Music Taylor Swift

I'm not sure that's just objectively though. I mean sure we can talk about far better singers, musicians, producers and all that stuff but ultimately who decides how much talent you need to be that big? And in what areas? You obviously know far more than I in this area, and have heard far more talented people who never make it, but it does take a genuine spark to do what she has. Like I said, Bieber is similar, he is all pop and show but watch the Manchester one love gig and tell me that he at least can't do it to a respectful level. That at least puts these guys above most else and speaks to perhaps why they break that level even beyond other manufactured "stars".

She can sing ok, she can play many instruments ok, she can write a decent tune...but she can also put on a very good show just by herself doing all that and then knows how to amp it up. I have a lot more respect for that level than I do people who have everything done for them. Whilst not on the level of talent someone like Gaga genuinely has, I'd say she is still far beyond most others as a whole.

Plus, you have to admit, taking back her music the way she is doing is something else. Regardless of the reasons and the money behind it, the entertainment industry all round is rotten right now and using her power to fight back even a bit is something no one else even bothers with.



Then again I recently watched Blink 182 live and it was genuinely one of the best gigs I can remember, and I've seen a hell of a lot of the best over the years, so I'm questioning myself a lot about this stuff lately :lol:


Yeah as I said above I'm a big fan of hers.

What I mean about objectively is that the music is perfectly crafted but ultimately quite bland and incredibly safe. It's an amazing product but not even close to nudging any real artisic boundaries.

That is part of the secret to her success. She will never really alienate a fan. Some will grow out of crazed phase but it's always a nice warm fuzziness in their past. Like a Boy or Girl band but without the multiple personalities to manage. She can keep it all on track.

With only subtle directional changes she gets generation after generation of fans. It's a marketing bod and financier's dream. She has no notions beyond what she does and I have very few doubts she will be selling out stadiums in 20 years. She's a smart lady, a really solid songwriter, singer and guitar player but really an awesome business woman and brilliant entertainer. She's a phenomal package, but the actual music is kind of ordinary.
 
Yeah as I said above I'm a big fan of hers.

What I mean about objectively is that the music is perfectly crafted but ultimately quite bland and incredibly safe. It's an amazing product but not even close to nudging any real artisic boundaries.

That is part of the secret to her success. She will never really alienate a fan. Some will grow out of crazed phase but it's always a nice warm fuzziness in their past.

With only subtle directional changes she gets generation after generation of fans. It's a marketing bod and financier's dream. She has no notions beyond what she does and I have very few doubts she will be selling out stadiums in 20 years. She's a smart lady, a really solid songwriter, singer and guitar player but really an awesome business women and brilliant entertainer. She's a phenomal package, but the actual music is kind of ordinary.

Absolutely fair and that about sums up "pop". Same with films, same with video games, same with anything consumer related really.

What intrigues me more is the people who can't see the similarities between someone like Swift and the movies they love or the games they adore. We all have our thing, our vices and all that, but if you want to go at "manufactured pop" then there are far more blatant targets than her.
 
Absolutely fair and that about sums up "pop". Same with films, same with video games, same with anything consumer related really.

What intrigues me more is the people who can't see the similarities between someone like Swift and the movies they love or the games they adore. We all have our thing, our vices and all that, but if you want to go at "manufactured pop" then there are far more blatant targets than her.

I don't think it's fair to compare commercial pop music with no substance to games or movies. I'm probably misunderstanding what you mean, but what similarities are you talking about?
 
Absolutely fair and that about sums up "pop". Same with films, same with video games, same with anything consumer related really.

What intrigues me more is the people who can't see the similarities between someone like Swift and the movies they love or the games they adore. We all have our thing, our vices and all that, but if you want to go at "manufactured pop" then there are far more blatant targets than her.


Oh yeah. When my kids aged about 10 were telling me how good she was, it was quite funny how much they stressed to their music obsessed Dad that she did write the songs and played the guitar. I'd say they were listening in secret til they realised that.

She has way more talent than 99% of pop artists which is why she stands out, she has more brains than most and infinitely more business acumen.

What she does, she does better than nearly everyone else. But the music is only a fraction of the why.

