Southgate deserves another few tournaments.

Reapersoul20 said:
No. In my day, England would be delighted with back-to-back finals
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These kids are spoilt. In my time growing up we Graham Taylor's disastrous Euro 92, then us not qualifying for 94.

Then have a brief "purple patch" with Venables but still lose to Germany on penalties at Euro 96 semis.

Hoddle followed with a bit of promise, but got knocked out by Argies in the 2nd round at France 98. Again losing on penalties with Beckham getting sent off.

2000 was a poor tournament, getting knocked out in round 1 with Keegan in charge.

In 2002, 2004, and 2006, the Sven years, we became a quarter-final team. We lost to a great Brazil side and were then knocked out twice by Portugal on penalties.

2008 we didn't even qualify. 2010, I'd rather not remember that one with Capello.

So, if you told me in 2010 that England would reach a semi-final in the World Cup and two Euro finals in a row, I wouldn't believe you.

I don't like his playing style, but he's doing something right. Maybe we need a slight tweak. Either way, Southgate deserves all the props. Especially as a failed club manager. It's one of the rare few times I've seen failing upward work. Good on him!
 
the chameleon said:
I don't like his playing style, but he's doing something right. Maybe we need a slight tweak. Either way, Southgate deserves all the props. Especially as a failed club manager. It's one of the rare few times I've seen failing upward work. Good on him!
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Doing something right = getting remarkably easy draws, tournament after tournament?
Because really, there’s not much more than this to it.
Can you imagine this Euros 2024 England team beating 2002 Brazil, 1998 Argentina or 2004-2006 Portugal? 2010 Germany?
I don’t.
 
the chameleon said:
These kids are spoilt. In my time growing up we Graham Taylor's disastrous Euro 92, then us not qualifying for 94.

Then have a brief "purple patch" with Venables but still lose to Germany on penalties at Euro 96 semis.

Hoddle followed with a bit of promise, but got knocked out by Argies in the 2nd round at France 98. Again losing on penalties with Beckham getting sent off.

2000 was a poor tournament, getting knocked out in round 1 with Keegan in charge.

In 2002, 2004, and 2006, the Sven years, we became a quarter-final team. We lost to a great Brazil side and were then knocked out twice by Portugal on penalties.

2008 we didn't even qualify. 2010, I'd rather not remember that one with Capello.

So, if you told me in 2010 that England would reach a semi-final in the World Cup and two Euro finals in a row, I wouldn't believe you.

I don't like his playing style, but he's doing something right. Maybe we need a slight tweak. Either way, Southgate deserves all the props. Especially as a failed club manager. It's one of the rare few times I've seen failing upward work. Good on him!
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I can't disagree with the points you've made but I think Southgate has hit that brick wall. Has his team evolved since the loss to Italy? I don't think so. I think he is risk-averse but he has had luck on his side for this tournament. It was piss or get off the pot time yesterday and yet we were never on the front foot. We had two mobile forwards on the bench, as well as Palmer whose skills almost turned the game in England's favour. If only he'd benched Kane and maybe Foden and started Palmer and Watkins/Toney. If only he had attacked from the kick off instead of allowing Spain to take control and dictate the tempo of the game.

I think Southgate has taken England as far as he can. He doesn't seem able to change his way of thinking and it is now time for a new man to take this bunch of talented players to the next level. This has been the best crop of young English players in years and it would be a shame if the continued to play harnessed to a yoke that stifles them. Thank him, give him a knighthood, and move on.
 
the chameleon said:
These kids are spoilt. In my time growing up we Graham Taylor's disastrous Euro 92, then us not qualifying for 94.

Then have a brief "purple patch" with Venables but still lose to Germany on penalties at Euro 96 semis.

Hoddle followed with a bit of promise, but got knocked out by Argies in the 2nd round at France 98. Again losing on penalties with Beckham getting sent off.

2000 was a poor tournament, getting knocked out in round 1 with Keegan in charge.

In 2002, 2004, and 2006, the Sven years, we became a quarter-final team. We lost to a great Brazil side and were then knocked out twice by Portugal on penalties.

2008 we didn't even qualify. 2010, I'd rather not remember that one with Capello.

