Success vs Entertainment

At some point entertainment is required. I just don't want to see dreadful, though successful, football season after season.

The context in which this question is asked is clearly the relatively ugly football by United we're watching right now. I'm happy to accept ugly football provided that it leads us to a place where we can become entertaining. We can become English league champions playing ugly football, but we can't be a CL trophy winning side playing ugly football. Bag the English trophy first, improve, become entertaining again, win the CL trophy...I'll have no shame in enjoying seeing us go from a Moyesian 7th place to a treble winner if it means we have to endure a few years of better, though ugly, football.
 
SteveJ said:
The (rather sad) truth is: if it's all about the entertainment for you, then you're not emotionally invested enough.
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It's important. For me supporting United is a turf thing, I'm from Manchester and location is crucial. And I'm very emotionally invested(although I was more crazy about the game decade ago. Age?). Perhaps folk who've been supporting United since our most successful period care more about winning at all costs than style and entertainment? Then again, I suspect fans of some clubs care more about style of play than others. Real sacked Capello twice for playing pragmatic football despite winning the leagues on both occasions. The board and fans weren't happy. I think United fans aren't as demanding but as you saw last night they'll get frustrated eventually (they were wrong yesterday though...). So yeah perhaps United fans are different. Just like Real fans are. Or West Ham United fans!
 
Spock said:
The context in which this question is asked is clearly the relatively ugly football by United we're watching right now. I'm happy to accept ugly football provided that it leads us to a place where we can become entertaining.
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You are not wrong, but I deliberately made the question quite open and ideological, and put it in the football forum (rather than the United forum) because I didnt want it to just be another debate on how LVG's United side is currently doing. Context plays a big part, and at the moment I think the most important thing for United would be to win the league, regardless of how we do it.

However the overall discussion I wanted to more be about what - as a fan - you look for. Why do you support the club and what do you want to see? And this is where the success vs entertainment comes in.

I agree with what @JPRouve just said, when going down to the very fundamental question of what football actually is - it is a competitive sports activity. For the players and managers it is a pretty easy choice - they want to win, of course, but for fans, do you spend money to go and watch a football match (or watch on TV every week) to see your team win, or to be entertained? What is your ultimate objective as an individual - to support a successful football club that wins a lot of trophies, or to be entertained? For me it is definitely the latter, although of course the two are linked.
 
@Spoony you touched on something related to this thread that I was hoping would come up - which is how much (if at all), the "success vs entertainment" debate is affected by factors such as the historical (and recent) success of the club, and the general size of the club.
United have of course been a vastly successful club over the last 20-30 years, and so therefore could it be fair to say that this has attracted supporters who naturally value success as the most important factor?

If we asked the same question in the forum of a less successful club, would the results be different? On the one hand, a league title would surely mean a lot more to a supporter of say Everton or Spurs, but on the other hand, if those supporters (and I am generalising a bit here) were so obsessed with success, would/could they not have gone and simply supported a more successful club in the first place?
 
Walrus said:
@Spoony you touched on something related to this thread that I was hoping would come up - which is how much (if at all), the "success vs entertainment" debate is affected by factors such as the historical (and recent) success of the club, and the general size of the club.
United have of course been a vastly successful club over the last 20-30 years, and so therefore could it be fair to say that this has attracted supporters who naturally value success as the most important factor?

If we asked the same question in the forum of a less successful club, would the results be different? On the one hand, a league title would surely mean a lot more to a supporter of say Everton or Spurs, but on the other hand, if those supporters (and I am generalising a bit here) were so obsessed with success, would/could they not have gone and simply supported a more successful club in the first place?
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This is where relativity comes in.

Success to us is winning league titles, Conquering Europe, etc. Not to say, it's different with Everton or Spurs, but realistically they have to set the bar a bit lower - To let's say, 4th place.

Would an Everton fan settle for dire football, if it meant finishing in the top 4?
 
The argument against success seems to be hinged on the assumption that people are against entertainment. Which is wrong.
 
Roman Bellic said:
This is where relativity comes in.

