Sri Lanka

As an afterthought I wish to state:

The Lankan conflict cannot be equated to other conflicts in the world.

* The Lankan government never deprived Tamils of their legitimate right of access to their land of birth.
* The Lankan government never bulldozed and razed to ground the homes of LTTE fighters, or suspected LTTE cadres. Instead, the Lankan government has invited all Tamils around the world to come back to Lanka, and help in the rebuilding effort.
* Tamils in Lanka have all rights to live in any part of Lanka. In fact over 50% of the Tamils of Lanka live outside the conflict zone; Tamils are among the top leaders in both industry and commerce.
* Lanka does not have super power backing. In fact she has ignored threats from a super power and its lackey, who wanted a ceasefire.

On a lighter note:

A young man married a beautiful woman who had previously divorced 10 husbands. On their wedding night, she told her new husband to "Please be gentle; I'm still a virgin".

"What?" said the puzzled groom. "How can that be if you've been married ten times.?"

"Well, husband#1 was a Sales Representative; he kept telling me how great it was going to be.

"Husband # 2 was in Software Services; he was never really sure how it was suppose to function; but he said he'd look into it and get back with me.

"Husband # 3 was from Field Services; he said that everything checked out diagnostically but he just couldn't get the system up.

" Husband # 4 was in Telemarketing; even though he knew he had the order, ..he didn't know when he would be able to deliver.

"Husband # 5 was an Engineer, he understood the basic process but he wanted three years to research, implement, and design a new state of the-art method.

"Husband #6 was from Administration; he thought he knew how but he wasn't sure whether it was his job or not.

"Husband # 7 was in Marketing; although he had a product, he was never sure how to position it.

"Husband # 8 was a Psychiatrist; all he did was talk about it.

"Husband # 9 was a Gynaecologist; all he did was look at it.

"Husband # 10 was a Stamp Collector; all he ever did was li........... God I miss him.

" But now that I've married you, I'm so excited".

"Wonderful", said the husband, "but why?

"Your're with the "SRI LANKAN GOVERNMENT"..

This time I KNOW I'M gonna get feckED." well and truly!!!
 
UN 'appalled' at Sri Lanka deaths

The United Nations secretary-general has said that he is "appalled" by reports of the recent killing of hundreds of civilians in Sri Lanka's offensive against the separatist Tamil Tigers.

Ban Ki-moon made the comments on Monday after at least 378 civilians died in the shelling of a small strip of land in the north of the island where the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) remain.

"The LTTE must immediately allow the remaining civilians in the conflict zone to leave," a statement quoted Ban as saying.

He also said that the government in Colombo must "explore all possible options" to end the fighting.

Each side should remember that the world will not accept further violations of international law, Ban said.

'Unacceptably high'

The US has also voiced concern about what it called an "unacceptably high" level of civilian casualties in the shelling over the weekend.

"We have repeatedly urged the Tamil Tigers to lay down its arms and allow the civilians to leave," Ian Kelly, a US state department spokesman, said.

"The government of Sri Lanka should abide by its April 27th statement that combat operations have concluded and security forces should end the use of heavy weapons which of course could cause civilian casualties."

UN officials in Sri Lanka described the shelling as a "bloodbath".

"We have consistently warned of a bloodbath scenario, and the large-scale killing of civilians over the weekend, including at least more than 100 children, shows that that bloodbath has now become a reality," Gordon Weiss, the UN spokesman for Sri Lanka, told Al Jazeera on Monday.

------------------------------

UN and Al-Jazeera. It doesn't get any more credible than this. Bloodbath.
 
OMG. They are all crying for the safety of civilians. Even butchers are shedding tears when cattle are being slaughtered.
 
Another after thought:

No Lankan and his gang buried and burnt alive women and children, and then went on to become a prime minister of my country.
 
From The TimesMay 29, 2009

The hidden massacre: Sri Lanka’s final offensive against Tamil Tigers

More than 20,000 Tamil civilians were killed in the final throes of the Sri Lankan civil war, most as a result of government shelling, an investigation by The Times has revealed.

The number of casualties is three times the official figure.

The Sri Lankan authorities have insisted that their forces stopped using heavy weapons on April 27 and observed the no-fire zone where 100,000 Tamil men, women and children were sheltering. They have blamed all civilian casualties on Tamil Tiger rebels concealed among the civilians.

