How you are deploying Dzajic here is exactly how he used to play for Yugoslavia.
Stars and Reserves Draft R1: GodShaveTheQueen vs Gio - Finished 9 : 11
- Thread starter Enigma_87
- Start date
Make of that what you will
Heyy if your argument is, feck the tactics and the teams here, lets take them out of the equation because they faced earlier in different setups and my man stopped yours as per anecdotes, more power to you.
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Its funny, only the team with the less obvious formation gets questioned. Feels like only my team has been discussed so far. (Fine by me, as long as people are kind enough to read the tactic in place).
JOAN SEGARRA
Known as the Great Captain, Segarra (Barcelona, 1927 - Taradell, Barcelona, 2008) was one of the moast charismatic players in the history of FC Barcelona
The legendary defender was part of the Barça of the Five Cups in the 1950s and is one of the players who has made most appearances for the Club.
Segarra was a true gentleman on the pitch, and his noble and very proper attitude won him the admiration of respect of the entire footballing world. He was a versatile player, although his natural positions were at half back or left back. He was brave and dedicated and would never stop yelling encouragement to his team mates. He had the perfect physical shape, tremendous skills, and was a solid marker. Although he played at the back, he also had a fine shot and scored several decisive goals.
From the time he surpassed Torralba in 1963 until Rexach surpassed him in 1979, Segarra was the Club’s all-time leader in games played. He received a well-deserved tribute at the Camp Nou on September 9, 1964. During his career, the great Madridista Paco Gento named Segarra in his 'Ultimate XI' - alongside 9 current or ex Real Madrid stars.
After retiring, the ‘Great Captain’ stayed on at Barça as a youth team coach and in the 1979-80 season he was assistant first team coach to Helenio Herrera.
Career
- Seasons at the club: 1949-64
- Games played: 577
- Goals: 32
- 4 Leagues (1951/52, 52/53, 58/59 and 59/60)
- 1 Latin Cup (1952)
- 2 Fairs Cups (1957/58 and 59/60)
- 6 Spanish Cups (1950/51, 51/52, 52/53, 56/57, 58/59 and 62/63)
- 2 Eva Duarte Cups (1951/52 and 52/53)
I like Hidegkuti here
Can‘t think of many false 9‘s who are also great in the air, which makes him a nice addition to the wingers and a different threat to Sivori
Can‘t think of many false 9‘s who are also great in the air, which makes him a nice addition to the wingers and a different threat to Sivori
Oh look...
To be fair, you're playing a balls-out 4-2-4 - a formation which hasn't been used successfully in about half a century. Fair dues for trying it, but I think it's suicidal for a few reasons:
- Only six players (at most) behind the ball on transitions and when we build up the play through the midfield. Most modern teams get 8-10 in behind the all to provide some resistance. Playing with fewer than this is asking for trouble.
- The Ballon D'Or winning maestro Rivera being allowed to run amock.
- You will find it hugely difficult - if not impossible - to build up play through midfield and into the feet of your front four. It's more likely that you will have to go direct which will suit our defenders so much more. And then we have extra bodies in the midfield area for the second ball to begin the attack again.
- Instructing your wide attackers to come inside and further clutter the central area - they need to be as wide as possible rather than narrow. It is easier to defend the smaller space that will be created as a result of your wide men coming inside. Dzajic and Sivori should be kept apart rather than bumping into each other in the same channel trying to do the same thing.
- The partnership of Sivori and Hidegkuti is less than optimal. Two great players, but would prefer some sort of focal point to work with as they always had during their careers (see Charles/Kocsis).
So who all are your 8 to 10 players? You are counting Gento/Savicevic/Sanchez there?
Unlike you, I'll be fair and give you Rivera there as I have seen him drop deep/intercept and run for counters. But that still makes it 6.5 at a stretch. How is that too different to mine?
Becuase its 4-2-4 and not 4-2-3-1? Have no response if that is the argument.
Are you saying its odd that he has 3 around him here and not 4? Come on mate, both you and me know you play a 3-2-5 here and you lose the game. You lost one with fecking Thuram/Krol/Di Stefano/Zico etc if I remember correctly. I have humble Azpil and Ferri who would be ripped apart in minutes in a back 3 no matter how good they are
The next best thing is to surround him with attackers capable of contributing in multiple areas and all of whom are prolific scorers.
With Hidegkuti, it was about leaving the defense and midfield confused as feck as to what to do with him and those running around. You cant deny I provide him a similar platform here even though with a player less.
He was never a proper 10 though to be honest as you mention. He was very close to a false 9. I think that is similar to his role here. You dont see too many proper 10's score as many goals as him
You misunderstand me. I never mentioned a back 3
The only point we were discussing was whether Hidegkuti's peak was False 9 or #10. He has scored 39 goals across 69 matches, so I reckon playing him as F9 ain't really that off his capability. Also I believe he was a forward before Magyars tactical change.
