Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

calodo2003 said:
But it does somewhat pierce the perception of sanctity / the sacrosanct aspect of a religious tome, does it not?
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if you're a religious person, considering all of those revisions were subject to/overseen by clergy and ecclesiastical input, no, it wouldn't. biblical literalism is only one strain of interpretation. I'm not religious myself, I just find the idea that its been some completely evil influence on the world or that religious people should be immediately disrespected ignorant and childish
 
DJ Jeff said:
if you're a religious person, considering all of those revisions were subject to/overseen by clergy and ecclesiastical input, no, it wouldn't. biblical literalism is only one strain of interpretation. I'm not religious myself, I just find the idea that its been some completely evil influence on the world or that religious people should be immediately disrespected ignorant and childish
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Not completely evil, but its digressions tend to get overlooked by those who count themselves among the masses that follow it.

Appreciate the response to my initial question.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Sorry to respond to a day old post but:

If he had walked into a Mosque waving offensive pictures of Mohammed you might just have a parable here. Although I'm very confident you wouldn't get beheaded in either the Mosque in my example or the bar in yours but certainly it'd be a provocative act.

He was teaching in a classroom. A cnut killed him. There is not one iota of responsibility on the head of the victim.
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This is just like the rape discussions where people still find a way to put blame or some of the responsability on the victim of the rape because she was not dressed "properly".

The only victim here is the teacher. Nothing warrants that reaction. Absolutely nothing. We need to stop finding excuses for this kind of acts. The people that did this are just animals and do not deserve in any way to live with the rest of us. Hopefully everything is done to remove this type of people from society.
 
Shamana said:
Personally I quite liked this debate because I felt all 4 speakers were well picked and got their fair share of time. Dawkins of will speak what non-sense superstition in religion is, but he will hardly ever concede that anything good can be cultivated through religion.

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started well that, I’ll have to watch it all soon! Yeh Dawkins is a bit arrogant at times but I do like listening to his discussions.
 
Penna said:
Please can we keep this thread on topic, folks, rather than getting into a side discussion about changing religious texts? Thanks.
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If it is not about religion, then what is it about. Man beheaded for blasphemy. Slaying unbelievers should be allowed to be questioned as a practice?
 
e.cantona said:
If it is not about religion, then what is it about. Man beheaded for blasphemy. Slaying unbelievers should be allowed to be questioned as a practice?
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It's about the incident and the people involved. There will obviously be discussion about the murderer's motives, but it's not a general discussion thread about re-writing ancient texts.
 
Penna said:
It's about the incident and the people involved. There will obviously be discussion about the murderer's motives, but it's not a general discussion thread about re-writing ancient texts.
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It is kind of relevant, no?
 
Tragic. RIP.

Not an expert by any means, so feel free to correct me, but is there any way to 'de-radicalise' these individuals before it gets this bad, and is anything actually being done about it? By that I'm referring to measures against radicalization from both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities, and perhaps educational measures etc? Or perhaps targeting the elements which are responsible for this radicalization (easier said than done obviously).

I understand the whole war on terror, amping up security measures etc but it all seems secondary to some extent and not exactly targeting the root of the problem.
 
More details on the case.

Mr Ricard said Mr Paty had been the target of threats since he showed the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad during a class about freedom of speech, in relation to the Charlie Hebdo case.

Mr Paty, a history and geography teacher, advised Muslim students to look away if they thought they might be offended.

Students were said to be distraught at the brutal killing of a well-liked teacher. One father wrote on Twitter that his daughter "is in pieces, terrorised by the violence of such an act. How will I explain to her the unthinkable?"

One of Mr Paty's former students, Martial, 16, said he had loved his job: "He really wanted to teach us things - sometimes we had debates".


I think anyone blaming the victim with the details coming out needs to have a long, hard look at themselves.
 
SinNombre said:
More details on the case.

Mr Ricard said Mr Paty had been the target of threats since he showed the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad during a class about freedom of speech, in relation to the Charlie Hebdo case.

Mr Paty, a history and geography teacher, advised Muslim students to look away if they thought they might be offended.

Students were said to be distraught at the brutal killing of a well-liked teacher. One father wrote on Twitter that his daughter "is in pieces, terrorised by the violence of such an act. How will I explain to her the unthinkable?"

