Tactics are not the real problem

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
63,228
How many players we've got who performed really well in their first 1-2 seasons and then they started deteriorating soon after? Some were old (ex Varane and Casemiro). However that can't be applied to the likes of Maguire, AWB, Martinez and Bruno. Even the likes of Antony who started fairly well had deteriorated and we're seeing a decline in performance with the likes of Mazraoui as well. On the flip side those who leave seem to improve. Jadon Sancho is doing fairly well with Chelsea, McTominay is working his socks off in Italy, Greenwood is killing it in the French league while Elanga and Alvaro are doing well with Forest and in Portugal. The same can be said about Fred whose a popular figure in Turkey

There's something wrong inside United that goes beyond the manager. It could be the coaching, the fitness or maybe the environment that doesn't properly motivate the players
 
It's simple - we just need to replace the whole squad every 6 months and we'll never be in a rut.

But yeah, it's been mentioned that the facilities have fallen behind and we've had players like Lukaku and Alexis admit that such things snapped their fragile wills. So that's likely one of the things holding us back as you say.

I don't think that was why the listed players we've sold have gone onto do better though. McTominay had his best season in a United shirt before we sold him, Greenwood's departure had nothing to do with anyone but himself, while Elanga and Alvaro were sold young, purely to turn a quick (pure) profit. Fair point on players who come in and get worse though.
 
It’s culture. It’s rotten from top to bottom.
I think the culmination is that our players play with fear. Tactics or coaching can’t solve it. The club is toxic and like poison will at some point infect every new player and coach.
When you allow standards slide, it’s very very difficult to get them back.
 
Kostov said:
The problem is that we have a serious lack of quality players. Most if them are absolutely not up yo the standard.
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Quality is an issue but I think this is quite pressing and had been here for a long time. Players start well with us and then deteriorate very quickly.
 
devilish said:
How many players we've got who performed really well in their first 1-2 seasons and then they started deteriorating soon after? Some were old (ex Varane and Casemiro). However that can't be applied to the likes of Maguire, AWB, Martinez and Bruno. Even the likes of Antony who started fairly well had deteriorated and we're seeing a decline in performance with the likes of Mazraoui as well. On the flip side those who leave seem to improve. Jadon Sancho is doing fairly well with Chelsea, McTominay is working his socks off in Italy, Greenwood is killing it in the French league while Elanga and Alvaro are doing well with Forest and in Portugal. The same can be said about Fred whose a popular figure in Turkey

There's something wrong inside United that goes beyond the manager. It could be the coaching, the fitness or maybe the environment that doesn't properly motivate the players
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I think we over look how important it is for a player to be playing in the correct tactical style. For example, Bruno's best form for United and Sporting is when he has freedom, in and around the no 10 role. Take him out of there and he doesn't have the quality to be effective. If Rashford is not playing on the left with freedom to not track and loads of space he becomes ineffective. No surprise both players best form came in a 4 2 3 1 where the team was much more defensively solid to allow for that. Alternatively, Sancho flourishes with a fluid interplaying style, the opposite of what United played with their 4 2 3 1. The result is he doesn't look anywhere close to the player he was at Dortmund. We see this all the time, certain players need certain formations/playing styles to get the best out of them. Additionally that also means managers with certain play styles need certain profile of players. I think this is why you see a player fail at 1 club then succeed at another, and same with managers. This becomes even more important the tougher the league is. Its why for example, I don't think Ten Hag was a bad manager, far from it (however I do think he was bad at recruiting the right profile of player).

The reality is a large section of our squad are not bad players. As much as I'd have moved Maguire on, if we had kept Jose I'd see him doing well, as I think AWB would have done due to the more defensive style. What we are seeing right now at United is the extreme of a squad of players that are not suited to Amorim's style. Maybe in time with coaching they will become suited but that is not a guarantee. Add to that the point that the squad must be low in confidence (there is no way they can't be after last season and the start to this) then things get amplified.