So, if you told me in 2010 that England would reach a semi-final in the World Cup and two Euro finals in a row, I wouldn't believe you.

I don't like his playing style, but he's doing something right. Maybe we need a slight tweak. Either way, Southgate deserves all the props. Especially as a failed club manager. It's one of the rare few times I've seen failing upward work. Good on him!
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I'd go further than that. England didnt even qualify for any tournaments in the 70s. They got to the second round in the 1982 World Cup and Quarter finals on the 1986 World Cup. They had a disastrous 1988 and 1992 Euros. The only highlight I remember was the 1990 World Cup semi final and Euro 96 semi final. Those players who played on those two tournaments are treated like England legends. Southgate has pissed on the last 50 years and he is being treated like a joke!
 
Results wise he's done well but man his brand off football is hell boring.
 
Lets just sack him for crying out loud. He's had his chance, he's done well, but we need to be better than what he's serving up. He's changed the culture for the better 100%, brought us belief that we can reach finals and compete, but he's not got the capability to bring out the best in this team.

Lets try a new manager for 4-6 years and if we regress, play worse then we can always rehire Gareth then. :angel:
 
Reapersoul20 said:
He has proven himself now, whiskers away from a knighthood. There is no doubt in my mind he's up to the job. I think England go on to take it if the referee plays the proper amount of injury time.
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United fans slagging off Southgate for all of his failings when we’ve got our very own Southgate in charge! Starting pre-season today just like last season. Just like England, we’re stuck in a cycle of failure too!
 
Roy'sMagicHat said:
United fans slagging off Southgate for all of his failings when we’ve got our very own Southgate in charge! Starting pre-season today just like last season. Just like England, we’re stuck in a cycle of failure too!
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2 matches ago we won the FA cup
 
Roy'sMagicHat said:
United fans slagging off Southgate for all of his failings when we’ve got our very own Southgate in charge! Starting pre-season today just like last season. Just like England, we’re stuck in a cycle of failure too!
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Southgate has won something with England? I don't rate ETH too highly but he is a far better coach than Southgate.
 
James_42 said:
Southgate has won something with England? I don't rate ETH too highly but he is a far better coach than Southgate.
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They’re both rubbish managers.

It’s just funny seeing people slagging off Southgate when our own manager ain’t much better.

Our rivals are just delighted we stuck with ETH just like England’s haters want England to stick with Southgate.
 
Roy'sMagicHat said:
The FA Cup! Roberto Martinez even managed one of those. It’s not a big achievement for a club like United regardless of who you beat in a final.
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You're right, with Southgate at the helm we could have loftier goals like losing in a few finals :devil:
 
I don't think he does.
Any anti-English football NT feelings aside, the main reason I was happy England didn't win was to stop this charlatan of a manager being lauded as a managerial messiah. He's not. In the main, he's extremely lucky.
I still think in the last 3 tournaments that Southgate has made the England players less than the sum of their parts. Their success has come from the players finding a way to win despite Southgate and some of the easiest draws ever in international competition. A more skilled manager could easily have had England on back to back EUROS wins and serious contenders for the World Cup. Not this clown.
His tactics are awful. England will always get so far, their range of attacking talent is fantastic at the present. But think back to earlier in the tournament and all the criticism he received - it was entirely justified. The revisionism that went on because England progressed to the final was astounding. But this was despite Southgate not because of him. I actually applaud the players because somehow they dragged England to the final despite Southgate.
This is the man who thinks England's biggest problem is not replacing Kalvin Phillips- WTF is he on about. He's clueless.
For those if you supporting England who want him to stay, you need your head looking at. You'll never reach your potential with him in charge. As a Scot and someone who does not want England to win anything, that's why I'm hoping he stays on, because if you found the right coach, England could be scarily good.
Thankfully Spain won and, at least for now, its better to be a talented manager than perhaps the luckiest one to ever walk the Earth.
 
the chameleon said:
These kids are spoilt. In my time growing up we Graham Taylor's disastrous Euro 92, then us not qualifying for 94.

Then have a brief "purple patch" with Venables but still lose to Germany on penalties at Euro 96 semis.

Hoddle followed with a bit of promise, but got knocked out by Argies in the 2nd round at France 98. Again losing on penalties with Beckham getting sent off.

