Yeah Vaas' record in England is not really good but I am not relying on him to bowl the side out. I have Marshall and Snow + Trumble and Rhodes for that.
Also, re: John Snow - I posted a video above and in that innings he took 4 for 60 odd runs. Trumble was also the first bowler to take two Hat-tricks in Test Cricket. Rhodes has more than 4000 first class wickets.
Wickets and Average/Strike Rate in England:
Marshall's 76 wickets @ 18.70/45.6
John Snow 140 wickets @ 26.31/59.6
Vaas 9 wickets @ 77.66/159.4
Trumble 67 wickets @ 20.35/52
Rhodes 67 wickets @ 21.17/47.9
No need to make up numbers mate. His average is 29.21 and SR is 64.3 in England which is significantly different than what you're trying to indicate.
Also as I've mentioned my middle order are good players of spin. Plus historically the Lord's pitch won't offer much to the spinners so basically you are relying on Marshall and Snow to take the 20 wickets.
Yea, I feel the same. However what is stopping me is that it is followed by a fantastic middle order and one I'd back to recover even from a REALLY early loss of openers, although if Gayle gets going on the first day you can kiss the game goodbye.Close game but went for harshad in the end. Samid's openers are a weakness when up against Marshall which swung it for me. Can see his middle order exposed very early.
Is that middle 3 going to put enough runs on the board though? Especially with Marshall and snow coming back for seconds after a break. Harshad has a good batting order too and the onus would be on waqar to deliver for Samid failing which harshad's team will pile on the runs. Samid is really going to need 4 hundreds(both innings combined) from his 3-5 to stand any chance in the game. He then requires waqar to fire in both innings and even then he might fall short with the batting line up harshad has. Btw, gayle would barely last couple of overs in this game, just doesn't have the quality required to handle those 2 at Lords.Yea, I feel the same. However what is stopping me is that it is followed by a fantastic middle order and one I'd back to recover even from a REALLY early loss of openers, although if Gayle gets going on the first day you can kiss the game goodbye.
Kane and Sachin would be perfect in a situation where they have to build an innings from the start and I'd back them to do that, specially once Marshall's spell is over. Vaas is coming in at first change - what is that, somewhere around 12-14th over? After that you are looking at Vaas from one end, with the two spinners joining in later. I can see Kane and Sachin build a strong partnership here, both are class acts and rarely throw their wicket away. They would take the responsibility of the situation.
The two just don't belong to the same class. Gayle in tests doesn't stand a chance against top bowlers, Kane is a properly polished and cultured test player, who most importantly has the temperament needed to perform in tests, which Gayle doesn't have a clue about. I don't doubt Williamson to perform well here, specially against the likes of Vaas. Even against Marshall and Snow, he won't be a deer in front of headlights, especially if Sachin is there on the other end they can pretty easily build a strong partnership, say 150+ on the first day.Gayle/Williamson
Agreed with what you said. But Gayle on his day can do it to the best of them. I just wanted to know if someone has a good example of him doing just that. If he really got going, then the burden on the middle order goes down drastically. Even one solid innings from Gayle either in the 1st or 3rd Innings (preferably 3rd) will really swing it in Samid's favour.The two just don't belong to the same class. Gayle in tests doesn't stand a chance against top bowlers, Kane is a properly polished and cultured test player, who most importantly has the temperament needed to perform in tests, which Gayle doesn't have a clue about. I don't doubt Williamson to perform well here, specially against the likes of Vaas. Even against Marshall and Snow, he won't be a deer in front of headlights, especially if Sachin is there on the other end they can pretty easily build a strong partnership, say 150+ on the first day.
Doubt he has ever had a big century against genuinely top bowling in tests. Perhaps @Samid can do some diggingAgreed with what you said. But Gayle on his day can do it to the best of them. I just wanted to know if someone has a good example of him doing just that. If he really got going, then the burden on the middle order goes down drastically. Even one solid innings from Gayle either in the 1st or 3rd Innings (preferably 3rd) will really swing it in Samid's favour.
Not really convinced about this in test cricket. All his really big scores have come against at best mediocre attacks, such as Pollock-Kallis-Ntini-Boje or Johnson-Hauritz-Bollinger. And those games all ended in draws, reflecting the batting-friendly nature of those pitches.Agreed with what you said. But Gayle on his day can do it to the best of them. I just wanted to know if someone has a good example of him doing just that. If he really got going, then the burden on the middle order goes down drastically. Even one solid innings from Gayle either in the 1st or 3rd Innings (preferably 3rd) will really swing it in Samid's favour.
