Raul as a #10?
Surveillance Draft - R1- Physiocrat vs mazhar13/Enigma_87
- Thread starter green_smiley
- Start date
I disagree for Silva and from the Ramos thread I think a lot of people have polar opinions of him. He played in a relatively weaker Seria A era and his peak was spent in France. I don't think he ever had some outstanding international performances so it's pretty subjective on that.
Vidal and Cocu are mainly central. The reason why Vidal is on the left is because he will have more space for his box to box role there with Silva being on the right and roaming inside the inside wing. Both of course are pretty versatile and can swap positions but they are not expected to provide width in this set up so I don't think it's big of an issue.
Raul is a second striker, not a number 10 he'll be playing off Sheva and running in channels. He's not expected to be a playmaker of any sorts.
I think Sheva is one of the most complete forwards of his generation. He could easily play as a SS or as a CF. One of his best form came with him leading the line in the 2004 Seria A winning season:
Where he had Rui Costa and Kaka behind him.
He sure has but wasn't his favorite position. In fact the best form he was central. Sure I have no problems on the left wing and he can stretch up the play surely but I don't think it's his optimal use.
It's not only Pep's system tho, He works hard in pretty much every set up - from Valencia to City and Spanish national side.
Really depends. Obviously Thuram is the better fullback, but Pessotto is no mug either. Giggs is of course the better winger out of the two so probably it's a close call in terms of who will get more joy.
Gio said:
Well Vidal did play wide left mid for Chile and even as a left wing back under Bielsa. It makes sense for him to be on the left here to me.
Think it is Cocu who makes it look odd rather than Vidal.
He has never to my knowledge played this role but it suits his attributes brilliantly. A quick and great dribbler who began as a left-winger and became a striker. He is not stretching the play on the left that is Serginho's role. Signori is playing just like Henry did in Jayvin's LV Monopoly team. In fact my setup is essentially the possession version of that line up.
@green_smiley Can you please edit Signori's player position to "inside left" please there seems to be some confusion over his role.
To avoid confusion regardng Signori's role this is how I will set up in possesion
Ehm, no. He was one of the most all-rounded forwards of his generation - pace, physicality, shooting, dribbling, heading, positioning, he had it all
Cocu will be more central so I don't think it would be an issue. A bit like Xavi playing both RCM and LCM. Not comparing them as players but mostly as position on the pitch in terms of zones and areas.
Zanetti and Silva will be the ones occupying mostly the right channel in defence/attack. Of course Cocu will close down as when needed, but seeing Serginho as the only one providing the width on the left for Physio who also will have a lot of defensive duties himself I don't think it will be that often in the defensive phase.
Yes but from tactic I see Vidal more in an all action role operating ahead of Cocu who looks more to patrol the zone right in front of CB as a DLP I think.
Yes, that role there is more what we're both talking about (second line up). I'm a bit confused of Serginho's role however as he's described as a left back, while here he's more of a winger.
Also Thuram is good in a RCB in three man defence, however I can see Giggs pulling him wide most of the time while T.Silva I can see having a tough time operating both centrally and covering the left zone.
Giggs is the type of guy who any full back regardless of how good would need to be marked throughout the entire game. He's just that type of winger you have to give 100% attention to because he's direct and will constantly run at you.
Not saying Thuram couldn't handle him, I think he can and will but it would require Thuram to focus on the task at hand.
Random thoughts
David Silva v Serginho.. I can see Silva having a big influence in this game due to him coming up against a guy who is pretty much a winger and won't be comfortable coming off the flank and following him. Flip side Silva, won't be great support defensive to track his runs but with Zanetti behind him, I reckon they'd be fine.
Assuming Thuram is focused on and takes out Giggs. Focus is then on Raul/Shev vs what I consider to be a damn good centre-back pairing. Tough call to say who will win that battle.
Cocu v Riquelme, I reckon Cocu can handle this.. he's a tactically very intelligent footballer and a good match up here.
Vidal v De Rossi.. again another evenly matched battle. Therefore imo David Silva is the key man here, and if he is allowed to roam free and run at the defence, interlinking with everyone.. he could cause some chaos and give everyone else that extra yard of space.
The other teams defence isn't as good tbh but then again the attackers it is up against are of a lesser calibre.. Ruud v Desailly (in his pomp).. should be a battle in Marcel's favour.
Pessotto is a decent match up against Kanchelskis, not the best of full backs but he'll give Kanchelskis a game.. not a tactical misfit
like Silva v Serginho.
Very tight game. Physiocrat's team I really like but I just think he's up against a very scary attacking force and doesn't have that top top tier magician in his attack who can take the game to the opposition and present an issue which is beyond the defensive system/personnel of Enigma.
David Silva v Serginho.. I can see Silva having a big influence in this game due to him coming up against a guy who is pretty much a winger and won't be comfortable coming off the flank and following him. Flip side Silva, won't be great support defensive to track his runs but with Zanetti behind him, I reckon they'd be fine.
