I am not a younger fan lol, but Moore has the LCB and Adams & Terry were LCB so not included - Campbell no, I am doing by nationality and not just over last 20 years
Strongest Ever National Team XI
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
I am not a younger fan lol, but Moore has the LCB and Adams & Terry were LCB so not included - Campbell no, I am doing by nationality and not just over last 20 years
The ultimate Holland squad remains a fascinating subject.
Over the years I've noticed the following:
Obviously Cruijff is considered #1 in modern times. After him, it's between Van Hanegem and Van Basten for the #2 spot. Gullit is the fourth, people generaly agree those are the best four. After them it's Koeman, Rijkaard, Rensenbrink, Bergkamp, Kluivert, Rijkaard, whatever, not as obvious as the best four. There are also players like Faas Wilkes (a Dutchman being the main striker at Inter Milan in 1947, try imagine that) or Abe Lenstra.
Wim Jansen is the forgotten hero. Massively underrated, non-spotlight kind of fellow, like Scholes or Luka. Played in 1974 and 1978, while Neeskens, Cruijff and v. Hanegem only played in 1974. Wim Jansen was definitely a better footballer than Neeskens, perhaps Neeskens was the better athlete. But it's almost a bit like choosing Khedira over Modric, where Jansen is Modric obviously. I guess those brilliant penalty goals and playing for Barca with Cruijff created a lot of goodwill for Johan Neeskens.
Jan van Beveren was a better goalkeeper than Edwin van der Sar. According to at least 90% of the people who have seen both play. Maybe it's the nostalgia talking for them, but Jan van Beveren looks like one hell of a goalkeeper. So my guess is they're right.
Where the feck is Rinus Israël? He was injured for the 1974 World Cup, 32 years of age then. But in 1970 he captained Feyenoord. With Van Hanegem, Wim Jansen, Coen Moulijn and Kindvall, they were the first Dutch team in history that won the Europacup 1, Ajax came right after that. Rinus Israël was easily as good a defender was Jaap Stam, tough as nails and with a brilliant long ball. Koeman and even Rijkaard were more actual midfielders, although Rijkaard was very good at the defensive aspects of the game too. But in terms of oldschool centre-halfs it's Jaap Stam, Ruud Krol, Rinus Israël.
The Bergkamp/Robben/Nistelrooy/Kluivert/Van Persie debate. Bergkamp, Kluivert, Robben and RVP, who is better? You'll never get to the bottom of that. And the moment you think you do know the answer, you find out Ruud had the best goal scoring record over all competitions compared to those other four. And then there's players like Giovanni van Bronckhorst, played left back brilliantly in 2008 and 2010, how does he fit in?
Van Hanegem was an insane player. Great tackler, brilliant crooked left foot, excellent header of the ball too. A bit like Strootman+De Jong in one, with Ozil's left foot added to that. So say you're playing with Rijkaard and Van Hanegem in midfield, why the hell would you put Neeskens on top of that? Rijkaard and v. Hanegem are #6 #8, you'd need a #10. And Bergkamp or Robben/RVP are way better players than Neeskens ever was too, so it really doesn't make sense to include him.
Because I really don't know who to choose, and choosing either a defender, midfielder or attacker would change the formation and tactics, I'd go for these players.
If you really want to be a smart-ass, you could put Ruud Gullit at libero/centre-half because he played there in his first years, and I believe also for Chelsea? Then your defense would consist of 4 instead of 3, leaving room upfront for Robben.
Over the years I've noticed the following:
Obviously Cruijff is considered #1 in modern times. After him, it's between Van Hanegem and Van Basten for the #2 spot. Gullit is the fourth, people generaly agree those are the best four. After them it's Koeman, Rijkaard, Rensenbrink, Bergkamp, Kluivert, Rijkaard, whatever, not as obvious as the best four. There are also players like Faas Wilkes (a Dutchman being the main striker at Inter Milan in 1947, try imagine that) or Abe Lenstra.
Wim Jansen is the forgotten hero. Massively underrated, non-spotlight kind of fellow, like Scholes or Luka. Played in 1974 and 1978, while Neeskens, Cruijff and v. Hanegem only played in 1974. Wim Jansen was definitely a better footballer than Neeskens, perhaps Neeskens was the better athlete. But it's almost a bit like choosing Khedira over Modric, where Jansen is Modric obviously. I guess those brilliant penalty goals and playing for Barca with Cruijff created a lot of goodwill for Johan Neeskens.
