You don't choose who you care about.
Success vs Entertainment
- Thread starter Walrus
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You don't choose who you care about.
If it meant winning every season? Hell yeah.
Flip that question around - would you take scintilating football and never winning a trophy each and every season?
Sounds like a bar you'd find down a back alley in Bangkok.
You apparently do, if the reinforcements that come with winning and losing are just 'by products' to you.
Even fans of Sunday league teams care about winning.
I answered and it's yes, I will take ambitious collective football over winning every seasons, for the simple reason that you don't win every seasons it's not even realistic to win every seasons but playing a nice brand of football 60%-70% of the time is realistic.
Successful and entertaining: United class of 92
Successful and not entertaining: Chelsea mourinho era
Not successful but entertaining: Arsenal during their trophy drought
Not successful and not entertaining: West Ham
Successful and not entertaining: Chelsea mourinho era
Not successful but entertaining: Arsenal during their trophy drought
Not successful and not entertaining: West Ham
Some people got entertained with football, some with glory, some people just love the thought of having a team to root for and rival to slag, some just like to watch a football game and happens to need a flagship team to support, some are pure glory hunter bragging bastard, some are purist, whatever, as long as you're entertained watching united.
I was entertained during moyes era in a way, seeing my team blips out nose dived, seeing it rise under lvg, feeling the thrill of the unknown after saf retirement, excitement of our first game post saf, excited about our new signing, I'm entertained by the tragedy of our cup defeat, just like winning a treble entertain me.
If im only looking for beautiful football with no atrachment ill simply watch barcelona, or united, or whoever plays the best football. Ditto if im a glory hunter, i pretend to support the successful teams of the season.
Neither trophies vs. Entertain is logical if the same variable is united, we never fully excel at both, sometimes during the good time we have both, sometimes not either.
If it's football only then why dont everyone just support barcelona/madrid? If it's trophies the same question applies.
The fact that there are thousands of people still watching tony pullis stoke and supported their team defies logic if it's beautiful football they're after.
I was entertained during moyes era in a way, seeing my team blips out nose dived, seeing it rise under lvg, feeling the thrill of the unknown after saf retirement, excitement of our first game post saf, excited about our new signing, I'm entertained by the tragedy of our cup defeat, just like winning a treble entertain me.
If im only looking for beautiful football with no atrachment ill simply watch barcelona, or united, or whoever plays the best football. Ditto if im a glory hunter, i pretend to support the successful teams of the season.
Neither trophies vs. Entertain is logical if the same variable is united, we never fully excel at both, sometimes during the good time we have both, sometimes not either.
If it's football only then why dont everyone just support barcelona/madrid? If it's trophies the same question applies.
The fact that there are thousands of people still watching tony pullis stoke and supported their team defies logic if it's beautiful football they're after.
No I don't, United could play like Wimbledon and I will still support them. The MHRC played a very South African type of Rugby during six months and it was fine, I don't like it but you can't always have what you want.
So you prefer entertainment knowing full well you will lose? That's even worse tbh
Well yes, since you never win a trophy each and every seasons.
I don't see what this has to do with my post.
From my perspective, success for the team is great and all that, but if it was all about the result I'd just get app notifications when the match ended, and keep it moving. Such a narrow view also trivializes the support of millions of fans across the world at all levels who don't support clubs that are as successful as ours. All the trophies and clubs and transfers and tactics and drama revolve around the simple concept of a ball, pitch, and 22 men. If success has to come at the expense of the quality of the actual game being played on the ground (on a continuous basis, not just a few isolated games), then cool and awesome for the players, and fans who enjoy that shit. But me? Blah.
Success. Otherwise what's the point? Its a competitive sport not the high school play ground.
Though as pointed out, success is entertaining but entertainment isn't successful.
Though as pointed out, success is entertaining but entertainment isn't successful.
Ask yourself this every season, the question ends at the end of the season. And next year its the same question.
Winning the league defensive boring 1-0
Winning 4-0 each game but falls short
If your answer is guaranteed to happen, which would you choose?
Winning the league defensive boring 1-0
Winning 4-0 each game but falls short
If your answer is guaranteed to happen, which would you choose?
There is next to no chance to fall short if you win each games 4-0 and if you are in the same league than the other team you just destroy them on goal difference, assuming that they drew both games.
That's because it's a hopeless exercise to try and reduce support to personal gratification arising from success, or football quality, or whatever.
The (rather sad) truth is: if it's all about the entertainment for you, then you're not emotionally invested enough.
The post i was responding to dismissed success as a by product, in this case - trophies, since we're talking about United.
Which led me to question his decision to remain a fan. Reinforcements ( both positive and negative) are what being a fan is all about - winning and reaching your targets, losing and getting eliminated,relegated and regressing as a team etc.
If entertainment is what you're after, then playing the best football in the country,despite losing all your games should sustain you as a fan, heck you should even be ecstatic.
A single performance might draw you to a team, but it's not what keeps you, you have to build on that, you start caring about the team's goals and aspirations, the quality of the team etc.