Yes, that one off is what I was talking about when I was replying to @Varun , I agree with him that Gayle more often than not would be dispatched fairly soon by Marshall and Snow, you can't rule out a one-off with players like Sehwag and Gayle, though a one-off is not something we should be using to evaluate this. I doubt Gayle is going to be a key figure if Samid were to do anything here. It would be Waqar, Sachin, Williamson and Gillespie who would have to do most of work. Also, Hussey, Shastri and Baz make for a more than good support cast, Marshall can't get all the wickets.Agreed with what you said. But Gayle on his day can do it to the best of them. I just wanted to know if someone has a good example of him doing just that. If he really got going, then the burden on the middle order goes down drastically. Even one solid innings from Gayle either in the 1st or 3rd Innings (preferably 3rd) will really swing it in Samid's favour.
Yeah, that's why I asked if there is any example of this against a top quality bowling attack. And Kallis-Pollock-Ntini certainly isn't mediocre. But if that knock came at J'berg or Cape town, it wouldn't be that big of an achievement. Doing that at Lords is far more difficult.Not really convinced about this in test cricket. All his really big scores have come against at best mediocre attacks, such as Pollock-Kallis-Ntini-Boje or Johnson-Hauritz-Bollinger. And those games all ended in draws, reflecting the batting-friendly nature of those pitches.
One off's probably shouldn't be considered as you said, but even if he gets a 40-70 in the 3rd Innings, it would be a huge boost to the team. He has struggled in England, but he does seem to fare better in the 3rd Innings (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings). It's obviously no Marshall-Snow-Trumble attack though.Yes, that one off is what I was talking about when I was replying to @Varun , I agree with him that Gayle more often than not would be dispatched fairly soon by Marshall and Snow, you can't rule out a one-off with players like Sehwag and Gayle, though a one-off is not something we should be using to evaluate this. I doubt Gayle is going to be a key figure if Samid were to do anything here. It would be Waqar, Sachin, Williamson and Gillespie who would have to do most of work. Also, Hussey, Shastri and Baz make for a more than good support cast, Marshall can't get all the wickets.
Even if what you said is true, you still have Dravid and Compton to contend with Samid. Waqar will do a cracking job,ably supported by Gillespie. But Collins and Amir to an extent are weak links imo.
I agree with this point.Vaughan and Amir's records in England are being played down only because these are recent events. They don't have that ancient and mystique touch about them.
The video I posted of Graeme Pollock in his write up is from a match in 1970 where a team of Rest of the World Team including Graeme Pollock played against England.Bob Simpson scored 311 in one innings. This was a game which saw 1300 runs for 18 wickets and three scores of 170+ which says it all about the pitch. Sure it’s a great achievement scoring 311 in test cricket but let’s take a look at the seam attack he was facing in this game. Fred Rumsey was making his debut and took the new ball, he ended up with 17 career wickets. John Price shared the new ball and was playing only his fourth test (his first in England), he ended up with 40 career wickets. Tom Cartwright was the third seamer, he was also making his debut and ended up with 15 career wickets. John Mortimore who only played 9 matches in his career (this was his last), had a bowling strike rate of 166 and he bowled no less than 49 overs in the innings. 206 of the 255 overs were bowled by people who either were making their debuts or had a SR so bad that they could bowl from one end for two consecutive sessions and still not be anywhere close to taking a wicket.
Apart from this one game he was always facing good bowlers like Statham and Trueman in England. Apart from that one big score when he has facing a mediocre bowling attack his returns in England are 334 runs in 13 innings @ 25.69.
Greame Pollock only played one series in England but again you have to question the bowling attack he was facing. Trueman had just retired. David Larter who only played 10 matches in his career took the new ball. This was Snow’s first summer as an international player so he was highly inexperienced at this level. And then there was Cartwright again as the third seamer who only took 15 career wickets.
Simpson and Pollock’s records in England are as good simply because they were playing average England bowling line-ups without a proper leader. And on those instances Trueman and Statham did play then Simpson’s record was below average.
Amir isn't a weak link when you look at his records. Some of the arguments being used against him is that he is too young etc. which is nonsense imo. He has 30 wickets in 6 England tests vs two different countries at an average below 20. Formidable SR.
In comparison some of my opponent's older players are being treated like Gods yet their records in England are nowhere near Amir's. Rhodes only opened the batting in 5 games in England. Pollock only ever played 3 matches in England.
