Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

[calodo2003]

Would you apply to same logic to something like capitalism? Fantastic advancements but ultimately responsible for more war, poverty and overall suffering in the last 100 years than any other single ideology or belief system in human history.

Damn, I was not even thinking about this ‘ism.’ It absolutely needs to be looked at in the same vein. Its successes do not absolve its failures nor should that be the case forever. To not realize a situation for what it really is smacks of sheer lunacy. Nothing should be held as sacrosanct no matter how positive its past success is.

 

[Jippy]

I’m sure that does to some. The holocaust was a purge of homosexuals along with the rest, it seems that the genocide had some religious overtones to it. It’s foolish to not realize both are correct.

It was more racial and, as someone else said, eugenics, rather than religious for me. Religion did obviously add to the jews' otherness though.

 

[calodo2003]

It was more racial and, as someone else said, eugenics, rather than religious for me. Religion did obviously add to the jews' otherness though.

You’re right, it did have a heavy eugenic slant, but you’re also right that homosexuals were specifically targeted as a particular group.

 

[Penna]

I said I question people's mental health when they get all agressive about something like religion. Stop taking that comment out of context. Many people believed in Hitler too. Doesn't make it better (and no I don't compare religion to Hitler, but arguments like "x people believe in so and so, so stop beeing so offensive" don't work).

You also said this to @dumbo:

Mate I'd actually apply for guardianship for anyone that in this day and age still believes in God so get off your high horse.

You see, when you make these ridiculous statements someone will call you out eventually. The Hitler analogy is illogical as he was a political leader, not a god - people believed in what he was saying, not that he actually existed. They weren't mentally ill, either.

 

[Gehrman]

Would you apply to same logic to something like capitalism? Fantastic advancements but ultimately responsible for more war, poverty and overall suffering in the last 100 years than any other single ideology or belief system in human history.

How would you calculate how much war, poverty and suffering can be attrubuted to capitalism?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

How would you calculate how much war, poverty and suffering can be attrubuted to capitalism?

How do you attribute any cause to any effect?

But anyway, this is off topic, I was just interested as to whether that poster was willing to apply the same logic to other ideologies as he was to religion.

 

[Synco]

Okay. Toddle on.

It was your chance to make an actual argument for a change. I'm not the toddler here.

 

[ThatsGreat]

If its a single person taking a stand then they can be eliminated. Larger number of people need to start drawing caricatures of mohammad so as to make the target bigger. If someone's sensibilities are offended then they can leave or come to terms with it. But if its Charlie Hebdo, or one isolated guy here and there, then they're just painting a big bullseye on their backs.

 

[calodo2003]

How do you attribute any cause to any effect?

But anyway, this is off topic, I was just interested as to whether that poster was willing to apply the same logic to other ideologies as he was to religion.

It would be less easy to quantify for sure, but such deaths happen every day unfortunately.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Can’t find any from the most recent incident, but here are some that sparked the Danish kerfuffle (violent protests erupted from it):

https://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/2006/12/12-muhammed-drawings.html?m=1

As you can see, they were obviously ‘bad’ enough to incite violent riots. Embarrassing.

Hebdo’s were more visceral, just can’t find them all together.

Since you have shared those photos, though not drawing them, is that also a transgression? I guess so, right?

 

[calodo2003]

Since you have shared those photos, though not drawing them, is that also a transgression? I guess so, right?

Waiting for the knock on my door any second now...

 

[Gehrman]

How do you attribute any cause to any effect?

But anyway, this is off topic, I was just interested as to whether that poster was willing to apply the same logic to other ideologies as he was to religion.

Well that's the point isn't it. It's complex. Capitalism is ultimately about property relations and the free market. I don't have a raging hard-on for capitalism, but it is a bit weird for me to hear that capitalism has caused more wars, deaths, poverty and suffering than anything in history.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

A first step might be to avoid needless provocation... I mean, what's happened here is horrific, but was what was the victim was trying to protest here worth the cost they paid?

If I walked into an LGBTQ+ bar spouting bible verse about how they're all gonna burn in hell, and didnt expect to have my head caved in, am I not guilty of being a bit naive?

Sorry to respond to a day old post but:

If he had walked into a Mosque waving offensive pictures of Mohammed you might just have a parable here. Although I'm very confident you wouldn't get beheaded in either the Mosque in my example or the bar in yours but certainly it'd be a provocative act.

He was teaching in a classroom. A cnut killed him. There is not one iota of responsibility on the head of the victim.

 

[Gehrman]

Sorry to respond to a day old post but:

If he had walked into a Mosque waving offensive pictures of Mohammed you might just have a parable here. Although I'm very confident you wouldn't get beheaded in either the Mosque in my example or the bar in yours but certainly it'd be a provocative act.

He was teaching in a classroom. A cnut killed him. There is not one iota of responsibility on the head of the victim.

