Tennis 2021

Daysleeper said:
Nah, Djokovic is beyond elite considering he’s had the crowd against him more than any other star player for most of his career. Beyond incredible.
Click to expand...

Elite in tennis terms but he isn't even close in terms of overall sports. He's had way too many blunders and let downs to even be in the discussion with Jordan (or Brady for that matter) in terms of greatest mentality in sports, nevermind comparing him in that regard to Gretzky.

I'm fine with you making the argument that he has a greater mentality than Nadal (which I wouldn't necessarily easily agree with, either), but to put him in the same conversation as the Gretzky, Jordan, and Brady is hyperbole, in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Ladron de redcafe said:
Elite in tennis terms but he isn't even close in terms of overall sports. He's had way too many blunders and let downs to even be in the discussion with Jordan (or Brady for that matter) in terms of greatest mentality in sports, nevermind comparing him in that regard to Gretzky.

I'm fine with you making the argument that he has a greater mentality than Nadal (which I wouldn't necessarily easily agree with, either), but to put him in the same conversation as the Gretzky, Jordan, and Brady is hyperbole, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Gretzky who?
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Elite in tennis terms but he isn't even close in terms of overall sports. He's had way too many blunders and let downs to even be in the discussion with Jordan (or Brady for that matter) in terms of greatest mentality in sports, nevermind comparing him in that regard to Gretzky.

I'm fine with you making the argument that he has a greater mentality than Nadal (which I wouldn't necessarily easily agree with, either), but to put him in the same conversation as the Gretzky, Jordan, and Brady is hyperbole, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

He’s absolutely ahead of Gretzky. Jordan is an argument for sure but Brady only has to play on one side of the ball. Brady is phenomenal but no player has been on the verge of losing as often as Djokovic (facing multiple championship points) and come back as often as he has. Beyond incredible but I do know there is an argument for others, especially Jordan. To say “not even close on overall sports” is a bit ridiculous.

And yeah, definitely him over Nadal though. 15-40 for Djokovic is a meme at this point with how many times he has come back from that.
 
iKnowNothing said:
Gretzky who?
Click to expand...

Wayne Gretzky? He's by unanimous consensus the greatest hockey player ever. He led the league in assists for 16 seasons and led the league in scoring 5 times. He has 9 MVPs (compared to Jordan's 6 FMVPs in basketball, and compared to Messi's 6 balón d'ors in football).

He led the league in total points 10 seasons and has more assists than any other player who has ever played hockey has total points overall.

His level of dominance was staggering.
 
Daysleeper said:
He’s absolutely ahead of Gretzky. Jordan is an argument for sure but Brady only has to play on one side of the ball. Brady is phenomenal but no player has been on the verge of losing as often as Djokovic (facing multiple championship points) and come back as often as he has. Beyond incredible but I do know there is an argument for others, especially Jordan. To say “not even close on overall sports” is a bit ridiculous.

And yeah, definitely him over Nadal though. 15-40 for Djokovic is a meme at this point with how many times he has come back from that.
Click to expand...

Argument? Jordan is so far ahead of him and it isn't even an argument. Jordan was 24-0 with home court advantage in basketball. He was 6-0 in NBA finals, and had 10 scoring titles.

He also has absolutely no argument over Gretzky given how much more dominant Gretzky was in hockey than Djokovic is in tennis.

Gretzky didn't have a Djokovic 2013 RG final moment. He never had a US Open 2016 final moment. Neither did Jordan.

When we're talking about greatest mentality, the margins are tight, and those things do separate some sportsmen from others. None of the tennis trimvirate are really close to Jordan or Gretzky, or Brady.
 
Last edited:
Must be nice when shit doesnt go your way, you have your team to fall on it and pull you out.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Wayne Gretzky? He's by unanimous consensus the greatest hockey player ever. He led the league in assists for 16 seasons and led the league in scoring 5 times. He has 9 MVPs (compared to Jordan's 6 FMVPs in basketball, and compared to Messi's 6 balón d'ors in football).

He led the league in total points 10 seasons and has more assists than any other player who has ever played hockey has total points overall.

His level of dominance was staggering.
Click to expand...

Ah an ice hockey player. There was another thread about GOAT players and someone mentioned some darts player - who the feck cares about fecking darts which is a pub game at best.

