Southport knife attack - 3 children dead | pleads guilty to murder assault and terrorism charges

[AdamColeBebe]

Why are they attacking a mosque when Islam has absolutely nothing to do with this?

 

[Roane]

feck these EDL scumbags. I’ve seen some people try and defend this by saying that the rioters are “concerned parents”, but they’re not. They’re racists who just want an excuse to be racist. Horrible people, the lot of them.

I lived in Southport in the 90s.

It always had a problem with right wing racists. But it was mostly external. People of Southport were lovely.

As a student I worked nights near the train station. Used to see a lot of violence at night but again mainly outsiders on a night out. Had scuffles with guys from Burnley for example. Again right wing football fans.

The biggest issue uses to occur during the Orangeman day parade. Combat 18, NF (before EDL became a thing but that ilk) used to cause chaos and huge violence. They didn't "discriminate" either. Glassing and bricking men women and children.

 

[sebsheep]

Why are they attacking a mosque when Islam has absolutely nothing to do with this?

EDL, they don't really care for the facts.

 

[SilentWitness]

Why are they attacking a mosque when Islam has absolutely nothing to do with this?

Because the UK has a deep problem with Islamophobia and it's been enabled by GB News, Farage, Tommy etc.

 

[Pexbo]

Good point.

It’s not a good point at all, what on earth would butchers do? A boning knife needs a very sharp point. Surgeons?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s not a good point at all, what on earth would butchers do? A boning knife needs a very sharp point. Surgeons?

Surgeons “knives” would be terrible for stabbing someone to death. The blade is about an inch long and very fragile.

Yer man claims that the pointed blades that chefs need could be very short. Too short to kill. According to some chefs he’s talked too. No idea of this is true. I consider myself a reasonably competent home chef and I could definitely get away with using knives without points.

 

[LARulz]

"Tommy Robinson in a suit" is actually quite a funny line

 

[acnumber9]

Only in the same way people of colour contribute to racism. Which sound a lot like victim blaming.

How can women have zero impact on societal norms?

 

[Pexbo]

Surgeons “knives” would be terrible for stabbing someone to death. The blade is about an inch long and very fragile.

Bad example, my point being that sharp tabby points are a functional requirement for a lot of use cases. For this idea to work you have to ban all of them otherwise they just end up in circulation (along with billions of others that are already in circulation).

Don’t even get me on to homemade shanks. If people want to have something that can stab someone they’re not going to have any trouble procuring it. It’s just not a practical solution in any way shape or forum.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

It’s not a good point at all, what on earth would butchers do? A boning knife needs a very sharp point. Surgeons?

Are you alright? Like, engage your brain, this is about sale of knives to the public, not removing scalpels from surgeons. Strewth.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Bad example, my point being that sharp tabby points are a functional requirement for a lot of use cases. For this idea to work you have to ban all of them otherwise they just end up in circulation (along with billions of others that are already in circulation).

Don’t even get me on to homemade shanks. If people want to have something that can stab someone they’re not going to have any trouble procuring it. It’s just not a practical solution in any way shape or forum.

Where there’s a will there’s a way, sure. But keeping long, pointed knives out of domestic kitchens does seem like it might help? Even if only in a small number of cases it might be worth it. You do often read about someone grabbing a kitchen knife and heading out to stab someone. Impulsive murders like that might go down, no?

Obviously won’t make a jot of difference to gang related knife crimes etc Which is surely the most common category. It also wouldn’t have prevented this particular incident.

 

[Pexbo]

Are you alright? Like, engage your brain, this is about sale of knives to the public, not removing scalpels from surgeons. Strewth.

I’ve conceded that scalpels are a bad example. But try engaging your brain… as a chef there’s god knows how many knives that require a point. How do you regulate that? Chef’s licence? There’s literally millions of chefs around the country, tens of millions if we are talking amateur - are you saying they can’t have pointed knives anymore? That’s one profession.

The tiniest amount of critical thinking exposes this as not being a practical solution in any way shape or form.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Where there’s a will there’s a way, sure. But keeping long, pointed knives out of domestic kitchens does seem like it might help? Even if only in a small number of cases it might be worth it. You do often read about someone grabbing a kitchen knife and heading out to stab someone. Impulsive murders like that might go down, no?

Obviously won’t make a jot of difference to gang related knife crimes etc Which is surely the most common category. It also wouldn’t have prevented this particular incident.

