His bowlers would need to have failed for Worrell or Hammond to need to pick up the ball. Just like our bowlers would need to fail for Clarke to get a go. Having the ability to chuck few overs in is immaterial in a contest like this where the quality of the teams is immense. I doubt Shakib would have much of an impact, let alone these guys.
Test Cricket draft: QF : Ijazz17 vs Mani @ National Stadium, Karachi
- Thread starter The Man Himself
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His bowlers would need to have failed for Worrell or Hammond to need to pick up the ball. Just like our bowlers would need to fail for Clarke to get a go. Having the ability to chuck few overs in is immaterial in a contest like this where the quality of the teams is immense. I doubt Shakib would have much of an impact, let alone these guys.
Mitchell as well. Excellent leg spinner. Never bowled much in test cricket, but I wouldn't be afraid to toss the ball to him.
I've already given you like 7 optionswhich is a lot more than Marun's team. Pace and Bounce and the odd googly alone won't win you this match. Every little detail matters and I still believe I have most of those details in my favour.
Christ.
When it comes to older cricketers, stats alone tell half the story. I'd have the opinion of a benaud, a sobers etc as equally valuable. Bedi says he took up spin bowling because of Gupte. Prasanna says he's his idol and favourite spinner. The 50s of Indian cricket were at times called the age of Gupte. The legendary WI team was full of praise for the guy. Things like these tell as much as his stats, if not more.
Agree that stats tell only half the story but I like to look at things like descriptions of technique, quality of opponents, actual playing conditions and so forth more. Each to his own, though.
Really won't call clarke a part timer even. He's not even bowled enough balls to merit that title. Just some 2.5k odd balls in a 115 matches. As Varun put it, this is an All time Draft. The overs he gets, he will be eaten alive.
Just kidding mate. Wanted to ease some tension offHolding, Garner and Tyson are just bowlers who bowl bouncers now?
We have 4 good bowlers, that's enough when you have a spinner in the midst. You have 3 + a part timer who won't be anywhere close to being good enough in this sort of a game. Why are you painting us as the side light on bowling?
Cmon ijaz, initial write up was about how your top 4 would have huge stands and have an easy time vs our pace attack while Mcgrath and Co will keep getting regular wickets and now this.
You certainly aren't a side light on bowling, but I will say I have more variation And you are being very unfair on Shakib to call him a part timer. A part timer is some one like Yuvraj or Jadeja who can help out with the ball. Shakib has 14 Fivers, and a 10nner in just 42 matches. That's a record comparable to Gupte (12 fivers and 1 10nner in 36 matches) and you call him a part timer ?
. Add to this, the fact Bangaladesh usually play top draw teams and as many people seem to think that pitches nowadays are more batsmen friendly, then those records are even more impressive. Add to the fact that the pitch is subcontinental, Shakib can easily hold his own. Don't downplay my spinner to the level of mediocrity. He's there ahead of Thommo for a solid reason.And regarding batting stands, I believe I have players who are more likely to be game changers. Cumulatively, my team has amassed more centuries and double centuries and a triple century than yours. So there is a good chance, my batting line up will have longer partnerships.
Ofcourse ofcourse. They are absolutely important. No one gives a feck about 5 wk hauls vs minnows. That's where Gupte stands out though. His success vs WI and how highly they rated him is amazing. Imagine going to WI and picking 9 wkts in an innings. fecking keeper dropped Gibbs or he'd have had all 10.
There is no batsmen friendly pitches in test matches, its test to both batsmen and bowlers and so the reason to call it test.Really won't call clarke a part timer even. He's not even bowled enough balls to merit that title. Just some 2.5k odd balls in a 115 matches. As Varun put it, this is an All time Draft. The overs he gets, he will be eaten alive.
Just kidding mate. Wanted to ease some tension off
You certainly aren't a side light on bowling, but I will say I have more variation And you are being very unfair on Shakib to call him a part timer. A part timer is some one like Yuvraj or Jadeja who can help out with the ball. Shakib has 14 Fivers, and a 10nner in just 42 matches. That's a record comparable to Gupte (12 fivers and 1 10nner in 36 matches) and you call him a part timer ?