But isnt that how Dzajic played for Yugoslavia in your own words? Guess he must have been an utter failure for the NT.
You misunderstand me. I never mentioned a back 3
The only point we were discussing was whether Hidegkuti's peak was False 9 or #10. He has scored 39 goals across 69 matches, so I reckon playing him as F9 ain't really that off his capability. Also I believe he was a forward before Magyars tactical change.
Well, you did mention Hidegkuti played his best with 4 in front of him. How else am I supposed to lineup? 2-3-5? Sorry, I missed that, but somehow I feel that would have been worse
I'll let you watch the England 3-6 game highlights. Let me know what you think. I'll not argue after that since you will have watched the same game I did and if we dont agree after that, we probably never will about his capability at playing a false 9
Peace and Love
There is a difference between 4-2-4 and 4-2-3-1, both in system and in personnel. One of the advantages of the 4-2-3-1 is that it provides an extra line to move the ball in and get the trio behind the striker into dangerous positions. It presents better angles for building up play. That should be critical here in overloading your midfield two. I note you said that your attack would chase the midfielders back, but their starting position isn't much use for doing that and the ball moves faster than anybody can run back. It also offers a solid shape to break down, which means at least one of the teams here looks reasonably hard to break down off the ball.
I won't present my three behind the striker as being famous for their hard work off the ball. But clearly they offer more because we have a 10 in the hole, who was quite adept at dropping back in to help out for Milan and Italy - which is vastly different from a 9.5 in Sivori/Hidegkuti play right up top. Similarly, Savicevic is playing deeper than Hamrin, because he is more of a midfielder than an out-and-out winger, and played as part of a midfield four for Capello's Milan. So in his position on the park he will offer more defensive resistance than your equivalent. These might sound like nuances, but collectively they add up to a clear difference in off-the-ball resistance. And ultimately your midfield two look marooned, as good as they are individually, in both how they build up play and how they defend when we have it.
The problem is you expect both Sivori/Hidegkuti to sit up top like your average 4-2-4. I cant force you to give them their due credit.
Well, you did mention Hidegkuti played his best with 4 in front of him. How else am I supposed to lineup? 2-3-5? Sorry, I missed that, but somehow I feel that would have been worse
I'll let you watch the England 3-6 game highlights. Let me know what you think. I'll not argue after that since you will have watched the same game I did and if we dont agree after that, we probably never will about his capability at playing a false 9
Always better to post a video player x vs team y
Each team has its pros and cons.
GSTQ
- No pure strikers and strong presence in the penalty area
+ On the other hand, Sivori and Hidegkuti are pretty dynamic and there will be always one of them close to the central midfielders
= The voters have to decide if they believe or not in this partnership
= And the question should be more general 'Who is the most likely to score goals?'. Part of the answer lies in the stats of the diverse offensive players. Another part is to understand in which context they scored these goals
In case you haven't watched this video!
GSTQ
- No pure strikers and strong presence in the penalty area
+ On the other hand, Sivori and Hidegkuti are pretty dynamic and there will be always one of them close to the central midfielders
= The voters have to decide if they believe or not in this partnership
= And the question should be more general 'Who is the most likely to score goals?'. Part of the answer lies in the stats of the diverse offensive players. Another part is to understand in which context they scored these goals
In case you haven't watched this video!
I hope the other players and aspects of this game will be discussed too
I'm with you let's keep it civil and love each other.
@Gio a bit about Savicevic and when do you think he reached his peak. Zvezda or early Milan version?
Definitely Zvezda for me. He was able to occasionally put a great performance and definitely in the CL came his finest hours for Milan, but for Zvezda he was much more consistent and produced magic on more consistent basis.
Had issues adjusting to Italy as well and also tactically since it was quite different to the organization he had at Zvezda.
Thanks, I think I have watched this. Not recently but before.
The more you go ahead in the video, the more he resembles Puskas for me.
The best part of course was not that. The best part was the number of times he helped out off the ball getting stuck in, making tackles etc.
Wow, the discussion sounds uncivil? Was just trying to be competitive
It's civil, I am joking. Like it so far, it was the best match-up of the first round for me anyway.
And it lived to it's potential so far.
Agree with you, just would like to see @Gio thinking about it.
This is Zvezda Savicevic btw.
Don't mind GSTQ, I am leaning towards you atm
Not at all. Been a long time Savicevic appreciator myself. Although like him a lot centrally and not outwide.
Watched a few of his national team games last week before making my LB pick. Impressive stuff there as well. Was good to watch Stojkovic after a long while as well in them.
