Tactics are not the real problem

[NicolaSacco]

I think there’s a little bit of bias at work here. A lot of players WEREN’T noticeably better in the first season, but they were afforded more leeway.

Look at Yoro, and how determined some are to label him world class. His mistakes get explained away and I think people will genuinely believe in 3 or 4 years time, that Yoro had a good first season. I think fans are less likely to allow for mistakes if it’s the 50th time instead of the first.

 

[Tallis]

I don’t think the players are as bad or as lazy as they are being made out to be. I don’t think they are top 4 quality but there is enough quality for us to be somewhere from 5-7.

The weakest link can cause the chain to break and we have some obvious shortcomings in the first 11. Even 2 good players in the January window may make a big difference. If we get a LWB and a #10 (or alternatively a more creative CM), the team can look very different.

 

[Baneofthegame]

How many players we've got who performed really well in their first 1-2 seasons and then they started deteriorating soon after? Some were old (ex Varane and Casemiro). However that can't be applied to the likes of Maguire, AWB, Martinez and Bruno. Even the likes of Antony who started fairly well had deteriorated and we're seeing a decline in performance with the likes of Mazraoui as well. On the flip side those who leave seem to improve. Jadon Sancho is doing fairly well with Chelsea, McTominay is working his socks off in Italy, Greenwood is killing it in the French league while Elanga and Alvaro are doing well with Forest and in Portugal. The same can be said about Fred whose a popular figure in Turkey

There's something wrong inside United that goes beyond the manager. It could be the coaching, the fitness or maybe the environment that doesn't properly motivate the players

What? Maz has one poor game and suddenly he’s terrible? Maybe it’s the fans.

At the end of the day you have mentioned:

Sancho - would say he’s doing ok, couldn’t be kept with the previous manager still here.

Mctominay - Sold for FFP reasons, wanted to be kept, got Ugarte from it, who’s been great.

Greenwood - No possibility of keeping him for obvious reasons

Elanga - Wasn’t playing, is doing ok.

Alvaro - Shouldn’t have been sold, but have a buyback.

Fred - It’s Fred.

6 players, 2 of which we couldn’t of kept anyway, 1 who had to be sold and 3 who are doing okay, you won’t see any of them getting the ballon dor.

We are paying for poor recruitment over the last 12 years and one window isn’t going to fix it.

 

[devilish]

What? Maz has one poor game and suddenly he’s terrible? Maybe it’s the fans.

At the end of the day you have mentioned:

Sancho - would say he’s doing ok, couldn’t be kept with the previous manager still here.

Mctominay - Sold for FFP reasons, wanted to be kept, got Ugarte from it, who’s been great.

Greenwood - No possibility of keeping him for obvious reasons

Elanga - Wasn’t playing, is doing ok.

Alvaro - Shouldn’t have been sold, but have a buyback.

Fred - It’s Fred.

6 players, 2 of which we couldn’t of kept anyway, 1 who had to be sold and 3 who are doing okay, you won’t see any of them getting the ballon dor.

We are paying for poor recruitment over the last 12 years and one window isn’t going to fix it.

Where did I called Mazraoui terrible? I said 'a decline in performance'

Sancho wasn't doing ok
McT is better at Napoli then he is with us
Greenwood is on fire
Elanga is doing very well
Alvaro wasn't getting anywhere here but he is suddenly doing very well in Portugal

But there's more to that. Maguire started very well and he declined, same as the likes of Bruno and Martinez. If you put age at a side (though 32 isn't exactly old) then one can add Eriksen and Casemiro to the mix as well. We used to be a school of excellence at United not just for youths but also for the rest. We bought excellent players such as Cole, Keane, Schmeichel, Ronaldo, Carrick, Evra and Vidic and in 1-2 years time they would be legends. That ain't the case anymore

 

[Baneofthegame]

Where did I called Mazraoui terrible? I said 'a decline in performance'

Sancho wasn't doing ok
McT is better at Napoli then he is with us
Greenwood is on fire
Elanga is doing very well
Alvaro wasn't getting anywhere here but he is suddenly doing very well in Portugal

But there's more to that. Maguire started very well and he declined, same as the likes of Bruno and Martinez. If you put age at a side (though 32 isn't exactly old) then one can add Eriksen and Casemiro to the mix as well. We used to be a school of excellence at United not just for youths but also for the rest. We bought excellent players such as Cole, Keane, Schmeichel, Ronaldo, Carrick, Evra and Vidic and in 1-2 years time they would be legends. That ain't the case anymore

I never said you said he was terrible, but two games in a season seems like over exaggerating when he’s more often than not been our best player.