I'm not sure I get the games comparison, some of those people are groundbreaking and cutting edge?

Hollywood movies, yes, a bit more so. Formulaic, safe and packaged and produced and delivered amazingly.
 
I mean sure we can talk about far better singers, musicians, producers and all that stuff but ultimately who decides how much talent you need to be that big? And in what areas? You obviously know far more than I in this area, and have heard far more talented people who never make it, but it does take a genuine spark to do what she has. Like I said, Bieber is similar, he is all pop and show but watch the Manchester one love gig and tell me that he at least can't do it to a respectful level. That at least puts these guys above most else and speaks to perhaps why they break that level even beyond other manufactured "stars".
Of course they are talented. You cannot be successful for a sustained period without talent. I don't think that's the proposition here (at least from myself). Considering that I write and produce (amateurly) my own music, I know that even artists I don't personally rate or admire have a certain level of baseline talent or above / way above, that goes beyond the regular singer. For example, I think Beiber as an artist releases basic uninteresting pop music but hear him live and he's got a good strong voice. Gaga again is not an artist who is to my liking, but has a fine voice. Same with Miley Cyrus - I'd argue that she has one of the best set of pipes on any female mainstream vocalist out there. But over and above that - considering the general talent in the talent pool and sheer volume of great vocalists / guitar players out there, the differentiator often, purely in mainstream music, tends to also be the personality or likeability or stage presence - anything - that sets them apart enough to make them a household name.

What I'm on about is that having accepted the baseline of talent and star quality, the disproportion of fame vs quality in Swift's case seems more than most. Mainstream pop music with its conforming nature and stifling of genuine creativity will never be the thing that I fawn over - I'd take one incredibly written Joanna Newsom song over Madonna's entire catalogue. But even so, there's fame and then there's mad fame. And when you see someone like Michael Jackson have it you can see that even if he's not everyone's cup of team he was exceptionally talented musically by any metric. While Swift's fame is nowhere near those levels, she seems to be biggest artist around right now which to me is quite surprising given that musically, having accepted the baseline of talent / star quality as above, she is really quite average at nearly everything (except marketing as I note below).

but she can also put on a very good show just by herself doing all that and then knows how to amp it up. I have a lot more respect for that level than I do people who have everything done for them. Whilst not on the level of talent someone like Gaga genuinely has, I'd say she is still far beyond most others as a whole.

Plus, you have to admit, taking back her music the way she is doing is something else. Regardless of the reasons and the money behind it, the entertainment industry all round is rotten right now and using her power to fight back even a bit is something no one else even bothers with.
Yeah that is probably the biggest reason - consistency and career / marketing / fan management. But as someone who is very passionate about songwriting, the business and image side of things will never mean much to me. But hers is a test case of how much it matters really.
 
:lol: I love how Lambs keeps trying to bring this back to gaming but nobody knows what the old coot (is what one would say) is on about.

I don't think it's fair to compare commercial pop music with no substance to games or movies. I'm probably misunderstanding what you mean, but what similarities are you talking about?

I'm not sure I get the games comparison, some of those people are groundbreaking and cutting edge?

Hollywood movies, yes, a bit more so. Formulaic, safe and packaged and produced and delivered amazingly.

I think what he's trying to say is that she is the CoD or FIFA of music. How dare he?! @Snowjoe this is unacceptable.
 
Yeah as I said above I'm a big fan of hers.

What I mean about objectively is that the music is perfectly crafted but ultimately quite bland and incredibly safe. It's an amazing product but not even close to nudging any real artisic boundaries.

That is part of the secret to her success. She will never really alienate a fan. Some will grow out of crazed phase but it's always a nice warm fuzziness in their past. Like a Boy or Girl band but without the multiple personalities to manage. She can keep it all on track.

With only subtle directional changes she gets generation after generation of fans. It's a marketing bod and financier's dream. She has no notions beyond what she does and I have very few doubts she will be selling out stadiums in 20 years. She's a smart lady, a really solid songwriter, singer and guitar player but really an awesome business woman and brilliant entertainer. She's a phenomal package, but the actual music is kind of ordinary.