And regarding batting stands, I believe I have players who are more likely to be game changers. Cumulatively, my team has amassed more centuries and double centuries and a triple century than yours. So there is a good chance, my batting line up will have longer partnerships.
Gupte didn't have enough chance to play more test, plus the no. of matches played in those days are much less compared to today.
That didn't seem to be the consensus here for the drafts. Many seemed to think that Pitches nowadays are more batsmen friendly. I personally have no opinion on the matter.
And I think playing more matches in less time is more of a disadvantage than an advantage honestly.
Absolutely. Which is why I didn't even mention him as an option. It'd be disrespectful to your batters. It's the same with the likes of Hammond, Worrell etc which is why I find it odd that you are listing them as options.
As I said, if they get the ball, it's because your bowlers failed. Ditto Clarke in mine.
Just kidding mate. Wanted to ease some tension off
You certainly aren't a side light on bowling, but I will say I have more variation And you are being very unfair on Shakib to call him a part timer. A part timer is some one like Yuvraj or Jadeja who can help out with the ball. Shakib has 14 Fivers, and a 10nner in just 42 matches. That's a record comparable to Gupte (12 fivers and 1 10nner in 36 matches) and you call him a part timer ?
And regarding batting stands, I believe I have players who are more likely to be game changers. Cumulatively, my team has amassed more centuries and double centuries and a triple century than yours. So there is a good chance, my batting line up will have longer partnerships.
It's all relative to the opposition. Yuvi or jadeja are part timers in normal tests. In an all time test draft, they wouldn't be mentioned in the bowling list and with good reason. Similarly, Shakib would be a bowler in a normal tests. In an all time draft, he's a part timer. This is my opinion ofcourse and others might disagree but I just cannot see Shakib Al hassan causing rohan Kanhai, Martin Crowe, Alvin Kallicharran, etc any problems. 55 of Shakib's 147 wickets have come against Zimbabwe and WI. Avg of 23 and 27 vs these too compares to 37 vs ind and Eng, 32 vs sa and 64 vs Pak. This tells a story.
I haven't checked no. of hundreds etc tbh. It doesn't really matter when both sides have such classic line ups. I don't think I'll win the test because my batting is better. I think I'll win it because you are a bowler short and I bat first.
Batting averages are significantly higher this decade than ever since the 1950s. Especially so in the last five years. Either all the batsmen in the world have suddenly somehow gotten better / bowlers got worse, or the pitches have gotten easier to score on. I think the latter theory is more believable and is borne out by the absolute run feasts we see in test cricket these days.
Yeah, I agree batting stats are inflated nowadays. Pitches are better for them + bowling quality has gone down too.
Really have no idea. What you said might be true, but I also think technology plays a crucial role too. It's easier to analyse players nowadays and see their weakness's, so players all over the world have pretty much wised up. I can only imagine what a Sachin would have done in those times. This as opposed to the 50's where only the odd broadcast is available and mostly word spread through mouth or over the radio.
It's just my opinion, but I think Players of yesteryear are a tad overrated and players of modern times are a tad underrated.
Think video analysis technology favours the bowlers more than the batsmen. Nowadays no bowling attack goes into a test match without having figured out which deliveries each batsmen tends to get out to and practicing bowling them umpteen times. Easier for a bowler to practice a sequence of deliveries than for a batsman to change how he instinctively responds to a ball in split-second situations.
Worrel and Hammond can be considered better part timers than Clarke. And it doesn't have to be the only reason to give them the ball. You are playing with three seamers on a hot and humid pitch. You need to make more use of the part timers than I do, the way I see it.
And Gupte's record is by no means sensational either. Even against the Windies, whom you have used constantly as a point of reference, his average is 35. What I sense about Gupte's play (And this is just Hypothetical ofcourse) is that, he got found out. In his last match against the windies, he bowled 60 overs and didn't pick up a single wicket, despite playing in the subcontinent.
Really ? How can you replicate Swing and seam in the nets or get the ball to reverse swing or make the ball turn just the way you want it to ? It maybe the same for batsman too, so I really cannot say.