If we take guns as an example, less ubiquitous in every day life but hurdles, legislation and removal from sale did contribute to a decline in gun deaths. The article also cites change to the legialsation to procure Paracetemol, meaning one pack per shop, did have an impact on overdoses from paracetamol, because it was another barrier to cross. Naturally if you want more, you go to more shops but this time does dilute the emotions around these actions.

 

[Roane]

I worked in community safety for a number of years and whereas some of the wannabe gangsters did own some horrible looking knives most deaths seemed to occur with your normal kitchen knife, keeping in mind that deaths often occur in households so for example a partner stabbing a partner etc.

On the streets, generally speaking, Stanley knives were the most often carried.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I’ve conceded that scalpels are a bad example. But try engaging your brain… as a chef there’s god knows how many knives that require a point. How do you regulate that? Chef’s licence? There’s literally millions of chefs around the country, tens of millions if we are talking amateur - are you saying they can’t have pointed knives anymore? That’s one profession.

The tiniest amount of critical thinking exposes this as not being a practical solution in any way shape or form.

Millions of chefs across the country? And you want to talk about critical thinking. Lord help me.

There are probably about 1 million "chefs" in the country, and of those a decent percentage will work in take away shops where their requirement for sharp knives is low, this will include "chefs" at wetherspoons who microwave literally everything or someone working in a chippy.

As another poster said, this is about the sale of sharp knives in the home, which are the most used in these crimes.

 

[V.O.]

If all knives just disappeared tomorrow, people like this would just start picking up a hammer instead to much the same effect. Really don't see what it would solve.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’ve conceded that scalpels are a bad example. But try engaging your brain… as a chef there’s god knows how many knives that require a point. How do you regulate that? Chef’s licence? There’s literally millions of chefs around the country, tens of millions if we are talking amateur - are you saying they can’t have pointed knives anymore? That’s one profession.

The tiniest amount of critical thinking exposes this as not being a practical solution in any way shape or form.

Don’t professional chefs get all their equipment from specific suppliers? I’ve had a look at some of their websites and felt kind of jealous about the quality/prices of the gear. Taking pointed knives out of the domestic “chef” supply chain seems like a potential small win without any significant downside. Obviously there would be nothing to stop a keen/determined home chef sourcing a boning knife (and I don’t think they should be prosecuted if they do) but if your average home kitchen doesn’t routinely have a load of pointed knives in it then that’s a good thing. The legislation should target the way these knives are sold, rather than ownership.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

If all knives just disappeared tomorrow, people like this would just start picking up a hammer instead to much the same effect. Really don't see what it would solve.

I think the hammer is less lethal instantly than a knife, still deadly of course but a knife is devastating.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If all knives just disappeared tomorrow, people like this would just start picking up a hammer instead to much the same effect. Really don't see what it would solve.

That‘s the same logic used to say why ban guns because people will stab each other instead? Killing someone with a hammer is much more difficult (and brutal) than sticking a knife into them. So less people will be willing/able to murder someone if (pointed) knives are less freely available.

 

[Badunk]

You have to be very angry to use a knife. There's loads of accounts of soldiers in WW1 who charged enemy lines, bayonets fixed, but who got within a few feet of an enemy soldier and shot them instead. It takes a level of emotional detachment to stab or slice another human being who's right there in front of you, maybe crying or begging for their lives.

 

[Pexbo]

Millions of chefs across the country? And you want to talk about critical thinking. Lord help me.

There are probably about 1 million "chefs" in the country, and of those a decent percentage will work in take away shops where their requirement for sharp knives is low, this will include "chefs" at wetherspoons who microwave literally everything or someone working in a chippy.

As another poster said, this is about the sale of sharp knives in the home, which are the most used in these crimes.

You’re arguing about rough figures that weren’t important enough to look up and choosing to ignore the actual argument here.


There are billions of pointy knives in circulation already.

Through various trades there will still be more pointy knives entering circulation. How do you propose that’s regulated and enforced?

If you have a non pointy knife and rub it against a wall for long enough it will have a stabby point.

If you break glass and tape it to a piece of wood you have an extremely stabby instrument.