Assuming Thuram is focused on and takes out Giggs. Focus is then on Raul/Shev vs what I consider to be a damn good centre-back pairing. Tough call to say who will win that battle.
Cocu v Riquelme, I reckon Cocu can handle this.. he's a tactically very intelligent footballer and a good match up here.
Vidal v De Rossi.. again another evenly matched battle. Therefore imo David Silva is the key man here, and if he is allowed to roam free and run at the defence, interlinking with everyone.. he could cause some chaos and give everyone else that extra yard of space.
The other teams defence isn't as good tbh but then again the attackers it is up against are of a lesser calibre.. Ruud v Desailly (in his pomp).. should be a battle in Marcel's favour.
Pessotto is a decent match up against Kanchelskis, not the best of full backs but he'll give Kanchelskis a game.. not a tactical misfit
like Silva v Serginho.
Very tight game. Physiocrat's team I really like but I just think he's up against a very scary attacking force and doesn't have that top top tier magician in his attack who can take the game to the opposition and present an issue which is beyond the defensive system/personnel of Enigma.
I'm actually a big fan of Shevchenko all my point is that when his pace went he was far less effective and that to get the best out of him is to play him as a second-striker
Well it's a bit of a moot point as we're not using Chelsea's Sheva here but the peak one. During his time with Milan (and the Rebrov/Sheva duo at Dinamo) he played alongside a lot of forwards and I don't think he looked less effective in either of those cases.
Besides he and Raul are two forwards I can see working well together and pairing each other, which is of course why we picked them
Sheva in the three seasons from 04-06 scored 29,26 and 28 goals respectively, with partners like Kaka and Tomasson(SS himself).
Riquelme was absolutely brilliant when he had a team which fit around him which this does. It's true it's not a midfield diamond but he has a solid CM base with quality back three so there's always five players behind him as he would have in a diamond in possession. Also with Signori operating in a similar manner to how a striker in a diamond would he has options all over the pitch to create openings. Cocu is a decent player no doubt but you need a DM of much higher quality to shut him out.
Also you're underrating Ruud. At his best he was an absolute beast and is probably only second to Batistuta in terms of pure strikers in this pool. Also Signori is on Desially side so Ruud is up against Worns.
There were lots of factors that led to his decline. And I don't know why you're insisting on him being a second-striker, I think that his partnership with Raul is brilliant and well suited to their strengths.
Cocu is a good match for Riquelme. I don't think the latter was such decisive player you are describing him as. He was inconsistent and never reached the heights or his full potential. Exciting player no doubt.
Serginho on the other hand I think has a tough task on hand to man the whole flank. If T. Silva goes to cover IMO that will lead to plenty of space for our attacking duo.
As good as Ruud is, apart from United's bias I'd take both Raul and Sheva (peak level) in front of him due to both being more complete to him and have a bit more to their game. I think both Worns and Desailly are good fit for him.
Well it's a bit of a moot point as we're not using Chelsea's Sheva here but the peak one. During his time with Milan (and the Rebrov/Sheva duo at Dinamo) he played alongside a lot of forwards and I don't think he looked less effective in either of those cases.
Besides he and Raul are two forwards I can see working well together and pairing each other, which is of course why we picked them
Sheva in the three seasons from 04-06 scored 29,26 and 28 goals respectively, with partners like Kaka and Tomasson(SS himself.
All my Chelsea point was that his pace was a big part of what made him great which is why I prefer him a little deeper to use his pace and dribble
On Riquelme if Pekerman hadn't have taken him off Argentina could well have got to the final. If a major team had been in a transitional phase and chose to build around him his stock would be much higher.
Apart from Maldini and possibly Ferdinand I can't think of a better defender to cover that defensive left channel- Silva is an athletic but intelligent player. Also it is hardly a rare job for a CB these days- anyone who was an LCB in a back four with R Carlos left back would play similarly. Note also De Rossi can help out here which is why he's LCM rather than RCM.
Also if Silva is cutting in during a counter Zanetti will have to hair forward quickly. If he doesn't your attack will be very asymmetric and my defense will just slide across.
I acknowledge I'm playing an attacking formation but it isn't gung-ho by any stretch.
For me Riquelme is a great talent and one who can light up any occasion if in the right set up.. Cocu isn't a goat DM but physically he is a good match here against this particular player and one of the few with the smarts to deal with a Riquelme. Personally think Riquelme plays better with forward runners from
Midfield and dynamic CF in front of him. Him and Ruud not the most electrifying duo although it is an extremely classy one.
It's a really tight game I honestly think you could win this - so my vote is still up for grabs. I only vote enigma because I think Silva could run riot.
On Riquelme - there are cases like that but it's what it is. Cocu was excellent for a PSV and Barca side and having in mind both players it's not unfair to say they are a good fit for each other and it's possible for either of them to have the upper hand here.