Success to us is winning league titles, Conquering Europe, etc. Not to say, it's different with Everton or Spurs, but realistically they have to set the bar a bit lower - To let's say, 4th place.

Would an Everton fan settle for dire football, if it meant finishing in the top 4?
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Fair point.

Roman Bellic said:
The argument against success seems to be hinged on the assumption that people are against entertainment. Which is wrong.
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My argument is more that there are people who want success because that success brings them entertainment, in which case surely they should be identifying as on the "entertainment" side of the debate, and the success is just a means to an end?

I dont think anyone is anti-success, or anti-entertainment for that matter (maybe LVG...hur hur hur!) - its a simple question of ideologies and personal preference. I want football for entertainment first and foremost. I have supported United since I was about 5 and of course want to see the club do well, but the reason I watch and follow football, is as a pastime leisure activity which is ultimately for entertainment. United winning a trophy means basically nothing to me in itself - however that trophy might bring me some entertainment, either directly (yay we won the league) or indirectly (mocking my scouse workmates the next day).

For those who say that success is the be-all and end-all and the only thing that is important - I ask why do you actually watch the game at all, and not just check the score after it is over?
 
Wintertainment. That's what we should aim for. Or possibly infotainment: Playing gung-ho football but balancing it with LVG giving lectures on the merits of possession football at half time.
 
Walrus said:
Fair point.



My argument is more that there are people who want success because that success brings them entertainment, in which case surely they should be identifying as on the "entertainment" side of the debate, and the success is just a means to an end?

I dont think anyone is anti-success, or anti-entertainment for that matter (maybe LVG...hur hur hur!) - its a simple question of ideologies and personal preference. I want football for entertainment first and foremost. I have supported United since I was about 5 and of course want to see the club do well, but the reason I watch and follow football, is as a pastime leisure activity which is ultimately for entertainment. United winning a trophy means basically nothing to me in itself - however that trophy might bring me some entertainment, either directly (yay we won the league) or indirectly (mocking my scouse workmates the next day).

For those who say that success is the be-all and end-all and the only thing that is important - I ask why do you actually watch the game at all, and not just check the score after it is over?
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All valid points.

I think most people chose success over entertainment - because it guarantees wins. In order to win, you need to outscore your opponents, which in turn is entertaining - as you can either shut them out with a fabulous defensive display, or you obliterate their defence with your attack.

You'll struggle to find largely successful teams in the history of club football that weren't the least bit entertaining. Even Mourinho's Chelsea were very much the best team in the country in the first half of the season, in their 14/15 championship winning season.

I think every philosophy executed perfectly is entertaining. Yes, even Gaal's philosophy. We just haven't been able to perfect it, and frankly, i don't think we will, before he retires.
 
Walrus said:
You are not wrong, but I deliberately made the question quite open and ideological, and put it in the football forum (rather than the United forum) because I didnt want it to just be another debate on how LVG's United side is currently doing. Context plays a big part, and at the moment I think the most important thing for United would be to win the league, regardless of how we do it.

However the overall discussion I wanted to more be about what - as a fan - you look for. Why do you support the club and what do you want to see? And this is where the success vs entertainment comes in.

I agree with what @JPRouve just said, when going down to the very fundamental question of what football actually is - it is a competitive sports activity. For the players and managers it is a pretty easy choice - they want to win, of course, but for fans, do you spend money to go and watch a football match (or watch on TV every week) to see your team win, or to be entertained? What is your ultimate objective as an individual - to support a successful football club that wins a lot of trophies, or to be entertained? For me it is definitely the latter, although of course the two are linked.
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I get it now.

If we're backing up the truck to ask an almost philosophical question as to why one watches sporting events, it's clearly entertainment. All about entertainment, no?

No one would pay good money to watch a ditch digger to successfully dig ditches or a watchmaker make watches. Most of us will, however, pay good money -- whether at the movie theater, the opera house, a porn shop, or a sporting venue to be entertained. I would not watch a movie merely to confirm that a movie production company has successfully made a movie, watch an opera to confirm that the actors in the opera itself successfully performed their roles, to watch two actors successfully have an orgasm, or to watch a football match to learn than Team A was successful in beating Team B.