Because like I’ve said it’s 6 players and it barely moves the needle imo, if you want to add in Maguire, he started well because we would play to his strengths which was to sit deep and counterattack, if we still played that way he would still look good.

Martinez I can’t explain except his injuries potentially but he’s completely regressed.

Eriksen and Casemiros legs have gone, same thing happened with Fabinho, difference is Liverpool got 40 million and shipped him out before it was highlighted even more.

 

[Beachryan]

I think it's attitude more than ability. The biggest thing I wanted from Amorim coming in was us winning 50/50s again. Being physical, running pushing and working hard. We almost never work harder than the opposition. That's across numerous managers.

There is a culture here of having made it. Even for younger, 'hungry' players. And whether it's the wages, the status or what, players simply lose some drive. And that's enough in modern football, when all players are pretty close ability-wise.

 

[devilish]

I never said you said he was terrible, but two games in a season seems like over exaggerating when he’s more often than not been our best player.

Because like I’ve said it’s 6 players and it barely moves the needle imo, if you want to add in Maguire, he started well because we would play to his strengths which was to sit deep and counterattack, if we still played that way he would still look good.

Martinez I can’t explain except his injuries potentially but he’s completely regressed.

Eriksen and Casemiros legs have gone, same thing happened with Fabinho, difference is Liverpool got 40 million and shipped him out before it was highlighted even more.

What? Maz has one poor game and suddenly he’s terrible?

There's too many players that had regressed and barely no one who had improved. I think that's United's main issue. We can't outbuy that problem up.

 

[NoLogo]

I believe that 2 decades of the Glazers (who saw United as an ATM machine) saw a collapse of everything football related. Thus we're shit in terms of scouting which in turn leads us bringing the wrong type of players hence we need to 'tweak' them. That combined with a substandard fitness regime lead to more injuries and a decline in performance. Add to that different managers all with contrasting tactical philosophies and we've got a perfect mess.

There was a time when players who didn't see United as their home (ex Ronaldo, Pique and co) would still be excited in joining United because they knew that we would refine them into world class players. That's not the case anymore. We're becoming a graveyard for manager's and player's careers

Pretty much this. I think it already started in the later SAF years but really accelerated after he left that we didn't improve first team players anymore over the last decade either stagnated or completely regressed despite being obviously talented players and this was true for pretty much every manager.

In essence it is time Ineos turns every stone over and takes a good look if all our departments are still up to the level they should be at an elite club.

 

[Lentwood]

I believe the biggest problem we have had post-SAF is believing that we need to play like a top team, despite not being a top team.

When we simplify the football and bunker down (Jose 2nd season, OGS 2nd season, EtH first season), we largely do OK. As soon as I start hearing talk of "dominating games" and possession football, I sense a return to chaos and managers getting the sack

 

[Ralph1386]

It’s culture. It’s rotten from top to bottom.
I think the culmination is that our players play with fear. Tactics or coaching can’t solve it. The club is toxic and like poison will at some point infect every new player and coach.
When you allow standards slide, it’s very very difficult to get them back.

Agree

 

[Ralph1386]

We have changed players in the last 10 years, a new manager came in and brought 10 or more players, then the next and the circle continued, yet we are obviously in a much worse position now than we were with LVG, Mourinho or Ole.

It's clear that we are a graveyard of player talent, whoever we bring we managed to turn them into nothing players.

This. The problem is not about formation or tactics or even the manager. It’s been rotten from the top for over a decade.

 

[kerrygold]

The problem is that we have a serious lack of quality players. Most if them are absolutely not up yo the standard.

This!! And it should be repeated on a daily basis. He’s not making lemonade out of these lemons

 

[Irwin99]

I believe the biggest problem we have had post-SAF is believing that we need to play like a top team, despite not being a top team.

When we simplify the football and bunker down (Jose 2nd season, OGS 2nd season, EtH first season), we largely do OK. As soon as I start hearing talk of "dominating games" and possession football, I sense a return to chaos and managers getting the sack

Taking the next step is always the issue, sadly. The way we played in those second place finishes was never going to win titles.