But I guess it's all subjective at the end of the day. Telling another individual how to support a team goes against my principles, so I'll stop now.
It has nothing to do with supporting, it's about how you feel as an individual, there is no one and nothing to judge, you just have to give your feelings and that's it. Personally the day I stop enjoying football, I will stop watching it, success or not success.
An example that isn't about entertainment but moral, Karabatic, his brother and 5 other players bet against the MAHB, they knew it was illegal and they knew that it would hurt the club badly if they were caught but they did it. And like almost everyone in my town we wanted them out of the club we knew that it would be awful for the club, especially since the Qatari bought PSG, we knew that it would be the end of the club as the best club in France but moral was above success.
There's no guarantees - only that you will be entertained. In the other scenario there is a guarantee of success which I presume means winning and also a guarantee that you will not be entertained.
My statement was that the scenario says I can still be entertained in that scenario even if we lose every week. It doesn't say I would know full well before starting that we would lose. If anything - i was saying that although I might not find losing every week entertaining the scenario says I would do... so it's the obvious choice.
It has everything to do with your post if winning and losing is secondary to you.
It's not an exhibition game with street rules, where tricks and skills get you more points than actually putting the ball in the net - FIFA street and all that.
The primary aim is to score more goals than your opponent, not nutmeg them to death.
Success is not just about trophies. Success for United is winning trophies, success for Watford is either staying in the premier league, or anything better than that.
It's safe to say you probably haven't enjoyed watching United since the 2010/11 season then.
This is stepping into morality, which is very different.
I agree with the point about it all being subjective. I just disagree with viewing success and failure as trivial.
Success.
I'm actually offended you brought up FIFA street, eff you ho
I haven't enjoyed watching United much in recent years, bar isolated patches. Then again I get my fill for great football from elsewhere, while still supporting United.
I'm a football fan first and foremost. I enjoy the perfection of the art of the sport. Great possession football, searing counter attacks, defensive masterclasses. All with the purpose of winning the game, not faffing about.
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Ha! Had to reference one of the greats.
That makes sense.
I'm sort of in the same boat. Except, I masturbate to our trophy wins.
Fair.
I'm a football fan first and foremost. I enjoy the perfection of the art of the sport. Great possession football, searing counter attacks, defensive masterclasses. The trickery of Best, the finesse of Baggio, Maradona tying defenders up in knots, Messi gliding through defences at will, not scoreless bores and teams dominating possession by keeping the ball in their own half.
I honestly think after years of domination under SAF the big trick for us is winning the league again quickly. The last thing we want is another 26 year wait as there was between Busby and Fergie. I'd sacrifice entertainment to win the league soon and avoid the Ferguson legacy building for successive managers.
Why do people need to come to black and white conclusions?
I would rather be entertained with a chance of success, than bored but with a greater chance of success.
The two should not be exclusive.
Sometimes you need to prioritise success, usually the closer you get to the prize.
Sometimes entertainment is context rather than style. Sometimes you are entertained but without success.
Everyone will have an opinion of the importance of these factors, from their preference, but to say one is more important than the other is folly, and an attempt to impose your choice on others.
If only entertainment matters there would be no need to succeed.
If only success matters there would be no need to watch the game.
I would rather be entertained with a chance of success, than bored but with a greater chance of success.
The two should not be exclusive.
Sometimes you need to prioritise success, usually the closer you get to the prize.
Sometimes entertainment is context rather than style. Sometimes you are entertained but without success.
Everyone will have an opinion of the importance of these factors, from their preference, but to say one is more important than the other is folly, and an attempt to impose your choice on others.
If only entertainment matters there would be no need to succeed.
If only success matters there would be no need to watch the game.
I'm a football fan first and foremost. I enjoy the perfection of the art of the sport. Great possession football, searing counter attacks, defensive masterclasses. The trickery of Best, the finesse of Baggio, Maradona tying defenders up in knots, Messi gliding through defences at will, not scoreless bores and teams dominating possession by keeping the ball in their own half.
And therefore agree with you.
I know some scousers who were loving it even though they finished without the title so it's not always about the result. Over the last year or two I have changed my stance on the entertainment vs result debate, I just see it as a day out now so leaving with three points is a bonus.
Now that's just crazy
I prefer success on the pitch.
I'd quite like it if we won the quadruple this year.
I'd quite like it if we won the quadruple this year.
What?
Most teams who win trophies (success) are entertaining. You don't win leagues by not scoring for example. Only team I recall being boring and winning the league was Chelsea last year.
An ideal question is would you take entertainment with us being generally 7th/8th (out of Europe or at least out of CL) over us being not entertaining and generally top of the table or thereabouts?
your two options doesn't cover merely success vs merely entertainment. It covers 'merely success' vs 'entertainment' which isn't the question in the thread.
Football is a game, it's an activity that you practice or watch to spend time between your daily chores. Now in that game there is a winner and a loser and at the end everyone wants to win, but you normally want to do it in a way that entertains, amuses you.