I personally do think the correct course of action is a reset. That being to pick a philosophy/style and stick to it for a period of time. If that's Amorim so be it. However, what has hamstrung the club is the need for success within 2/3 years and the need to have stars to increase the commercial side. That doesn't work when ideally you need to sell Bruno and Rashford your biggest stars (my opiniom they have to be moved on). It also doesn't work when you need success to sign players, keep top players etc. It's a tough position the club finds itself it, a lot of pressure on Amorim.
 
flameinthesun said:
I think we over look how important it is for a player to be playing in the correct tactical style. For example, Bruno's best form for United and Sporting is when he has freedom, in and around the no 10 role. Take him out of there and he doesn't have the quality to be effective. If Rashford is not playing on the left with freedom to not track and loads of space he becomes ineffective. No surprise both players best form came in a 4 2 3 1 where the team was much more defensively solid to allow for that. Alternatively, Sancho flourishes with a fluid interplaying style, the opposite of what United played with their 4 2 3 1. The result is he doesn't look anywhere close to the player he was at Dortmund. We see this all the time, certain players need certain formations/playing styles to get the best out of them. Additionally that also means managers with certain play styles need certain profile of players. I think this is why you see a player fail at 1 club then succeed at another, and same with managers. This becomes even more important the tougher the league is. Its why for example, I don't think Ten Hag was a bad manager, far from it (however I do think he was bad at recruiting the right profile of player).

The reality is a large section of our squad are not bad players. As much as I'd have moved Maguire on, if we had kept Jose I'd see him doing well, as I think AWB would have done due to the more defensive style. What we are seeing right now at United is the extreme of a squad of players that are not suited to Amorim's style. Maybe in time with coaching they will become suited but that is not a guarantee. Add to that the point that the squad must be low in confidence (there is no way they can't be after last season and the start to this) then things get amplified.

I personally do think the correct course of action is a reset. That being to pick a philosophy/style and stick to it for a period of time. If that's Amorim so be it. However, what has hamstrung the club is the need for success within 2/3 years and the need to have stars to increase the commercial side. That doesn't work when ideally you need to sell Bruno and Rashford your biggest stars (my opiniom they have to be moved on). It also doesn't work when you need success to sign players, keep top players etc. It's a tough position the club finds itself it, a lot of pressure on Amorim.
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I agree that playing players according to their strength does help and when you bring a manager whose (once again btw) has a complete different system to what we previously had then you have to back him with loads of £££££ and time. That's the reason why Amorim wasn't wanted by either Liverpool or City.

However this is different though. Martinez and Antony declined under ETH. Rashford did well under ETH and then declined as well. Bruno saved Ole but declined as time went by. Players actually decline at the club. That's neither normal nor sustainable
 
It could be the Manchester air.
It could be that the players are not good enough and we have been duped.
Imagine if you are at work with a group of guys and they are doing the same role as you and you find out they are on a wage that triples or maybe quadruples your own and they either consistently make mistakes or are deemed not even good enough to work alongside you.....I would find that really deflating and it just maybe affect my commitment to the cause.
 
devilish said:
Quality is an issue but I think this is quite pressing and had been here for a long time. Players start well with us and then deteriorate very quickly.
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Not really I disagree. We persist with most of the player too long eventually they have some good spells.

Onana was never worth the fee we paid. Maguire was never worth the fee we paid. Time and time again has demonstrated that he is not up to the standard if we are to fight for mayor trophies. Martinez the same despite being a favorite. Dalot is absolute epitome of good and too many times wank. Bruno has sadly also crept into this category.
 
It just takes time to change the confidence, the tactics, the culture etc. the players need changing and improving, not everyone but a few key positions for sure would go a hell of a long way
 
Pressure, culture and lack of talent. Expectation at United is ridiculous and the players can’t cope with it. That requires mental strength which a lot of these players are struggling with.

I don’t see a great squad of players either. 2 strikers that can’t score. Wingers that can’t cross. CMs and CBs that don’t have the pace or energy for the Premier League. The squad that has been built is terrible. A bunch of blokes down the pub could have created a better squad.
 
Kostov said:
Not really I disagree. We persist with most of the player too long eventually they have some good spells.