Vaughan and Amir's records in England are being played down only because these are recent events. They don't have that ancient and mystique touch about them.
Re: Rhodes - He has 7 games opening in England.. I am not sure which stats you are looking at.
And for Pollock, apart from ignoring the performances while playing for the Rest of World team which was 5 year after his initial tour of 1965 (heres the video again), are you suggesting that 6 matches played in a time period of 2 odd months is a better sample than performances displayed 5 years apart?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that my openers are going to have a 200+ run stand. All I am saying is my openers should be able to withstand the initial onslaught and my middle order is better than yours. Even if we take out Dravid and Tendulkar out of the equation Pollock, Compton, Azhar and McCullum is better than Willamson, Hussey, Shastri and Moin Khan and therefore batting second, I am confident of my team achieving the target set before them.Fine, 7 games. I just saw the 9 innings and assumed they were in 5 games.
I'm not saying it is a better sample, I'm saying that the recent performances are being downplayed because there seems to be a general agreement that test cricket these days isn't as competitive as before.
Vaughan however scored centuries consistently at Lord's in a 6 year period. His records in these conditions are much better than both your openers. If Marshall can walk through my openers then Waqar isn't any less capable of walking through yours.
May get some flak for this. But I would rate Shastri better than Azhar. Hussey and Compton really close too. Gayle and Rhodes very comparable. Rhodes is not an opener by default.Vaughan > Simpson
Gayle > Rhodes
Williamson < Dravid
Tendulkar > Pollock
Hussey < Compton
Shastri < Azharuddin
Moin Khan = McCullum
Gillespie > Vaas
Waqar = Marshall
Collins < Trumble
Amir > Snow
Vaughan > Simpson
Gayle = Rhodes
Williamson < Dravid
Tendulkar > Pollock
Hussey < Compton
Shastri < Azharuddin
Moin Khan < McCullum
Gillespie > Vaas
Waqar < Marshall
Collins < Trumble
Amir < Snow
Player for player I'm edging this. My opening batsmen will outscore his. I agree that his middle order is better in these conditions but I'm confident I can remove both his openers early and expose that middle order while the ball is still swinging. Later on in the innings Waqar will be a huge threat with the ball reversing. He only has 2 strike bowlers, I have 3 which should seal the deal in these conditions.
Eh?Amir > Snow
In England, I think that's a fair statement.
May get some flak for this. But I would rate Shastri better than Azhar. Hussey and Compton really close too. Gayle and Rhodes very comparable. Rhodes is not an opener by default.
It's not always about the numbers. and never always about the numbers in those positions. Shastri can save his wicket very well. Azhar can't. He is stylish, suave even at times, but can't keep hold of his wicket for a long time.Overall I agree but numbers in England going in favour of those two unfortunately.
At least I'm being objective (unlike harshad who has been painting this as the most one-sided encounter ever right through the thread).
You do have to consider the fact that Snow played a lot more and took more wickets in England too, though. I rate Amir, but his Test career was a little short for my liking. I'd consider them mostly even (in England).In those conditions, yes. Easily.
Amir: 30 wickets @ 19. SR 41.
Snow: 140 wickets @ 29. SR 64.
Shastri averages 13 in England in 3rd Innings. Azhar 30+ in 4th innings.It's not always about the numbers. and never always about the numbers in those positions. Shastri can save his wicket very well. Azhar can't. He is stylish, suave even at times, but can't keep hold of his wicket for a long time.
It's not always about the numbers. and never always about the numbers in those positions. Shastri can save his wicket very well. Azhar can't. He is stylish, suave even at times, but can't keep hold of his wicket for a long time.
You cannot compare a record accumulated over a career of 10 years to a record over a span of 2 months.In those conditions, yes. Easily.
Amir: 30 wickets @ 19. SR 41.
Snow: 140 wickets @ 29. SR 64.
Shastri averages 13 in England in 3rd Innings. Azhar 30+ in 4th innings.
And you are judging Shastri's in this match by his ability to bat long periods in the sub-continent. Also, Shastri is coming in at no. 6 in this match. He only has Moin Khan and Gillespie who can give him some semblance of support. Whereas Azhar has McCullum, Vaas and Marshall + Snow who can also bat a bit.
Snow has 2 50s in England to Amir's 0.If Snow can bat a bit then so can Amir. Amir plays on average 36 balls each innings, we're talking about 15-20 extra overs if there is someone like Shastri at the other end.