Aerial photographs, official documents, witness accounts and expert testimony tell a different story. With the world’s media and aid organisations kept well away from the fighting, the army launched a fierce barrage that began at the end of April and lasted about three weeks. The offensive ended Sri Lanka’s 26-year civil war with the Tamil Tigers, but innocent civilians paid the price.

Confidential United Nations documents acquired by The Times record nearly 7,000 civilian deaths in the no-fire zone up to the end of April. UN sources said that the toll then surged, with an average of 1,000 civilians killed each day until May 19, the day after Velupillai Prabhakaran, the leader of the Tamil Tigers, was killed. That figure concurs with the estimate made to The Times by Father Amalraj, a Roman Catholic priest who fled the no-fire zone on May 16 and is now interned with 200,000 other survivors in Manik Farm refugee camp. It would take the final toll above 20,000. “Higher,” a UN source told The Times. “Keep going.”

Some of the victims can be seen in the photograph above, which shows the destruction of the flimsy refugee camp. In the bottom right-hand corner, sand mounds show makeshift burial grounds. Other pictures show a more orderly military cemetery, believed to be for hundreds of rebel fighters. One photograph shows rebel gun emplacements next to the refugee camp.

Independent defence experts who analysed dozens of aerial photographs taken by The Times said that the arrangement of the army and rebel firing positions and the narrowness of the no-fire zone made it unlikely that Tiger mortar fire or artillery caused a significant number of deaths. “It looks more likely that the firing position has been located by the Sri Lankan Army and it has then been targeted with air-burst and ground-impact mortars,” said Charles Heyman, editor of the magazine Armed Forces of the UK.

On Wednesday, Sri Lanka was cleared of any wrongdoing by the UN Human Rights Council after winning the backing of countries including China, Egypt, India and Cuba.

A spokesman for the Sri Lankan High Commission in London said: “We reject all these allegations. Civilians have not been killed by government shelling at all. If civilians have been killed, then that is because of the actions of the LTTE [rebels] who were shooting and killing people when they tried to escape.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6383449.ece
 
UN chief knew Tamil civilian toll had reached 20,000

The top aide to the United Nations Secretary-General was told more than a week ago that at least 20,000 Tamil civilians were killed in the Sri Lankan Government’s final offensive against the Tamil Tiger rebels this month, The Times can reveal.

UN officials told Vijar Nambiar, Ban Ki Moon’s chief of staff, that their figures indicated a likely final death toll of more than 20,000, during a briefing in preparation for Mr Ban’s visit to the region on May 23.

Two staff present at the meeting confirmed the exchange to The Times but Mr Ban never mentioned the death toll during his tour of the battleground, which he described as the “most appalling scene” he had witnessed in his long international career.

The casualty figure, revealed by The Times yesterday, triggered an international furore, with the Sri Lankan authorities denying the report and human rights groups demanding an investigation into possible war crimes.

Lakshman Hulugalle, a Defence Ministry spokesman, said: “These figures are way out . . . What we think is that these images are also fake. We totally deny the allegation that 20,000 people were killed.”

But, internationally, calls have been growing for an independent war crimes investigations on both sides and for access by humanitarian groups to the war zone and the 270,000 Tamil civilians who are still being detained.

Amnesty International called on the UN to release the estimated figures to help to push for a war crimes inquiry. “The Timess investigation underscores the need for investigation and the UN should do everything it can to determine the truth about the ‘bloodbath’ that occurred in northeast Sri Lanka,” Sam Zarifi, the Asia-Pacific director of Amnesty International, said.

“The Human Rights Council’s decision not to call for specific measures to protect Sri Lankans made a mockery of the council, but it does not mean the end of the international community’s responsibility to respond to this continuing crisis,” Mr Zarifi said.

The International Committee of the Red Cross made a rare public plea yesterday for access to the no-fire zone and internment camps in the region. “We haven’t been able to access the areas where most of these people would have fled from since the ending of the most recent fighting,” Florian Westphal, the Red Cross spokesman, told a briefing in Geneva.

The figure of 20,000 casualties was given to The Times by UN sources, who explained in detail how they arrived at that calculation.

