Success vs Entertainment

Walrus

Oppressed White Male
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
11,222
The age old question. Simply put; as a fan, if you had to choose between one of the above - ignoring external issues like CL qualification, club revenue etc - would you rather see the club you support be successful, or to play good, entertaining football every week?

Now lets be clear - I am aware that the two are not mutually exclusive. It is obviously possible to have both, but thats not the question. If given the choice between success on the pitch or entertaining football, which would you choose?

@Damien and other mods, a poll would be greatly appreciated.
 
ah there's too many possibilities.

Success - is it regularly successful in every competition (annual quadruples) or just a similar hit rate of championships to SAF
Entertainment - is it the most entertaining football we have ever seen (Harlem Globetrotter shit) but coming up short at the end of the league like some of Madrid's Galactico teams or is it the kind of team who finishes outside the top 5 but plays good football like Southampton
 
712 said:
What usually happens with this topic is that loads of stupid caftards don't actually read the question and come on to say 'we can have both'.
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Bwuk said:
Why can't we have both
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Heh.

Assuming entertainment can be measured by goals scored (which works for me, anyway) I wonder how often teams have been the highest goal-scorers in a league and not won it?

Bit different in cup competitions, where it's easier to shit on a stick yourself to glory. Rafa Benitez has made a career out of it.
 
Roman Bellic said:
Success is entertaining.
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Arruda said:
I was just going to post this.

I'm sure Greeks didn't find Euro 2004 boring.
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Unexpected success is undoubtedly entertaining. Everyone loves an underdog eg Greece. But if we are talking about United, or another big club (although I posted this in the football forum as I wanted to see what some oppo fans might think as well), I dont think that applies quite so well.
Is United winning a trophy inherently entertaining? In the short term, sure - the immediate euphoria, the bragging rights so that you can proudly boast to your mates that your club is better than their club etc. But when I say 'entertainment' I am talking about over the entire course of the season.


GBBQ said:
ah there's too many possibilities.

Success - is it regularly successful in every competition (annual quadruples) or just a similar hit rate of championships to SAF
Entertainment - is it the most entertaining football we have ever seen (Harlem Globetrotter shit) but coming up short at the end of the league like some of Madrid's Galactico teams or is it the kind of team who finishes outside the top 5 but plays good football like Southampton
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The question is more just meant to be ideological. For the reasons you stated and the fact that it is possible to have both, it is impossible to really succinctly define the parameters, or 'goalposts' for the question, hence why I left it open.
 
Uzz said:
Do you want to be like Liverpool in 13/14? Very entertaining fluid and attacking but finish the season without a trophy?
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Thats essentially the question. If - for purposes of discussion - we work on the false assumption that we cant have both, would you rather win the league playing shite, dull, defensive football every week, or finish without a trophy but be entertained every week?

I find it is interesting to see the priorities of supporters. It relates to a discussion I had/saw a while ago in the 'Giggs for manager' thread about the place of romanticism in football, and that why shouldnt we - as fans - embrace the entertainment and romanticism of the game, and that fans seem to act more like accountants than supporters now - looking at the balance sheets and commercial success of the club rather than actually being entertained.
 
Walrus said:
The question is more just meant to be ideological. For the reasons you stated and the fact that it is possible to have both, it is impossible to really succinctly define the parameters, or 'goalposts' for the question, hence why I left it open.
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Ok well if its ideological then you need to consider what is the fundamental aim of football; is it to entertain or to win. To me its to win so you'd have to pick success.
 
The only reason people have been venting about boring football is because we haven't been very successful. The way other teams are playing, we should have been comfortably top of the league right now. If we had been scoring more goals, we would have been successful and more entertaining.

I have no issues with the possession style. People only criticize when we are not able to win games, that too games where we dominate the opposition. As someone rightly said above, success is entertaining.
 
Welllllllllllllllll im not sure if this is a vacuous question or a contextual one. But assuming it's contextual i'd say entertainment at this point in time. What i've experienced under SAF is more than enough in terms of success so seeing good football is more of my priority at this point
 
GBBQ said:
Ok well if its ideological then you need to consider what is the fundamental aim of football; is it to entertain or to win. To me its to win so you'd have to pick success.
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The aim for the players and is definitely to win. But for the club? If we assume their ultimate goal is to make money, then is that better achieved through entertainment or success?
More importantly is for the supporters - do their/our aims have to be the same as the players?
Do fans go to watch a football match, or watch it on the television to be entertained, or to see a team win? And that (for me) is the key question.
Its an interesting question in its own right, in my opinion.
 