These people aren’t getting angry, walking into Sainsbury’s, buying a knife and then stabbing people. They carry a knife because they made the decision to carry a knife, it’s premeditated and if you think “banning pointy knives” will have any impact on their ability to procure and carry a pointy knife you’re having a laugh. It’s beyond stupid.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You have to be very angry to use a knife. There's loads of accounts of soldiers in WW1 who charged enemy lines, bayonets fixed, but who got within a few feet of an enemy soldier and shot them instead. It takes a level of emotional detachment to stab or slice another human being who's right there in front of you, maybe crying or begging for their lives.

It’s all relative. In terms of how easy it might be (emotionally and practically) to kill another person a gun would be right out in front. Knife not far behind. Then all other methods after that. Plus knife and gun are much more suitable for an impulsive crime. You don’t rush out and poison someone who’s shagged your girlfriend.

 

[SilentWitness]

That‘s the same logic used to say why ban guns because people will stab each other instead?

Not really because guns have no use aside from killing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Top Google hit on domestic kitchen knives and knife crime. 74% of knife crimes committed using kitchen knives. If these knives aren’t in kitchens to begin with that’s a good thing, surely?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not really because guns have no use aside from killing.

The topic of the discussion right now is whether we really need pointed knives or not. Does a knife need to be long and pointed for any routine domestic use?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

You’re arguing about rough figures that weren’t important enough to look up and choosing to ignore the actual argument here.


There are billions of pointy knives in circulation already.

Through various trades there will still be more pointy knives entering circulation. How do you propose that’s regulated and enforced?

If you have a non pointy knife and rub it against a wall for long enough it will have a stabby point.

If you break glass and tape it to a piece of wood you have an extremely stabby instrument.



These people aren’t getting angry, walking into Sainsbury’s, buying a knife and then stabbing people. They carry a knife because they made the decision to carry a knife, it’s premeditated and if you think “banning pointy knives” will have any impact on their ability to procure and carry a pointy knife you’re having a laugh. It’s beyond stupid.

Dude, rough figures I downloaded this and had a look before replying - you're a joke. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan.../adhocs/009492chefsinlondonandtheuk2009to2017

These people aren’t getting angry, walking into Sainsbury’s, buying a knife and then stabbing people. They carry a knife because they made the decision to carry a knife, it’s premeditated and if you think “banning pointy knives” will have any impact on their ability to procure and carry a pointy knife you’re having a laugh. It’s beyond stupid.

OK Einstein, where did they get this knife? Hint - it'll likely be their own fecking kitchen

 

[Superden]

just looked on the daily mail site. you'd think a riot with almost 50 officers injured would be fairly prominent. and not pushed massively down the pecking order by kyle walker's mistress, amongst others. compare and contrast to how they reported on the leeds riots.

 

[Withnail]

Why wouldn't I?

If anything those people were from a centuries long persecuted minority with little understanding of what's going on.

These hate filled nazi worshippers are coordinated and organised. They've flooded social media with organised fake news using the same model as disinfo labs. They've hijacked a national tragedy and decided to use it to riot.

Don't be tricked into thinking these are just some lager lout neanderthals - the people behind them have launched an organised and sophisticated attempt to cause anarchy.

They seemed to have disappeared since being asked to clarify what the insinuation was by a few people.

Agree on the second point. It was the same in Ireland when there was a similar incident and it was used an excuse to riot. Sure look at all the videos form yesterday they're all laughing and having a great time fighting the cops. They're certainly don't seem to be upset or angry over the tragedy. And I've heard reports that most of those rioting came in from other areas, destroying the place is also really helpful up the locals, which is par for the course with these right wing mobs.

 

[Withnail]

Because they are stupid people who jump to conclusions.

If only that were true. It's way more insidious than that. It's the far right playbook every time there's an incident like this. Blame Muslim immigrants and call in the thugs for a 'peaceful' protest.

 

[noodlehair]

Absolute state of people in this country.

No better way to show respect to murdered children than by going on a violent destructive rampage and terrorising all the local people in the area they lived.

Police and legal system really needs tougher powers to deal with far right lunatics. Particularly the ones who organise this sort of crap.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They seemed to have disappeared since being asked to clarify what the insinuation was by a few people.

Agree on the second point. It was the same in Ireland when there was a similar incident and it was used an excuse to riot. Sure look at all the videos form yesterday they're all laughing and having a great time fighting the cops. They're certainly don't seem to be upset or angry over the tragedy. And I've heard reports that most of those rioting came in from other areas, destroying the place is also really helpful up the locals, which is par for the course with these right wing mobs.