Before this month’s bombardment made the recording of each individual death impossible, the figures had been collated from deaths reported by priests and doctors and added to a count of the bodies brought to medical points.

Of the total, the bodies collected accounted for only a fifth of all reported deaths. After the bombing intensified this month, the only numbers available were by a count of the bodies. The 20,000 figure is an extrapolation based on the actual body count.

The 20,000 figure has also been obtained by Le Monde, the French daily newspaper, which quoted UN sources as saying that the figure had not been made public to avoid a diplomatic storm. The figure of 7,000 deaths until the end of April, which was based on individually documented deaths and not estimates, was leaked by UN sources in Sri Lanka this month after internal anger over the secrecy surrounding them. UN satellite images documenting the bombing of medical facilities were also leaked from New York.

The UN Humanitarian Co-ordination Office said yesterday that the figures cited by The Times were based on “well-informed estimates” given in private briefings to member states to underscore its concern — including Britain and the United States.

“You have seen the figures that are mentioned. Obviously, what we have are well-informed estimates and not precise, verifiable numbers,” said Elisabeth Byrs, spokeswoman for the humanitarian co-ordination office. “The point is the UN has not been shy about the scale of human suffering and civilian casualties. It has been ringing the alarm bells for a long time.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6391265.ece
 
If anybody can be patient enough to read this:

UN says London Times death toll based on unreliable data
By Louis Charbonneau

UNITED NATIONS, The world will probably never find out how many innocent civilians died during the bloody final phase of Sri Lanka's war against Tamil Tiger rebels, the U.N. humanitarian chief said on Friday.

The United Nations believes that anywhere from 80,000 to 100,000 people died in what was one of Asia's longest modern wars, erupting in earnest in 1983 when Tamil Tiger rebels began to fight for a separate state for Sri Lanka's minority Tamils.

In the final months of the war, the civilian death rate rose alarmingly as government forces surrounded the LTTE who retreated to a tiny strip of coast in northeastern Sri Lanka, where the United Nations says they kept hundreds of thousands of civilians as human shields.
U.N. under-secretary-general John Holmes: The Times figure has no status as far as the UN is concerned”

U.N. under-secretary-general John Holmes, who oversees the United Nations' many humanitarian operations, told Reuters in an interview that it was unclear how many died in the months before Sri Lanka declared victory over the LTTE on May 18.

He also disputed a death toll reported in The Times of London that cited a “U.N. source” to support an estimate that at least 20,000 people were killed during the months-long final siege.

“That figure has no status as far as we're concerned,” Holmes said. “It may be right, it may be wrong, it may be far too high, it may even be too low. But we honestly don't know. We've always said an investigation would be a good idea.” He said it was based on an unofficial and unverified U.N. estimate of around 7,000 civilian deaths through the end of April and added on roughly 1,000 more per day after that.

Holmes said the initial figure of 7,000 deaths had been deemed far too questionable for official publication. Those were “estimates based on the best evidence that we had, but that wasn't very good evidence because we weren't really present in the (battle zone) in any systematic way,” Holmes said. “That's why we didn't publish them.”

He said there would likely never be a reliable death toll. “I fear we may (never know), because I don't know that the government would be prepared to cooperate with any inquiry,” Holmes said. But there was no doubt “several thousand” civilians had died during the siege, he added.

During that siege, Holmes repeatedly criticized the government for shelling areas where civilians were trapped, warning that it could lead to a “bloodbath”. He also criticized the LTTE for treating innocent civilians as hostages.

Sri Lanka's U.N. mission did not return calls requesting comment. The U.N. Human Rights Council decided this week not to investigate the civilian deaths in the war, a decision that human rights groups have described as disappointing.

British media reports also said that aerial photographs taken when a U.N. delegation flew over the former conflict zone last week showed evidence of mass graves. Photos of those locations taken by a Reuters reporter traveling with the delegation showed no clear signs of mass graves, though some individual gravesites might be visible.

Holmes said the appearance of makeshift cemeteries was no surprise. “A lot of people were killed, several thousand, so you would expect to see a lot of graves there,” he said.

In an editorial, The Times wrote that “the U.N. has no right to collude in suppressing the appalling evidence” of a government-executed massacre. This clearly annoyed Holmes.

