Society of Black Lawyers

NinjaFletch

Full Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
19,818
Let's talk about them, seeing as they crave it.

Firstly, is anyone in any doubt that they're an inherently racist organisation?

Secondly, is it possible to report them for wasting police time if they do report Tottenham? I mean reporting Spurs fans for being racist towards...themselves. You couldn't make it up.

What a laughing stock.
 
I heard that earlier. Strange sequence of events really.
Press Association
The Guardian, Wednesday 7 November 2012 15.13 GMT

Tottenham have defended their supporters against claims of antisemitism made by the Society of Black Lawyers. Photograph: Alberto Martin/EPA
Tottenham have defended their supporters after the Society of Black Lawyers threatened to make a complaint to police over claims that antisemitic abuse is taking place at White Hart Lane.

Although widely recognised as an insult, some Spurs fans proudly call themselves "Yids" or "Yiddos" and chant "Yid army" at games as an act of defiance to those who discriminate against the club's large Jewish following.

Peter Herbert, who chairs the Society of Black Lawyers, believes this is not acceptable. He said: "It does not make a difference if it is Tottenham fans doing the chants or away fans – if they continue to do it we will report it to the police. There has to be zero tolerance and if that catches out Spurs then so be it."

Asked about Jewish fans themselves singing the chant, he said: "That's not acceptable either."

He said: " If neither Tottenham FC nor the FA are willing to take a stand then SBL will report the matter to the Metropolitan Police Service for investigation and, if necessary, prosecution. The report will be made if this behaviour does not cease by 20 November. We will have monitors in attendance to observe what occurs."

Spurs responded to Herbert's claims by defending their fans and pointing out that their fans have in the past been subjected to taunts about the Holocaust. "Our position on this topic is very clear," a Tottenham statement read. "The club does not tolerate any form of racist or abusive chanting. Our guiding principle in respect of the 'Y-word' is based on the point of law itself – the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used – if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence. This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date. "Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect antisemitic abuse. They do not use the term to others to cause any offence, they use it as a chant amongst themselves.

"The club believes that real antisemitic abuse such as hissing to simulate the noise of gas chambers is the real evil and the real offence. We believe this is the area that requires a determined and concerted effort from all parties and where we seek greater support to eradicate."

Racism has been a major issue within the game over the last few weeks. The Chelsea captain John Terry was banned for four matches for racially abusing Anton Ferdinand – although he was cleared of criminal charges – and two weeks ago the European champions became embroiled in another race row when they accused the referee Mark Clattenburg of using "inappropriate language" towards their midfielder Mikel John Obi .

The language Clattenburg is alleged to have used is understood to have been interpreted as being racist. The referee denies the claim.
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What an incredibly stupid group.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Let's talk about them, seeing as they crave it.

Firstly, is anyone in any doubt that they're an inherently racist organisation?

Secondly, is it possible to report them for wasting police time if they do report Tottenham? I mean reporting Spurs fans for being racist towards...themselves. You couldn't make it up.

What a laughing stock.
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Technically they're not being racist towards themselves though are they? They're being racist to Jews. You telling me all (or even most) of Tottenham's fanbase is Jewish? You're deluding yourself if so, and you're equally deluded if you don't think there are Jewish Spurs fans who are highly offended by the 'Yid Army' chants.
 
Steven Seagull said:
I heard that earlier. Strange sequence of events really.
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You missed out the best bit.

"If you had a group of Afro-Caribbean supporters using the 'N-word', even as a 'defence mechanism', it would clearly be completely unacceptable"

What a corker, implying that Black people don't refer to each other as 'niggas'

He can't be for real.
 
They should be concentrating on the disgraceful hissing, not the 'Yid Army' stuff.
 
I heard that leader chap on the radio and he sounded like a spoof of a stereotype. I know he was trying to do some good, but he was spouting some absolute nonsense, especially about the "Society of Black Footballers" they want to create.
 
NinjaFletch said:
You missed out the best bit.

"If you had a group of Afro-Caribbean supporters using the 'N-word', even as a 'defence mechanism', it would clearly be completely unacceptable"

What a corker, implying that Black people don't refer to each other as 'niggas'

He can't be for real.
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Still missing the point. Spurs' fans aren't all Jewish. I'd imagine it's less than half.
 
Liam147 said:
Technically they're not being racist towards themselves though are they? They're being racist to Jews. You telling me all (or even most) of Tottenham's fanbase is Jewish? You're deluding yourself if so, and you're equally deluded if you don't think there are Jewish Spurs fans who are highly offended by the 'Yid Army' chants.
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Yeah, but I don't think you understand that the reason they chant 'Yid Army' is as a show of solidarity with the Jewish Spurs fans who are subjected to actual anti-semitic abuse.