2000 was a poor tournament, getting knocked out in round 1 with Keegan in charge.

In 2002, 2004, and 2006, the Sven years, we became a quarter-final team. We lost to a great Brazil side and were then knocked out twice by Portugal on penalties.

2008 we didn't even qualify. 2010, I'd rather not remember that one with Capello.

So, if you told me in 2010 that England would reach a semi-final in the World Cup and two Euro finals in a row, I wouldn't believe you.

I don't like his playing style, but he's doing something right. Maybe we need a slight tweak. Either way, Southgate deserves all the props. Especially as a failed club manager. It's one of the rare few times I've seen failing upward work. Good on him!
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He’s not won anything with one of the strongest teams and extremely easy draws in competitions, how is that doing something right?
 
Josh 76 said:
I'd go further than that. England didnt even qualify for any tournaments in the 70s. They got to the second round in the 1982 World Cup and Quarter finals on the 1986 World Cup. They had a disastrous 1988 and 1992 Euros. The only highlight I remember was the 1990 World Cup semi final and Euro 96 semi final. Those players who played on those two tournaments are treated like England legends. Southgate has pissed on the last 50 years and he is being treated like a joke!
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Context. Southgate has had some of the best English players alongside the decline of top nations. We’ve also had easy, yes easy draws at tournaments. It would be hard not to beat the teams we played in the final they were all crap bar the swiss.
 
Spaghetti Bolognese said:
I find it hard to believe that Palmer v Spain has a lower XG than the Bellingham scissor kick.
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Bellingham's shot was much closer to the goal, with maybe 2 defenders between him the net (as opposed to 4 for Palmer) and he was much more central. So more of the things that are measured for a higher xG were in favour of Bellingham's shot.
 
the chameleon said:
These kids are spoilt. In my time growing up we Graham Taylor's disastrous Euro 92, then us not qualifying for 94.

Then have a brief "purple patch" with Venables but still lose to Germany on penalties at Euro 96 semis.

Hoddle followed with a bit of promise, but got knocked out by Argies in the 2nd round at France 98. Again losing on penalties with Beckham getting sent off.

2000 was a poor tournament, getting knocked out in round 1 with Keegan in charge.

In 2002, 2004, and 2006, the Sven years, we became a quarter-final team. We lost to a great Brazil side and were then knocked out twice by Portugal on penalties.

2008 we didn't even qualify. 2010, I'd rather not remember that one with Capello.

So, if you told me in 2010 that England would reach a semi-final in the World Cup and two Euro finals in a row, I wouldn't believe you.

I don't like his playing style, but he's doing something right. Maybe we need a slight tweak. Either way, Southgate deserves all the props. Especially as a failed club manager. It's one of the rare few times I've seen failing upward work. Good on him!
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On the other hand, it's probably not since 2004 that England have actually played exciting football in a tournament-ridiculously unlucky to lose to France after dominating them in the first game, smashed the next two games and had Wayne Rooney, who looked the player of the tournament. Can't help but think if Sven's luck had been anything like Southgate's in terms of the draws then he might have done better, although 2006 was pretty crap from what I remember.
 
mintyred said:
Context. Southgate has had some of the best English players alongside the decline of top nations. We’ve also had easy, yes easy draws at tournaments. It would be hard not to beat the teams we played in the final they were all crap bar the swiss.
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The 4 teams he has lost to in the last 4 competitions. The greatest ever Croatia team 2-1 in the semi Final of the World Cup. Italy (serial winners) on pens in the final of the Euros. France (World Champions) 2-1, with Kane missing a pen. Spain (the best team in the competition) in another final.

All these games were close and could have gone either way. I watched Italia 90, and England were shocking. Struggled to get out of the group and scrapped past Belgium and Cameroon in extra time. Euro 96 was the same. A good 45 minutes against the Dutch and the rest was very similar to what we are seeing now.

People will say Southgate has had great players, well the players England had in Italia 90 and Euro 96 were no mugs. Then there was the golden generation, which were much better than what we have now, and they did feck all.

Southgate has played some great football, but we just look at the bad games. He should have stuck with two fast wingers, with Kane dropping, but he bottled It by trying to pick the "best" players rather than playing the system that had worked for him.
 