This, he was teaching about free speech in his classroom in a secular country and even offered his muslim students the oppourtunity to leave. He wasn't burning the Quran in the great mosque in Mecca.

 

[calodo2003]

Well that's the point isn't it. It's complex. Capitalism is ultimately about property relations and the free market. I don't have a raging hard-on for capitalism, but it is a bit weird for me to hear that capitalism has caused more wars, deaths, poverty and suffering than anything in history.

Definitely wasn’t saying capitalism has caused more deaths than anything else in history, it’s just another ‘ism’ that does have blood on its hands.

 

[Gehrman]

Definitely wasn’t saying capitalism has caused more deaths than anything else in history, it’s just another ‘ism’ that does have blood on its hands.

Ok.

 

[carvajal]

At this point you shouldn't mesh up the two together.

1. ISIS had a lot of commanders/people from Chechnya, but those are the guys who were active in Chechnya in the 90's/early 00's – and had to flee or be killed
2. Current Chechnya certainly has a leaning towards a very radical interpretation of Islam, but the only thing they don't have is ISIS connections. This is the only reason Kadyrov is still at power – basically at some point Putin cut a deal with Kadyrov-senior (who had been blown up by terrorists at some point later) that gave Chechnya a de-facto autonomy & an enormous financial backing in the exchange of them getting rid of their inner radical Islamic terrorism problem
3. More so, I'd argue that the current religious radicalisation of Chechnya has only one goal – to create a more controlled state with a certain set of punishable rules around the figure of their national leader (so it's more of a totalitarian state than a truly religious one)

Thanks for the clarification. It seems then that a whole generation of Chechens has been mentally fecked,and perhaps they have ended up radicalizing their children

 

[calodo2003]

The parents of pupils at the school who allegedly threatened the teacher should also be arrested and prosecuted.

Apparently one of another student’s parents has been arrested along with the family of the decapitator.

 

[e.cantona]

Would you apply to same logic to something like capitalism? Fantastic advancements but ultimately responsible for more war, poverty and overall suffering in the last 100 years than any other single ideology or belief system in human history.

Just curious. How is capitalism responsible for all that? War, poverty and suffering

 

[harms]

Thanks for the clarification. It seems then that a whole generation of Chechens has been mentally fecked,and perhaps they have ended up radicalizing their children

Yeah, the generation that grew up/matured during the war (2 wars) was drastically radicalised. Part of them adjusted to Kadyrov's rule (hence the recent killings of homosexuals etc. – Chechen's government makes sure that they always have "an enemy" present), part of them that fought for another side fled the country, mostly to the Middle East. Well, the radical part of that generation – obviously the majority are still peaceful and reasonable but, as it's almost always the case, the radicals are the one that make the news.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Would you apply to same logic to something like capitalism? Fantastic advancements but ultimately responsible for more war, poverty and overall suffering in the last 100 years than any other single ideology or belief system in human history.

IMHO the world was never better than now, and thanks to capitalism

 

[calodo2003]

Just curious. How is capitalism responsible for all that? War, poverty and suffering

I think the easiest responsibility to gauge is the degradation of the environment for capitalistic gains & the suffering it has caused throughout the centuries.

 

[Kopral Jono]

My only problem with Western critiques of Islam is, most often than not, they're superficial in nature and the most vocal ones are typically the first who claim open-mindedness and the like. It's not that one is not allowed to make fun of Islam, I'm a proponent of free speech and there are indeed some extremely dodgy aspects within the faith, but it's boring and it feels a bit hypocritical at times if you ask me.

There are surely better ways than just ironically saying 'religion of peace' like a broken record each time these things happen.

 

[calodo2003]

IMHO the world was never better than now, and thanks to capitalism

We are at somewhat of a pinnacle due to capitalism, but that hasn’t come with an unblemished history for it.

 

[2cents]

So it seems some of his students’ parents (and presumably some students themselves) may have played some kind of part in this. Has any link been established between them and the attacker?

 

[calodo2003]

So it seems some of his students’ parents (and presumably some students themselves) may have played some kind of part in this. Has any link been established between them and the attacker?

One has been arrested, but no context was given to that person’s relationship with the decapitator.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

IMHO the world was never better than now, and thanks to capitalism

That's a fair perspective, although probably one influenced by the fact that the way resources have been distributed under capitalism has led to you having the internet and a smartphone/computer. If it had left you, like it leaves millions of people every year, starving whilst multinational corporations feed your country's agricultural produce to factory farmed livestock to sell to Americans, or export it to Europe to feed to free range cows to feed to Europeans, you'd probably have a different perspective. Undoubtedly capitalism has made amazing things possible by the way organisations can amass resources, it's also led to millions of deaths by the way it directs resources away from people who can't pay for them. It will probably end up killing us all as we destroy the planet in its name.

