blow for our build up play.

Considering all the injuries and noise the first few months I think we did ok yesterday. We should have done better, but it was an improved display from that Burnley game.
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Good post
We’re in a “build the team process”, we’re playing with a new keeper, a new cm, a new attacker and add to that a new rw. On top of that add injuries to more or less the all our starters in the defence + some of the other positions aaaanddd add to that the, relative, many ruling of doubts against us.
We’re shit, yeah! But there are reasons enough for it. Not only lazy and shit players, shit tactics (non existing) and so on.

Better times are coming, I’m sure of that. Hopefully sooner than later.

I’m definitely not Ten Hag out.. even though I can’t see his tactical plans.
 
andersj said:
There was a few poor individual performances. I think Amrabat made a few significant errors that I hope he will learn from (a few freekicks, including the one for their goal, the turnover where Casemiro was booked among them). Beside that, Crystal Palace barely got a sniff and created feck all.

We actually created a few good chances. We had a xg of 1,6. The same tally as Villa yesterday. And obviouly, that do not include the huge chance that we where robbed and that should have been a penalty. We are not good enough to ensure that we always win these type of games, but most often we would.

I also think the underlying stats were good. We had 290 touches in the attacking third. 44 in the penalty area. CP had 74 and 10. Last sesson we never had more than 279/35 touches in the attacking third/penalty area (against Bmth). Bmth had 119/20 that game.

In terms of possession it was one of our most dominate displays on the ball for the past few years. Maybe even the most dominate if you exclude games like the one against Southampton where they went down one man early.

I’m not saying it was a great game by Man Utd at any measure. We should have created more. We should not have made those errors. But we have four fullbacks and our most influential CB on the ball out injured. Lacking both Shaw and Martinez is a huge blow for our build up play.

Considering all the injuries and noise the first few months I think we did ok yesterday. We should have done better, but it was an improved display from that Burnley game.
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This is a pretty good post, we were undone by a very low percentage goal and Palace were entirely reliant on buying set pieces (which a few players were admittedly too keen to give to them).

Sometimes parked busses will get a result, it's why teams employ it so often.
 
Redstain said:
I agree it sets the bar at a ridiculously low standard but perhaps the biggest default is that it's simply not true.
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True. Probably didn't explain it in the correct way, but even trying to contemplate that yesterday was an improved performance as a way of trying to be positive is a indictment of how low we have got.
 
theatreofdreams777 said:
We could get relegated and there will still be people who are desperate to find positives from that.

Results wise our season has been nothing but a disaster this year. Performance wise it's even worse. The sad thing is it was quite predictable in the summer with the transfer window we had. Wasting so much money again on players we didn't even need in the first place. It was obvious we would be going backwards.

Only thing that'll save our season would be club sale.
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Couldn't have said it better. Palace created feck all but somehow we lost ? Is that even a good thing ?
 
Annihilate Now! said:
It wasn't, we were absolutely crap.
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We didn't score but didn't deserve to lose, we were hardly crap, Rashford wasn't at the races, Casemiro was a bit all over the place but as a team we were quite good. Palace got a lucky goal.

If we can keep looking decent with the ball but be more carve out better chances we'll get somewhere
 
Shipperley said:
I have to put the Palace side in to context though, we are without Olise, Franca and Edouard who would make up three of our front four, plus Lerma in midfield who’s been great for us so far. Our attack of Schlupp, Mateta and Ayew is one of the worst I can remember, certainly as bad as anything we’ve fielded since we came back up. There is zero goal threat or even creativity in our team at the moment (excluding Eze) and no game-changers we can bring off the bench either, so it was always going to be the case that you’d dominate the game while we tried to knick something. The stats bear that out.

Make no mistake, it’s a really poor result for you in the circumstances. I thought we’d get battered.
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See this was my perception too.

I thought you were well organised and did well in the circumstances, but I don't remember us playing a Palace team with so little threat on the break and so little intent to even try and have a threat...but then you took the lead fairly early on and there wasn't a single period of the game where anyone can say they would have been thinking "United are going to score here" so what reason was there for you to contest us more in possession and risk being more open? I reckon your players were baffled how we weren't making it a lot more difficult for them.

I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion we improved or played well when the game was basically an enactment of Hodgson's tactical plan where it was almost like he'd instructed our players as well as yours..
 
horsechoker said:
We didn't score but didn't deserve to lose, we were hardly crap, Rashford wasn't at the races, Casemiro was a bit all over the place but as a team we were quite good. Palace got a lucky goal.

If we can keep looking decent with the ball but be more carve out better chances we'll get somewhere
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For the amount of possession we had ( which Palace were more then happy to let us have) we our passing really lacked any pace and conviction. Just slow, plodding, nothing possession with no creativity and poor decisions.

We hardly made any clear cut chances and the only thing we have to hang out hat on is that we should have had a penalty... So yeah, I don't see how this was anything but a crap performance.
 
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