So where is Modric rated in best CM’s of all time ?

[Member 117152]

[

I think Kroos has become underrated compared to Modric. A lot of debating who was the better between Xavi and Modric as controlling midfielders, but imo Kroos was usually the more metronomic player in that Real Madrid team, and the one that really focused on providing a well executed foundation in terms of volume and accuracy of simple/medium difficulty passes. If you were comparing that midfield to the Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets one, i'd put Kroos closest to xavi in role and strengths.

I always preferred Kroos to Modric when they were at their peaks.

Kroos might be the best pure passer in the history of football as unlike Xavi who always kept it short Kroos not only has an equally good percentage but also the best long ball in the history of the game arguably on top,

Kroos took it to another level for passing but lacks some dribbling and close control Xavi had at times so it’s a draw.

It’s hard to pick any one of Xavi, iniesta, Modric, Kroos. All have their reasons to why they are the best mid of the modern era.

I watched Zidane recently and he gave the ball away a lot. Much more like Bruno at times than any of those four more modern ones. Zidane seems more of an attacker than traditional midfielder looking back.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

This is absolutely laughable. I'm actually amazed people are making this claim.

You showed 1 clip of a great pass. You can do that for every single player ever.

He literally has more assists in 1 season than Modric probably had in 4-5 seasons and you don't think Xavi was a penetrative passer

Xavi's passing is superior to Modric's in every aspect. He has a better controlled short passing game. He has a better pass switching play from 1 flank to another. He is better at incisive passes that break the lines through midfield and even for passes that take out a defensive line. His end product from passes is better as well. He had 30 assists in 1 season from central midfield. I don't think anyone in football history could manage that. Xavi's better from set pieces and can even 'ping' in a ball better than Modric if we're talking about crossing too.

I swear people on here think Xavi just passed it sideways to Messi and Iniesta and was just a passenger in that Spain/Barca side.

Also re: The Bayern demolition of Barcelona in 2013. Xavi wasn't great that game, but they played without a coach and Messi was injured.

Modric was outperformed by every single midfield unit arguably last season in their CL success. Outperformed numerous times in their 2018 success. I will say that Modric was excellent in their 2014 CL success and their 2017 success, but not on the basis of controlling games.

Real Madrid's CL success wasn't on the basis of their midfield controlling/dominating games.

This is a good discussion but I disagree with you on all of it.

Firstly, that Modric pass that I posted was literally one of the best assists of all time. To make it seem like an everyday occurrence is a bit disingenuous.

And saying "Xavi got loads of assists, particularly in one season" is a bit pointless. The mighty James Milner holds the single season CL record for assists for his 17/18 campaign (with 9). Nobody can claim that he's a better passer than Modric or Xavi. Context is important.

I also think that you try to downplay the effect that having prime Leo Messi of all people on your team will have on your assist record (I swear people on here think Xavi just passed it sideways to Messi and Iniesta) I mean....yes? A bit? That's Tiki-taka innit? You keep possession at all costs. And yes, I do believe that playing a 5 yard pass to feet to a guy who will dribble past a few players and score or curl it in from 30 yards is going to artificially inflate an assist record beyond what it should be anyway.

Also, if Messi being injured against Bayern was a major reason why Xavi failed to perform, then surely it's only fair to suggest that he made Xavi seem better than he was in the games that they did play together?

I watched all of Real's KO matches last year and I thought Modric was brilliant in all of them. Kroos was noticably terrible though, and that was always going to affect the team's performance.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

No way, Xavi had 20 assists in 08/09, many of them defence splitting passes, proper assists through passing in the middle of the pitch. It’s pretty much the opposite of what you said. Modric is more ball retention, outside of a few exceptional eye catching passes. Xavi has twice as many assists as Modric.

One season. See James Milner example above.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I think Kroos has become underrated compared to Modric. A lot of debating who was the better between Xavi and Modric as controlling midfielders, but imo Kroos was usually the more metronomic player in that Real Madrid team, and the one that really focused on providing a well executed foundation in terms of volume and accuracy of simple/medium difficulty passes. If you were comparing that midfield to the Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets one, i'd put Kroos closest to xavi in role and strengths.