Onana was never worth the fee we paid. Maguire was never worth the fee we paid. Time and time again has demonstrated that he is not up to the standard if we are to fight for mayor trophies. Martinez the same despite being a favorite. Dalot is absolute epitome of good and too many times wank. Bruno has sadly also crept into this category.
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I am not putting fees into the question here. Its evident that we overpaid for most players post SAF. My point is on performances. Most players start well in their first season and then decline soon afterwards. That's uncharacteristic with United and to most well run clubs. Anyone old enough to remember the likes of Vidic, Evra, Cole, Ronaldo (that's a bit unfair cause he was young back at the day), Keane, Carrick and co know that we had a reputation of actually turning good players into world class. The same with kids. For example I absolutely hated Gaz early days. He wasn't particularly good going forward and he was rash around the box which lead to penalties and fouls in danger areas. Push forward 5 years and he was the best RB in the EPL.

We also had a say back then that once you leave United the only way is down. That's not the case anymore.
 
devilish said:
I am not putting fees into the question here. Its evident that we overpaid for most players post SAF. My point is on performances. Most players start well in their first season and then decline soon afterwards. That's uncharacteristic with United and to most well run clubs. Anyone old enough to remember the likes of Vidic, Evra, Cole, Ronaldo (that's a bit unfair cause he was young back at the day), Keane, Carrick and co know that we had a reputation of actually turning good players into world class. The same with kids. For example I absolutely hated Gaz early days. He wasn't particularly good going forward and he was rash around the box which lead to penalties and fouls in danger areas. Push forward 5 years and he was the best RB in the EPL.

We also had a say back then that once you leave United the only way is down. That's not the case anymore.
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We also had a winning culture at the club and new signings were coming into a dressing room that did not take shit and players had to step up over and over again....Fergie demanded that as did the senior players.
 
I made a thread about it. Cursed. I don't care. That's the only explanation. It's unprecedented the amount of things that go wrong. Even factoring pure incompetence. You put me in there and I'll fluke doing something right. You can blame the Glazers all you want and yes a lot falls into thier lap but we have had so many other issues that it's ridiculous at this point. Lingard, Pogba, Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo on and on and on. It's a fkng circus with a life of its own.
 
devilish said:
Quality is an issue but I think this is quite pressing and had been here for a long time. Players start well with us and then deteriorate very quickly.
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Only one explanation, Glazers are cursed, once they go we can recover. We have an insane amount of debt, even transfers were done using debt.
 
gulli_G said:
Only one explanation, Glazers are cursed, once they go we can recover. We have an insane amount of debt, even transfers were done using debt.
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I think the Glazers money first policy had hurt the club big time and things need time to solve. I also think that there need to be a proper clean sweep both in terms of players and of staff. United had become specialized in only one thing ie losing
 
It’s puzzling. Some things as simple as corners and free kicks - Telles I never saw before, but was told he was a great crosser and corner taker - Mata and Eriksen were brilliant - all come to the club and can’t seem to beat the first man on corners. It could be age in regards to Eriksen, but I recall he was still fine at them during the Euros.
 
Of course it is not. We have become a Disneyland where the players have limited accountability.

Players are regressing and we are OK with it. Players like Rashford, DDG, Martial and Shaw were among the highest paid players in the world but wouldn't fit in the bench of any top team.

Players like Rooney, Lingard, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, Jones and Maguire have (or had) overstayed for more than 3 years in the club.

Players like Garnacho feel entitled by the age of 19.

And fans? We tend to love the aforementioned players but we tend to hate on players like Young, Herrera, Fred, Elanga and Darmian and be vocal of how poor they were, but at least they were professional and were not happy to sit on their contracts (and actually had a good career after leaving).
 
led_scholes said:
Of course it is not. We have become a Disneyland where the players have limited accountability.

Players are regressing and we are OK with it. Players like Rashford, DDG, Martial and Shaw were among the highest paid players in the world but wouldn't fit in the bench of any top team.

Players like Rooney, Lingard, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, Jones and Maguire have (or had) overstayed for more than 3 years in the club.

Players like Garnacho feel entitled by the age of 19.

And fans? We tend to love the aforementioned players but we tend to hate on players like Young, Herrera, Fred, Elanga and Darmian and be vocal of how poor they were, but at least they were professional and were not happy to sit on their contracts (and actually had a good career after leaving).
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This.
 
led_scholes said:
Of course it is not. We have become a Disneyland where the players have limited accountability.