 

[honirelandboy]

It's our transfer policies and buying players not good enough or consistent enough. Take our midfield for example. We've spent 50 on Mount, 70 on Casemeiro, 50 on Ugarte. Total 170. On players finishing their career or have a bad injury record.
If we look at Liverpool they got McAllister 55 Gravebach 35 and Szoboszai 60 and players are of the right age. Total 140
Chelsea signed Caicedo and Enzo for 200 million. Again players of right age and not injury prone.
Arsenal signed Rice 100 , Odergard 30, Partey 45

Let's not get started on 80 million for Anthony, 73 million for sancho and 64 for Hojlund and what we should of buying. Until we fix our transfer dealings club is never going to get better.

A lot managers have mentioned about players they wanted which the Glazers refused to buy
.

 

[Himannv]

I don't think the tactics are to blame, but it is also part of the story. We keep signing players that are square pegs in round holes and this gets worse when tactics change with new managers coming in.

This goes back to our signings right after Sir Alex left (and a couple before he left as well). Mata was signed as an AM when we were still playing 4-4-2 for most part. Fellaini was a combative AM type but he was signed to play as a DM. Di Maria was a wide midfielder and we didn't play him there much. Pogba was signed to play in a double pivot but he was more of an offensive midfielder in a midfield 3. Sancho was better suited to a counter attacking system with quick passing and interplay but we played him in a slow buildup possession system with some other weird mixes thrown in. Rashford and Bruno are counter attacking players and play as LWF and second striker but we're playing them in a system where they have to play other roles and have opposition players behind the ball when they get on it. Ugarte was signed to play in a system crying out for a dedicated DM and he is a box-to-box ball winner. Same story with lots of other signings. We needed an overlapping RB who could offer width and consistent threat and we signed a defensive one like AWB.

Right now we are left with a mishmash of different players who are trying to fit into systems they are clearly not suited to and we are failing miserably as a result. We badly need to find the right manager, recruit the right type of players, have patience for a few seasons, and make sure that if we change the manager, the same players will fit under the new man's philosophy. You'd think the changes at board level would help with this, but there's already one man out the door there so that area remains to be seen as well. Lots of work to do.

 

[Jezpeza]

I don't think the tactics are to blame, but it is also part of the story. We keep signing players that are square pegs in round holes and this gets worse when tactics change with new managers coming in.

This goes back to our signings right after Sir Alex left (and a couple before he left as well). Mata was signed as an AM when we were still playing 4-4-2 for most part. Fellaini was a combative AM type but he was signed to play as a DM. Di Maria was a wide midfielder and we didn't play him there much. Pogba was signed to play in a double pivot but he was more of an offensive midfielder in a midfield 3. Sancho was better suited to a counter attacking system with quick passing and interplay but we played him in a slow buildup possession system with some other weird mixes thrown in. Rashford and Bruno are counter attacking players and play as LWF and second striker but we're playing them in a system where they have to play other roles and have opposition players behind the ball when they get on it. Ugarte was signed to play in a system crying out for a dedicated DM and he is a box-to-box ball winner. Same story with lots of other signings. We needed an overlapping RB who could offer width and consistent threat and we signed a defensive one like AWB.

Right now we are left with a mishmash of different players who are trying to fit into systems they are clearly not suited to and we are failing miserably as a result. We badly need to find the right manager, recruit the right type of players, have patience for a few seasons, and make sure that if we change the manager, the same players will fit under the new man's philosophy. You'd think the changes at board level would help with this, but there's already one man out the door there so that area remains to be seen as well. Lots of work to do.

I dont know what the squad was built for. Its like someone said ‘you know what, I’m going to sign a squad full of players that lack top fitness, pace and athleticism and then also make sure none of them have any technical ability so we cant even hold on to the ball to counteract opponents running all over us’. Just the worst of every world

 

[Stig]

The pressure gets to them. They look around for the support system and that great intangible known as team spirit and it isn't there.

The great cultural story of the SAF United was that sense that United was both a fortress and a family. It was us against the world - leaders thrived in it, but players who weren't leaders were insulated by it.

It wasn't overnight though, it took years to build that atmosphere - SAF had to find leaders who he could work with, he had to find people like Keane and Cantona who could do their own jobs but also lead the new players breaking through. He also encouraged the same thing in their environment - great provision technically but also an expectation of privacy and comfort. SAF commented that the training ground should be a happy place - the club built the team a nest.