“I resent this allegation that we've been colluding with the government in some way or not taking sufficient notice,” he said. “We have been the ones drawing attention to this problem when the media weren't very interested several months ago.”
 
Now let me reiterate: No Lankan minister sent goons and thugs into a refugee camp and butchered men, women and children.

This was culled from Wikipedia:

During the 1982 Lebanon War, while Sharon was Defense Minister, the Sabra and Shatila massacre took place, in which between 800 and 3,500 Palestinian civilians in the refugee camps were killed by the Phalanges—Lebanese Maronite Christian militias. The Security Chief of the Phalange militia, a Lebanese himself, Elie Hobeika, was the ground commander of the militiamen who entered the Palestinian camps and killed the Palestinians. The Phalange had been sent into the camps to clear out PLO fighters while Israeli forces surrounded the camps and provided them with some logistical support and guarded camp exits. The incident led some of Sharon's critics to refer to him as "the Butcher of Beirut".[10]
An Associated Press report on 15 September 1982 stated:
Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, in a statement, tied the killing [of the Phalangist leader Gemayel] to the PLO, saying: "It symbolises the terrorist murderousness of the PLO terrorist organisations and their supporters." Habib Chartouni, a Lebanese Christian from the Syrian Socialist National Party confessed to the murder of Gemayel, and no Palestinians were involved. Sharon had used this to instigate the entrance of the Lebanese militias into the camps.

The Kahan Commission found the Israeli Defence Forces indirectly responsible for the massacre and charged Sharon with "personal responsibility." It recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense minister. In their recommendations and closing remarks, the commission stated:
We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense [Ariel Sharon] bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which "the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office."[11]
Sharon initially refused to resign as Defense Minister, and Prime Minister Menachem Begin initially refused to fire him. After a grenade was tossed into a dispersing crowd of an Israeli Peace Now march, killing Emil Grunzweig and injuring 10 others, a compromise was reached: Sharon agreed to forfeit the post of Defense Minister but stayed in the cabinet as a Minister without Portfolio.[12] Ariel Sharon's removal as Defense Minister is listed as one of the important events of the Tenth Knesset.
 
India was accused yesterday of complicity in the killing of an estimated 20,000 civilians in the last stages of Sri Lanka’s 26-year war against the Tamil Tigers.

Major-General Ashok Mehta, a former commander of Indian peacekeeping forces in Sri Lanka, said that India’s role was “distressing and disturbing”. Two international human rights groups said that India had failed to do enough to protect civilian lives.

“We were complicit in this last phase of the offensive when a great number of civilians were killed,” General Mehta, who is now retired, told The Times. “Having taken a decision to go along with the campaign, we went along with it all the way and ignored what was happening on the ground.”

Despite being home to 60 million Tamils, India has provided Sri Lanka with military equipment, training and intelligence over the past three years, diplomatic sources told The Times. More controversially, it provided unwavering diplomatic support and failed to use its influence to negotiate a ceasefire for civilians to escape the front line, they said.

India joined a bloc led by China and Russia at a special session of the UN Human Rights Council last week to thwart a proposal for a war crimes inquiry, and instead supported a resolution praising Sri Lanka. In January India voted in favour of a war crimes inquiry into Israel’s operation in the Gaza Strip, which killed an estimated 926 civilians.

General Mehta said that the Indian Government, led by the Congress Party, wanted to counterbalance China and Pakistan, its main regional rivals, which had each increased arms sales to Sri Lanka in the past few years. It also wanted to avenge the Tigers’ assassination in 1991 of Rajiv Gandhi, the Prime Minister and late husband of Sonia Gandhi, the current Congress leader, he said.

Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, said that neither reason justified failing to act when the Red Cross warned of an “unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe”. India “could have saved many lives if it had taken a proactive position — and it would not have affected the outcome of the war,” he said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6401557.ece
 
BTW, resident Indians, what's your view of India's role in these latest events? Does it have any significant influence on the Sri Lankan regime?
 
Spoony said:
BJP are a racist bunch. So you can stop using that cool smilie.

And India's been accused of killing 20,000 Tamils. Shame on your government.
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Congress have a traditional rivalry with the tigers since they killed Rajeev Gandhi. Part of this is all Congress' making. And BJP are not racist at all.
 