A test match write up for Mani and varun, it will probably take me a week to it
I definitely disagree with the notion that I am a bowler short. In the first Innings, it might not be as easy going, but third innings, my bowlers will take control.
I have already agreed that batting last isn't the most ideal situation, but then you forget, I have in my line-up the likes of Steven Smith, Misbah and Dhoni who are beyond excellent at handling nerves and coping with the pressure.
He got 4 of their wkts wickets in an innings a week earlier and 9 in an innings vs the same team a month before that so I'd put it down to a coincidence unless you think they suddenly "found him out".
Yeah, his avg is 35 against them. Not really a surprise when you consider how shit we were as a team and how superb they were. Some of the legends of WI cricket played during those days. The words of sobers or the WI team in general is testimony to his performance vs them.
I don't really care about Hammond or Worrell being better or worse than Clarke mate. They're all meaningless at this level. A team of 11 avg all rounders won't beat a team of 6 top batsmen, 4 top bowlers and a top keeper even though they have 11 batters and 11 bowlers on paper. Extreme example to just prove that it's quality that matters, not quantity. Whether or not the likes of Hammond, Worrell, Clarke etc can chuck a few decent overs in is immaterial in such a high level contest. I absolutely agree that pacers need rest and as both of us have a top spinner who bowls long spells, they will get all the rest they need.
A test match write up for Mani and varun, it will probably take me a week to it
The best ones are always tabulated
Sorry man. I don't get on my laptop enough to edit things.A test match write up for Mani and varun, it will probably take me a week to it
Managed to do so today evening but the game was already on by then so write ups had to be submitted earlier.But come with a high risk of errorThe best ones are always tabulated
I don't mean you have 3 bowlers. No, you have 4. I just mean only 3 of them are worthy of the stage we are in atm and thus the onus will be on Mcgrath, Trueman and kumble to pick pretty much all of my wickets.
I'm not taking any credit away from your batting line up btw, it's a good one. Winning the toss was a big plus which is why I mentioned it. Batting on that pitch on the 5th day is a tough ask so I'm glad by batters and bowlers get the best use of the conditions.
You've already votes though? Just noticedA test match write up for Mani and varun, it will probably take me a week to it
Hope you read the thread atleast mate so that you consider the points both us and Ijazz have made.
Mate, it was a accident! I'm going to read and then resubmit my voteYou've already votes though? Just noticed
Hope you read the thread atleast mate so that you consider the points both us and Ijazz have made.
Ah alright. Cheers.Mate, it was a accident! I'm going to read and then resubmit my vote
But that doesn't mean you can discount Shakib's efforts too. Like I said, everyone seems to think, it's easier for the batsmen nowadays, so since he is doing it in modern times, I think it's an achievement. And not to forget, he plays for a team, that almost always inevitably loses, yet he comes out of those matches as the only respectable player. The video I have posted is a little long, but he dismisses players like Smith, Kallis, De Villiers to name a few. Those are giants of cricketers there.
Edit: There are some more videos I wouldn't mind posting, but wont. But there are some peaches of a delivery he delivers. If you want more you can just click on the link in my write-up. Honestly, even I never knew he was this good a bowler when I picked him.
But that doesn't mean you can discount Shakib's efforts too. Like I said, everyone seems to think, it's easier for the batsmen nowadays, so since he is doing it in modern times, I think it's an achievement. And not to forget, he plays for a team, that almost always inevitably loses, yet he comes out of those matches as the only respectable player. The video I have posted is a little long, but he dismisses players like Smith, Kallis, De Villiers to name a few. Those are giants of cricketers there.
Edit: There are some more videos I wouldn't mind posting, but wont. But there are some peaches of a delivery he delivers. If you want more you can just click on the link in my write-up. Honestly, even I never knew he was this good a bowler when I picked him.
I'll watch the video later mate. It's too late now but a quick look on cricinfo tells me Shakib has bowled 61 overs giving away 189 runs and picking up 2 wickets in the subcontinent vs SA. That's an avg of 94.5 and a SR of 183.
I don't intend to discount his efforts btw, I do think he'll be decent but he isn't good enough to be a 4th bowler in such a draft imo. The gulf in quality is far too much. Some might disagree, who knows.