Yeah, Kroos at his peak was every bit as good as Modric, it’s just he’s dropped a level last 5 years and Modric has kept going, maybe even got better with age.

Also Kroos is a much better passer than Modric, greater range. On that skill alone he’s one of the greatest. But Modric is a better player overall because he’s quicker, smarter on the ball, better ball control and tight spaces.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

I think this is one of those 'missing the forest for the trees' situations.
People can claim that Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets always 'dominated' the midfield but the games were lost in other ways.
Meanwhile Modric/Kroos/Casemiro were 'dominated' but the games were won anyway.

But then we could just say "well what good is this definition of 'dominate.' It's not so good at telling me the likelihood of winning the big game."

The only season that you could say that Real were "dominated" was last year, and that's because Don Carlo persisted with a clearly (and sadly) past it Kroos instead of letting Camavinga start. Modric was excellent.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

One season. See James Milner example above.

It’s not one season, he has twice as many assists as Modric in La Liga. And 200+ career assists. Got nothing to do with Milner. I wonder if you ever watched Xavi play if you don’t think he was capable of penetrative passing. Eye test, stats, results. Everything backs that up that was a brilliant passer. Assists, pass accuracy, number of passes.

A quote from a journalist from 2010:

‘Xavi’s passing is up there with Michel Platini, he creates countless goals with genius through balls while virtual never relinquishing possession’

What’s next up for debate: Was Van Nistelrooy a good finisher? Was Beckham good at crossing?

 

[Sanjuro]

First of all, it is quite obvious that some people don't understand football. They observe player's so called "dominance" through possession of the ball, or number of passes, total assists etc. and in reality these parameters are not something that is the choice/decision or the result of the game of ONE particular player (Xavi or Modric) but the composition of the team and the coach's tactics (e.g. tiki-taka football vs counter-attack style, etc.).
Xavi has played in teams (Barcelona, Spain) that were built to play possession based football and in fact we have never seen him in a counter-attacking team with little possession, and Modric has shown countless times in his career that he is brilliant in every style. Modric is super press-resistant whilst navigating tight spaces, has super awareness, a vision and interpretation of space, he is brilliant with ball retention and ball progression and passing, he can make defence-splitting pass out of nothing. His ability to read the pace of the game is second to none. With defensive contribution in breaking up the opponent's game, he is simply the perfect midfielder that you can fit into any tactical scheme, and at the end of the day, he clearly showed that throughout his career playing in different teams and tactical schemes.

Two much more similar players, Xavi and Kroos (especially in the German national team), due to the position on the field and the tactics of their teams, often had the ball more at their feet than Modric, but Modric will often make a greater influence on the success of his team. This is exactly what Modric showed during Real's campaigns for 5 European titles and in the Croatian national team where Modric was not surrounded by world class players like Xavi in Spain or Kroos in Germany.

What some superficial viewers saw as matches in which Real and Modric seemed to be dominated, in reality was often a tactical plan of Real's coach. For example in the 2014 semi-final of the champions league, second leg, Real played against Guardiola's Bayern and Real gave the ball to Bayern and at the end of the day someone who doesn't understand the football would say that Real were dominated because Bayern had possession and a billion passes, more shots; Kroos alone while playing for Bayern actually had 4 times more passes than Modric in that game, but in reality Modric was excellent without the ball in breaking up the opponent's game and brilliant in the quick transition from defense into attack. Real won that match in Munich 4:0, and Modric was universally praised for his presentation. Over the years, there have been a number of similar examples where Real consciously gave the ball to the opponent, absorbed their attack, and then with a quick transition, releasing their flying machines (Ronaldo, Bale, Vinicious...), Real Madrid score(d) goals. I emphasize once again, Real's midfield, led by Modric and Kroos plays a crucial role in all of this regardless of possession percentage.
Last year (except the 1st game against PSG, in which Real was simply terrible), Modric was great in the 2nd game against PSG, both games against Chelsea... and in the final it was Modric's brilliant move that started the action for the goal. Modric wisely draws 3 Liverpool players on him by pulling towards own goal and then with a reverse pass to Carvajal he breaks the pressure line (3 Liverpool players out), then two short passes Carvajal --> Casemiro --> Valverde and 2 more Liverpool players were out, and then Valverde rushes towards the goal... Simply beautiful! Someone enjoys the so-called "domination", and I enjoy this kind of technical mastery and the simplicity of the game. And just like Modric said:
"It's impossible to beat so many teams, so many champions, to reach so many semi-finals, just by luck. It takes quality and faith, these are the factors that make us great. ... Let them think what they want. This is an unfair opinion and they only make us laugh, but everyone can say what they want."