Josh 76 said:
The 4 teams he has lost to in the last 4 competitions. The greatest ever Croatia team 2-1 in the semi Final of the World Cup. Italy (serial winners) on pens in the final of the Euros. France (World Champions) 2-1, with Kane missing a pen. Spain (the best team in the competition) in another final.

All these games were close and could have gone either way. I watched Italia 90, and England were shocking. Struggled to get out of the group and scrapped past Belgium and Cameroon in extra time. Euro 96 was the same. A good 45 minutes against the Dutch and the rest was very similar to what we are seeing now.

People will say Southgate has had great players, well the players England had in Italia 90 and Euro 96 were no mugs. Then there was the golden generation, which were much better than what we have now, and they did feck all.

Southgate has played some great football, but we just look at the bad games. He should have stuck with two fast wingers, with Kane dropping, but he bottled It by trying to pick the "best" players rather than playing the system that had worked for him.
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What games were these? I have watched England since the group stage and 1 thing constant was England's inability to create good chances or play good football. They were like the lesser talented version of france l, tumescent football, scraping by on individual moments.

If Southgate could have gotten them to play better more watchable football, there would be fewer questions on losing, you can't bore people and lose, you have to pick one.
 
He made misstake not taking leaders with him and not having B-plan. He was coward for not taking out Rice and Bellingham. Or Kane and Saka.
However, coming to final with lot of average players should give him some credit.
 
Southgate is gone now, so all the people who think nearly winning a tournament with some of the best players is good are distraught. Instead of a PR-driven manager, how about a football manager? I think Potter would be a good fit as he's a likeable guy and he has tactics. As for Southgate, I hope he doesn't manage again, he'd be better behind the scenes with his skillset. I'm actually positive about the future of England as we can't do any worse manager-wise.
 
mintyred said:
Southgate is gone now, so all the people who think nearly winning a tournament with some of the best players is good are distraught. Instead of a PR-driven manager, how about a football manager? I think Potter would be a good fit as he's a likeable guy and he has tactics. As for Southgate, I hope he doesn't manage again, he'd be better behind the scenes with his skillset. I'm actually positive about the future of England as we can't do any worse manager-wise.
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Potter I agree, if it has to be a English manager. Tactically, he's not scared to make changes and will actually make England a better team on the pitch, rather than the keep 10 men behind the ball and hope for a bit of magic from one of your star players.
 
Josh 76 said:
The 4 teams he has lost to in the last 4 competitions. The greatest ever Croatia team 2-1 in the semi Final of the World Cup. Italy (serial winners) on pens in the final of the Euros. France (World Champions) 2-1, with Kane missing a pen. Spain (the best team in the competition) in another final.

All these games were close and could have gone either way. I watched Italia 90, and England were shocking. Struggled to get out of the group and scrapped past Belgium and Cameroon in extra time. Euro 96 was the same. A good 45 minutes against the Dutch and the rest was very similar to what we are seeing now.

People will say Southgate has had great players, well the players England had in Italia 90 and Euro 96 were no mugs. Then there was the golden generation, which were much better than what we have now, and they did feck all.

Southgate has played some great football, but we just look at the bad games. He should have stuck with two fast wingers, with Kane dropping, but he bottled It by trying to pick the "best" players rather than playing the system that had worked for him.
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The best Croatia team isn't a team England should have lost to, that team had lots of flaws which is why it got destroyed in the final. That Italy team weren't serial winners, they've struggled for years due to a lack of quality. They can't even qualify for the WC. France, that's on Kane for the most part. Spain, they aren't on another level, we showed them too much respect as when we went 1 down we started to create chances.

As soon as we played anyone good we lost. I can't think of many great games aside from against developing nations that have bigger issues to think about than football. Just because other England managers failed doesn't mean it's ok for Southgate to be a loser too. What sort of mentality is that? In this tournament, we basically played friendlies until the final and we didn't turn up until the last 10 minutes.
 
I agree Southgate had gone as far as his personality would allow him, it has led to yet another 'final fence' disappointment, but he has turned the England set-up into one which can now compete effectively in tournament football.