Afterwards we had Disneyland as a role model for the marketing and managers who looked so lost under the conflicting pressures of working for United that they had no energy to defend their players. Now combine that with the loss of key players and old leaders? Let your medical and training facilities and techniques fall behind your rivals? Not a healthy combination for family building.

Mourinho and Solsjkaer both pulled off the trick of bringing that feeling back for a short time but couldn't sustain it. I don't think the others even tried to do it - they acted like United was just another club and then drowned.

Do I think we make players worse? Yes - though some of them simply aren't good enough or flexible enough for the jobs we hire them to do. Players like Casemiro and Varane - there's a reason Real Madrid let them go and those same reasons (age and injuries) are why they were erratic rather than poor for us. But no player plays on their own and even players who can become leaders or even simply contribute well can lose their way in a dysfunctional team.

Some players though would have done/would do a lot better if the pressure on them as individuals was less and the team and the training ground were "happy places" to be. It's part of why when I read some of the desire for what amounts to revenge or punishment for players on here I'm lost.

I'm hopeful that Amorim can bring some of that us against the world spirit back. United is a tough place to be.

You make a good point about team spirit, as much as Roy Keane is a knob of a person, he's the person that you want on your team. Him in the tunnel getting into Viera to defend Gary Neville. Can you see any player doing that today ? The same player that he would go and scream at if he misplaced a cross. It was high intensity and demanding but ultimately they were in it together.

If one of our players got a heavy foul you knew that Butt or Scholes would absolutely clatter the offender and get a yellow the very next chance that they got.

I'm sure we don't have that sort of team spirit now. They try in the last 15 minutes if we are losing and celebrate like they mean it if we score and win, but maybe a lot of it is just going through the motions.

 

[Stig]

I don’t think the players are as bad or as lazy as they are being made out to be. I don’t think they are top 4 quality but there is enough quality for us to be somewhere from 5-7.

The weakest link can cause the chain to break and we have some obvious shortcomings in the first 11. Even 2 good players in the January window may make a big difference. If we get a LWB and a #10 (or alternatively a more creative CM), the team can look very different.

Some yanks have written a book on SOCCER statistics and I think they now try and do consulting work. I heard a radio interview with them and they say that most goals in football come from mistakes, not brilliance - so that best thing you can do is replace the people who are making the most mistakes. This will give you much more added value than buying the greatest, left winger in the world, or central midfielder in the world if the current ones aren't error prone. If your goalkeeper and right midfielder are error prone replacing them with anybody who is more competent, not necessarily world class, is the most effective way to improve your team. They say, continually replace your weakest links before you buy a super star.

One that basis I would change our current goalkeeper and probably Bruno because although he is second in assists to KDB he make a lot lot more mistakes than KDB that negate all the good he does.

Thoughts ?

 

[Stig]

This!! And it should be repeated on a daily basis. He’s not making lemonade out of these lemons

Lots of people would consider Wes Brown, Phil Neville, Gary Neville, Nicky Butt, Darren Fletcher, Jonny Evans to be nothing more than average - but they won an awful lot. You don't need 11 world class players to be a great team.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Lots of people would consider Wes Brown, Phil Neville, Gary Neville, Nicky Butt, Darren Fletcher, Jonny Evans to be nothing more than average - but they won an awful lot. You don't need 11 world class players to be a great team.

You can’t compare something that was good 20 years ago to now. Even an avg PL side is very good these days.

 

[Cela shomana]

Some yanks have written a book on SOCCER statistics and I think they now try and do consulting work. I heard a radio interview with them and they say that most goals in football come from mistakes, not brilliance - so that best thing you can do is replace the people who are making the most mistakes. This will give you much more added value than buying the greatest, left winger in the world, or central midfielder in the world if the current ones aren't error prone. If your goalkeeper and right midfielder are error prone replacing them with anybody who is more competent, not necessarily world class, is the most effective way to improve your team. They say, continually replace your weakest links before you buy a super star.

One that basis I would change our current goalkeeper and probably Bruno because although he is second in assists to KDB he make a lot lot more mistakes than KDB that negate all the good he does.

Thoughts ?

I totally agree with the findings, the problem is we have many of such players, include Dalot, Casimero and Maguire in the list. No matter how good these players play, they have errors in them. We lost the last two games due to our mistakes. The performance were not bad

 

[Stig]

You can’t compare something that was good 20 years ago to now. Even an avg PL side is very good these days.

Ok.