One of Mr Paty's former students, Martial, 16, said he had loved his job: "He really wanted to teach us things - sometimes we had debates".


I think anyone blaming the victim with the details coming out needs to have a long, hard look at themselves.
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so sad. I really think the only answer is Muslims come together to stop this. There’s no point western non Muslims slinging shit, maybe rightly, at the religion. It absolutely has to come from the Muslim community.
 
fergieisold said:
so sad. I really think the only answer is Muslims come together to stop this. There’s no point western non Muslims slinging shit, maybe rightly, at the religion. It absolutely has to come from the Muslim community.
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What does this mean? What is "the Muslim community" precisely? As part of the Christian community (I mean I'm an atheist but culturally I'm Christian so I guess I qualify) I think you and I should have a word with those Westboro Baptist Church tits or the bastards attacking (and occasionally killing) medical staff because they carry out terminations. It's down to us brother.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Tragic. RIP.

Not an expert by any means, so feel free to correct me, but is there any way to 'de-radicalise' these individuals before it gets this bad, and is anything actually being done about it? By that I'm referring to measures against radicalization from both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities, and perhaps educational measures etc? Or perhaps targeting the elements which are responsible for this radicalization (easier said than done obviously).

I understand the whole war on terror, amping up security measures etc but it all seems secondary to some extent and not exactly targeting the root of the problem.
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They are very slick in their recruitment. I mean these are not people living in caves anymore. They have a lot of high tech people involved in their efforts. A lot of brutal videos are shown to potential recruits. Videos of western invasion of the middle east. It is not based on Americans or British but even Russian bombing and killing of women and children. It is the Ummath issue.
Sort out the problems in the middle east and a lot of this problem is sorted out. That is where it starts and ends. Just like the radical christians support Israel these people will support the radical Islamists. I also think with the organisers money is also involved. Now who pays these people is surely something the authorities can find out or stop. There is a lot of money involved or they cannot be recruiting and paying high salaries for them to go and fight in other countries. No one is interested in doing this so some big player or players are behind this.
 
So I spoke about this to a few of my colleagues at work yesterday. One made a valid point or two.
We’ve all completely and utterly condemned what has happened to the teacher - and he clearly did nothing to deserve such an awful assassination.

But Macron saying that the teacher was murdered after he taught a freedom of expression. Is this quite hypocritical after France have banned burkas? I mean, that’s a mode of expression for muslims’ towards their commitment to their religion. I find the double standards very much one sided - which is no surprise given how partially racist areas of the country is.

Also is showing cartoons that reflect negatively, or ones that poke fun at Muhammad a good idea? It can be a recipe to brew a breed of youngsters who think it’s acceptable to not take other religions seriously and not to respect them.

As I said, I feel very sorry for the victim’s family. He definitely didn’t deserve such an end.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
So I spoke about this to a few of my colleagues at work yesterday. One made a valid point or two.
We’ve all completely and utterly condemned what has happened to the teacher - and he clearly did nothing to deserve such an awful assassination.

But Macron saying that the teacher was murdered after he taught a freedom of expression. Is this quite hypocritical after France have banned burkas? I mean, that’s a mode of expression for muslims’ towards their commitment to their religion. I find the double standards very much one sided - which is no surprise given how partially racist areas of the country is.

Also is showing cartoons that reflect negatively, or ones that poke fun at Muhammad a good idea? It can be a recipe to brew a breed of youngsters who think it’s acceptable to not take other religions seriously and not to respect them.

As I said, I feel very sorry for the victim’s family. He definitely didn’t deserve such an end.
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The French policies around speech and expression with their bizarre inconsistencies and hypocrisies, is definitely something worthy of discussion. However I think for the most part it should be separated from acts of brutally violent criminality. While there might be some crossover points and it might be argued that oppressive laws that target minority groups could contribute to a persons radicalisation, it also tempts an unhelpful, fallacious causal link.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
What does this mean? What is "the Muslim community" precisely? As part of the Christian community (I mean I'm an atheist but culturally I'm Christian so I guess I qualify) I think you and I should have a word with those Westboro Baptist Church tits or the bastards attacking (and occasionally killing) medical staff because they carry out terminations. It's down to us brother.
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The muslim community is, you know, all those that are...erm, Muslim! They've got cultural problems within the faith that clash with the west. This kind of thing doesn't seem to, on the face of it anyway, being resisted as strongly as it could. A significant minority of British Muslims are sympathetic towards terrorism, violence within the family, formation of islamic states. Section 11 of the link has a load of stats from polls, pretty difficult to interoperate without proper control polls though.