To me personally, sports popular in a handful of countries shouldn’t even be in such discussions. This Gretzky guy may be good but his peer group is absolutely limited in quantity. He could be the GOAT of a bad bunch but that shouldn’t mean he’s better than some of these tennis greats :lol:
 
iKnowNothing said:
Ah an ice hockey player. There was another thread about GOAT players and someone mentioned some darts player - who the feck cares about fecking darts which is a pub game at best.

To me personally, sports popular in a handful of countries shouldn’t even be in such discussions. This Gretzky guy may be good but his peer group is absolutely limited in quantity. He could be the GOAT of a bad bunch but that shouldn’t mean he’s better than some of these tennis greats :lol:
Click to expand...

It's true that the talent pool in hockey isn't the same as the ones in the major sports. And obviously, the same is true sports such as darts.

I suppose it's fine to limit the discussion to the major sports, if that's what some want to do.
 
Just read that Zverev never beat a top ten player at a slam. That’s crazy.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Argument? Jordan is so far ahead of him and it isn't even an argument. Jordan was 24-0 with home court advantage in basketball. He was 6-0 in NBA finals, and had 10 scoring titles.

He also has absolutely no argument over Gretzky given how much more dominant Gretzky was in hockey than Djokovic is in tennis.

Gretzky didn't have a Djokovic 2013 RG final moment. He never had a US Open 2016 final moment. Neither did Jordan.

When we're talking about greatest mentality, the margins are tight, and those things do separate some sportsmen from others. None of the tennis trimvirate are really close to Jordan or Gretzky, or Brady.
Click to expand...

It’s really a pointless argument, because it’s not something that can be measured, but I’ll play devils advocate.

Jordan played in six finals his whole career, Novak played 31 slam finals so far, it’s just probability that he’s going to lose more. Added to that Jordan gets up to three off night per round in the finals. A fairer comparison is Jordan has played 35 play off games and lost 13 of them. Although I admit it doesn’t really work like that, but adds context.

Novak plays 30 minutes of bad tennis he’s 1/3 of the way out of the tournament. Jordan is able to pass to teammates if he’s not feeling it and also had a very good team, this is also the thing with comparing solo sports to team sports. Novak is out there by himself and we’ve seen him countless time come back from the brink.

I’ll also add Novak has been up against the other two undeniable best ever in this period and a solid supporting cast like Murray, who would have won more titles if he was coming into his peak now. I’m only a casual basketball fan but I know Jordan didn’t have to face the two other best teams ever in NBA history during those years.

All of that said, it’s like comparing apples and oranges and all we’ve really done in both posts is compare sporting achievements.
 
Twins said:
Just read that Zverev never beat a top ten player at a slam. That’s crazy.
Click to expand...

Always get the feeling he chokes when it comes to the big moments in grand slam matches. It's strange because he has won the ATP Tour Finals and Olympics, beating big opponents along the way for those. When it comes to grand slams, he just never seems to be able to finish off a match. Losing to Theim being 2-0 up in last year's final was brutal.
 
It will be interesting to see reactions from the crowd tomorrow after some recent "clashes" from both players with them. Medvedev with middle finger here back in 2019 and Djokovic got booed badly in the same tournament after retiring vs Waw + of course, the line judge incident.



I can imagine something similar happening in sunday.
 
Suedesi said:
Click to expand...


I don't understand what's great about that point. Around half of the shots aren't being made with the purpose of winning the point but rather to just knocking it about as a rally. This is what annoys me about tennis these days compared to in the 90's when it was much more attacking with players using serve and volley tactics. It can get really boring with points dragging on from beyond the baseline.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Elite in tennis terms but he isn't even close in terms of overall sports. He's had way too many blunders and let downs to even be in the discussion with Jordan (or Brady for that matter) in terms of greatest mentality in sports, nevermind comparing him in that regard to Gretzky.

I'm fine with you making the argument that he has a greater mentality than Nadal (which I wouldn't necessarily easily agree with, either), but to put him in the same conversation as the Gretzky, Jordan, and Brady is hyperbole, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Stop including Brady, Christ. He's by far the worst example among them. Doesn't belong in any sort of consideration with the others. Your whole post is invalidated solely because of that inclusion. Djokovic is 10 times the sportsman that Brady is. Maybe even more.
 
altodevil said:
Stop including Brady, Christ. He's by far the worst example among them. Doesn't belong in any sort of consideration with the others. Your whole post is invalidated solely because of that inclusion. Djokovic is 10 times the sportsman that Brady is. Maybe even more.
Click to expand...