Players are regressing and we are OK with it. Players like Rashford, DDG, Martial and Shaw were among the highest paid players in the world but wouldn't fit in the bench of any top team.

Players like Rooney, Lingard, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, Jones and Maguire have (or had) overstayed for more than 3 years in the club.

Players like Garnacho feel entitled by the age of 19.

And fans? We tend to love the aforementioned players but we tend to hate on players like Young, Herrera, Fred, Elanga and Darmian and be vocal of how poor they were, but at least they were professional and were not happy to sit on their contracts (and actually had a good career after leaving).
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I might be biased here, but Rooney was only serious player we had after SAF departure. He wasn't in the best shape his last few years but still was very valuable player for us and other teams he was in.
I believe that lack of desire to win every ball, every match and every trophy is something what killing us. Players arrive, he receives out of the world wage and he is just kicking football for few hours per week.
You can see it during players arrival when many of them not even sign a single shirt. They just go from their car to stadium, then go home. Money in the bank everything fine.
 
We can debate tactics all day but it's definitely the culture that makes it harder for this club to succeed. You look at Wolves with their new manager - two wins in two, six goals scored and zero conceded. Could it be new manager bounce? Of course, but there is a genuine desire to want to win there.

At United I don't doubt the players want to play well but it has been an organisation that has had no effective management at the top for years. Essentially it boils down to the fact that at a club like Wolves the club comes first but at Manchester United it has been the players that come first above the club. They want to win but they don't feel a collective desire or responsibility to want to change because they have become comfortable with their setup. It's hard to work hard and challenge yourself when you get paid a fortune regardless. It will take a long time to sort this mess.
 
DanielofLeyland said:
We can debate tactics all day but it's definitely the culture that makes it harder for this club to succeed. You look at Wolves with their new manager - two wins in two, six goals scored and zero conceded. Could it be new manager bounce? Of course, but there is a genuine desire to want to win there.

At United I don't doubt the players want to play well but it has been an organisation that has had no effective management at the top for years. Essentially it boils down to the fact that at a club like Wolves the club comes first but at Manchester United it has been the players that come first above the club. They want to win but they don't feel a collective desire or responsibility to want to change because they have become comfortable with their setup. It's hard to work hard and challenge yourself when you get paid a fortune regardless. It will take a long time to sort this mess.
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Agree, we didn't even get a new manager bounce, says it all!
 
The pressure gets to them. They look around for the support system and that great intangible known as team spirit and it isn't there.

The great cultural story of the SAF United was that sense that United was both a fortress and a family. It was us against the world - leaders thrived in it, but players who weren't leaders were insulated by it.

It wasn't overnight though, it took years to build that atmosphere - SAF had to find leaders who he could work with, he had to find people like Keane and Cantona who could do their own jobs but also lead the new players breaking through. He also encouraged the same thing in their environment - great provision technically but also an expectation of privacy and comfort. SAF commented that the training ground should be a happy place - the club built the team a nest.

Afterwards we had Disneyland as a role model for the marketing and managers who looked so lost under the conflicting pressures of working for United that they had no energy to defend their players. Now combine that with the loss of key players and old leaders? Let your medical and training facilities and techniques fall behind your rivals? Not a healthy combination for family building.

Mourinho and Solsjkaer both pulled off the trick of bringing that feeling back for a short time but couldn't sustain it. I don't think the others even tried to do it - they acted like United was just another club and then drowned.

Do I think we make players worse? Yes - though some of them simply aren't good enough or flexible enough for the jobs we hire them to do. Players like Casemiro and Varane - there's a reason Real Madrid let them go and those same reasons (age and injuries) are why they were erratic rather than poor for us. But no player plays on their own and even players who can become leaders or even simply contribute well can lose their way in a dysfunctional team.

Some players though would have done/would do a lot better if the pressure on them as individuals was less and the team and the training ground were "happy places" to be. It's part of why when I read some of the desire for what amounts to revenge or punishment for players on here I'm lost.

I'm hopeful that Amorim can bring some of that us against the world spirit back. United is a tough place to be.
 