Southgate's own risk averse nature was always going to be his 'Achilles heel' and I am sure he knows it; he knows to win a top prize a manager has to take risks, mainly in terms of timings, but he knows he cannot do that, will never be comfortable doing that, and so knows he now has to go.

Potter may well be the man to replace him, he is a risk manager and has proved his worth in the big time, but he has been on the market now for a while and not snapped up? Maybe he can build on what Southgate has established behind the scenes and go that 'extra-yard'.

Hope springs eternal
 
The country is that used to abject failure that getting further in tournaments by virtue of lucky draws blinded everyone to some of the worst game management you will ever see.

His legacy for me will always be costing the country the best chance it will ever have again at winning a major tournament, by gambling on a penalty shootout with a bunch of players who'd never experienced a penalty shootout before.

I understood keeping him after just because it was a step up from losing to Iceland, but then since then there have been multiple occasions when he should have been sacked, which included losing to Iceland.

I didn't really get why we were billed as favourites before the tournament because when over the past 6 years has Southgate had England playing football that would sugges they are the best national team in Europe? Mostly he's been doing stuff like losing 4-1 to Hungary.
 
noodlehair said:
The country is that used to abject failure that getting further in tournaments by virtue of lucky draws blinded everyone to some of the worst game management you will ever see.

His legacy for me will always be costing the country the best chance it will ever have again at winning a major tournament, by gambling on a penalty shootout with a bunch of players who'd never experienced a penalty shootout before.

I understood keeping him after just because it was a step up from losing to Iceland, but then since then there have been multiple occasions when he should have been sacked, which included losing to Iceland.

I didn't really get why we were billed as favourites before the tournament because when over the past 6 years has Southgate had England playing football that would sugges they are the best national team in Europe? Mostly he's been doing stuff like losing 4-1 to Hungary.
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Spot on. The favourites thing was due to the quality of the squad and loads of people heavily backing England. The bookies must have secretly been celebrating England losing, as they were such shit value before the tournament started. Our odds then shortened further because we were once again on the easiest side of the draw, so only one of Spain/Germany/France/Portugal could reach the final.

Southgate should have gone after the last Euros (I’d have fecked him off in 2018 but can see the argument for keeping him). Eight years is mental.
 
Spark said:
Spot on. The favourites thing was due to the quality of the squad and loads of people heavily backing England. The bookies must have secretly been celebrating England losing, as they were such shit value before the tournament started. Our odds then shortened further because we were once again on the easiest side of the draw, so only one of Spain/Germany/France/Portugal could reach the final.

Southgate should have gone after the last Euros (I’d have fecked him off in 2018 but can see the argument for keeping him). Eight years is mental.
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Yeah I don't disagree. I was baffled he survived the world cup because apart from anything else the management vs France was just plain unprofessional. Basically put bringing on his mate/sympathy card ahead of what was best for the team.

People don't seem to pay attention to the opponents or the performances but both are quite important if the aim is to actually win something. Its rare a team who can never look like a cohesive team or control a game ends up winning a tournament. And that was maybe more acceptable in the days of having to pick whether Welbeck or Andy Carrol should start or gambling onthe fitness of Gareth Barry. Southgate actually has a surplus of good players to pick from, many of who are coached to a world class level at their clubs.

Getting to a final of the Euros where your best opponent is an extremely average Netherlands side/Slovakia also says more about the rubbish format of the Euros than it does about anyone's management. France and Germany both looked much better vs Spain than England did and you'd suspect Portugal would have made a better fist of it as well.
 
mintyred said:
He’s not won anything with one of the strongest teams and extremely easy draws in competitions, how is that doing something right?
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The golden generation failed, too. We chose Rio, Terry, Campbell, Cole, and Neville. The midfield was also better in 2004, misused. One this team has is more players who run with the ball.

Also, the 98 bunch was also top class, perfect mix of youth and experience, plenty of strikers, solid midfielders.

We've always had top class players. Yes, other nations are weaker.

But, you can't take away two Euro finals and a world cup semi-final.

Do I think we need a more attack-minded manager to use these players next? Yes, indeed! But all said and done, Southgate has done a grand job!

Also, you say he's not won anything, England haven't won anything since 1966. My comparison of Southgate is purely in the context of other England managers, the fact is that he has done more than everyone bar Ramsey!
 
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