Spoony said:
I thought Israel and India were bezzie mates?
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Not sure about that, but relations are much better than they used to be. Speaking of our best mates, they don't seem to like us anymore too. Looks like we're pretty much fecked.
 
Merman said:
Congress have a traditional rivalry with the tigers since they killed Rajeev Gandhi. Part of this is all Congress' making. And BJP are not racist at all.
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That's like saying the BNP are promoting pluralism in the UK. You're not one of these Hindutva nutjobs, Dipperripper? As for the traditional rivarly, killing 20,000 Tamils goes beyond rivarly.
 
holyland red said:
Not sure about that, but relations are much better than they used to be. Speaking of our best mates, they don't seem to like us anymore too. Looks like we're pretty much fecked.
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Well, you've still got the States and UK still loves you - politically speaking.

How about a flaffel then, anyway?
 
Spoony said:
That's like saying the BNP are promoting pluralism in the UK. You're not one of these Hindutva nutjobs, Dipperripper? As for the traditional rivarly, killing 20,000 Tamils goes beyond rivarly.
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BJP are nothing like BNP, they are similar to the modern Republican party in the US. I'm not a hindu nationalist, but I prefer Hindutva nutjobs to incompetent nutjobs like Congress.
 
holyland red said:
Not sure about that, but relations are much better than they used to be. Speaking of our best mates, they don't seem to like us anymore too. Looks like we're pretty much fecked.
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Israel has been our biggest ally for some time although you have more important allies than India. We face a common enemy.
 
Merman said:
BJP are nothing like BNP, they are similar to the modern Republican party in the US. I'm not a hindu nationalist, but I prefer Hindutva nutjobs to incompetent nutjobs like Congress.
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You're an extremist nutjob then.

Well done. Seriously, get your head out of your arse.
 
Spoony said:
Well, you've still got the States and UK still loves you - politically speaking.

How about a flaffel then, anyway?
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That's the thing about our best mates though. Apparently, Obama has expressed his uncertainty about his love. Unfortunately, he did not give us the "it's not you, it's me" routine and instead pointed a blaming finger at us.

Falafel...:drool: the best in the business is here in downtown Haifa.
 
Spoony said:
You're an extremist nutjob then.

Well done. Seriously, get your head out of your arse.
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:lol:BJP are not what the western media portrays them to be. Many Indians think they were the most competent government since Nehru's Congress. If not for the Gujrath riots, they'd have won again.
 
holyland red said:
That's the thing about our best mates though. Apparently, Obama has expressed his uncertainty about his love. Unfortunately, he did not give us the "it's not you, it's me" routine and instead pointed a blaming finger at us.

Falafel...:drool: the best in the business is here in downtown Haifa.
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To be fair, deep down he loves you. You know it's the case. I'm not sure he'd be allowed not to love you - you do have a huge following in those parts(neo cons before you think I meant something else!!!!!!!). And it's not just down to your falafels.

How's the doner/lamb shawarma in downtown Haifa?
 
Merman said:
Israel has been our biggest ally for some time although you have more important allies than India. We face a common enemy.
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Some ally you are, calling for UN inquiry of war crimes for the Gaza operation. You are interested in military technologies we are willing to sell. That's where it all starts and finishes. Huge contracts too.
 
Merman said:
:lol:BJP are not what the western media portrays them to be. Many Indians think they were the most competent government since Nehru's Congress. If not for the Gujrath riots, they'd have won again.
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Bollocks. Why would they be protrayed in such a poor light? You call yourself a religious/god-fearing person, but I think you're a hyprocrite. It's clear which end of the political spectrum you're on, epecially when you think Hinduvta extremists are an ok bunch. Sorry, they're not. Have you actually read some of their historical revisionism?

Extremism is wrong. Full stop.
 
Spoony said:
To be fair, deep down he loves you. You know it's the case. I'm not sure he'd be allowed not to love you - you do have a huge following in those parts. And it's not just down to your falafels.

How's the doner/lamb shawarma in downtown Haifa?
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The thing is that the new administration might be tempted to adhere to simplistic formulas in an attempt to try and fix a complicated situation which in all honsety seems impossible to repair. In that it is not very different to the previous administration. Neither boming the shit out of your fundamentalist rival nor kicking out a couple of settlers out of their caravan isn't going to promote real peace in the region.