It it self-evident in the very nature of sports for fans to watch sporting events because they wish to be entertained by the spectacle of the sporting event.
 
Has to be entertainment otherwise whats the point? You might as well just skip the game and check the score after the match has finished.

I love seeing United win trophies but at the end of the day you watch 40-50 ninety minute games every year while the enjoyment of winning a trophy only lasts days/weeks, i would rather be entertained for the whole year and compete than play tumescent football and bus park our way to a title.

Of course if i supported a team where i wasn't lucky enough to have seen them win many trophies in my lifetime or if i was just a pure glory hound in it for bragging rights then my view might be different.

But the obvious answer is the aim for a club with United's history and resources should be both, successful teams that play great football will be respected and remembered. Teams who bore the tits off people and 1-0 their way to a title will not be so fondly remembered.
 
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When we go back in time inside our heads and think about great moments in sports, we don't think about the pot game celebration after Team A beat Team B for the trophy, we think about those moments when we were entertained, so to speak.

For United fans, we think about Ole scoring the match-winner, not the actual lifting of the CL trophy after the match. For basketball fans, it might be Michael Jordan's jump shot to beat the Utah Jazz or Magic Johnson's hook shot to beat the Celtics. For baseball fans, Kirk Gibson's home run in the bottom of the ninth against Dennis Eckersley or Bobby Thompson's "shot heard around the world". I'm sure there are epic moments in the history of rugby and cricket. It's what they do on the pitch/field/court that matters, not really about who won and who lost.

We sports fans live to witness awe-inspiring athletic spectacle.
 
Listening to 'the tuesday club' podcast would tell you all you need to know.
 
You can definitely find a right blend as many teams do. It's not like it's only Fergie who has been successful while playing attacking football.
 
Spoony said:
It's important. For me supporting United is a turf thing, I'm from Manchester and location is crucial. And I'm very emotionally invested(although I was more crazy about the game decade ago. Age?). Perhaps folk who've been supporting United since our most successful period care more about winning at all costs than style and entertainment? Then again, I suspect fans of some clubs care more about style of play than others. Real sacked Capello twice for playing pragmatic football despite winning the leagues on both occasions. The board and fans weren't happy. I think United fans aren't as demanding but as you saw last night they'll get frustrated eventually (they were wrong yesterday though...). So yeah perhaps United fans are different. Just like Real fans are. Or West Ham United fans!
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I think you are spot on. But supportig is one only thing to me. When I was young, I only wanted my team to win, because I thought winning is everything. The older I got, the more I saw, the more I started to love the beauty of the game. And suddenly I could even appreaciate when beauty was performed from another club. That doesn't diminish at all my love to my club, but I do have a broader perspective to the game, and life in general. All natural. BTW, I'm in my 40's, don't feel old at all. But I do feel old sometimes when I see the unaffected enthusiasm from younger people. Which is cool, I'm just a step ahead, IMHO.
 
The answer is obviously success. Daft question!
 
Entertainment 100%.

If success is the be all and end all, pretty soon i'll stop watching games and just check for the result.

It makes football nothing but dick measuring, my team wins more than yours, 18-5 etc, but i was never in it for this this.

99% of football clubs won't win anything, but people still go to watch their teams try.
 
since it has to be one or the other in this case, let's put it this way.

would you draw 4-4 every game playing gung ho kamikaze football or 1-0 win every game but via negative and boring tactics, doing just enough to squeeze out a win every time? I would take the dour 1-0 win every time. I doubt any united fan enjoyed us losing 3-5 to leicester last season, I doubt any united fan enjoyed us drawing 4-4 to everton in that season either.
 
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I feel the question is pertinent at a relatively smaller clubs forum, not on a Manchester United forum. At a big club, the responsibility is to entertain while bringing about success. The bigger clubs have huge resources, the best players, the best facilities, the best coaches - success and entertainment shouldn't be mutually exclusive at the Real's, Bayern's, Barca's and United's. When you have the most expensively assembled and paid group of players, then you cannot make a case of one over the other.