Jan van Beveren was a better goalkeeper than Edwin van der Sar. According to at least 90% of the people who have seen both play. Maybe it's the nostalgia talking for them, but Jan van Beveren looks like one hell of a goalkeeper. So my guess is they're right.
Where the feck is Rinus Israël? He was injured for the 1974 World Cup, 32 years of age then. But in 1970 he captained Feyenoord. With Van Hanegem, Wim Jansen, Coen Moulijn and Kindvall, they were the first Dutch team in history that won the Europacup 1, Ajax came right after that. Rinus Israël was easily as good a defender was Jaap Stam, tough as nails and with a brilliant long ball. Koeman and even Rijkaard were more actual midfielders, although Rijkaard was very good at the defensive aspects of the game too. But in terms of oldschool centre-halfs it's Jaap Stam, Ruud Krol, Rinus Israël.
The Bergkamp/Robben/Nistelrooy/Kluivert/Van Persie debate. Bergkamp, Kluivert, Robben and RVP, who is better? You'll never get to the bottom of that. And the moment you think you do know the answer, you find out Ruud had the best goal scoring record over all competitions compared to those other four. And then there's players like Giovanni van Bronckhorst, played left back brilliantly in 2008 and 2010, how does he fit in?
Van Hanegem was an insane player. Great tackler, brilliant crooked left foot, excellent header of the ball too. A bit like Strootman+De Jong in one, with Ozil's left foot added to that. So say you're playing with Rijkaard and Van Hanegem in midfield, why the hell would you put Neeskens on top of that? Rijkaard and v. Hanegem are #6 #8, you'd need a #10. And Bergkamp or Robben/RVP are way better players than Neeskens ever was too, so it really doesn't make sense to include him.
Because I really don't know who to choose, and choosing either a defender, midfielder or attacker would change the formation and tactics, I'd go for these players.
If you really want to be a smart-ass, you could put Ruud Gullit at libero/centre-half because he played there in his first years, and I believe also for Chelsea? Then your defense would consist of 4 instead of 3, leaving room upfront for Robben.
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While I like the notion of sticking up for the forgotten heroes, you are talking complete nonsense here and evidence an irrational dislike for Neeskens. For starters, he DID play in both World Cups a basic fact so obvious that it discredits everything else you say, unfortunately.
You are absolutely right about Neeskens being there too in 1978, guess I was too high to notice that when I put his name there. Should've been just Cruijff and Van Hanegem, and I think you know I meant that all along. Point I tried to make still stands, that Wim Jansen really was the player who kept everything ticking while some other big stars like Neeskens, Cruijf and Van Hanegem got more credits and attention.
First of all, how the hell would I have an irrational dislike for Neeksens? I actually adore the man. Watched 'Johan Primero' six weeks ago, brilliant cult film about a man who's hero is Johan Segundo. My avatar at some very well known sites is a still of Neeskens just after the spot-kick vs. Germany, making your claim a bit weird.
Second, I also have a really wannabe-cool collection of footage of Dutch teams playing in the '70's. Some of the big matches are also on youtube I think, like the European Cup finals. Wim Jansen just looks a better player to me based on what I've seen. I've checked some interviews with players and pieces by journalists of that era, and a lot of them seem to agree with me. I just feel that Wim Janssen was more of a Modric or perhaps Daniele de Rossi's level and style of player, whereas Neeskens was a better athlete with a great engine, like Khedira before his injury.
Your point against that claim was that I have an irrational dislike against Neeskens. But I don't. So perhaps you could give some other reasons why it is complete nonsense that Wim Jansen was a better football player than Neeskens?
Well, that sounds better, you just did indeed seem to have an irrational dislike, from belittling his credentials as a few penos and playing for Barca to comparing him to Sammy fecking Khedira. Are you kidding me? He was on a completely different planet to Khedira. He had a knack for being MotM whenever Cruyff wwasn't having his best day. Why? Because if a defence focused on neutralising Cruyff, then Neeskens would hit them. That's not something you would expect from someone like Khedira, you are off the mark massively with that assessment.