Yes, Christians can be extremists too, not sure how that absolves the problems within Islam though.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos-mori_0.pdf
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
So I spoke about this to a few of my colleagues at work yesterday. One made a valid point or two.
We’ve all completely and utterly condemned what has happened to the teacher - and he clearly did nothing to deserve such an awful assassination.

But Macron saying that the teacher was murdered after he taught a freedom of expression. Is this quite hypocritical after France have banned burkas? I mean, that’s a mode of expression for muslims’ towards their commitment to their religion. I find the double standards very much one sided - which is no surprise given how partially racist areas of the country is.

Also is showing cartoons that reflect negatively, or ones that poke fun at Muhammad a good idea? It can be a recipe to brew a breed of youngsters who think it’s acceptable to not take other religions seriously and not to respect them.

As I said, I feel very sorry for the victim’s family. He definitely didn’t deserve such an end.
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I don't really get why they banned the burqa...it's a silly thing for a women to have to wear out and about but it's not exactly a problem is it? I don't think we should have to take any religion seriously, it should be a matter of personal and private faith for those people. It crosses the line when it begins to actually affect non religious people that do something a religion doesn't like.
 
It is no surprise once again to see the usual suspects wade in with the same sweeping statements.

I don’t understand how people cannot see the human agency involved in an act like this which separates people who follow religions. As with everything in time, religion is something which evolves and can evolve, we have seen that it does and it still will. Of course the large majority of Muslim people condemn the actions of people who commit these crimes, as do the large majority of white people when someone commits a racist/Islamophobic attack such as the NZ shootings.

My partner who is Muslim has a completely different outlook on what it means and what it is to her parents for example due to me being a non-Muslim. That doesn’t make her any less of a person or a ‘worse’ Muslim. If you follow the scriptures/texts to an absolute T, perhaps, but there are also things which her parents have not followed when it comes to the religion. Human agency is a huge influence on how you choose to follow the religion and practice it.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
Also is showing cartoons that reflect negatively, or ones that poke fun at Muhammad a good idea? It can be a recipe to brew a breed of youngsters who think it’s acceptable to not take other religions seriously and not to respect them.
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I think the issue here is whether his actions promote hatred between people or blasphemy. For me, it’s the latter and since critique of religions is allowed in France, I see no issue of disrespect here. The professor did ask the students who are not comfortable with the subject/topic to leave, mind. So there’s that.
 
fergieisold said:
The muslim community is, you know, all those that are...erm, Muslim! They've got cultural problems within the faith that clash with the west. This kind of thing doesn't seem to, on the face of it anyway, being resisted as strongly as it could. A significant minority of British Muslims are sympathetic towards terrorism, violence within the family, formation of islamic states. Section 11 of the link has a load of stats from polls, pretty difficult to interoperate without proper control polls though.

Yes, Christians can be extremists too, not sure how that absolves the problems within Islam though.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos-mori_0.pdf
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I think you understood my point better than that @fergieisold . My point was not that Christians can also be cnuts but that your concept of a "Muslim community" is a fallacy.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
What does this mean? What is "the Muslim community" precisely? As part of the Christian community (I mean I'm an atheist but culturally I'm Christian so I guess I qualify) I think you and I should have a word with those Westboro Baptist Church tits or the bastards attacking (and occasionally killing) medical staff because they carry out terminations. It's down to us brother.
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Exactly this.
 
fergieisold said:
The muslim community is, you know, all those that are...erm, Muslim! They've got cultural problems within the faith that clash with the west. This kind of thing doesn't seem to, on the face of it anyway, being resisted as strongly as it could. A significant minority of British Muslims are sympathetic towards terrorism, violence within the family, formation of islamic states. Section 11 of the link has a load of stats from polls, pretty difficult to interoperate without proper control polls though.