Yes, it is not possible to be entertaining in each and every game. There can be hundred different reasons because of which a team is not entertaining in a particular game or a during a particular period or has to adjust to the opposition, but there are few excuses for being a boring team on a consistent basis.

It's funny how we are quick to chastise Benitez or Jose for being defensive, boring managers, but get on the defensive if the same question is asked of us.
 
Success.

There were periods when teams under SAF play some real drab stuff, but thats mostly forgotten and what is remembered are the trophies.

Arsenal probably play the best football and have done for most of the last 20 years, but with so little to show for it.
 
Impossible question for a big club because both have to be provided but if one had to be chosen definitely entertainment because ultimately success will mean nothing to me. I didn't start following football because teams won trophies but because the game, when played beautifully, is fecking art.
 
Money doesn't make you happy. But it's much easier to miserable when you're rich.

Success.

But in a dreamworld, I'd like to think that you can balance these two and be successful by playing entertaining football.
 
Sky1981 said:
Dunno about most of thr munich fans, but i believe they will trade anything (handgoal, red card, boring football, playing for the penalty with 0 shots on goals) if it means winning it. @Balu
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Dunno about most of the munich fans, but I certainly wouldn't. The question makes zero sense anyway, at least not to fans of top clubs. You can't achieve longterm success without trying to play (at least to some degree) entertaining football. If we're talking about one single isolated incident, then it's a different story. Obviously Greek football fans prefered the defensive football in 2004 over losing while playing attacking football.

But I also don't claim that there's only one way to play beautiful football. There definitely is some beauty in flawless defending and perfect counterattacking for example. A team like Capello's Milan wasn't necessarily as entertaining as you'd expect it from a side with so much quality, but outside of a crazy high standard, they were still entertaining.

If you ask me if I rather had a truely defensive manager taken over after Heynckes, who serves up shit on a stick football each week but would have defended the CL title, then the answer is 'no'. The weekly experience of watching your team play beautiful football is worth a lot more than that one big party at the end, at least to me. But then again, it comes back to me being crazy spoilt in terms of trophies anyway. I demand more from my club, I expect us to attempt to win by playing entertaining football, which means you have to start by playing in an entertaining way and hope success follows. It doesn't work the other way, never has.
 
Balu said:
Dunno about most of the munich fans, but I certainly wouldn't. The question makes zero sense anyway, at least not to fans of top clubs. You can't achieve longterm success without trying to play (at least to some degree) entertaining football. If we're talking about one single isolated incident, then it's a different story. Obviously Greek football fans prefered the defensive football in 2004 over losing while playing attacking football.

But I also don't claim that there's only one way to play beautiful football. There definitely is some beauty in flawless defending and perfect counterattacking for example. A team like Capello's Milan wasn't necessarily as entertaining as you'd expect it from a side with so much quality, but outside of a crazy high standard, they were still entertaining.

If you ask me if I rather had a truely defensive manager taken over after Heynckes, who serves up shit on a stick football each week but would have defended the CL title, then the answer is 'no'. The weekly experience of watching your team play beautiful football is worth a lot more than that one big party at the end, at least to me. But then again, it comes back to me being crazy spoilt in terms of trophies anyway. I demand more from my club, I expect us to attempt to win by playing entertaining football, which means you have to start by playing in an entertaining way and hope success follows. It doesn't work the other way, never has.
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Excellent post.

As a fan, one big party at the end doesn't bring anything besides bragging rights. Now, if I was a Liverpool fan, in our current predicament, I would take that one big party at the end of this season. As a United fan, it doesn't do anything for me.
 
Insanity said:
Excellent post.

As a fan, one big party at the end doesn't bring anything besides bragging rights. Now, if I was a Liverpool fan, in our current predicament, I would take that one big party at the end of this season. As a United fan, it doesn't do anything for me.
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I read your post wrong initially. Sorry for the first reply!

EDIT: However I'm not sure that boring football will be their problem! I do think, if Klopp brings many more positive changes for them with their meagre squad while LvG is still asking for more time (after 18 months) and even more money (I forget what the total is now … you'll have to ask Owen Hargreves) simply to massage his own ego and to write his own place in history I think you'll see more posts like yours over in RAWK next season than on here!
 
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