Assuming you mean a good level of success, then I'd definitely go for success.

I feel there's a limit to how poor the football can be when a team wins trophies.
There will surely have to be enough entertainment in order to win enough games to win trophies consistently.

Teams that win playing rubbish football don't stay winning for long.
 
Walrus said:
Unexpected success is undoubtedly entertaining. Everyone loves an underdog eg Greece. But if we are talking about United, or another big club (although I posted this in the football forum as I wanted to see what some oppo fans might think as well), I dont think that applies quite so well.
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I think it applies nearly as well. At least that's my experience as a fan of a team that wins a lot. When you're winning consistently, fans are entertained. You may hear the occasional "we're so boring at times", but that is nowhere near the criticism that will come up when a usually winning team plays supposedly entertaining football but is failing to achieve their goals.

It's opposition fans who tend to diminish successful teams achievements by overvaluing the entertainment thing. You see it all the time.
 
Entertainment, at the exception of United all the other teams that I support, in other sports, aren't historically successful but I enjoy watching them every weeks. Success is very nice, very sweet but to me it never last. When the season ends the thrill of success ends too but when you enjoy watching your team play it never stops.
 
Walrus said:
The age old question. Simply put; as a fan, if you had to choose between one of the above - ignoring external issues like CL qualification, club revenue etc - would you rather see the club you support be successful, or to play good, entertaining football every week?

Now lets be clear - I am aware that the two are not mutually exclusive. It is obviously possible to have both, but thats not the question. If given the choice between success on the pitch or entertaining football, which would you choose?

@Damien and other mods, a poll would be greatly appreciated.
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Simple, winning is NOT everything. How you play matters. If you can combine both, win win
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Heh.

Assuming entertainment can be measured by goals scored (which works for me, anyway) I wonder how often teams have been the highest goal-scorers in a league and not won it?

Bit different in cup competitions, where it's easier to shit on a stick yourself to glory. Rafa Benitez has made a career out of it.
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Liverpool?
 
Success, 100%.

As Brad Bellick said, success is entertaining.
 
A mix of both, as always.

But success isn't necessary to enjoy football. We enjoy football because we see examples of skill and flair, and great goals scored. We like the feeling of watching something special.

If football, or sport in general, was all about success then we'd be aswell not watching the games and turning up at the end of season parade none the wiser. We won, after all.
 
Walrus said:
The aim for the players and is definitely to win. But for the club? If we assume their ultimate goal is to make money, then is that better achieved through entertainment or success?
More importantly is for the supporters - do their/our aims have to be the same as the players?
Do fans go to watch a football match, or watch it on the television to be entertained, or to see a team win? And that (for me) is the key question.
Its an interesting question in its own right, in my opinion.
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I still think a winning team is more marketable than an entertaining team so, if forced to choose the board/owners would pick success.
Supporters; again I think the idea of being entertained is great but as people are using Liverpool as the example, the heartbreak of missing out on the league was surely not worth the preceding entertainment. Similarly a team like Spurs who attack but rarely even make top 4, how long is that going to satisfy you as a fan.
 
I started answering this then realised it's a terrible question.
 
Unfortunately, being manager of Manchester United is one of a very few jobs in football (the others being Brazil and maybe Barcelona) where both are a requirement - this is what makes the job so special / challenging.
 
I'm assuming by "success" you mean winning trophies with uninspired, tumescent football. Providing the bare minimum entertainment and action required to achieve the objective.

In this case I would take entertainment. I'd rather enjoy the 90/180 minutes I watch every week than have the satisfaction of superiority when the season ends. Never quite understood the full on vicarious nature of fandom, it afflicts me but I can't say I'm completely at ease with it.
 
Getsme said:
Liverpool?
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Tell you what, I'd give my eye teeth for a season as entertaining as the one that Slippy ruined for them. The ending was brutal but every Liverpool fan I knew absolutely fecking loved that season while it happened. So many amazing victories and brilliant attacking displays. Even against the best teams in the league. I was deeply jealous.
 
Arruda said:
I think it applies nearly as well. At least that's my experience as a fan of a team that wins a lot. When you're winning consistently, fans are entertained. You may hear the occasional "we're so boring at times", but that is nowhere near the criticism that will come up when a usually winning team plays supposedly entertaining football but is failing to achieve their goals.