I don't think you understand the history of Spurs, nor the treatment their fans have got/get from rival fans.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Yeah, but I don't think you understand that the reason they chant 'Yid Army' is as a show of solidarity with the Jewish Spurs fans who are subjected to actual anti-semitic abuse.

I don't think you understand the history of Spurs, nor the treatment their fans have got/get from rival fans.
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Right then, using David Baddiel's analogy, imagine that United had a largely black fanbase, and so in order to dish out abuse, rival fans would make monkey noises at us and call 'coons' or whatever. So, in order to 'defend' themselves, the black fans would reply in kind, referring to themselves as the 'coon army'. Then all the white United fans latched on. How is it in any way acceptable for thousands of white people to be chanting 'coon army'?

I can't imagine many people would go up to their black mate and address them as 'nigger'. "It's okay though, we're friends" doesn't work as justification.
 
I bet the members of this 'society' all a solicitors at shite like Rapid / Lawyers4U etc.

No self-respecting lawyer (solicitor/barrister) would be associated with these clowns.
 
Why have they become so active the past 2 weeks? Where were they when Anton and Pat had their racism allegations?

Whilst I agree with their intentions to stop racism I don't like their tactics. They reported Clattenberg without knowing the full details of what had happened and perhaps they should speak to spurs fans and ask why they chant those things before making such comments to the press.
 
ha_rooney said:
Why have they become so active the past 2 weeks? Where were they when Anton and Pat had their racism allegations?

Whilst I agree with their intentions to stop racism I don't like their tactics. They reported Clattenberg without knowing the full details of what had happened and perhaps they should speak to spurs fans and ask why they chant those things before making such comments to the press.
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Reporting Clattenburg without foundation was a poor move.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Monkey noises are not the equivalent of chanting Yid Army, are they?
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Well, Yid comes from the Yiddish language while monkey noises are basically calling black people 'less than human' so they aren't equivalent.

It's more like the word 'p*ki'. Its not right because it has negative connotations and a history of being linked to racial violence and people who use it should be ashamed, but it's a league below monkey noises in modern day racism IMO
 
My wife's a white lawyer, I've asked her to make an application to join the society.
 
Liam147 said:
Right then, using David Baddiel's analogy, imagine that United had a largely black fanbase, and so in order to dish out abuse, rival fans would make monkey noises at us and call 'coons' or whatever. So, in order to 'defend' themselves, the black fans would reply in kind, referring to themselves as the 'coon army'. Then all the white United fans latched on. How is it in any way acceptable for thousands of white people to be chanting 'coon army'?

I can't imagine many people would go up to their black mate and address them as 'nigger'. "It's okay though, we're friends" doesn't work as justification.
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So you're saying that the word 'Yid' is racist regardless of context, intention or meaning?

It's an absolute nonsense to suggest that a show of solidarity and support can be branded as 'racist' because of the use of a word.

Thats the problem we have as a society with issues of racism, Spurs fans are being the opposite of racist. They're standing side by side with their Jewsish supporters in the face of anti-semitism, they're embracing their heritage and they're getting shot down by idiots like this Mr Herbert for the choice of the word. A word that was not chosen, but adopted specifically because it was the term of racist abuse directed towards their Jewish fan base.

Deal with the shit like the hissing noises first, and you might find that Tottenham fans don't need to defend themselves with the chant.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Let's talk about them, seeing as they crave it.

Firstly, is anyone in any doubt that they're an inherently racist organisation?

Secondly, is it possible to report them for wasting police time if they do report Tottenham? I mean reporting Spurs fans for being racist towards...themselves. You couldn't make it up.

What a laughing stock.
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I'm interested whether you know anything about them, or whether you're just talking out of your arse?

They exist to assist black lawyers in an industry where there are clear issues regarding "representation" from various racial groups. I see no problem with that, nor are they "inherently racist".

They should probably steer clear of football but thy raise an interesting point. On another three people were very clear on what should happen to players indulging in unacceptable discriminatory behaviour. The points this particular group are making expose huge double standards in the argument. It seems if I am a spurs fan it's alright or me to sing about Jews, even if I'm not Jewish, but if I'm white I can't use a word that a black person can because thats not only unacceptable but probably a criminal offence.

Things like that make it difficult to police. The Chelsea monkey chant cretin is clearly due a severe punishment but stuff like the above makes it hard to know where you draw the line, so it's a fair point to make, albeit nothing can really be done to resolve it.
 
RedRover said:
I'm interested whether you know anything about them, or whether you're just talking out of your arse?