Who in the current Liverpool side are absolutely outstanding apart from Salah , TAA and Van Dyke ?

 

[Pronewbie]

It's a double whammy.

 

[Himannv]

I dont know what the squad was built for. Its like someone said ‘you know what, I’m going to sign a squad full of players that lack top fitness, pace and athleticism and then also make sure none of them have any technical ability so we cant even hold on to the ball to counteract opponents running all over us’. Just the worst of every world

Yeah, it's a weird bunch. The Mourinho, Ole lot are kind of counter attacking only, so they're good at operating under less pressure from opponents and running in to space against the run of play. That's not how we have been playing for a good while now and their performances have reflected that. The ETH lot are like a weird hybrid of being either decent on the ball, decent at pressing, or equally mediocre at both. It's like a mishmash of rubbish and now that there is a different style of play, some are completely like fish out of water.

Position is also a problem. You can't be a winger in a system that doesn't require one or a balanced fullback in a system that needs a more attack oriented wingback. The ones who are playing alright are the ones who perfectly fit into the position they are supposed to play like Ugarte or adaptable enough to be successful at different things like Amad. The rest are struggling to find their feet and are doing things that they are not used to.

 

[pocco]

I think the issue is a culmination of a lot of things. Lack of talent vs expectations meaning many players simply can’t live up to what we need, they may do it one game but they can’t do it consistently. This may be tied into the next issue.

Fragile mentality. We been in so many low points the last few years that I think the players now collectively shit the bed at a setback through fear of going into one of those dark places once again. Like a self fulfilling prophecy.

And I think one thing that doesn’t get mentioned a lot but is a factor, which probably envelopes the two above points, is the pressure of playing for United. Look at our great sides and they were packed with players that genuinely thrived under the pressure. It made them great, took them to new levels, and the pressure actually brought them consistency. They knew they had to be on it every week and they were. But even during those times, we’d sign a player and sometimes they just couldn’t bring their previous levels due to the pressure.

We used to talk about it all the time with them player’s, but this doesn’t get mentioned anymore. I think some of these players struggle with this. I think some of these players maybe do have the talent but can’t operate on the bigger stage. Certainly not consistently. And during the tough times when there’s criticism etc, they don’t have the personality of a Ronaldo, Rooney or Beckham where they want to shut the media up through their performances. They just wilt and often never fully recover. Personality is the big word here, our players just lack it badly. Fergie used to be so thorough on this aspect when recruiting, he must be really wondering what’s going on with this these days.

 

[devilish]

I believe the biggest problem we have had post-SAF is believing that we need to play like a top team, despite not being a top team.

When we simplify the football and bunker down (Jose 2nd season, OGS 2nd season, EtH first season), we largely do OK. As soon as I start hearing talk of "dominating games" and possession football, I sense a return to chaos and managers getting the sack

Saf fount the same problem when he became united manager. We had a squad which was capable of winning the odd cup and given Liverpool a bruises noise but would falter if asked more

He didn't settle for that. There was a huge player's turnover, United's performance plummeted, he didn't get it right first time round, money was invested in more and we then built a dynasty

 

[Lentwood]

Taking the next step is always the issue, sadly. The way we played in those second place finishes was never going to win titles.

And that's fine...and I tend to agree...but had we maintained steady progress each season and bought sensibly, we'd eventually have been at a level where we could aim to dominate games.

At the moment, we get suckered in every game. I have seen it loads of times, even down in amateur/semi pro football. A side who are organised and sit deep to play on the counter will always beat a talented but poorly organised side.

 

[Lentwood]

Saf fount the same problem when he became united manager. We had a squad which was capable of winning the odd cup and given Liverpool a bruises noise but would falter if asked more

He didn't settle for that. There was a huge player's turnover, United's performance plummeted, he didn't get it right first time round, money was invested in more and we then built a dynasty

I am not commenting on whether it's right or wrong to be more ambitious, but what I would say is, we have gone about taking the "next step" in a horrible, lazy way each time by trying to buy one or two superstars. Had we been more savvy and bought better, we'd eventually have reached a point whereby we could start to change things bit by bit to really challenge for titles.

 

[devilish]

I am not commenting on whether it's right or wrong to be more ambitious, but what I would say is, we have gone about taking the "next step" in a horrible, lazy way each time by trying to buy one or two superstars. Had we been more savvy and bought better, we'd eventually have reached a point whereby we could start to change things bit by bit to really challenge for titles.

