Stars and Reserves Draft R1: EAP/Indy/OneNil vs Physiocrat - Finished - 7 : 10

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .
@Synco I see Overath as a No.8 (see Gerrard discussions in main thread), a midfield to attack player. I have watched views of him earlier and didn't really find him with defensive workrate. Anyways happy to be proved wrong on this.

@Physiocrat The midfield your team is facing is against you in numbers. Plus if you count defensive ability, I'd have Blanchflower and Cambiasso as the best two on pitch followed by Senna and then Overath/Neves. As a sole DM confronted by Kaka/Brady, I still see Senna struggling.
 
@Synco I see Overath as a No.8 (see Gerrard discussions in main thread), a midfield to attack player. I have watched views of him earlier and didn't really find him with defensive workrate. Anyways happy to be proved wrong on this.
Yes, no.8 seems apt. I thought about changing one sentence in that post into "more of an organiser than an attacking player" (although he did both, of course), which I should have done. Like Netzer, he always looked to receive the ball deep to start the attacking movement. As for his workrate, the word "perma-angry" would describe his attitude well, he ran his socks off to help the team, took hits and could also dish out.

I generally find it difficult to translate these historical roles into contemporary ones, this kind of main playmaker doesn't exist in the same way anymore. In today's football I can imagine him to be an all-action playmaking #8, perhaps roughly similar to Modric.


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Going to let Edgar argue and won't post more.

This is the broad template we used to create our team



Blanchflower playing the Pirlo role - Main creator in midfield

Neves playing the Ambrosini role - Tactically disciplined and helping out in midfield

Cambiasso playing the Gattuso role - b2b player and hard tackler

Brady playing the role of Rui Costa - coming deep and providing playmaking abilities

Christmas-tree-attack.png

Essentially the team is set up to utilize the pace of Kaka and the finishing ability of Seeler.


Thanks for that, that makes sense although EAP indicated on Lizarazu or Sagnol would move forward at once. I now understand this line-up better but I do think it is rather defensive (especially with only one full-back moving forward in attack) and very much relies on the magic from the front three who are up against a very solid defence. Not mentioned so far is Tassotti, part of the impregnable Milan defence under Sacchi and Liverpool legend Emlyn Hughes. Crespo, Raul, Barnes and Finney have far more goals in them than Kaka, Seeler and Brady. Kaka only has two seasons when he approaches 1 in 2. Raul and Crespo easily broke that at their peak and so did Finney for three consecutive seasons.

@Synco I see Overath as a No.8 (see Gerrard discussions in main thread), a midfield to attack player. I have watched views of him earlier and didn't really find him with defensive workrate. Anyways happy to be proved wrong on this.

Quotes obviously have no effect on you then.

@Physiocrat The midfield your team is facing is against you in numbers. Plus if you count defensive ability, I'd have Blanchflower and Cambiasso as the best two on pitch followed by Senna and then Overath/Neves. As a sole DM confronted by Kaka/Brady, I still see Senna struggling.

Did you think that Veron and Butt worked as a midfield two?

To your attack, so Kaka, Brady, Seeler and a full-back attacks with possibly a runner from midfield. I defend with two banks of four with Raul dropping into an AMish sort of position. It's not as if the midfield will be wide open to pass through - Barnes is perfectly adept (also Finney but there's less footage to work with there) at coming more narrowly cut of some passing options. Let's suppose you have more of the ball (in the Champions League Final in '09 Barca (433) has 52% possession to Utd's 48% (4411)) if Seeler is kept quiet, a big ask but the intelligence of Olsen and the physicality of Collovati are a great combination to do this, you have relatively little goal threat.

When I have the ball my wingers are hardly static and can come inside and outside whenever they need to with Raul dropping in the hole. The whole 3 beats 2 is completely overblown and ignores the specific system and players to hand.

@Synco The Modric comparison with Overath is a very good one. The main difference I think is Overath is more a genuine playmaker where Modric works alongside someone else and shares such duties.
 
The whole 3 beats 2 is completely overblown and ignores the specific system and players to hand.