Haven’t seen as much footage from these riots as the Dublin ones but I’d say there’s a big similarity between all three events in that they ended up getting out of control because bored young (mainly) men used social media to drum up numbers to help them wreck shit. Without having any particular political inclination or agenda.

That’s why a lot of the kids taking to the streets in Dublin were black or mixed race. Not the demographic of your typical racist shit stirrers. And I would say the majority of people actively taking part in these riots all fit in this same category. Bored, underprivileged young people looking for excitement and a chance to lash out at the police.

That’s the scary bit here. The way these riots can take on a momentum that’s separate to the issues that are supposed to have triggered them. And how easy it is to turn a spark into a massive conflagration. In these riots and in Dublin the far right definitely fanned the flames. In Leeds that didn’t happen. But the outcome was very similar.

 

[Superden]

heard quite a few comments on the media today about the police needing to release more information, more quickly, to avoid social media speculation etc - in this case and in the Nicola Bulley one for example.
why the feck should they.
cant people / media organisations just be patient and let the police get on with their job. news has now become like transfer gossip. and its driven purely by financial greed, which is fine when its comes to who we are signing as our new LB, but when people proclaim themselves as being some kind of modern knights in shining armour, when in fact they are just grifters, then it stinks. (actual knights were more often than not grifters too, cf the knights templar fortune).

 

[F-Red]

These people aren’t getting angry, walking into Sainsbury’s, buying a knife and then stabbing people. They carry a knife because they made the decision to carry a knife, it’s premeditated and if you think “banning pointy knives” will have any impact on their ability to procure and carry a pointy knife you’re having a laugh. It’s beyond stupid.

There's certainly more that retail can be doing, when I used to run a local retailer in the Wirral we would get regular checks from the police for a variety of age related test purchases, knives being the most obvious one for that business (hardware store, primarily Stanley knives).

Avon & Somerset published their own findings recently which weren't great reading - https://www.avonandsomerset.police....en-as-young-as-13-in-test-purchase-operation/

Until we get to a point where the supply element is at least under control, and by control I mean prosecuting retailers that sell to people under the age, then it's difficult to focus on all the other areas of trying to solve knife crime which need much wider societal solutions in place.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Well I do not expect Tommy Robinson to be a voice of reason, but news channels should be held accountable for false information if it's specially leads to major riots. Did GB news blame it on muslims?

Yeah gave a name of someone they said came over on a boat last month and was on the MI6 watch list, even though it's MI5 that deal with counter terrorism in the UK.

 

[Carl]

Why are they attacking a mosque when Islam has absolutely nothing to do with this?

Because it does, but it's being deliberately withheld. Apparently.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Because it does, but it's being deliberately withheld. Apparently.

It’s probably worth stressing that even if this lad was a jihadist shouting Allah Akbar when he stabbed those kids it would still be a disgusting response to take to the streets and attack mosques.

 

[Red in STL]

Because they are stupid people who jump to conclusions.

They aren't jumping to conclusions, it's an excuse to have a riot

 

[Wibble]

How can women have zero impact on societal norms?

The can't but. You are missing point. Many things are social norms and have many different effects. Suggesting that women set the norms that get them killed is a bit silly and just victim blaming.

 

[buchansleftleg]

Yeah gave a name of someone they said came over on a boat last month and was on the MI6 watch list, even though it's MI5 that deal with counter terrorism in the UK.

They widely publicised a social media post from a "channel3now" feed which has no press credentials, no website and is basically a social AI media click engine based in the states....so never in a million years going to be a good source - and had an obvious flaw in the content about MI6.

Responsible local and mainstream journalists kept his name suppressed even though they would have had his name and details within minutes. His address was locked down about 15 minutes after the attack and took about 4 minutes to find via google earth / streetview once footage of the police arriving was released.

What has given me the most hope in this is locals helping to fix the wall of the mosque. Not only will that build bridges in the community but it shows up what organisations like EDL are all about.

They create destruction based on rumours and falsehoods - in reality exactly the same beasts that they claim to be protecting us from - extremists with a flawed outlook, buoyed by false conspiracies / ideologies and a thirst for violence. They are everything they claim to be against and are the worst type of scum.

 

[pierrethesnack]

Three children dead but the problem is obviously the prevalence of kitchen knives, islamophobia, racism, men, and a damaged mosque. Brilliant.