Re Shawarma, I'm vegetarian so all I can say is that the smell is indeed wonderful. Memories of shawarma with Amba sauce (pickled mango) sometimes make we question the wisdom in avoiding meat.
 
holyland red said:
The thing is that the new administration might be tempted to adhere to simplistic formulas in an attempt to try and fix a complicated situation which in all honsety seems impossible to repair. In that it is not very different to the previous administration. Neither boming the shit out of your fundamentalist rival nor kicking out a couple of settlers out of their caravan isn't going to promote real peace in the region.

Re Shawarma, I'm vegetarian so all I can say is that the smell is indeed wonderful. Memories of shawarma with Amba sauce (pickled mango) sometimes make we question the wisdom in avoiding meat.
Click to expand...

Extremism's everywhere, Holy. I'll sound preachy, but I think talking's the best way. Yes, it's probably simplistic. But even Churchill said it's better to jaw jaw jaw than war war war. And he was a bit of a conservative loon.

As for not eating meat - why not? That Amba sauce sounds lovely.
 
Spoony said:
Extremism's everywhere, Holy. I'll sound preachy, but I think talking's the best way. Yes, it's probably simplistic. But even Churchill said it's better to jaw jaw jaw than war war war. And he was a bit of a conservative loon.

As for not eating meat - why not? That Amba sauce sounds lovely.
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I'm afraid talking has been tried here and (as expected) hasn't worked. All left to do at this stage is to control the flames rather than put out the fire.

Which brings me back to the topic of Sri Lanka where it was found that kicking the media out and killing everyone in sight, including civilians, is the only way to defeat resistance/terrorist groups who hide among their own population. That's what the West has been doing in Afghanistan, the Pakistranis are doing now fighting the Taliban and of course the Singhalese (sp?) did so extraordinarily with the Tamils.

I suggested earlier in this thread that the fact Israel is singled out when it retailtes brutally to being attacked, and how hypocritical I felt it was. A bit like me being a vegetarian while still enjoying the smell of shawarma. Little difference between eating the damn thing and letting its molecules condense in my nose. It's nose-drinking shawarma.
 
holyland red said:
Which brings me back to the topic of Sri Lanka where it was found that kicking the media out and killing everyone in sight, including civilians, is the only way to defeat resistance/terrorist groups who hide among their own population. That's what the West has been doing in Afghanistan, the Pakistranis are doing now fighting the Taliban and of course the Singhalese (sp?) did so extraordinarily with the Tamils.
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It's been very interesting where you've been going with this thread from the very outset. Any decent human should be condemning these civilian killings, and looking to learn from these conflicts how best to avoid losing innocent lives in future conflicts.

Instead your contributions in this thread has been to criticise the UN, and ultimately in a warped way justified your countries murder of civilians, and getting in reasons/excuses for the future.
 
holyland red said:
BTW, resident Indians, what's your view of India's role in these latest events? Does it have any significant influence on the Sri Lankan regime?
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India's role in current conflict has largely been non-interventionist (if thats a word) driven by political compulsions. There's no love lost between the Congress and Tigers who did themselves so favours with the assasination of Rajiv Gandhi. So while the government will not help out the LTTE, they're not going to actively oppose it either. There's too much LTTE sympathy in the key southern state of Tamil Nadu (there'a lot of family connections and general brotherly feeling with the Lankan tamils).

As far the general public (outside Tamil Nadu) goes, there's nothing except some mild curiosity. No real interest. The IPKF is a distant memory and there's no enthusiasm for any form of intervention whatsoever.

The foreign office has long viewed Sri Lanka as a key local ally and they're pretty concerned about the Chinese influence there. With China on one side and Pakistan on the other, if Sri Lanka goes China's way, India will be encircled by unfriendly, if not hostile, countries. Which is why they're making a lot of effort to get on the right side of the Sri Lankan government. No critical public statements about the crisis, blocking of UN resolutions etc.

Can't really blame them for trying given the circumstances but its unlikely to succeed China has been pouring serious money into Sri Lanka lately and mild political support from India is going to matter very little in the overall scheme of things.
 