I remember when Woodward came out during an AGM and he said that the club can only buy 4 signings a year. That's the moment I knew that we were screwed. Players are human beings. If they aren't afraid of losing their job then they tend to get complacent. So all united players had to do was to be far away from the bottom 4 spot. That's quite an easy feat considering injuries, players growing old and players wanting out etc

We need to go in there and burn the whole house down IE a huge turnover that would get rid of the deadwood and would terrify the few survivors. That will require loads of ££££ and character. Ineos are showing ample of the latter with the likes of Rashy and Casemiro being pushed out. Let's hope that they have the former as well

 

[kafta]

Its a bunch of stuff, but i always thought the most glaring reason we've been crap is the lack of a set standard that the players are held to, and this might be because the owners didn't set that culture. I was hoping that between INEOS and Amorim, this would be addressed. But as time passes, i am agreeing more with what Keano says, self respecting professionals set a standard for themselves. So buying players with the correct character for man united has to become a thing again.

 

[AneRu]

I think we over look how important it is for a player to be playing in the correct tactical style. For example, Bruno's best form for United and Sporting is when he has freedom, in and around the no 10 role. Take him out of there and he doesn't have the quality to be effective. If Rashford is not playing on the left with freedom to not track and loads of space he becomes ineffective. No surprise both players best form came in a 4 2 3 1 where the team was much more defensively solid to allow for that. Alternatively, Sancho flourishes with a fluid interplaying style, the opposite of what United played with their 4 2 3 1. The result is he doesn't look anywhere close to the player he was at Dortmund. We see this all the time, certain players need certain formations/playing styles to get the best out of them. Additionally that also means managers with certain play styles need certain profile of players. I think this is why you see a player fail at 1 club then succeed at another, and same with managers. This becomes even more important the tougher the league is. Its why for example, I don't think Ten Hag was a bad manager, far from it (however I do think he was bad at recruiting the right profile of player).

The reality is a large section of our squad are not bad players. As much as I'd have moved Maguire on, if we had kept Jose I'd see him doing well, as I think AWB would have done due to the more defensive style. What we are seeing right now at United is the extreme of a squad of players that are not suited to Amorim's style. Maybe in time with coaching they will become suited but that is not a guarantee. Add to that the point that the squad must be low in confidence (there is no way they can't be after last season and the start to this) then things get amplified.

I personally do think the correct course of action is a reset. That being to pick a philosophy/style and stick to it for a period of time. If that's Amorim so be it. However, what has hamstrung the club is the need for success within 2/3 years and the need to have stars to increase the commercial side. That doesn't work when ideally you need to sell Bruno and Rashford your biggest stars (my opiniom they have to be moved on). It also doesn't work when you need success to sign players, keep top players etc. It's a tough position the club finds itself it, a lot of pressure on Amorim.

I think the difficulty with United is that we have been trying to repair a blown off roof in the middle of a storm, we have allowed ourselves to respond to pressure from within and from outside. We can't match the Fergie era, we have to be more methodical in our building and do away with short-termism to really grow.

If we want to succeed the ownership need to completely ignore the media, ignore us the fans because we tend to fall for kneejerk reactions and try to build with consistency focusing of the required inherent characteristics of players instead of names. Once we have that technically and athletically assured base then we look for the superstars to take us a step further.

We need to get rid of all the big earners because they aren't earning the high wages and they are a deterrent to a complete transformation because they are technically and physically flawed. Bruno, Shaw, Mount, Rashford, Casemiro, Licha, Maguire and even De Ligt all have to go within the next three windows. The likes of Hoijlund and Zirkzee aren't even worth talking about but if their wages aren't disruptive then they can stay as impact players until they grow.

We should also stop recruiting from big clubs, utilise our scouting more and focus on players from smaller clubs or smaller leagues who are still hungry and can be moulded. The coach is solid and I don't think that if we support him properly and if he fails we will be left holding a bag full of shit like we did with ETH.

Another thing is we might have to fall foul of PSR for a season, especially if we don't make European football just to get back on track.

 

[greater wall]

It's just the relentless media scrutiny that is not at other clubs. Players confidence just gets shot after the negative social media and media shoot them down for any mistakes. It's a particularly United thing.

 

[Hammondo]

What? Maz has one poor game and suddenly he’s terrible? Maybe it’s the fans.

At the end of the day you have mentioned:

Sancho - would say he’s doing ok, couldn’t be kept with the previous manager still here.