They exist to assist black lawyers in an industry where there are clear issues regarding "representation" from various racial groups. I see no problem with that, nor are they "inherently racist".
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A society specifically for the promotion and advantage of one racial group over another?

It's at best 'positive' discrimination, at worst, well, could you imagine the reaction to a society of White lawyers?

To clarify, I have no problem with them acting as a union for a minority group that may or may not (I don't know the ins and the outs of the situation) need extra support but the second they use the fact that they are an all black union to put pressure on people outside of that sphere they become racist, for my money.
 
I don't agree that the Society of Black Lawyers is an inherently racist organisation. Minority groups are perfectly entitled to form groups/unions to protect their interests/further their causes.

And as for the Spurs/anti-Semitism claims, the club (with its strong Jewish heritage), or rather its fanbase, is entitled to reclaim anti-Semitic labels to use on themselves, providing the Jewish supporters are okay with this.
 
Someone email them a link to Hectic's hip hop thread, all their heads will explode.
 
NinjaFletch said:
So you're saying that the word 'Yid' is racist regardless of context, intention or meaning?

It's an absolute nonsense to suggest that a show of solidarity and support can be branded as 'racist' because of the use of a word.

Thats the problem we have as a society with issues of racism, Spurs fans are being the opposite of racist. They're standing side by side with their Jewsish supporters in the face of anti-semitism, they're embracing their heritage and they're getting shot down by idiots like this Mr Herbert for the choice of the word. A word that was not chosen, but adopted specifically because it was the term of racist abuse directed towards their Jewish fan base.

Deal with the shit like the hissing noises first, and you might find that Tottenham fans don't need to defend themselves with the chant.
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Absolutely not, watch. Yid. There, who's that offended? No one, but when you're chanting it at a football match, it can certainly be construed as offensive. These Spurs fans chanting it are not Jewish. I refer you back to my previous post, imagine if we used to have a large black fanbase, but we don't any more, would it still be okay to chant 'coon army'?

I dare say that you don't treat the word 'yid' as seriously as you would 'paki' or 'nigger', which is easily done. I certainly don't, but then, I don't know any Jewish people.

Even if the Spurs fans chant it without meaning to cause offence, does it not become an issue when Jewish Spurs fans are taking offence to it? People often use asterisks when spelling words like 'nigger', as they know that people don't even want to see the word, regardless of the context, is it not at all possible that there are Spurs fans who feel the same way about 'yid'?
 
Liam147 said:
Absolutely not, watch. Yid. There, who's that offended? No one, but when you're chanting it at a football match, it can certainly be construed as offensive. These Spurs fans chanting it are not Jewish. I refer you back to my previous post, imagine if we used to have a large black fanbase, but we don't any more, would it still be okay to chant 'coon army'?

I dare say that you don't treat the word 'yid' as seriously as you would 'paki' or 'nigger', which is easily done. I certainly don't, but then, I don't know any Jewish people.

Even if the Spurs fans chant it without meaning to cause offence, does it not become an issue when Jewish Spurs fans are taking offence to it? People often use asterisks when spelling words like 'nigger', as they know that people don't even want to see the word, regardless of the context, is it not at all possible that there are Spurs fans who feel the same way about 'yid'?
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My boss is Jewish and a season ticket holder down at the lane, and he sings Yid army. As do many of them, have any of these Jewish folk who don't ever complained to the club?

Then again, they know why it's sung. You and the superhero league of black lawyers seem not to.
 
Liam147 said:
Absolutely not, watch. Yid. There, who's that offended? No one, but when you're chanting it at a football match, it can certainly be construed as offensive. These Spurs fans chanting it are not Jewish. I refer you back to my previous post, imagine if we used to have a large black fanbase, but we don't any more, would it still be okay to chant 'coon army'?

I dare say that you don't treat the word 'yid' as seriously as you would 'paki' or 'nigger', which is easily done. I certainly don't, but then, I don't know any Jewish people.

Even if the Spurs fans chant it without meaning to cause offence, does it not become an issue when Jewish Spurs fans are taking offence to it? People often use asterisks when spelling words like 'nigger', as they know that people don't even want to see the word, regardless of the context, is it not at all possible that there are Spurs fans who feel the same way about 'yid'?
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Whos saying Tottenham don't still have a large Jewish fan base?

Regardless, I think the whole issue is a mountain out of a molehill. Jewish Spurs fans aren't offended by it (and if your contention is that they are I'd like you to try and prove it), why would they be? It's a chant of acceptance and solidarity.

People will be offended by whatever they want to be, if people want to ignore the context and get offended by a word it's up to them. I actually think the 'Yid Army' chant is one of the more heartening race stories in football, but if people are looking to get upset by it then they will.
 