Yes, Christians can be extremists too, not sure how that absolves the problems within Islam though.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos-mori_0.pdf
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Have you read your link?

"Across numerous surveys, only a tiny percentage of Muslims have expressed support or sympathy for terrorism. A recent
2016 survey found that on any act relating to violence, there were notably higher levels of condemnation among Muslim communities than for the population as a whole. Indeed, if anything sympathy for terrorist violence in the general
population (4%) was higher than among Muslims (2%)."
 
fergieisold said:
I really don't understand how me saying the Muslim community is a fallacy? Are you arguing there isn't one?

@Shamana Thanks for this, it was excellent.

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I am arguing there is no homogenous Muslim community that "can have a word with itself", yes. Furthermore, I'm suggesting it's ridiculous to consider there to be so if you think about it for a minute.
 
It's the height of hipocracy to claim that this has got anything to do with freedom of speech.
You can ban any comments against the holocaust but can say anything against Islam.
Anyway nothing is justifiable in killing another person.
But it's political hipocracy that brings these actions. Priti Patel demonising human rights lawyers have led to a knife attack in England on a human rights lawyer. Luckily he was brought under control.
Where is the call for her resignation? In fact Boris Johnson supported her.
 
Foxbatt said:
It's the height of hipocracy to claim that this has got anything to do with freedom of speech.
You can ban any comments against the holocaust but can say anything against Islam.
Anyway nothing is justifiable in killing another person.
But it's political hipocracy that brings these actions. Priti Patel demonising human rights lawyers have led to a knife attack in England on a human rights lawyer. Luckily he was brought under control.
Where is the call for her resignation? In fact Boris Johnson supported her.
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I know where you're coming from and I imagine we'd largely agree (notably on Patel's actions: she is a vile human being):

However, the fact that arseholes and racists use free speech as an excuse to be appalling and that this is often used as a cloak to attack Islam and Muslims does not mean that the teacher in the classroom was doing so. It is, to my mind, entirely acceptable for the cartoons to be viewed and discussed in an educational environment (run into a Mosque waving them? Get arrested) and it would be unacceptable to me to prevent this. Groups of society, minority or majority, religious or secular, should not be able to censor education and thought.
 
Absolutely horrible.

Do those terrorists even realize that they're mocking their "God", "Allah" or whatever with their actions?

How pathetic and insecure must their idol be, if they think their God needs some tiny hooligans on planet earth to murder random guys, who have only shown carricatures of said God.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Have you read your link?

"Across numerous surveys, only a tiny percentage of Muslims have expressed support or sympathy for terrorism. A recent
2016 survey found that on any act relating to violence, there were notably higher levels of condemnation among Muslim communities than for the population as a whole. Indeed, if anything sympathy for terrorist violence in the general
population (4%) was higher than among Muslims (2%)."
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I read it and it seems he hasn't, the controls are part of the review. It's only pretty difficult if you haven't read the darn thing. The "significant minority" and "violence within the family" comments are just gibberish.
 
Foxbatt said:
It's the height of hipocracy to claim that this has got anything to do with freedom of speech.
You can ban any comments against the holocaust but can say anything against Islam.
Anyway nothing is justifiable in killing another person.
But it's political hipocracy that brings these actions. Priti Patel demonising human rights lawyers have led to a knife attack in England on a human rights lawyer. Luckily he was brought under control.
Where is the call for her resignation? In fact Boris Johnson supported her.
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I always wondered why some people are so eager to deny the holocaust though? Its a historical event. What is the motivation?
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Have you read your link?

"Across numerous surveys, only a tiny percentage of Muslims have expressed support or sympathy for terrorism. A recent
2016 survey found that on any act relating to violence, there were notably higher levels of condemnation among Muslim communities than for the population as a whole. Indeed, if anything sympathy for terrorist violence in the general
population (4%) was higher than among Muslims (2%)."
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There was no good control study from what I could tell. I stand by my point that the majority of Muslims are peaceful normal people, but there’s a non negligible proportion that are not.
 
Shamana said:
I always wondered why some people are so eager to deny the holocaust though? Its a historical event. What is the motivation?
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Do they deny the Holocaust in its whole, or do they deny the number of deaths?
 