It's opposition fans who tend to diminish successful teams achievements by overvaluing the entertainment thing. You see it all the time.
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So basically the question we have boiled this sub-debate down to is: is success inherently entertaining?
Again for me, success is entertaining in the short term. i.e. your team wins a trophy - you are happy. But does that trophy keep you happy throughout the year? Is it 'worth it', does the end justify the means?

GBBQ said:
I still think a winning team is more marketable than an entertaining team so, if forced to choose the board/owners would pick success.
Supporters; again I think the idea of being entertained is great but as people are using Liverpool as the example, the heartbreak of missing out on the league was surely not worth the preceding entertainment. Similarly a team like Spurs who attack but rarely even make top 4, how long is that going to satisfy you as a fan.
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You may be right on the marketability point, it was just something I thought about when writing the previous post.
It really does just come down to ones own priorities as a fan. To re-state a point I edited in to one of my previous posts, lets look slightly less at the big picture and drill down into the short term a bit.
On a week by week basis, do you go to Old Trafford, or sit down in front of your TV to be entertained, or to see the team win? What is your objective?
 
Spain mostly won 1-0s and won the WC As opposed to Germany who destroyed Argentina Australia and England 4-0 4-0 and 4-1 ended up not winning anything at that WC. People found/still find Spain boring especially early on.
 
I'd rather the bias be toward entertainment whilst not being a soft touch.

One of the favourite games of yore of many an old bastard like me was the United 3 West Brom 5 of 1978



A hugely entertaining game despite the loss. Now you wouldn't want to lose like that every week but you got your money's worth that day. The fêted Liverpool team of the day, highly successful home and abroad, bored me rigid with their constant backpassing and highly methodical playing style. Sound familiar?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Tell you what, I'd give my eye teeth for a season as entertaining as the one that Slippy ruined for them. The ending was brutal but every Liverpool fan I knew absolutely fecking loved that season while it happened. So many amazing victories and brilliant attacking displays. Even against the best teams in the league. I was deeply jealous.
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The Aguero leage-winning goal was a similar moment for me. I mentioned in the other thread, but even though we happened to be on the losing end of things (not directly, but in terms of the league) that time - the sheer drama, excitement and entertainment value of the end of that season was unmatched. I would go as far as to say that I didnt care that we lost the league, but I was still thoroughly entertained and frankly, loved the way it eventually went down.
 
Walrus said:
The Aguero leage-winning goal was a similar moment for me. I mentioned in the other thread, but even though we happened to be on the losing end of things (not directly, but in terms of the league) that time - the sheer drama, excitement and entertainment value of the end of that season was unmatched. I would go as far as to say that I didnt care that we lost the league, but I was still thoroughly entertained and frankly, loved the way it eventually went down.
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Hmmm... Not sure about that. We weren't great to watch that season, as far as I remember it. Nowhere near Liverpool's 100+ season under Rogers anyway.
 
As a match going fan who spends shit load of money on it, I always thought I would want entertainment. But getting seeing that last minute winner (success) after a drab 0-0 is more entertaining than a 5-5 draw.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hmmm... Not sure about that. We weren't great to watch that season, as far as I remember it. Nowhere near Liverpool's 100+ season under Rogers anyway.
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Not so much referring to the entire season as just the climax there. It is probably a weird/unpopular view on a Manchester United forum, but I was on the edge of my seat practically all day - the highs and then the low, the drama, the excitement. It was one of those "you couldnt write it" moments/days, and I loved it even if we ended up as the losers.
 
Walrus said:
Not so much referring to the entire season as just the climax there. It is probably a weird/unpopular view on a Manchester United forum, but I was on the edge of my seat practically all day - the highs and then the low, the drama, the excitement. It was one of those "you couldnt write it" moments/days, and I loved it even if we ended up as the losers.
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Jaysus. You're an odd one. That was one of the worst days of my life as a United fan. I'm still emotionally scarred. Every time I hear that "Aguerrrrooooo!!!" commentary...

*shudder*
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Jaysus. You're an odd one. That was one of the worst days of my life as a United fan. I'm still emotionally scarred. Every time I hear that "Aguerrrrooooo!!!" commentary...

*shudder*
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:lol:
Its hard to explain exactly how I feel. It was a combination of the obvious disappointment, and the sheer drama and excitement of the situation. I guess I just cant find it in myself to be angry or upset over such a climactic and exciting finalé to the season, and appreciate just how mental it was and how we may never see anything quite like it again.
 
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