That comparison and Modric made no sense to me, the Daniele de Rossi above makes more sense. As I said, I like "cogs", I don't think it's right to just chuck 11 stars together because usually what makes it all gel together is the cogs, which is why I chucked Rensenbrink ahead of Robben and Haan ahead of Stam in my XI. I'm all for appreciating Jansen's influence and role, you do need that sort of player to allow the others to shine. Problem is, I think what he does is largely taken care of by Rijkaard and you don't need two of those. You have the same issue with Bergkamp, I think he was phenomenal, but the moment you have Cruyff there there isn't really any room, or use, or point, to including him.
I think a Dutch XI absolutely has to include the Milan trio + Cruyff + Neeskens + van Hanegem + Krol. Everything else is up for grabs since VDS wasn't as important to them as he was for us, in fairness. That leaves:
---------------------van Basten
XXXXXXX---------------------------------Gullit
-----------------------Cruyff
------van Hanegem---------Neeskens
----------------------Rijkaard
-----Krol----------XXXXXXXXX--------XXXXX
That's where the cogs come in, which is where I chose Rensenbrink (fabulous player, feels wrong to call him a cog but such was his teamwork), Blind and Haan as players who would make it all come together nicely.
Well in fairness to Khedira, he scored and put in a motm performance vs. Barca in 2012, played some very decent matches for Germany too before his injury. I wonder in twenty years from now, how would people rate him after they saw highlights of that 2012 match.
You are right though, about Neeskens and Cruijf working out brilliantly together, and also being very complementary. But Van Hanegem and Jansen playing together were really just as great of a tandem. In that era, Van Hanegem was considered to be the best Dutch player after Cruijff, he was a brilliant player on himself, but playing with Jansen was what made it perfect.
And somehow I just can't get over Bergkamp. Obviously that's my own personal bias and nostalgia, but I remember 4 december 2001, when he had taken a car to Italy. Arsenal played vs. Juventus in the CL, and he set up Ljunberg that night with one of the most brilliant pieces of skill I've seen from him. Or his goal vs. Argentina at World Cup '98, or literally 100 other truly breathtaking moments.
Thinking about it, Bergkamp should be ahead of both Neeskens and Jansen. I know you like your cogs and all, so perhaps we use Jansen as a libero and Neeskens as right back or something. But Spain made it work with Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Fabregas, Xabi and Busquets together in one team. So I don't care if there's no room, Bergkamp has to be in it. But Rensenbrink is a great idea too, beautiful player. Has a bit of mystique about him too, because he was born in Amsterdam, very talented, but he didn't play for the legendary Ajax side.
Im not biased but its defiantly Holland or Brazil :P
VDS
Stam - Rijkaard - F. Boer
Koeman
Gullit - Davids
Robben - Cruyff - Overmars
Van Basten
subs (this list is ridiculous); Kluivert, Krol, Hanegem, Van Breukelen (GK), Reiziger, Gio, Seedorf
Altough Italia seems quite nice also with Buffon, Del Piero, Nesta, Pirlo, Balotelli HAHAHAStam - Rijkaard - F. Boer
Koeman
Gullit - Davids
Robben - Cruyff - Overmars
Van Basten
subs (this list is ridiculous); Kluivert, Krol, Hanegem, Van Breukelen (GK), Reiziger, Gio, Seedorf
He's on there: WG-Jones. Many of his caps came when the side featured amateurs and "professionals" (journeyman paid to represent the US) and when he was one of the dependable players (and most often available logistically). He was a tidy winger type that would put in a defensive shift as well, especially later in his career. Good player but with the ones that have developed over the last decade, he's sliding down the rankings IMO.
Dutch XI
--------------VdS----------------
---F de Boer-Stam--R Koeman--
------------Rijkaard-----------
--Robben-Bergkamp--Cruyff---
---Gullit----V Basten--Neeskens-
--------------VdS----------------
---F de Boer-Stam--R Koeman--
------------Rijkaard-----------
--Robben-Bergkamp--Cruyff---
---Gullit----V Basten--Neeskens-
What? And you are massively underrating Neeskens.
EDIT: you are already corrected here, sorry
I know the feeling mate but once Cruyff is in there Bergkamp simply shouldn't be. I suppose you could go with Cruyff wide left to accommodate Bergkamp, but that also affects the midfield... feck it, considering how unbalanced some of these teams are, knock yourself out You happy now?
yeah, didn't remember anyonelse better, lol