Red-Indian said:
India's role in current conflict has largely been non-interventionist (if thats a word) driven by political compulsions. There's no love lost between the Congress and Tigers who did themselves so favours with the assasination of Rajiv Gandhi. So while the government will not help out the LTTE, they're not going to actively oppose it either. There's too much LTTE sympathy in the key southern state of Tamil Nadu (there'a lot of family connections and general brotherly feeling with the Lankan tamils).

As far the general public (outside Tamil Nadu) goes, there's nothing except some mild curiosity. No real interest. The IPKF is a distant memory and there's no enthusiasm for any form of intervention whatsoever.

The foreign office has long viewed Sri Lanka as a key local ally and they're pretty concerned about the Chinese influence there. With China on one side and Pakistan on the other, if Sri Lanka goes China's way, India will be encircled by unfriendly, if not hostile, countries. Which is why they're making a lot of effort to get on the right side of the Sri Lankan government. No critical public statements about the crisis, blocking of UN resolutions etc.

Can't really blame them for trying given the circumstances but its unlikely to succeed China has been pouring serious money into Sri Lanka lately and mild political support from India is going to matter very little in the overall scheme of things.
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Every government in Lanka has viewed India with a bit of suspicion. Yet an uneasy relationship has been maintained. Relations hit a rock bottom during the regime of Indira Gandhi, who helped train and arm the LTTE. Her son Rajiv had to pay the price.

Pakistan and China, in the meantime helped Lanka to the hilt, and poured in arms and money to fight the LTTE. Despite the bombing of the Lankan cricketers' bus in March, there is hardly any ill feeling towards Pakistan among the local populace. The general consensus in Lanka is that it was RAW that was responsible.
 
anver said:
Every government in Lanka has viewed India with a bit of suspicion. Yet an uneasy relationship has been maintained. Relations hit a rock bottom during the regime of Indira Gandhi, who helped train and arm the LTTE. Her son Rajiv had to pay the price.

Pakistan and China, in the meantime helped Lanka to the hilt, and poured in arms and money to fight the LTTE. Despite the bombing of the Lankan cricketers' bus in March, there is hardly any ill feeling towards Pakistan among the local populace. The general consensus in Lanka is that it was RAW that was responsible.
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Fair enough I guess. India hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in its handling of sensitive issues with its smaller neighbours. We seem to have pissed everybody off - Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and even Nepal of late. Comes with being the boorish big brother with some regional domination aspirations without the financial resources or diplomatic subtlety to back those ambitions up.

Even so... i'm a little disappointed about India's response to this. Given that we have so little to lose, it would have been nice to see us take a more principled stand on the matter rather than blatantly block resolutions in the UN.

The Sri Lankan response (like yours Anwar) has been to close its years to any criticism and yell "na na na na" in the hope that it will go away. That or pointing to similar atrocities or tragedies saying that they are worse that us which is neither here nor there.

Its particularly concerning that even days after the so-called end to the war, the Sri Lankan government refuses to allow access to foreign media. If it is indeed true that most of the casualties came from the LTTE using civilians as human shields, why not let neutral observers in not that there's no fighting so that the truth can be independantly investigated?
 
holyland red said:
Some ally you are, calling for UN inquiry of war crimes for the Gaza operation. You are interested in military technologies we are willing to sell. That's where it all starts and finishes. Huge contracts too.
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Given our Muslim population, international stance will always be inclinded towards Palestine.
 
Red-Indian said:
Fair enough I guess. India hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in its handling of sensitive issues with its smaller neighbours. We seem to have pissed everybody off - Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and even Nepal of late. Comes with being the boorish big brother with some regional domination aspirations without the financial resources or diplomatic subtlety to back those ambitions up.

Even so... i'm a little disappointed about India's response to this. Given that we have so little to lose, it would have been nice to see us take a more principled stand on the matter rather than blatantly block resolutions in the UN.

The Sri Lankan response (like yours Anwar) has been to close its years to any criticism and yell "na na na na" in the hope that it will go away. That or pointing to similar atrocities or tragedies saying that they are worse that us which is neither here nor there.