Liam147 said:
Technically they're not being racist towards themselves though are they? They're being racist to Jews. You telling me all (or even most) of Tottenham's fanbase is Jewish? You're deluding yourself if so, and you're equally deluded if you don't think there are Jewish Spurs fans who are highly offended by the 'Yid Army' chants.
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Every single Jewish Spurs fan I have ever met has been far more offended by the notion that other people will tell them what they're supposed to be offended by than by the phrase Yid army. Most of them that I've met love it.

Those that call it racist don't seem to understand the history of the word in the context of Tottenham fans and the anti-semitism that has been directed against Spurs fans for a long time. Focus on this while ignoring the hissing and holocaust songs that have been directed towards our fan base by Chelsea and West Ham fans.
 
Redlambs said:
My boss is Jewish and a season ticket holder down at the lane, and he sings Yid army. As do many of them, have any of these Jewish folk who don't ever complained to the club?

Then again, they know why it's sung. You and the superhero league of black lawyers seem not to.
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I get that some Jewish fans will sing it. I'm not denying that. I'm saying there are some who want, and do not like the chant. I can state this as a fact.

But no, obviously no one has ever reported it to the club, that's why there is absolutely no issue surrounding it.
 
africanspur said:
Every single Jewish Spurs fan I have ever met has been far more offended by the notion that other people will tell them what they're supposed to be offended by than by the phrase Yid army. Most of them that I've met love it.

Those that call it racist don't seem to understand the history of the word in the context of Tottenham fans and the anti-semitism that has been directed against Spurs fans for a long time. Focus on this while ignoring the hissing and holocaust songs that have been directed towards our fan base by Chelsea and West Ham fans.
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Exactly. I wonder who this mouthpiece of the justice league supports?
 
Are they really a society? I mean, do they live in their own little black lawyer town and stuff?

Or are they just some nutjob bloke called Peter?
 
Liam147 said:
I get that some Jewish fans will sing it. I'm not denying that. I'm saying there are some who want, and do not like the chant. I can state this as a fact.

But no, obviously no one has ever reported it to the club, that's why there is absolutely no issue surrounding it.
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How do you know this as a fact? Doesn't your second line negate that anyway?
 
Liam147 said:
Yid. There, who's that offended? No one...
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The truth is it affects different fans differently, much like the use of 'nigga' does to blacks. It really is very similar - 'yid' in Yiddish just means 'Jew', but it's also used much as you'd say 'one' or 'bloke'. "A yid came into my shop yesterday"... 'Nigga' is used by some African-Americans the same way.

My Jewish Spurs mates use it themselves at games and find it completely normal. They haven't grown up with anyone calling them Yids in a derogatory way. But the father of one of my mates grew up in the East End when it was a live insult, and he doesn't really go to WHL much anymore because he finds the whole thing quite unpleasant.

I can't see the point trying to police this sort of thing. A lot of Spurs fans don't even realise it has anything to do with Jews, they think it just means 'Spurs fan'. THe same's probably true of a lot of oppo fans who call them it. Clearly the meaning of the word has shifted, and it's only a few older Jewish fans who have a problem with it.
 
Plechazunga said:
The truth is it affects different fans differently, much like the use of 'nigga' does to blacks. It really is very similar - 'yid' in Yiddish just means 'Jew', but it's also used much as you'd say 'one' or 'bloke'. "A yid came into my shop yesterday"... 'Nigga' is used by some African-Americans the same way.

My Jewish Spurs mates use it themselves at games and find it completely normal. They haven't grown up with anyone calling them Yids in a derogatory way. But the father of one of my mates grew up in the East End when it was a live insult, and he doesn't really go to WHL much anymore because he finds the whole thing quite unpleasant.

I can't see the point trying to police this sort of thing. A lot of Spurs fans don't even realise it has anything to do with Jews, they think it just means 'Spurs fan'. THe same's probably true of a lot of oppo fans who call them it. Clearly the meaning of the word has shifted, and it's only a few older Jewish fans who have a problem with it.
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Have these Spurs grown up on Mars or in Saudi Arabia or something? Thought 'Yid' being derog. was common knowledge.
 
I just cannot believe that the Society are making more fuss about this than they are about the hissing. I'm loathe to accuse them of headline-seeking in a bid to raise their profile but, as a Society concerned with black people, why on earth are they getting involved in Jewish affairs? And David Baddiel may well be Jewish, but he's an Arsenal fan; enough said.
 
If they are ok with the yid thing then I'm guessing the spurs Auschwitz tune is acceptable banter.

Twats.
 
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