The problem I’ve noticed is we attack regularly down our left side and that makes Dalot our attacking outlet for much of the match it just doesn’t work he’s not good enough especially on the left
 
With United at present there is nothing anyone can rely on.

Quality of the players isn’t great, but add to that inconsistency, lack of confidence and prone to injuries.

The manager has no chance!
 
Players aren’t held accountable for their shit performance. The managers always get the blame and they get a clean slate once a new manager comes in and the cycle repeats.

It’s why we need a culture change and start getting rid of underperforming players. Our rebuild will only start when we finally get rid of Rashford. Until than, the club is merely trying to avoid the main issue.
 
We have changed players in the last 10 years, a new manager came in and brought 10 or more players, then the next and the circle continued, yet we are obviously in a much worse position now than we were with LVG, Mourinho or Ole.

It's clear that we are a graveyard of player talent, whoever we bring we managed to turn them into nothing players.
 
Not if you have intelligent players who understand the game, have good technical ability and work for the team.

Utd have too many dumbass players, who are lazy, have poor technical ability and don't work for the team.
 
devilish said:
How many players we've got who performed really well in their first 1-2 seasons and then they started deteriorating soon after? Some were old (ex Varane and Casemiro). However that can't be applied to the likes of Maguire, AWB, Martinez and Bruno. Even the likes of Antony who started fairly well had deteriorated and we're seeing a decline in performance with the likes of Mazraoui as well. On the flip side those who leave seem to improve. Jadon Sancho is doing fairly well with Chelsea, McTominay is working his socks off in Italy, Greenwood is killing it in the French league while Elanga and Alvaro are doing well with Forest and in Portugal. The same can be said about Fred whose a popular figure in Turkey

There's something wrong inside United that goes beyond the manager. It could be the coaching, the fitness or maybe the environment that doesn't properly motivate the players
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I really think the medical and fitness coach department need a closer look at. We seem to be obsessed with bulking up our players which seems to often come at the expanse of speed and agility. It feels like every player we buy is after 1-2 years wich us slower and more injury prone and that can't be coincidence.

Apart from the scouting department I think this is the department that is long due an overhaul and philosophy change.
 
devilish said:
How many players we've got who performed really well in their first 1-2 seasons and then they started deteriorating soon after? Some were old (ex Varane and Casemiro). However that can't be applied to the likes of Maguire, AWB, Martinez and Bruno. Even the likes of Antony who started fairly well had deteriorated and we're seeing a decline in performance with the likes of Mazraoui as well.
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Varane was good throughout his time at the club when fit (the latter part being the issue). Casemiro was good for six months before his legs gave out, which should have been an obvious concern when signing a 30 year old Brazilian with so many miles on the clock. Maguire had a dip in form, but recovered from it and forced his way back into the picture (but remains a limited player). Wan-Bissaka was no different from the day he arrived until the day he left - a very poor footballer who happens to be decent at slide tackles. Martinez has seemingly been ruined by injuries, though it's too early to write him off yet. Bruno has always been up and down in terms of form, and often absolutely diabolical when in a bad spell (like now). Antony looked decent for about five games until opposition defenders figured out that he only has one foot.

There's no connecting thread here, other than that most of them shouldn't have been signed in the first place of course. You can't "motivate" a crock like Varane to not be injured. You can't "motivate" Casemiro into being ten years younger. You're looking for easy answers, but there are none.
 
It's never just one reason, is it. The main issue, for me, is the lack of strategically aligned long-term thinking throughout the club. All decisions should be streamlined according to a clear vision for the club. The leadership should be asking and answering questions like:

What style of football do we want to implement from youth to senior level?
What kind of traits do we value highest in players who play for our club (football-wise like ball retention, first touch, athleticism, work rate but also mentally like professionalism, grit, resilience)?
What is a realistic timeline to build a first team squad according to said style and player traits?

Does this sound like a club that has been asking and answering those questions: Extend ETH contract in the summer. Sign a bunch of talented players the scouts recommend but who other than being aged 18-26 don't seem to have much in common. Sack ETH a couple of months in, chose a new head coach with a completely different tactical setup. Make said head coach sign immediately despite him preferring to sign in the summer instead.