Its particularly concerning that even days after the so-called end to the war, the Sri Lankan government refuses to allow access to foreign media. If it is indeed true that most of the casualties came from the LTTE using civilians as human shields, why not let neutral observers in not that there's no fighting so that the truth can be independantly investigated?
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:nono: If you read my earlier posts, you would have noticed I have always maintained that there have been civilian deaths in the recent battle. But, the numbers being touted by the media are vastly exaggerated. That is where my na, na, na...comes in. The Times report is one glaring example. Please read the rebuttal by the UN.

As for the foreign media being allowed into IDP camps: Man, there are quite a large number of LTTE fighters masquerading as refugees in these camps. At present a monitoring and registering process is on. And quite a few LTTE cadres were smuggled out by foreign media guys in the past. The army does not want a repeat of this. Even the local media has no access to these camps.
 
Sultan said:
It's been very interesting where you've been going with this thread from the very outset. Any decent human should be condemning these civilian killings, and looking to learn from these conflicts how best to avoid losing innocent lives in future conflicts.

Instead your contributions in this thread has been to criticise the UN, and ultimately in a warped way justified your countries murder of civilians, and getting in reasons/excuses for the future.
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Condemnations, avoiding loss of innocent lives...blah, blah, fecking blah. You've paid your lip service so we can all agree that you're a "decent human". Only that we've already established that, and this forum is not about patting ourselves on the back.

I have been pointing out yet another example of the different treatment my country gets compared to that others do when the scales of the conflicts in question are an order of magnitude apart (With the Sril Lanka campaign costing 1000's of civilian lives). As you don't like the nature of my earlier posts and instead insist on taking this to a personal exchange I'll try to highlight my point by enquiring as for the reason you have so far failed to compare the Sri Lankan army to that of Nazy Germany.
 
anver said:
:nono: If you read my earlier posts, you would have noticed I have always maintained that there have been civilian deaths in the recent battle. But, the numbers being touted by the media are vastly exaggerated. That is where my na, na, na...comes in. The Times report is one glaring example. Please read the rebuttal by the UN.

As for the foreign media being allowed into IDP camps: Man, there are quite a large number of LTTE fighters masquerading as refugees in these camps. At present a monitoring and registering process is on. And quite a few LTTE cadres were smuggled out by foreign media guys in the past. The army does not want a repeat of this. Even the local media has no access to these camps.
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Now this is getting paranoid. You actually think Reuters, AFP, CNN et al are going to be smuggling terrorists out of refugee camps? If yes, then the Sri Lankan government and everybody who thinks this way need a quick visit to psychiatrist.

If you think the media numbers are exaggerated, give them access to investigate and find some real numbers.

To be honest, I too doubt some of the figures being talked about but on the other hand, I am absolutely certain that the numbers and facts being released by the government are gross underestimates.

On the whole, I think the Lankan government is extremely ill-advised to follow this approach of totally refusing to acknowledge the scale of the tragedy. In the long term, this will only breed resentments among the Tamil population. We have the example of Palestine in front of us. There is no simple military solution to the problem although it may seem like you have discovered one.

In my opinion, the better approach would for the Sri Lankan government to allow independant investigation, express regret for the mistakes made and offer reparations and compensation for the civilians affected. The only solution, however painful, is to let the truth out in the open and then try and deal with it.
 
Red-Indian said:
Now this is getting paranoid. You actually think Reuters, AFP, CNN et al are going to be smuggling terrorists out of refugee camps? If yes, then the Sri Lankan government and everybody who thinks this way need a quick visit to psychiatrist.

If you think the media numbers are exaggerated, give them access to investigate and find some real numbers.

To be honest, I too doubt some of the figures being talked about but on the other hand, I am absolutely certain that the numbers and facts being released by the government are gross underestimates.

On the whole, I think the Lankan government is extremely ill-advised to follow this approach of totally refusing to acknowledge the scale of the tragedy. In the long term, this will only breed resentments among the Tamil population. We have the example of Palestine in front of us. There is no simple military solution to the problem although it may seem like you have discovered one.

In my opinion, the better approach would for the Sri Lankan government to allow independant investigation, express regret for the mistakes made and offer reparations and compensation for the civilians affected. The only solution, however painful, is to let the truth out in the open and then try and deal with it.
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There have been independent local media reports to this effect. I dont know which foreign news agency was involved. I will get the media report about this.
 
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