Don't think so.

You have advantage in wings having 2 dedicated wingers. On the other hand those 2 players are in midfield in my team giving me advantage in another area of the field. Always the case when 2 different formations face each other.

Point being, I have exceptional set of fullbacks who will face up to your wingers. Both having proven defensive solidity and balanced attacking output at top levels. On other hand, my 2 AM's face Senna (and Overath).

When you match up one team's strength against other's weakness, I feel it is favourable to me.
 
Don't think so.

You have advantage in wings having 2 dedicated wingers. On the other hand those 2 players are in midfield in my team giving me advantage in another area of the field. Always the case when 2 different formations face each other.

Do you mean you'll have more of the ball then?
 
Like both teams and struggling to vote, will carry on watching the discussions before placing any vote
 
I'd assume so. Your team will be similar to United's classic 4-4-2. Though not a counter attacking team who'll sit deep...but still your strength will be on the counter. I will have bulk possession.

But as stated before Barca in the Champions League final in '09 had 52% to United's 48%. That's not much of a difference possession wise and I have much more goals in me.

If I was to compare it to a Utd side it would be the early 2000s side with Beckham replaced with Nani esque figure with Veron alongside Butt. It isn't the 93/94 100mph side.
 
Have to dispute that.

Seeler is by a long stretch the best goalscorer on the pitch.

Seeler is the best striker no question but then there's Kaka who didn't make 1 in 2 in his best goal scoring seasons. Brady scored barely anything. I have two better than 1 in 2 strikers plus Finney who achieved that in his best three seasons. If Seeler is stopped you have relatively little goal threat in comparison to me.
 


Danny Blanchflower all touch video


Seems a tidy passer with a decent engine and dribbling as well as defensively solid. I don't think though he demonstrates the range of passing you'd want in a Christmas tree. On this evidence he's no Scholes or Pirlo. Now this may not be at his peak but I think I'm being fair on this video alone.
 
Here's from Indnyc:



Now Brady looks a quality player there. Tenacious, good engine, an eye for a pass and a strong dribbler. I just reckon you could have afforded to play him in Cambiasso's role and put someone else with Kaka behind Seeler. Someone say like Florian Albert. It would have given you much more going forward whilst losing little defensively
 
Seems a tidy passer with a decent engine and dribbling as well as defensively solid. I don't think though he demonstrates the range of passing you'd want in a Christmas tree. On this evidence he's no Scholes or Pirlo. Now this may not be at his peak but I think I'm being fair on this video alone.

You're underrating Blanchflower. Here are some old quotes from resident fans about Blanchflower.

Annahnomoss said:
"Passing range of old Scholes but the legs of the young one - with brilliant defensive skills instead of that monster of a shot Scholes carried around in his pocket for appropriate occasions."

If we're making a Keane/Scholes comparison, it's pretty clear that Keane and Mackay are cut from the same cloth while Scholes and Blanchflower have the same unrivalled playmaking ability.
 
Now Brady looks a quality player there. Tenacious, good engine, an eye for a pass and a strong dribbler. I just reckon you could have afforded to play him in Cambiasso's role and put someone else with Kaka behind Seeler. Someone say like Florian Albert. It would have given you much more going forward whilst losing little defensively

Again, underestimating Brady. He was a Centre/Left attacking player with a golden left foot. He can be played as LM in a 4-4-2 diamond to say, but definitely not the same as Cambiasso, who is far far more astute than Brady. Totally different players. If I want a DM on left, I'd go for Cambiasso and if I need a CM/AM, I'd for for Brady. Literally a genius playmaker.
 
Seeler is the best striker no question but then there's Kaka who didn't make 1 in 2 in his best goal scoring seasons. Brady scored barely anything. I have two better than 1 in 2 strikers plus Finney who achieved that in his best three seasons. If Seeler is stopped you have relatively little goal threat in comparison to me.

Career and season stats has no relevant to opponents here. Let's look at opponents in this match.