Which is all besides the point though. The poster I was replying to was saying that the positives of religion were made redundant by the negatives. I was trying to ascertain whether he was treating religion differently than he'd treat another ideology, rather than trying to get into a discussion about whether capitalism is good or bad or not.

Anyway I'm taking away from the point of the thread so I won't digress further. @e.cantona and @Shamana - I hope you get something of an answer to your comments in the above. Would be happy to discuss further in a more suitable thread.

 

[e.cantona]

I think the easiest responsibility to gauge is the degradation of the environment for capitalistic gains & the suffering it has caused throughout the centuries.

Ok, but if there was no capitalism, whatever capitalism is that other systems are not. Would the world be less messed up?

With religion you can do this. No religion 10.000 or 1.000 years ago, would the world be a better place. Maybe, maybe not. Today? Yes, most likely a better place, imo.

 

[Marcosdeto]

We are at somewhat of a pinnacle due to capitalism, but that hasn’t come with an unblemished history for it.

of course not. i'm not saying capitalism is perfect, but there hasn't been found, yet, a better system
the same happens with democracy, is it perfect? far from it, but what is it better?

 

[e.cantona]

Anyway I'm taking away from the point of the thread so I won't digress further. @e.cantona and @Shamana - I hope you get something of an answer to your comments in the above. Would be happy to discuss further in a more suitable thread.

no worries

 

[Marcosdeto]

That's a fair perspective, although probably one influenced by the fact that the way resources have been distributed under capitalism has led to you having the internet and a smartphone/computer. If it had left you, like it leaves millions of people every year, starving whilst multinational corporations feed your country's agricultural produce to factory farmed livestock to sell to Americans, or export it to Europe to feed to free range cows to feed to Europeans, you'd probably have a different perspective. Undoubtedly capitalism has made amazing things possible by the way organisations can amass resources, it's also led to millions of deaths by the way it directs resources away from people who can't pay for them. It will probably end up killing us all as we destroy the planet in its name.

Which is all besides the point though. The poster I was replying to was saying that the positives of religion were made redundant by the negatives. I was trying to ascertain whether he was treating religion differently than he'd treat another ideology, rather than trying to get into a discussion about whether capitalism is good or bad or not.

Anyway I'm taking away from the point of the thread so I won't digress further. @e.cantona and @Shamana - I hope you get something of an answer to your comments in the above. Would be happy to discuss further in a more suitable thread.

there's no way i can argue that capitalism has it's flaws, I would be blind if i did
still, thanks to capitalism, the number of poor people has decreased, so has the life expectancy, the confortness we have is incredible
i remember visiting an old castle in Ireland, it was from the 13th century, it was a guided visit, and what shocked me is that the king from that age lived a lot worse than most of the poor persons from today
and, correct me if i'm wrong, i'm not expert, i think capitalism is the reason why we have a much better life now

 

[calodo2003]

Ok, but if there was no capitalism, whatever capitalism is that other systems are not. Would the world be less messed up?

With religion you can do this. No religion 10.000 or 1.000 years ago, would the world be a better place. Maybe, maybe not. Today? Yes, most likely a better place, imo.

I’m not anti-capitalist & agree with you on this. It’s better than whatever alternative might exist in its place, even with all its flaws.

 

[calodo2003]

of course not. i'm not saying capitalism is perfect, but there hasn't been found, yet, a better system
the same happens with democracy, is it perfect? far from it, but what is it better?

No worries, brother, we think the same in this regard.

 

[Marcosdeto]

No worries, brother, we think the same in this regard.

that's because we are both genius, that's the only conclusion

 

[calodo2003]

that's because we are both genius, that's the only conclusion

Difficult to see it any differently.

 

[DJ Jeff]

i think suggesting that religious texts be edited to reflect modern ethics, as if that's a completely reasonable solution or should be taken as such, shows a complete ignorance for the sanctity of these texts down to the very word in the lives of religious people.

 

[Gehrman]

i think suggesting that religious texts be edited to reflect modern ethics, as if that's a completely reasonable solution or should be taken as such, shows a complete ignorance for the sanctity of these texts down to the very word in the lives of religious people.

That was in jest. It would spark off god knows much conflict as well. But since devout religous people often demand censorship it would be fun to see atheists demand that they censor themselves and their scriptures which modern day secularists consider destructive, offensive and oppresive.

 

[calodo2003]

i think suggesting that religious texts be edited to reflect modern ethics, as if that's a completely reasonable solution or should be taken as such, shows a complete ignorance for the sanctity of these texts down to the very word in the lives of religious people.

Curious to know your thoughts regarding the different versions of the bible?

 

[DJ Jeff]

Curious to know your thoughts regarding the different versions of the bible?

something like the KJV is not comparable to what would essentially be an atheistic restructuring of a religious text

 

[calodo2003]

something like the KJV is not comparable to what would essentially be an atheistic restructuring of a religious text

But it does somewhat pierce the perception of sanctity / the sacrosanct aspect of a religious tome, does it not?