If you have anything of substance to contribute, I'll be here. In the meantime, feel free to carry on ranting.
 
Dan_F said:
It’s really a pointless argument, because it’s not something that can be measured, but I’ll play devils advocate.

Jordan played in six finals his whole career, Novak played 31 slam finals so far, it’s just probability that he’s going to lose more. Added to that Jordan gets up to three off night per round in the finals. A fairer comparison is Jordan has played 35 play off games and lost 13 of them. Although I admit it doesn’t really work like that, but adds context.

Novak plays 30 minutes of bad tennis he’s 1/3 of the way out of the tournament. Jordan is able to pass to teammates if he’s not feeling it and also had a very good team, this is also the thing with comparing solo sports to team sports. Novak is out there by himself and we’ve seen him countless time come back from the brink.

I’ll also add Novak has been up against the other two undeniable best ever in this period and a solid supporting cast like Murray, who would have won more titles if he was coming into his peak now. I’m only a casual basketball fan but I know Jordan didn’t have to face the two other best teams ever in NBA history during those years.

All of that said, it’s like comparing apples and oranges and all we’ve really done in both posts is compare sporting achievements.
Click to expand...

The only thing I'd point out is that your argument could apply to any tennis player Vs basketball player debate. If your argument is centered around the fact that sportsmen in team sports have the benefit of using teammates whereas those in solo sports don't, you're essentially arguing that even the biggest scrub in tennis has a greater mentality than the all time greats in basketball.

Regarding the basketball record, as you point out, it's a team sport. Nobody wins championships single handedly, but given a competitive team, Jordan never lost (you could argue that the series against Orlando should count, I suppose). He was 6-0 in NBA finals with 6 FMVPs and regardless of his team's success (his team of scrubs lost to an all time great Boston team in 1986, for example), he performed. Which is the only important thing in this discussion since it's a comparison between two athletes.

Counting a series lost in which Jordan averaged 44 ppg against the then-consensus greatest team ever is wide of the mark.

It is apples to oranges as you said, but within their respective sports, nobody in tennis (not Laver, not Sampras, not the current trimvirate) have performed as well and been as relatively unblimished as Jordan was.
 
Mark_Barca said:
Coming from the guy claiming its not even close between Djokovic and Jordan? :lol:

Behave.
Click to expand...

It isn't. If you think it is, you're free to make an argument. If you have nothing to rebut with, you're free to spam emojis - a tacit admission of defeat.

Case in point, the guy I replied to.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
It isn't. If you think it is, you're free to make an argument. If you have nothing to rebut with, you're free to spam emojis - a tacit admission of defeat.

Case in point, the guy I replied to.
Click to expand...
@Dan_F post ripped yours apart. Was no need to add anything else.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
It isn't. If you think it is, you're free to make an argument. If you have nothing to rebut with, you're free to spam emojis - a tacit admission of defeat.

Case in point, the guy I replied to.
Click to expand...
Go on then - explain to me how Brady is anywhere close to Jordan/Gretzky/Djokovic - bearing in mind that the NFL has 53-man teams.
 
altodevil said:
Go on then - explain to me how Brady is anywhere close to Jordan/Gretzky/Djokovic - bearing in mind that the NFL has 53-man teams.
Click to expand...

You're responding to my post, mate. why exactly is Djokovic being lumped with the other three? It's up to you to explain to me why you think he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath. All you've done so far is spam emojis.

If you have an argument to make, I'm all ears. After you're done, the onus would then be on you to explain why you think Brady shouldn't be compared to Djokovic (which is true. Brady is regarded as a much more dominant sportsman).
 
If Raducano wins the US open as a qualifier, this will be a movie-in-the-making.

It's been a crazy run so far and I just hope that the stakes don't hit her and that we don't witness her tensing up realising what she's about to accomplish.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
You're responding to my post, mate. why exactly is Djokovic being lumped with the other three? It's up to you to explain to me why you think he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath. All you've done so far is spam emojis.

If you have an argument to make, I'm all ears. After you're done, the onus would then be on you to explain why you think Brady shouldn't be compared to Djokovic (which is true. Brady is regarded as a much more dominant sportsman).
Click to expand...
I don't care about Djokovic as such, I was just including him because that was the initial comparison. I find the inclusion of Brady maddening given that he has not performed consistently above his peers in any metric over the course of his career, and certainly nowhere close to the extent of Jordan/Gretzky and Djokovic as well.

