Souness was incredible, but the fact that Gerrard is generally considered our second greatest player, says a lot about his ability as well.
Souness was the dominant midfielder of that period, that eras Keane just more successful on the continent.
Steven Gerrard
- Thread starter antihenry
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Souness was incredible, but the fact that Gerrard is generally considered our second greatest player, says a lot about his ability as well.
Souness was the dominant midfielder of that period, that eras Keane just more successful on the continent.
Bit of a cheap dig.
Not meant as a cheap dig, more in response to people who say Gerrard is nowhere near Keane or the likes, yet he can be compared to a similar player in Souness who won 3 European cups in the most successful period in the history of the club.
I loathe Gerrard but it's not really hard to see that he is a great player and Liverpool legend is it? If I was a Liverpool fan I'd probably rank him atleast as a Scholes equal.
I'd have Scholes over him but it's not that clear cut IMO. The fact that Gerrard has had this late resurgence in form this season adds to his case.
I would effing wish he keeps kissing those cameras at Old Traffird though. He must've kissed half of the cameras on our ground, the twat.
I'd have Scholes over him but it's not that clear cut IMO. The fact that Gerrard has had this late resurgence in form this season adds to his case.
I would effing wish he keeps kissing those cameras at Old Traffird though. He must've kissed half of the cameras on our ground, the twat.
Ok fair enough. Gerrard obviously can be compared to both. He's been a monster for you, and is having a dream season so far.
Situations change for players, saying player X is better because he had that many goals to me is lazy. If Gareth Bale would score maybe 12 goals a season at Palace, does that make him any better than the Bale scoring 20 + at Tottenham or Madrid. For me no, the calibre of players he is around affects him. That is why despite the fact he has had a better season there is no way I would say Henderson is a better footballer than Wilshere. Don't let form sway your opinion and systems cloud your judgement of a player's ability. It's the reason i'm not as high on Diego Costa as everyone else and I wouldn't pay 40 million for him in a million years.
Let's talk ability not situations. Ability wise Scholes was a better player than Gerrard (tactically and technically). Gerrard has had such a long career at the top and that's isn't by accident, I thought he was passed it but he has done well in this deeper role, i'm not sure how much of the praise should go to Rodgers and the system. The World Cup will tell me more. Despite that he has been a very good player. I can't judge Keane because his peak was after I could really judge and analyse players. I can't find a lot of full matches for him.
How many here are confident they can spot a young upcoming star in Holland/Portugal/France etc. and comment on whether he is the real deal or not. How many knew Modric would come good at Real once he got the chance to play. Systems is the reason why for me ability wise I would put Suarez and Van Persie as equal footballer's despite what Suarez is doing. Despite how good a player is his situation can help or hinder him. Watching player's is the only way to truly gauge how good they are. Stat's are helpful but for me not anything people should treat as gospel.
I'm going to do a thread on how we rate players soon just to get the opinions of the caf maybe in Summer.
p.s don't rule out a player because he isn't playing for a particular manager. In that situation you are letting the manager tell you how good he is. Several reasons can dictate that. Look at the talent yourself and form an opinion.
Let's talk ability not situations. Ability wise Scholes was a better player than Gerrard (tactically and technically). Gerrard has had such a long career at the top and that's isn't by accident, I thought he was passed it but he has done well in this deeper role, i'm not sure how much of the praise should go to Rodgers and the system. The World Cup will tell me more. Despite that he has been a very good player. I can't judge Keane because his peak was after I could really judge and analyse players. I can't find a lot of full matches for him.
How many here are confident they can spot a young upcoming star in Holland/Portugal/France etc. and comment on whether he is the real deal or not. How many knew Modric would come good at Real once he got the chance to play. Systems is the reason why for me ability wise I would put Suarez and Van Persie as equal footballer's despite what Suarez is doing. Despite how good a player is his situation can help or hinder him. Watching player's is the only way to truly gauge how good they are. Stat's are helpful but for me not anything people should treat as gospel.
I'm going to do a thread on how we rate players soon just to get the opinions of the caf maybe in Summer.
p.s don't rule out a player because he isn't playing for a particular manager. In that situation you are letting the manager tell you how good he is. Several reasons can dictate that. Look at the talent yourself and form an opinion.
Yeah it's insane but that's football I suppose. To be fair its not just this season, the caf has never given Gerrard the credit he deserves.
But that's the case with all football fans. I'm equally sure RAWK would have some pretty underwhelming words about Scholes.
Maybe, but I reckon most would admit Scholes was an excellent player. But yes club rivalry some would always mean some begrudge that a little as United fans would about Gerrard.
If you were going to pick one player for one CL final, you'd pick Gerrard. I'd pick him now even.
He's an inspirational leader, a wonderful player and an absolute winner. His performance in Istanbul is one of the greatest of all time, across the entire field of sport.