The problem with such a nuanced position is that I'd have to listen to that bland crap. Not as bad as Beyonce but on a par with Ee Sheeran. All have done really well, 2 of the three seem like nice enough people (I have no idea about Beyoncé as I don't think I've ever herd her speak/be interviewed) but zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Although from what little of chart music I accidentally hear these days there is far far worse out there. I hear something by The Kid Leroy they other day after hearing him praised to high heaven, and I wanted to poke my ears out so bad was it.

I get Lady Gaga as she is obviously talented musically, vocally in particular, even if I don't always like her songs. However, I don't get why Adele is so popular. A good voice in many ways but so samey (songs and voice).
 
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What I'm on about is that having accepted the baseline of talent and star quality, the disproportion of fame vs quality in Swift's case seems more than most. Mainstream pop music with its conforming nature and stifling of genuine creativity will never be the thing that I fawn over - I'd take one incredibly written Joanna Newsom song over Madonna's entire catalogue.

This is something I was just thinking about last night when I was listening to Fiona Apple again. She's a far better songwriter (she's exceptional), pianist and singer than Taylor Swift. But she was never after fame and radio appeal or was unable to do so. Your Joanna (who I like a lot) is my Fiona, I suppose.
 
This is something I was just thinking about last night when I was listening to Fiona Apple again. She's a far better songwriter (she's exceptional), pianist and singer than Taylor Swift. But she was never after fame and radio appeal or was unable to do so. Your Joanna (who I like a lot) is my Fiona, I suppose.
Fiona is wonderful. The Idler Wheel.. would make was my favourite albums list if I drew one up.
 
Comparing mainstream music to alternative music is incredibly pointless. They're completely different genres with completely different objectives.
 
#92 "this is me trying" (2020)



folklore, the lockdown surprise album she created in under three months, is simply a masterpiece. Many consider it her greatest work.

This is a song about mental health. Or an addiction. Or everyday struggles.

They told me all of my cages were mental
So I got wasted like all my potential
And my words shoot to kill when I'm mad
I have a lot of regrets about that
I was so ahead of the curve, the curve became a sphere
Fell behind on my classmates, and I ended up here
Pouring out my heart to a stranger
But I didn't pour the whiskey


Lyrics cut deep.

 
#91 "Last Kiss" (2010)



One of Taylor's saddest heartbreak songs. Gut-wrenching.

You can plan for a change in the weather and time
But I never planned on you changing your mind


 
#92 "this is me trying" (2020)



folklore, the lockdown surprise album she created in under three months, is simply a masterpiece. Many consider it her greatest work.

This is a song about mental health. Or an addiction. Or everyday struggles.

They told me all of my cages were mental
So I got wasted like all my potential
And my words shoot to kill when I'm mad
I have a lot of regrets about that
I was so ahead of the curve, the curve became a sphere
Fell behind on my classmates, and I ended up here
Pouring out my heart to a stranger
But I didn't pour the whiskey


Lyrics cut deep.


#91 "Last Kiss" (2010)



One of Taylor's saddest heartbreak songs. Gut-wrenching.

You can plan for a change in the weather and time
But I never planned on you changing your mind




Those lyrics! :lol:

This is all a big wind up, isn’t it? You love winding people up. You do it all the time. No grown adult takes Taylor Swift’s music/lyrics that seriously. When’s the big reveal?!
 
#92 "this is me trying" (2020)



folklore, the lockdown surprise album she created in under three months, is simply a masterpiece. Many consider it her greatest work.

This is a song about mental health. Or an addiction. Or everyday struggles.

They told me all of my cages were mental
So I got wasted like all my potential
And my words shoot to kill when I'm mad
I have a lot of regrets about that
I was so ahead of the curve, the curve became a sphere
Fell behind on my classmates, and I ended up here
Pouring out my heart to a stranger
But I didn't pour the whiskey


Lyrics cut deep.



92 is criminal
 
Those lyrics! :lol:

This is all a big wind up, isn’t it? You love winding people up. You do it all the time. No grown adult takes Taylor Swift’s music/lyrics that seriously. When’s the big reveal?!

have to agree
 
Those lyrics! :lol:

This is all a big wind up, isn’t it? You love winding people up. You do it all the time. No grown adult takes Taylor Swift’s music/lyrics that seriously. When’s the big reveal?!