Kaka vs Senna. Kaka faced Senna he scored 3 goals and 1 assist across 3 matches. Senna has no way stopping Kaka and he is your best DM here. :nono: You have no way of shutting down Kaka, far less Brady or even Blanchflower in this game.

Overath faces has 3 DMs between him and Raul! Cambiasso and Never will aggressively shut him down with Blanchflower helping against Raul and cutting passing routes.
 
Again, underestimating Brady. He was a Centre/Left attacking player with a golden left foot. He can be played as LM in a 4-4-2 diamond to say, but definitely not the same as Cambiasso, who is far far more astute than Brady. Totally different players. If I want a DM on left, I'd go for Cambiasso and if I need a CM/AM, I'd for for Brady. Literally a genius playmaker.

When I meant in Cambiasso's role I didn't mean defensive B2B but rather an LCM with role similar to Seedorf. I think you side lacks overall creativity.

With respect to Blanchflower, my assessment was based on that video alone. He could well have demonstrated a better range of passing but I didn't see it then. If you have more footage then that would be good to see.

Btw which matches are the matches Kaka played against Kaka out of interest?

I'm off to sleep now and will respond in the morning.
 
When I meant in Cambiasso's role I didn't mean defensive B2B but rather an LCM with role similar to Seedorf. I think you side lacks overall creativity.

With respect to Blanchflower, my assessment was based on that video alone. He could well have demonstrated a better range of passing but I didn't see it then. If you have more footage then that would be good to see.

Btw which matches are the matches Kaka played against Kaka out of interest?

I'm off to sleep now and will respond in the morning.

It's strange that you claim lack of creativity against a side which has 3 playmakers, Blanchflower, Brady and Kaka :wenger:


I just checked transfermarkt. Google "marcos Senna opponents" choose transfermarkt site and then select Kaka from player drop down list.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mar...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0
 
@Edgar Allan Pillow I checked some of Neves's games and I'm still not convinced about the role you have assigned him here or being a good foil for Blanchflower and Cambiasso.

That being said, you do have more quality across the pitch and your star players (both full backs) and Seeler would have a good game IMO and would be a good fit for Physio's main attacking threats.

For Neves he's definitely your weak spot, but Senna isn't really a world beater in all time sense either, at least for me.

Would be a pretty open game and I guess I'd favor the team whose attack has a bit less resistance given it's pretty much equal in each line. Seeler would probably be my MOTM here.
 
Career and season stats has no relevant to opponents here. Let's look at opponents in this match.

Kaka vs Senna. Kaka faced Senna he scored 3 goals and 1 assist across 3 matches. Senna has no way stopping Kaka and he is your best DM here. :nono: You have no way of shutting down Kaka, far less Brady or even Blanchflower in this game.

Overath faces has 3 DMs between him and Raul! Cambiasso and Never will aggressively shut him down with Blanchflower helping against Raul and cutting passing routes.

In fairness to Senna one of Kaka's goals was a penalty and another was scored when he wasn't even on the pitch! And Senna himself scored a beauty of a free kick in that excellent 6-2 match.
 
In fairness to Senna one of Kaka's goals was a penalty and another was scored when he wasn't even on the pitch! And Senna himself scored a beauty of a free kick in that excellent 6-2 match.
To be fair Kaka was struggling with injuries at the time of those games and generally was off his (relatively short) peak.

Same can be said about Senna who was around 33-34 during those games.
 
From the desk of onenil:

"With respect to Blanchflower, my assessment was based on that video alone. He could well have demonstrated a better range of passing but I didn't see it then. If you have more footage then that would be good to see."

If the standard is providing video evidence for every claim made then we win by default because you haven't posted any video evidence supporting any of your points.


Uwe Seeler offers more than a match for either opposing CB. He's been ignored when in fact he is a game changer especially against the lower quality CBs and DM opposing him here.

"It is a very modern debate as to whether or not players should receive awards such as the Ballon d’Or based on their own individual records, performances and statistics, or on reflection of their team’s trophy cabinet in a given season.