Nothing but respect. He deserves the league.
He's an inspirational leader, a wonderful player and an absolute winner. His performance in Istanbul is one of the greatest of all time, across the entire field of sport.
Nothing but respect. He deserves the league.
Pretty certain I'd pick Maradona.
Sounds like you're describing John Terry
An absolute winner? He's not won all that much for an "absolute winner". I can understand why an Arsenal fan would look upon him as such, though. (lol)
Sounds like you're describing John Terry
An absolute winner? He's not won all that much for an "absolute winner". I can understand why an Arsenal fan would look upon him as such, though. (lol)
Not done bad at all:
Champions League, two FA Cups, three League Cups and the UEFA Cup
That's a pretty meagre haul if he is as talented as you all believe he is, that's basically three major trophies.
Depends on the valuation of a major trophy, sure some carry more prestige but 7 medals given for a decent spell of his career he has played in teams not good enough to challenge for the title I don't think is bad.
I don't think it's a major haul of silverware but to say he hasn't won much I don't agree with, especially as he has played in some sub-standard sides.
We can debate this forever. But which two would make the best cm pairing?
Keane--Scholes?
Keane--Gerrard?
Vieira--Scholes?
Vieira--Keane?
Keane--Scholes?
Keane--Gerrard?
Vieira--Scholes?
Vieira--Keane?
Has he really though? Played in substandard sides? At times there were good enough players around him. I'd imagine if Keane and not Gerrard was in your Alonso Torres Mascherano team you'd have added silverware to the cabinet.
Maradona didn't win that much domestically either considering how good he was. No matter who you are if your career isn't at about 5/6 clubs in world football you'll never have an extensively trophy haul by retirement.
Liverpool aren't exactly Napoli are they?
I don't think you need to play for 5/6 clubs to have a good trophy haul. Look at the guys at Madrid past and present, Barcelona, Man United, Chelsea's current players.
They've been the third/fourth biggest budget side in the country for most of Gerrard's career.
Napoli would be fourth/fifth behind Juventus, Milan, Inter and sometimes Roma when Maradona was there no?
Not to big a difference.
Not to mention other random sides were winning Serie A during the 80's (Sampdoria, Verona) where as the PL's been a closed shop for the duration of Gerrard's career with only United, Arsenal and the oil clubs winning it.
I think we regularly just came up against teams that were better than us. He pretty much dragged us to 2005 Champions League glory and SAME IN 2006 for the FA cup.
I more meant at any one time there's about 5 or 6 clubs in world football where you're realistically going to retire having won a lot of stuff.
Over the last 10 years it's been Barcelona, Man Utd, Chelsea, Inter and Bayern as the only teams to win regular league titles at the big 4 leagues and win a Champions League too.
We can debate this forever. But which two would make the best cm pairing?
Keane--Scholes?
Keane--Gerrard?
Vieira--Scholes?
Vieira--Keane?
Keane-Davids
You mean in the 08/09 season when Gerrard was our best player and top scorer?
In a midfield of Alonso and Mascherano you needed a Gerrard to provide that extra bit of quality in the final third, i don't see how having Keane would have helped us that season, if anything a 20 year old Ryan Giggs was what we needed that season, not a Keane.
Bit tenuous. Tom Finney won bugger all in his career and how many "major trophies" did Bryan Robson win during his best years?
He was? I always felt Alonso was the key player for that side.
Maradona had a shit club trophy haul, relative to his ability.
Not that I'm comparing Maradona to Gerrard. No. God, no.
But, still, trophies aren't always a perfect indicator of a player's ability. Batistuta, Totti (1st names that come to mind for some reason) have a poor trophy haul.
Many people seem to have little appreciation of how completely Paul Scholes controlled a game from central midfield.
And that's just the second half of his career, probably the less impressive half.
And that's just the second half of his career, probably the less impressive half.
Alonso was key, but Gerrard was just as good.
Both were at the top of their game albeit in different roles, so i guess its hard to say who was definitively better.
I don't think so i think Scholes has been getting a lot of attention recent years especially since the domination of tiki taka, and peoples whole obsession with the philosophy.After the likes of Xavi and Iniesta have come out and praise him i think people generally appreciate him for the world class player he was, its probably Gerrard who gets underrated now for me.
As you say whats so impressive about him is that he initially broke through as a AM, one of the enduring memories of the 90's and my childhood is watching United and Liverpool games, and my Dad and Uncle always saying above any other United player we should watch out for Scholes, even way back then in 97.
I definitely agree with this, I don't remember him being this universally rated until all the players started coming out with their quotes. His move to deep lying playmaker definitely helped too, but George Best was calling him England's best player back in 2004. I doubt as many fans would have agreed. Perception definitely affects peoples opinions if players. He may even be slightly overrated on here now.