Yeah, he was a special player, although in full flow when you give him freedom to roam and devastating on the counter (that Barca final for example)
Unplayable on his day, uninterested on another.
First choices at Milan were Gullit, Van Basten, Papin + the great Rijkaard. Us from balkan, sometimes main roles sometimes just passengers. Savicevic was not alright with it and he often told me: "Boban, my friend...this guys are shit and us....where are we?"
One day he sits next to me in the locker room without saying anything so i asked, "Whats up?" he told me "dont ask" and when i went out to train he was running circles as slowest as possible.
Capello gathered all the players but Dejo just ran past us, dead cold like there is nobody there. Soon after that Capello disbanded the group and asked me whats happening with Dejo, i said he is probably injured or something. Then he asked Dejo to join us but he didnt give a feck and just continued to ran circles in protest, the whole thing was a circus. After i finally dragged Savicevic to Capello and how Dejo only knew to say Ciao in italian i had to translate.
Discussion was started with Savicevic:
"Tell him he is a donkey and he doesnt understand shit. And that im not injured and that he wont tell me what to do. He can tell his ugly wife what to do but not me"
Boban translated: "He doesnt feel good..."
Capello screamed that he knows Dejo is cursing him and in the same time Dejo was screaming that he translates word for word. As those two screamed i went with my business. Soon Dejo leaved as well and Capello moved training to another pitch.
Everyone was in shock except me as i witnessed similar situation few years earlier when he did similar stuff to Ivica Osim - "either i play or im leaving..."
One day he sits next to me in the locker room without saying anything so i asked, "Whats up?" he told me "dont ask" and when i went out to train he was running circles as slowest as possible.
Capello gathered all the players but Dejo just ran past us, dead cold like there is nobody there. Soon after that Capello disbanded the group and asked me whats happening with Dejo, i said he is probably injured or something. Then he asked Dejo to join us but he didnt give a feck and just continued to ran circles in protest, the whole thing was a circus. After i finally dragged Savicevic to Capello and how Dejo only knew to say Ciao in italian i had to translate.
Discussion was started with Savicevic:
"Tell him he is a donkey and he doesnt understand shit. And that im not injured and that he wont tell me what to do. He can tell his ugly wife what to do but not me"
Boban translated: "He doesnt feel good..."
Capello screamed that he knows Dejo is cursing him and in the same time Dejo was screaming that he translates word for word. As those two screamed i went with my business. Soon Dejo leaved as well and Capello moved training to another pitch.
Everyone was in shock except me as i witnessed similar situation few years earlier when he did similar stuff to Ivica Osim - "either i play or im leaving..."
Yeah can't disagree with any of that.
Only argument I can offer is I have probably the best defensive left back of the modern era tracking him. Someone who has contained the very best of the era outwide and of course an obvious GOAT
Agree with Enigma that he hit his most sustained top form at Zvedza. Like most of that incredible generation, their best football was in the red and white stripes. Loved him next to Stojkovic which is part of the reason I paired him with Rivera here (and a little surprised Piksi didn't make the cut for this draft, albeit the 10 spot is competitive).
Gave a fair lesson to United in 1991.
For Dejan, Milan was patchier, particularly under a rigid manager like Capello, and he reserved some of his finer performances for European nights, such as the 1994 dream team final as an obvious example. Thought he was excellent the following season though in 1994/95.
Ok, I call it a controversial draw. Do continue.
Time to hit the bed. I'll leave with this compilation of Sivori's goals at Juventus.
You see his versatility and what is expected of him in full flow. Scores from inside/outside the box, scores with headers, drifts out left, sometimes right and of course runs from deep naturally.
Expected his Puskas comparision to sell well. Hopefully more people who have not yet commented chip in tomorrow.
You see his versatility and what is expected of him in full flow. Scores from inside/outside the box, scores with headers, drifts out left, sometimes right and of course runs from deep naturally.
Expected his Puskas comparision to sell well. Hopefully more people who have not yet commented chip in tomorrow.
The way i remember Savicevic at Milan was that once he and Capello had improved their relationship and Savicevic had come to terms with the different tactical approach and become a starter, it wasn't long before his injury proneness more or less ended his career. Just that short peak of 94/95 and 95/96 with them before he was hardly seen again. The best players of that Red Star team of the late80s/early90s had really bad luck with injuries.
Speaking of goals, the best goalscorer on the park is this man:
Worth a watch if only for the variety of ways he buries crosses, like some modern day Arsenio Erico. He'll love getting on the end of Gento's deliveries.
Worth a watch if only for the variety of ways he buries crosses, like some modern day Arsenio Erico. He'll love getting on the end of Gento's deliveries.
Both teams are well drilled, went for gio because I think a well drilled 4231 beats a well drilled 424