The EPL is the most competitive football league in the world. Internationals like Cunha, Mbeumo, Kudus or Damsgaard play for mid- to bottom-half teams. The margins are small. That's why having a system and a team culture that brings out the best of each player is needed. Football squads can be a lot more than the sum of their parts or they can be way less. This squad unfortunately is the latter.
 
engie92 said:
I might be biased here, but Rooney was only serious player we had after SAF departure. He wasn't in the best shape his last few years but still was very valuable player for us and other teams he was in.
I believe that lack of desire to win every ball, every match and every trophy is something what killing us. Players arrive, he receives out of the world wage and he is just kicking football for few hours per week.
You can see it during players arrival when many of them not even sign a single shirt. They just go from their car to stadium, then go home. Money in the bank everything fine.
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Rooney was completely gone by the end of 2014 though. We then had the "silent domination" era and my captain always plays. Then he tried to become a CM type and was dependent on Hollywood balls. Rooney should have left yeas before his actual departure and when he was finally moved on, MLS was his level.
 
Castia said:
The problem I’ve noticed is we attack regularly down our left side and that makes Dalot our attacking outlet for much of the match it just doesn’t work he’s not good enough especially on the left
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You are looking at it the wrong way.

1) Rivals know Dalot isn't going to hurt them
2) They leave him in oceans of space and pack other areas
3) We therefore regularly find Dalot free to receive / as an outlet
4) Nothing much happens and we lose the ball

Rinse and repeat. We need a proper LWB to break up that death trap/spiral.

On topic, we are a mess and should clean it up. Even if it means getting unproven but hungrier players. Problem is, with PSR you get stuck amortising players ahead of taking the hit. E.g. does anyone have even a remote hope that Zirkzee will work out?
 
Too many players on massive wages strolling around like lottery winners.
 
NoLogo said:
I really think the medical and fitness coach department need a closer look at. We seem to be obsessed with bulking up our players which seems to often come at the expanse of speed and agility. It feels like every player we buy is after 1-2 years wich us slower and more injury prone and that can't be coincidence.

Apart from the scouting department I think this is the department that is long due an overhaul and philosophy change.
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I believe that 2 decades of the Glazers (who saw United as an ATM machine) saw a collapse of everything football related. Thus we're shit in terms of scouting which in turn leads us bringing the wrong type of players hence we need to 'tweak' them. That combined with a substandard fitness regime lead to more injuries and a decline in performance. Add to that different managers all with contrasting tactical philosophies and we've got a perfect mess.

There was a time when players who didn't see United as their home (ex Ronaldo, Pique and co) would still be excited in joining United because they knew that we would refine them into world class players. That's not the case anymore. We're becoming a graveyard for manager's and player's careers
 
The quality of the team isn't good enough but it's not that bad to be 14th in the league.

Give us the current Real Madrid squad, put them in a Manchester United shirt and they would still struggle because there is something so rotten in and around the club.
 
devilish said:
Quality is an issue but I think this is quite pressing and had been here for a long time. Players start well with us and then deteriorate very quickly.
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Very true, it use to be the other way around, remember how bad, such as Evra and Vidic were when they arrived, then look at how they blossomed later.

This for me is the one of the most deep-lying and hence worrying indicators for the club that is not being addressed, at least because it's a failure to be recognised; that we buy (sometimes at well over the odds) some decent players who perform at the standard for which they have been bought,.....for a while, until whatever it is that is seemingly permeating the club gets at them and they start to crumble; in performance, in spirit and whatever 'football intelligence' they had when they arrived, seems to get depleted.

Viewed at its worst, we are therefore not improving players, we are somehow destroying them. Until this trend is arrested I feel whoever we bring into manage, is pushing a 'snowball up a mountain'.
 
Waiting on players that may of played at an above average level for periods once or twice to regain that form is insane. If our players all hit peak form for a whole season we could make top four maybe win a trophy but evidence shows this will not happen. What we need to reset the curve is more players like Amad, good players that will push themselves. We've got players that will deliver a 3 or 4 out of 10 performance most games but we stick with them because they once hit a run of 9 out of 10 performances. We need a foundation of players that can regularly hit a 7 out of 10 performance then we build on that.
 
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