Agreed.
Most people of my generation that I know who support United put Scholes only second to Ronaldo in their list of favourites or bests. I think the others who saw a lot more of Keane in the late 90s, those who saw Robson at his best and those who had the privilege of seeing the players from the mid-late 60s will have differing opinions but it certainly didn't take a few words from Xavi and Iniesta for me to form the opinion that Scholes was one of the best of his generation.
I'll never forget the way he took the piss out of Newcastle (who weren't a bad side) in 2003. He was playing ping-pong that day, absolutely played them off the park on his own and managed to whack in the coolest of hat-tricks.
He certainly isn't overrated for me. There has to be a correlation with a regressing Scholes from say 2010 or even 2009 and United becoming a team less entertaining to watch.
I'll never forget the way he took the piss out of Newcastle (who weren't a bad side) in 2003. He was playing ping-pong that day, absolutely played them off the park on his own and managed to whack in the coolest of hat-tricks.
He certainly isn't overrated for me. There has to be a correlation with a regressing Scholes from say 2010 or even 2009 and United becoming a team less entertaining to watch.
Oh look, United fans and Liverpool fans arguing about which of their respective club legends was better. Whats next, which set of players has the combined longest member, if you were to stitch them all together? feck sake.
Gerrard will never have the longevity that Scholes had, and I think he may decline in the coming season or two. You're lucky (Liverpool) in that this past stretch of games he hasn't been hurt, as that is usually the case.
My opinion, Scholes is one of the best midfielders ever. Even without your liverpool glasses on you should be able to see that. Look how the current Barca players we all rave about idolize him.
Gerrard will never have the longevity that Scholes had, and I think he may decline in the coming season or two. You're lucky (Liverpool) in that this past stretch of games he hasn't been hurt, as that is usually the case.
My opinion, Scholes is one of the best midfielders ever. Even without your liverpool glasses on you should be able to see that. Look how the current Barca players we all rave about idolize him.
Can't believe some of the stuff in this thread. I don't like Gerrard either, but that is just because he plays for Liverpool. It's not like hes a bigger c*nt than any other footballer.
But to claim hes not a good footballer? Come on, that is the kind of ridiculous shit we would read on RAWK and laugh at. Have we turned into RAWK? Gerrard is objectively one of the finest midfielders of this generation. Actually if i could have a pick from any midfielder in the PL the last 10-15 years, i would only pick Scholes ahead of him. "Being worse than Scholes" is nothing to be embarrassed about.
He is also part of a dying breed of footballers who stay their whole careers in one club. He stayed with them for years when they were shit, and for that i think he deserves praise.
Some part of me, actually thinks that Gerrard deserves that PL medal. Though i find their fans unbearable, i still have a lot more respect for Liverpool than i have for the blue mercenaries.
Imagine if Liverpool won the league this year, and we managed to claw ourselves back up next year to battle them for the league title. Now that would be something
But to claim hes not a good footballer? Come on, that is the kind of ridiculous shit we would read on RAWK and laugh at. Have we turned into RAWK? Gerrard is objectively one of the finest midfielders of this generation. Actually if i could have a pick from any midfielder in the PL the last 10-15 years, i would only pick Scholes ahead of him. "Being worse than Scholes" is nothing to be embarrassed about.
He is also part of a dying breed of footballers who stay their whole careers in one club. He stayed with them for years when they were shit, and for that i think he deserves praise.
Some part of me, actually thinks that Gerrard deserves that PL medal. Though i find their fans unbearable, i still have a lot more respect for Liverpool than i have for the blue mercenaries.
Imagine if Liverpool won the league this year, and we managed to claw ourselves back up next year to battle them for the league title. Now that would be something
Eh? I bet that sounded better in your head.
Except its debatable as to how he has ended up finishing his career at Liverpool. He would be at Chelsea right now if he never chickened out over those death threats from the Liverpool fans in '05.
Source?
Those were never confirmed were they ? Even so, he could stayed and played like shit for Liverpool but he didn't, he's always tried his best for them.
I think Gerrard has been world class since the Villa game. His form since then has been some of the best in his career. I think he's the reason for our title push. I don't think it's coincidence that since his form has hit a world class level we've gone on as a team and remained unbeaten. While people will focus on Suarez and Sturridge as both of them grab the goals (and are also undoubtedly top class), Gerrard for me is the catalyst behind our title push. When you read back through some of the things being said in this thread it really is incredible how he has changed his game. People were hoping he'd play in CM for many more years. Well I do too. 90% pass accuracy, 4 interceptions, won every tackle he attempted and an assist vs the best team in the country. The man is incredible.
He's the the most important player we've ever had.
90% pass accuracy, 4 interceptions, won every tackle he attempted and an assist vs the best team in the country. The man is incredible.He's the the most important player we've ever had.