With limited success in the trophy cabinet during a period where Hamburg were the forever hard-luck story of domestic German football, Seeler stood firmly in the category of shining individual brilliance — himself coming third in the 1960 Ballon d’Or poll behind Ferenc Puskás and Spain’s Luis Suárez.

Seeler had the opportunity to move abroad on numerous occasions. Despite turning down offers from clubs such as Inter Milan, his legacy remains to be remembered as one of football’s greatest ever players and without conceivable doubt one of Germany’s favourite sons.

Seeler’s statistics are nothing short of phenomenal — 507 goals scored for Hamburg and 43 for his country in 72 appearances"

'“Uwe Seeler was deceptive,” wrote Uli Hesse in his book Tor! The Story of German Football.

“One look at him and you knew he was probably good in the air, difficult to separate from the ball and possessive of a fearsome fighting spirit. Yet you would also maybe think he was pretty slow and lacked intricate ball skills.

“Well, you would quickly find out that he could explode over the crucial first yards and perform scissors and bicycle kicks without batting an eyelid. But then it would be too late.”
The reason Seeler didn’t end up joining Inter, who would go on to lift the European Cup just three years after Herrera’s offer, was largely because of his unwavering, humble loyalty to Hamburg."'



We have a major tactical advantage in midfield. Three man midfields have a big natural advantage over 442 and 442 became so rare. This is the reason 442 went out of style in the top leagues. Much has been written how packing the midfield with 3 players offers an inherent advantage tactically. The Christmas tree is essentially a variation on the 433 format and thus has this inherent advantage over 442 in midfield. We've seen this happen numerous times in the last 20 years and its why 442 are so rare now because they do have a distinct disadvantage in midfield against more modern formations.

‘Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs. There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop things’.
-Jose Mourinho
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/25/teams-of-the-decade-13-chelsea-2004-06/

Now just realize our extra man is Blanchflower who can control the match.

Raul and Crespo are passengers defensively. Physio mentions how he defends with 8 players. But then he forgets our side is built to defend with all 10 outfield players! Kaka, Seeler and Brady all offer much more in the defensive and transition phases than Raul and Crespo who are passengers on defense. So even if Barnes helps out his midfield, Brady helps out ours and maintains the man advantage 4-3.

Also modern 442 sides that have success (Atletico, 1 year of Leicester) are almost always defensive or counter-attacking sides. They can't maintain and win a possession battle against three man midfields as was proven across the European leagues in the 2000s when 433 and 4231 became the default formation.
 
Two well-constructed teams and it is always interesting and a headache to see a 4-4-2 against a 4-3-2-1

Some of my preferred players here and I do consider Crespo-Raul and Kaka-Seeler as perfect duos.

A game for attackers and I can see Raul and Kaka having a great game.

Sometimes, Carlo used a 4-3-2-1 with Rui Costa-Kaka to support Crespo or Scheva IIRC

Good to see players like Overath, Neves, Blanchflower

Regarding team EAP, his major strength are his FB and the star duo Kaka-Seeler and I would have preferred more playmaking players for the RM and LM positions.


------------------------ Seeler
-------- Ousmane Dembélé---------- Kaka
---- Brady --------- Blanchflower-----------Mendieta
-Lizarazu----------- Popescu-----Khurtsilava--------Sagnol

On the other hand, Physiocrat will struggle to contain the offensive power of EAP.

Need to think again before possibly voting
 
Was a really tough one to call as the triplet's defense and midfield was a great match to Physiocrat's attack (I like a few others don't like Overath there. A less technical but more steel of a presence would have been better IMO considering there is no lack of supply). Eventually went with Physiocrat as the triplet's front 3 didn't ring a bell with me.
 
@Synco The Modric comparison with Overath is a very good one. The main difference I think is Overath is more a genuine playmaker where Modric works alongside someone else and shares such duties.

The feeling that Overath (high work-rate, aggressiveness) is more suited for your team than Modric

Seeler is the best striker no question but then there's Kaka who didn't make 1 in 2 in his best goal scoring seasons. Brady scored barely anything. I have two better than 1 in 2 strikers plus Finney who achieved that in his best three seasons. If Seeler is stopped you have relatively little goal threat in comparison to me.