Really ? Can you post me the link ?I'll watch the video later mate. It's too late now but a quick look on cricinfo tells me Shakib has bowled 61 overs giving away 189 runs and picking up 2 wickets in the subcontinent vs SA. That's an avg of 94.5 and a SR of 183.
I don't intend to discount his efforts btw, I do think he'll be decent but he isn't good enough to be a 4th bowler in such a draft imo. The gulf in quality is far too much. Some might disagree, who knows.
And I am not exactly placing him in the same bracket as Kumble or anything, but considering how effective he is with his arm ball (Very very good imo) and the excessive bounce and turn he generates, he can be a nightmare to play against in the third innings. Add to this an already impressive line-up of McGrath, Trueman and Kumble, and I believe Shakib will definitely hold his own. He's a really clever bowler, one that knows what type of field to set up and what bowls to ball based on the player he faces.
And I will drive home another point before I sleep, Dujon will struggle as a keeper when Gupte is bowling to him. Of that I have no doubt. It's very difficult to read a spinners flight, turn and bounce when you are so up close. And If Gupte is as good as you and Mani make him out to be, this will not work well in his favour. I really don't have that problem. Shakib has the ability to draw a batsman out, and with the sudden turn he generates and with Dhoni as a keeper, the bails will be down in a split second. Kumble too can generate incredible bounce and turn and almost bowls at the speed of a medium pacer. Dhoni will enjoy keeping to those two bowlers. It might be a minor point of course, but one that bodes in my favour.
And I will drive home another point before I sleep, Dujon will struggle as a keeper when Gupte is bowling to him. Of that I have no doubt. It's very difficult to read a spinners flight, turn and bounce when you are so up close. And If Gupte is as good as you and Mani make him out to be, this will not work well in his favour. I really don't have that problem. Shakib has the ability to draw a batsman out, and with the sudden turn he generates and with Dhoni as a keeper, the bails will be down in a split second. Kumble too can generate incredible bounce and turn and almost bowls at the speed of a medium pacer. Dhoni will enjoy keeping to those two bowlers. It might be a minor point of course, but one that bodes in my favour.
Here you go.
stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/56143.html?class=1;opposition=3;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings
His record vs India(excluding the test that took place in 2015 so that we take into account atleast semi decent batters)
124 ovrs. 383 runs. 9 wkts. Avg of 42.5 SR of 82.66.
5 of those 9 wickets are of zaheer(2), harbhajan, yuvraj and Vijay.
stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/56143.html?class=1;opposition=6;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings
The other 3 bowlers you have are class mate, no arguments there. It's just Shakib who is the obvious weak link which leaves you a short of a proper bowler imo.
I agree that dujon standing up to Gupte would probably be an unknown for him, good point. I haven't researched dujon enough to know how he did vs spinners back in the day. Dhoni ofcourse won't have problems standing up to Shakib or kumble. I agree with you
. I think you mistook the Innings to be the number of wickets mate. And I am not even sure what combination gave you the 61 overs, 189 runs, ave of 94, SR of 180 and the 2 wickets nonsense. I suggest you look at the link again.http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=3;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings
You really shouldn't be bringing up numbers that don't exist!
.And I love the fact that you conveniently left out the likes of Sehwag, Gambhir,Sachin, Laxman all of whom were renowned players of spin in the second link. Infact, he dismissed most of them when they were well and truly set. Sachin for example was dismissed at 143. Even in the 2015 match that you are conveniently choosing to ignore, he dismissed Murali Karthik and Dhawan when they were batting at 120+. Need I say more.
He had kept wkts for Harper/Gomes/Richards, all three are spinners.
http://www.cricketcountry.com/artic...ic-behind-the-stumps-aesthetic-in-front-27110
I love your reaction to those stats
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=3;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings
You really shouldn't be bringing up numbers that don't exist!
And I love the fact that you conveniently left out the likes of Sehwag, Gambhir,Sachin, Laxman all of whom were renowned players of spin in the second link. Infact, he dismissed most of them when they were well and truly set. Sachin for example was dismissed at 143. Even in the 2015 match that you are conveniently choosing to ignore, he dismissed Murali Karthik and Dhawan when they were batting at 120+. Need I say more.