Mctominay - Sold for FFP reasons, wanted to be kept, got Ugarte from it, who’s been great.

Greenwood - No possibility of keeping him for obvious reasons

Elanga - Wasn’t playing, is doing ok.

Alvaro - Shouldn’t have been sold, but have a buyback.

Fred - It’s Fred.

6 players, 2 of which we couldn’t of kept anyway, 1 who had to be sold and 3 who are doing okay, you won’t see any of them getting the ballon dor.

We are paying for poor recruitment over the last 12 years and one window isn’t going to fix it.

Exactly, every window now in theory should be a step in the right direction.

 

[90 + 5min]

How many players we've got who performed really well in their first 1-2 seasons and then they started deteriorating soon after? Some were old (ex Varane and Casemiro). However that can't be applied to the likes of Maguire, AWB, Martinez and Bruno. Even the likes of Antony who started fairly well had deteriorated and we're seeing a decline in performance with the likes of Mazraoui as well. On the flip side those who leave seem to improve. Jadon Sancho is doing fairly well with Chelsea, McTominay is working his socks off in Italy, Greenwood is killing it in the French league while Elanga and Alvaro are doing well with Forest and in Portugal. The same can be said about Fred whose a popular figure in Turkey

There's something wrong inside United that goes beyond the manager. It could be the coaching, the fitness or maybe the environment that doesn't properly motivate the players

I have been saying for years and years. It is not about manager. Every manager except Moyes have been thrown under bus by lazy, overpayed players or those higher up. So people can shout about managers all they want but they are not the problem. I look forward to ”sack Amorim” threads because fans need someone to blame.

 

[Marwood]

I don’t think the players are as bad or as lazy as they are being made out to be. I don’t think they are top 4 quality but there is enough quality for us to be somewhere from 5-7.

The weakest link can cause the chain to break and we have some obvious shortcomings in the first 11. Even 2 good players in the January window may make a big difference. If we get a LWB and a #10 (or alternatively a more creative CM), the team can look very different.

Agree with this.

It isn't tactics, it isn't laziness.

We just don't score enough goals and that's because we've put that burden on players who are too young or players past their best. We've been doing it for years now.

Sort that(probably requires three players) and we'd look a very different team.

 

[NZT-One]

Where did I called Mazraoui terrible? I said 'a decline in performance'

Sancho wasn't doing ok
McT is better at Napoli then he is with us
Greenwood is on fire
Elanga is doing very well
Alvaro wasn't getting anywhere here but he is suddenly doing very well in Portugal

But there's more to that. Maguire started very well and he declined, same as the likes of Bruno and Martinez. If you put age at a side (though 32 isn't exactly old) then one can add Eriksen and Casemiro to the mix as well. We used to be a school of excellence at United not just for youths but also for the rest. We bought excellent players such as Cole, Keane, Schmeichel, Ronaldo, Carrick, Evra and Vidic and in 1-2 years time they would be legends. That ain't the case anymore

I think, there are mainly two factors going into that
a) "we" as fans are exaggerating the performances of new recruits. Which makes them look better than they are which, as soon as they drop in performances, it looks like a massive drop.
b) Other teams have principles in place, that help players to flourish. Do you have a tricky winger who is able to turn his Fullback 7 out of 10 times? Great, get the team to help with creating situation where this winger is isolated against his fullback. And so on. This aspect of the game is completely lost with us. It is as if we run on on Win95 while the rest of the league is switching from Win10 to Win11. Just look at some of the transfer talk in here on multiple occasions, "we just need two good signings then we will compete again". It was always bullshit because the underlying numbers always showed that we were underperforming compared to rivals.

I believe the biggest problem we have had post-SAF is believing that we need to play like a top team, despite not being a top team.

Definitely true. But it isn't just the club who seemingly didn't understand the underlying principles and just continued to behave in a certain way even though the conditions were/are way different than earlier.

When we simplify the football and bunker down (Jose 2nd season, OGS 2nd season, EtH first season), we largely do OK. As soon as I start hearing talk of "dominating games" and possession football, I sense a return to chaos and managers getting the sack

Makes sense and if we would do that, I guess, we would stabilize results as you mentioned. The thing is, the top teams evolved from there. We have to keep in mind, that top teams aren't just able to play dominant possession football. Think back at that great Bayern side that played the CL final against Dortmund. They were fantastic on the ball but if needed, they were absolutely deadly on the counter. It isn't an either or - it is an "now that thats established, lets continue".