At his prime which was longer than most of us would think, he was
- also the main creative force of that Milan side
- his activity all over the pitch is impressive. Suffice to look at the youtube video Kaka vs Liverpool (2007 champions lague final).
- Unstoppable when he is at full speed and his acceleration was sharp
- top passing skills sited for dynamic strikers

Man of the match of course.

300px-Milan_vs_Liverpool_2007-05-23.svg.png


Now Brady looks a quality player there. Tenacious, good engine, an eye for a pass and a strong dribbler. I just reckon you could have afforded to play him in Cambiasso's role and put someone else with Kaka behind Seeler. Someone say like Florian Albert. It would have given you much more going forward whilst losing little defensively

In terms of profile, Rivaldo would have been perfect instead of Brady but he is a blocked player.
 
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Was a really tough one to call as the triplet's defense and midfield was a great match to Physiocrat's attack (I like a few others don't like Overath there. A less technical but more steel of a presence would have been better IMO considering there is no lack of supply). Eventually went with Physiocrat as the triplet's front 3 didn't ring a bell with me.

The triplet's front 3 would work well, it's just that Kaka would be more advanced than Brady.

Overath is fine here too

1555629_Germany.jpg


World cup final 66
 
Overath is fine here too

1555629_Germany.jpg


World cup final 66

It wasn't really a midfield 2 (Haller) and Senna isn't really Franz Fecking Feckenfauer now is he.

The triplet's front 3 would work well, it's just that Kaka would be more advanced than Brady.

Yea I get the basic idea although it took me a while to picturize it. Its just that it didn't seem to click with me for some reason.
 
Not that different to Ruin Costa, Kaka and Shevchenko in Milan.

Think there is about an hour and a little more left. If you could share a highlight video of some game, I could reconsider my vote. I honestly can't recall watching any game of that combination.
 
It wasn't really a midfield 2 (Haller) and Senna isn't really Franz Fecking Feckenfauer now is he.

I didn't say it was a copy of Team Physio.

I'm not familiar with these German players but I thought there were 4 players more offensive than Overath.

I can be wrong of course: superficial comments at first sight

Yea I get the basic idea although it took me a while to picturize it. Its just that it didn't seem to click with me for some reason.

I don't say you are right or wrong :)
 
I'm not familiar with these German players but I thought there were 4 players more offensive than Overath.

Haller is an AM and it was a 3-man-midfield

Maybe comparable to

James
Kroos-Modric

in terms of structure (not the same players of course).

That was played in Ancelotti's second season at Real Madrid (14/15), where they had an insane win streak at the first half of the season, but the players burnt out because Carlo didn't rotate.
 
@GodShaveTheQueen @Ecstatic

A more practical representation of the team.

Consider this:

- The best defensive midfielders on the pitch are Blanchflower and Cambiasso and they are facing a weaker duo in Overath/Raul.
- Only proper #10s in the pitch are Brady and Kaka and they are facing a far weaker DM in Senna.
- Seeler is better than both his CBs, whereas mine match up better to Crespo
.
- His strength is in wings but his wingers are against a proven top notch duo in fullbacks who will be upto the task.


Senna will not stop even Kaka alone far less Brady. there just is way too many weakness in this midfield match for Overath do handle, and he will not.


ASASDASYour-teamS-formation-tactics.png
 
@Edgar Allan Pillow
You dont need to sell me your midfield mate. I like it.

The attack is the one that hasn't caught my imagination.
I am not a fan of reading articles of modern teams. Will wait for a video if you do have the time to look for a game. (Kaka/Rui Costa was a good example indeed but I havent watched it. )
 
@Edgar Allan Pillow
You dont need to sell me your midfield mate. I like it.

The attack is the one that hasn't caught my imagination.
I am not a fan of reading articles of modern teams. Will wait for a video if you do have the time to look for a game. (Kaka/Rui Costa was a good example indeed but I havent watched it. )

When Milan ripped us apart :( Seedorf instead of Rui costa but same basic team formation and playing style