I don't rate T.Silva that high. He is bound for occasional feckup and apart from his athleticism he's not in the Maldini/Ferdinand bracket at all. Especially when he has to cover for Serginho who is deployed as a winger here. Serginho himself was pretty hit and miss defensively(more of a miss) and with David Silva and Zanetti running that right wing there will be all sorts of problems.
I don't think Zanetti running up and down the wing is an issue, especially having in mind who is he up against and his quality.
aye, I think they are a good fit for each other. Riquelme, Signori and Ruud at the same time (only Signori is a more mobile forward) will occupy the central zone with only Serginho and Kanchelskis stretching the play - both of who have pretty tough task as well given their defensive duties.
Yeah thought that was the case with Vidal.
Regarding Silva though, I'm not really sure what the flaws are in his game and the only criticism from the Ramos thread seemed to be that he'd played in Ligue Un and Serie A. I'm not really sure that makes any difference when his Champions League and Brazil performances have been mostly top class. He has had a fair number of big standout showings in the Champions League with both PSG and Milan. Nor am I convinced that he has had that much of an easier gig than the likes of Ramos or Pique at the back of teams with 70-75% possession every week.
On Desailly his peak was clearly as a defensive midfielder where he is as good as anyone (Rijkaard's more expansive but nobody beats what Desailly offered defensively there). He's a very good centre-half, but his CV there is less compelling with him doing that role only consistently once he didn't really have the legs for the midfield stuff.
On Shevchenko and Raul, it looks a very tasty partnership and I've got no issues with the role Shevchenko is playing. They're both all-rounders in the support-striker and centre-forward stakes and could dovetail off each other quite well IMO.
Agree with this.
Ultimately I would still take Desailly first out of the three options due to his superior credentials with the national side, but in terms of performances I agree with you that there is no gulf in ability between him and Silva/Campbell. I picked Campbell previously and he's always been a bit underrated, he was immense physically at his peak - lightening quick despite being a massive bloke.
At last a chance to release the vids. This one shows the brilliant attacking ability of Serginho:
Kanchelskis- it's a bit long but just watching the first few minutes shows how he can own the right wing on his own.
Goal 21 here at around 4:19 shows what I'm trying to get out of Signori. Goal 36 at about 7:20 shows it a little too.
Kanchelskis- it's a bit long but just watching the first few minutes shows how he can own the right wing on his own.
Goal 21 here at around 4:19 shows what I'm trying to get out of Signori. Goal 36 at about 7:20 shows it a little too.
I see your point with Ruud but his movement is excellent plus Signori is mobile and we have Kanchelskis wide right and Serginho left so he has a lot of options to aim at especially with a possession build up in attack.
I see the point about Silva but with De Rossi helping out I don't see him causing too much damage. Also as I said before unless Zanetti hares forward most counter-attacks Enigma's attacks will be quite lopsided so me defense will just shift across. Also attacking full-backs don't leave huge space to exploit in the modern game and I don't expect it here.
Well he was clearly excellent as a CB and has the credentials of a top class CB especially in the era he played in. His CV there is back to back WC and EURO winner rarely can get better than that
That's what's expected of Zanetti and with only Serginho on that flank he can boss it and be decisive in this game. Especially with Silva operating there as well.
I think we have the upper hand on both flanks, especially with Thuram's restricted RCB role.
Kanchelskis has far fewer defensive responsibilities than Serginho given the fact Thuram is behind him plus Modric isn't shabby defensively either.
Signori says hello again
Probably disagree with this slightly though.
I actually agree with Physiocrat and don't love that partnership personally - Shevchenko was a complete striker and I agree with the view that he would operate better in a second striker role. Stylistically they're completely different but I do think there is a bit of an overlap in the positions that him and Raul would pick up.
Personally I think Raul would be better paired with Ruud, they had a great little partnership when they played together - potentially a bit slow but it would work even better with Raul from 1999-2002.
I thought Signori was central as per your latest lineup? Either way Signori is not a player that will track back as a wide midfielder and help the full back on regular basis.
Sure, but Thuram will have to deal with one of Raul, Sheva as well when Silva is pulled outside. WIth Giggs also on the flank he'll be fairly busy this game.
Yeah, while I think Shevchenko and Raul are rounded enough to make it work, I'd agree with that. Raul/Ronaldo worked very well, but the cleanest partnership Raul had was with Morientes who was a more direct line-leader. Raul/RVN would be a similar dynamic.
Out of possession it is a 4231 where Signori will occupy the wide left position. In possession he moves to a second striker role and Serginho takes over the left flank to make a 3232. So when we lose the ball Signori will shift out left again.
I find this really inaccurate to be honest. Shevchenko probably had the best years as a sole striker with Tomasson and Kaka behind him, yet he's a second striker?
Raul also played as a CF or a SS - with both types of forwards. I find it really odd to have something wrong with our attack.