Stop hating!

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#90 "Bad Blood" ft. Kendrick Lamar (2015)



The remix that made Kendrick famous. This star-studded music video features 17 celebs and has notched up 1.5 billion views. Song is about Taylor's feud with Katy Perry. They've since kissed and made up so all good now in case anyone's wondering.

It's a catchy tune but the lyrics are underwhelming from such good lyricists.



 
#90 "Bad Blood" ft. Kendrick Lemar (2015)


The remix that made Kendrick famous
. This star-studded music video features 17 celebs and has notched up 1.5 billion views. Song is about Taylor's feud with Katy Perry. They've since kissed and made up so all good now in case anyone's wondering.

It's a catchy tune but the lyrics are underwhelming from such good lyricists.





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#91 "Last Kiss" (2010)



One of Taylor's saddest heartbreak songs. Gut-wrenching.

You can plan for a change in the weather and time
But I never planned on you changing your mind



You’ve lost all credibility putting this 91. And below Bad Blood??? :lol:
 
You’ve lost all credibility putting this 91. And below Bad Blood??? :lol:

Have to admit it's a song I often skip because it reminds me of my ex. I don't need constant reminders of her.

I'm open to VAR checking it higher on the list later down the line. Objectively it's better than a lot of her meh radio hits.
 
#88 "The Way I Loved You" (2008)



A song about how love drives you crazy but you keep going back for more. A toxic relationship?

Or a song about being in a relationship with a new person but missing the old one.

Or she wrote this at 15 and was just rambling on about what she thought was the perfect relationship based on very little experience?

 
#87 "gold rush" (2020)



Our first look at evermore in this countdown, the second part of the two spontaneous folk albums when the world closed down. Two albums and 30 odd new songs created and released in the space of months. Just the signs of a truly remarkable artist.

This song takes place inside a single daydream where you get lost in thought for a minute and then snap out of it.

 
#86 "Miss Americana & the Heartbreak Prince" (2019)



This song is about the 2016 elections and the disillusionment with the crazy world of politics and inequality, set in a metaphorical high school.

It’s about the illusions of what I thought America was before our political landscape took this turn, and that naivete that we used to have about it. And it’s also the idea of people who live in America, who just want to live their lives, make a living, have a family, love who they love, and watching those people lose their rights, or watching those people feel not at home in their home. I have that line “I see the high-fives between the bad guys” because not only are some really racist, horrific undertones now becoming overtones in our political climate, but the people who are representing those concepts and that way of looking at the world are celebrating loudly, and it’s horrific.

 
#85 "You're Losing Me" (From The Vault) (2023)



And I wouldn't marry me either
A pathological people pleaser
Who only wanted you to see her


So half a year after the physical release of this song (who the feck owns physical music in 2023?) she finally dropped it on streaming. Straight onto my playlist and straight onto this countdown.



 
#84 "Back To December" (2010)



This is quite the rarity in Taylor's discography. For once she admits she's the bad guy and takes all the blame.

"It addresses a first for me in that I've never apologized in song. The person I wrote this song about deserves this. This is about a person who was incredible to me, just perfect to me in a relationship, and I was really careless with him."

 
This is taking way too long. At this rate we won't get to #1 before summer. Pick up the pace!
 
#83 "the lakes" (2020)



"folklore" is a phenomenal album because it takes you on a poetic and timeless journey. For that reason there's one particular word that irks me every time I listen to this song. That word is the sole reason this song isn't higher on the list.

 
Clearly you’re struggling to come up with 100 good songs of hers. Should have gone for top 20 instead.

On a more serious note, what’s the word that demoted the song?
 
Clearly you’re struggling to come up with 100 good songs of hers. Should have gone for top 20 instead.

On a more serious note, what’s the word that demoted the song?

"with no one around to tweet it"

A lot of her music is timeless. You can associate it to whenever you want. That one word takes a timeless classic and turns it into a product of its time.