VorZakone said:
Do they deny the Holocaust in its whole, or do they deny the number of deaths?
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I dont know. Basically its seems to be part of a conspiracy theory that the holocaust was fabricated to validate zionism.
 
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Joga Bonito said:
Tragic. RIP.

Not an expert by any means, so feel free to correct me, but is there any way to 'de-radicalise' these individuals before it gets this bad, and is anything actually being done about it? By that I'm referring to measures against radicalization from both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities, and perhaps educational measures etc? Or perhaps targeting the elements which are responsible for this radicalization (easier said than done obviously).

I understand the whole war on terror, amping up security measures etc but it all seems secondary to some extent and not exactly targeting the root of the problem.
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I fear that while for a long time the world in general was moving towards deradicalization, at least culturally (it may very well be an illusion), now it's going another way, and fast. And not only in Muslim communities – in most of the Western countries there's been a significant rise in popularity of alt-right movements; Hindu nationalism is on the rise in India, Turkey have turned their back on Atatürk's ideals, Russia keeps antagonising the West, the less is said about Trump and Boris, the better...
 
I'm going to add for the benefit of those that desperately want to talk about Islam and scriptural texts, there is nothing wrong with either, and though there are numerous well-documented problems in how it is opportunistically taught and understood [human agency - as people in here have already mentioned - and much of it in reaction to the injustices/conditions brang upon by the liberal West], Islam will never fundamentally change or as some put it: get "watered down" because it doesn't need to.

I found this an interesting watch couple days back, for those who have the time.

 
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nimic said:
Venezuela isn't a Western country.
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It also isn't particularly radicalized. It's just an example of decades worth of governmental ineptitude and corruption culminating in devastating hyperinflation, poverty, famine and death. It is a failed state.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
I'm going to add for the benefit of those that desperately want to talk about Islam and scriptural texts, there is nothing wrong with either, and though there are numerous well-documented problems in how it is opportunistically taught and understood [human agency - as people in here have already mentioned - and much of it in reaction to the injustices/conditions brang upon by the liberal West], Islam will never fundamentally change or as some put it: get "watered down" because it doesn't need to.

I found this an interesting watch couple days back, for those who have the time.

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This is a big subject to get into, but that's quite a statement. As an atheist I would personally argue that pretty much all religious texts are based on a flawed premise. That is not to single out Islam in particular though. That being said, I don't go around saying that to people of faiths, because 99% of people are perfectly reasonable and fine, and I'm not fussed if someone chooses to believe something that I don't, as long as it doesn't have a real impact on me, and I'm certainly not intelligent enough to find the answers. In general I think it is clearly the extremist element that needs to be combatted. There is a poem that I quite like by the mathemetician and poet (among other things) Omar Khayyam, and often think of when you see extremists claiming some form of moral authority. From memory, so apologies.

''And do you think that unto such as you
a maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well - what matters it? Believe that too!"
 
DanH said:
This is a big subject to get into, but that's quite a statement. As an atheist I would personally argue that pretty much all religious texts are based on a flawed premise. That is not to single out Islam in particular though. That being said, I don't go around saying that to people of faiths, because 99% of people are perfectly reasonable and fine, and I'm not fussed if someone chooses to believe something that I don't, as long as it doesn't have a real impact on me, and I'm certainly not intelligent enough to find the answers. In general I think it is clearly the extremist element that needs to be combatted. There is a poem that I quite like by the mathemetician and poet (among other things) Omar Khayyam, and often think of when you see extremists claiming some form of moral authority. From memory, so apologies.

''And do you think that unto such as you
a maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well - what matters it? Believe that too!"
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Of course questions like the existence of God (the premis of scripture you alluded to) is open for debate and is discussed by much more learned minds than ourselves, but my statement is in relation to the often implied or directly suggested idea that Islam in its' state is problematic to our society.

I respect and appreciate the part in bold.

I again highly recommend the vid in my previous post which compares the basis of liberal ideals to traditional Islamic ones.

Edit:

With timestamps

Human rights and liberal contractariansm


Social contract with sovereign leader/government and moral possibilities


Apostasy and treason


Liberalism as religion
 
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