Mate, the stats I posted are correct. I think you're missing the fact that 2 of those tests were in SA and we are looking at subcontinent records here. Absurd numbers I know but true.
I didn't leave out anyone to mislead. I posted his record vs India and then pointed out that 5 of his 9 wkts were either bowlers or very avg test players. I don't mind him getting a wicket after our guy has scored 150 odd
How much time left to vote on this draft?? Still haven't decided which way I want to vote.. Read up on all the discussions , but the write ups are taking so long to read..
7hrs. Sorry about the lengthy write up
Karachi pitch is good for fast bowlers. Wasim Waqar Imran and even irfan Pathan has been phenomenal here. So it's a competition between fast bowlers. Trueman and pidge vs garner Tyson holding. Kumble vs Gupte is similar in that both are subcontinent spinners. Shakib is a good bowler but he can't make up for the difference between both.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=3;template=results;type=bowling;view=inningsI'll watch the video later mate. It's too late now but a quick look on cricinfo tells me Shakib has bowled 61 overs giving away 189 runs and picking up 2 wickets in the subcontinent vs SA. That's an avg of 94.5 and a SR of 183.
I don't intend to discount his efforts btw, I do think he'll be decent but he isn't good enough to be a 4th bowler in such a draft imo. The gulf in quality is far too much. Some might disagree, who knows.
This was the link you posted am I not mistaken ?
There is not a single test match there in the subcontinent which leads to him bowling over 61 overs and giving 189 runs. That's what I find confusing?! And Incase you are trying to be clever about this in just simply adding up the numbers, then I find it very convenient how you left out the fact that most of his bowling spells were 7 overs, 10 overs long. C'mon now! Even Garner can't do much in 7 overs.
Weird line of attack you are taking mate!The agreement was that the pitch is just an indication of the conditions of the country or the continent. So most of us are in agreement that this will be a typical subcontinental pitch.
Kumble vs Gupte ? Really ? One has won India more matches as a bowler than anyone else in the history of cricket. And Gupte played in a time when not a lot was known about Spin bowling. Kumble and Shakib played in more recent times, where it was easier to figure them out.
And I would also like to point out that Shakib's plays for a piss poor Bangladeshi side (Despite coming in leaps and bounds). So certain numbers like his bowling average and Econ will be on the higher side. He really has no one good enough on the other side to stop the flow of runs or make things tight and put pressure on the batsmen. But his Sr (Which I feel is a more accurate statistic of how likely he is to pick up a wicket regardless of how piss poor his side is) is very decent for a spinner. It's comparable to Kumble's and much better than Gupte's. Also, many seem to think that pitches nowadays are batsmen friendly, so to be able to hold his own in a poor side against stronger opposition is very good achievement. If Shakib played for a Test Nation like India or a even a Pakistan side of maybe 15 years ago, he would be much more highly rated. He has beaten the likes of Kallis (even a declining Kallis is better than most players in this world) and others to the best Test All Rounder for a number of years now. His biggest problem is that plays for a nation that will almost always lose. One man can't do a job on his own.
Shakib isn't playing in a piss poor side here, he's playing along side some true greats. Numbers like his average and Econ will naturally come down in such a line-up. I expect the first two Innings to be pretty much even stevens, maybe I may even have a 50-75 run lead. Third and fourth Innings I will take control. More variation in my bowling and deeper quality batting line-up should really seal the deal for me.
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Mani/Varun are batting first, have a good batting line up.. So will be putting up a good enough total for you to chase, but a chasable one nevertheless.. On a crumbling subcontinental wicket would that be enough? Gupte with support from Clarke will be more than needed variation and support for the awesome pace line up he has..
So again I feel toss might be the deciding factor.. In effect it might cover up for the lack of variation in his bowling..
Saying all this, still haven't decided which way to vote..
You have a deep batting line up that can afford to lose a couple of wickets in the fourth innings but still not panic about it.. Even Kumble can hang around if needed.. Very well balanced match..