I'm asking you to explain why you included him, then I can tell you where you are wrong.

This is a forum, not some official debating arena with set rules and regulations.
 
altodevil said:
I don't care about Djokovic as such, I was just including him because that was the initial comparison. I find the inclusion of Brady maddening given that he has not performed consistently above his peers in any metric over the course of his career, and certainly nowhere close to the extent of Jordan/Gretzky and Djokovic as well.

I'm asking you to explain why you included him, then I can tell you where you are wrong.

This is a forum, not some official debating arena with set rules and regulations.
Click to expand...

Given how wrong you started off with here, not sure how you can seriously claim with a straight face that you're going to tell someone else he's wrong about something.

This is a discussion of elite mentality. Brady generally hasn't been as dominant as Jordan and Gretzky in the regular season, but he's come up clutch time and time again, enough so to set the super bowl wins record.

It's up to you to tell me why you out Djokovic in the same breath as Jordan or Gretzky (or Brady), and I'll gladly show you where you've erred, again.
 
Raducanu and Fernandez have both been on extraordinary runs on this tournament. The fascinating thing is that they'll actually be coming into this match as peers - and what impact that has.

So far they've been cast in the roles of hopeful prospects, match underdogs. Suddenly it's not so clear cut.
 
Another thing to point out is that they're both teenagers making their first slam final.

I read that the last time that happened was in 1999. Some people have argued (in the last few pages of this thread) that this is an indication of how weak the current WTA field is; I could argue the opposite. It looks promising if we have so many talented youngsters breaking through.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I don't understand what's great about that point. Around half of the shots aren't being made with the purpose of winning the point but rather to just knocking it about as a rally. This is what annoys me about tennis these days compared to in the 90's when it was much more attacking with players using serve and volley tactics. It can get really boring with points dragging on from beyond the baseline.
Click to expand...
 
jojojo said:
Click to expand...

This is good! A relatively minor point but when watching on Prime, the play is a point maybe two behind, so this means I can look on the app during the match without knowing what happens with a point before it happens.
 
Wonder what Megan Rapinoe thinks of this final?

Hopefully not too asian for her..
 
Why do most people make Raducanu the favourite? I know she's obliterated some of her opponents but Fernandez has beaten 3 x top 5 players so it would've been harder for her to look as good.
 
Raoul said:
This will actually made Tennis more interesting imo. I remember what it was like before the big three showed up and not knowing who would win the tournaments was actually a good thing.
Click to expand...
Well I’d add pre the big 3, you had Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Ivanisevic, Edberg, Hewitt. Not a bad bunch. I’m not seeing anyone as good. Hope I’m wrong though. Love to see another great emerge
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Elite in tennis terms but he isn't even close in terms of overall sports. He's had way too many blunders and let downs to even be in the discussion with Jordan (or Brady for that matter) in terms of greatest mentality in sports, nevermind comparing him in that regard to Gretzky.

I'm fine with you making the argument that he has a greater mentality than Nadal (which I wouldn't necessarily easily agree with, either), but to put him in the same conversation as the Gretzky, Jordan, and Brady is hyperbole, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Yes, I don’t think Djokovic is level with any of these people. Certainly not the likes of Gretzky or Brady.
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Well I’d add pre the big 3, you had Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Ivanisevic, Edberg, Hewitt. Not a bad bunch. I’m not seeing anyone as good. Hope I’m wrong though. Love to see another great emerge
Click to expand...

Loved Agassi as a kid. Used to buy the garish nineties tennis clobber he donned on the court. I was surprised when it emerged that he was partial to the odd crystal meth session or two.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Why do most people make Raducanu the favourite? I know she's obliterated some of her opponents but Fernandez has beaten 3 x top 5 players so it would've been harder for her to look as good.
Click to expand...
Because of the way she’s played I think. The slight disadvantage is that she’s not really been under any pressure while Fernandez has had a tough 3 setter, and against tougher opponents. I always felt a player needs a challenge prior to a final to bring out the best.
Fernandez is the slight favourite I think but Raducanu is physically stronger at 5’7” compared to Fernandez at 5’5”
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Why do most people make Raducanu the favourite? I know she's obliterated some of her opponents but Fernandez has beaten 3 x top 5 players so it would've been harder for her to look as good.
Click to expand...
It's difficult to know which route is more favourable so I think most the more convincing route of not dropping a set probably edges it. She also won their only head to head in juniors. There's not much to it either way in terms of who is favorite.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.