I don't think the tactics are to blame, but it is also part of the story. We keep signing players that are square pegs in round holes and this gets worse when tactics change with new managers coming in.

This goes back to our signings right after Sir Alex left (and a couple before he left as well). Mata was signed as an AM when we were still playing 4-4-2 for most part. Fellaini was a combative AM type but he was signed to play as a DM. Di Maria was a wide midfielder and we didn't play him there much. Pogba was signed to play in a double pivot but he was more of an offensive midfielder in a midfield 3. Sancho was better suited to a counter attacking system with quick passing and interplay but we played him in a slow buildup possession system with some other weird mixes thrown in. Rashford and Bruno are counter attacking players and play as LWF and second striker but we're playing them in a system where they have to play other roles and have opposition players behind the ball when they get on it. Ugarte was signed to play in a system crying out for a dedicated DM and he is a box-to-box ball winner. Same story with lots of other signings. We needed an overlapping RB who could offer width and consistent threat and we signed a defensive one like AWB.

Right now we are left with a mishmash of different players who are trying to fit into systems they are clearly not suited to and we are failing miserably as a result. We badly need to find the right manager, recruit the right type of players, have patience for a few seasons, and make sure that if we change the manager, the same players will fit under the new man's philosophy. You'd think the changes at board level would help with this, but there's already one man out the door there so that area remains to be seen as well. Lots of work to do.

Feels like a few of those description don't really fit. I mean, when did we play a slow possession system that could have hampered Sancho? That simply didn't happen. We played him in the hope that he would be a tricky winger to go one on one with fullbacks in tight spaces which never was his game.

The overall premise of the post makes sense of course.

 

[Maticmaker]

One of LvG's favourite sayings was " the opposition cannot score whilst you have the ball", his way of trying to implement this belief did not lead to exciting football, but it did usually lead to fewer mistakes by those players who were prone to such things.

Players who are two-footed, who can move quickly with the ball as well as without it, who can retain their body shape/balance whilst carrying the ball at speed (Giggsy was phenomenal at this), who can put 'a foot in' to retain or retrieve the ball without fouling, who can control the ball or make a pass with their head up, who can ride tackles, or use their body strength to shield the ball (Eric the Great etc.), who can see the next move split-seconds before anyone else (Rooney) ..........will tend to make less mistakes. However you can probably count on one hand the number of players we currently have who might fit into this category.

Managers, at least to begin with, have to use ''the hand they are dealt" in such matters, before they can implement the plans/tactics they want to use; however there is a risk involved that in accommodating players in a new system, it can deflect from other players who are already 'round-pegs in round holes', e.g. Martinez has shown himself to be an excellent left-sided CB in a back four, he looks far less effective on the left side in a back three, without the assurance of a regular left back.

These sort of 'trade-offs' Ruben will no doubt have to carry on with, injuries alone may force this position; however improved overall ability in retaining the ball will only prove effective in avoiding defeat, it will not guarantee improvement in winning games, unless a positive use of possession is achieved in scoring rates.
We had a lot of possession in the first half against Wolves, but rarely troubled their keeper this has to change, ..........at least to avoid our slide down the table!

 

[Himannv]

Feels like a few of those description don't really fit. I mean, when did we play a slow possession system that could have hampered Sancho? That simply didn't happen. We played him in the hope that he would be a tricky winger to go one on one with fullbacks in tight spaces which never was his game.

The overall premise of the post makes sense of course.

Fair enough. I should have said transition football paired with possession play, but I find it hard to name ETH's style generally because he's a mishmash of everything and doing nothing right as a result.

 

[kerrygold]

Lots of people would consider Wes Brown, Phil Neville, Gary Neville, Nicky Butt, Darren Fletcher, Jonny Evans to be nothing more than average - but they won an awful lot. You don't need 11 world class players to be a great team.

Those listed were proper footballers who knew how to play. We don’t have that. We have guys that don’t run, can’t string 2 passes together, and have no awareness.

 

[SparcMac]

Lots of people would consider Wes Brown, Phil Neville, Gary Neville, Nicky Butt, Darren Fletcher, Jonny Evans to be nothing more than average - but they won an awful lot. You don't need 11 world class players to be a great team.

All of them were mentality monsters, you couldn't bully them in or off the pitch. Not what can be said a lot of current lot.