I've been following football since the early 80's, Word Cup '82, I clearly remember Platini's France '84, Maradona's World Cup '86 (I consider Maradona the best player ever), the great Sacchi's Milan in Italy and Europe etc. etc., when I sum it all up, Modric and Iniesta are the 2 best midfielders I've seen. In addition to their football virtuosity, these 2 players are universally respected by opposing players and fans around the world (including Barcelona and Real Madrid fans) and that also says a lot about them. Their showcases are full of won trophies and individual awards, and their game is a universal language understood by everyone who loves football.

 

[FreckBarca]

First of all, it is quite obvious that some people don't understand football. They observe player's so called "dominance" through possession of the ball, or number of passes, total assists etc. and in reality these parameters are not something that is the choice/decision or the result of the game of ONE particular player (Xavi or Modric) but the composition of the team and the coach's tactics (e.g. tiki-taka football vs counter-attack style, etc.).
Xavi has played in teams (Barcelona, Spain) that were built to play possession based football and in fact we have never seen him in a counter-attacking team with little possession, and Modric has shown countless times in his career that he is brilliant in every style. Modric is super press-resistant whilst navigating tight spaces, has super awareness, a vision and interpretation of space, he is brilliant with ball retention and ball progression and passing, he can make defence-splitting pass out of nothing. His ability to read the pace of the game is second to none. With defensive contribution in breaking up the opponent's game, he is simply the perfect midfielder that you can fit into any tactical scheme, and at the end of the day, he clearly showed that throughout his career playing in different teams and tactical schemes.

Two much more similar players, Xavi and Kroos (especially in the German national team), due to the position on the field and the tactics of their teams, often had the ball more at their feet than Modric, but Modric will often make a greater influence on the success of his team. This is exactly what Modric showed during Real's campaigns for 5 European titles and in the Croatian national team where Modric was not surrounded by world class players like Xavi in Spain or Kroos in Germany.

What some superficial viewers saw as matches in which Real and Modric seemed to be dominated, in reality was often a tactical plan of Real's coach. For example in the 2014 semi-final of the champions league, second leg, Real played against Guardiola's Bayern and Real gave the ball to Bayern and at the end of the day someone who doesn't understand the football would say that Real were dominated because Bayern had possession and a billion passes, more shots; Kroos alone while playing for Bayern actually had 4 times more passes than Modric in that game, but in reality Modric was excellent without the ball in breaking up the opponent's game and brilliant in the quick transition from defense into attack. Real won that match in Munich 4:0, and Modric was universally praised for his presentation. Over the years, there have been a number of similar examples where Real consciously gave the ball to the opponent, absorbed their attack, and then with a quick transition, releasing their flying machines (Ronaldo, Bale, Vinicious...), Real Madrid score(d) goals. I emphasize once again, Real's midfield, led by Modric and Kroos plays a crucial role in all of this regardless of possession percentage.
Last year (except the 1st game against PSG, in which Real was simply terrible), Modric was great in the 2nd game against PSG, both games against Chelsea... and in the final it was Modric's brilliant move that started the action for the goal. Modric wisely draws 3 Liverpool players on him by pulling towards own goal and then with a reverse pass to Carvajal he breaks the pressure line (3 Liverpool players out), then two short passes Carvajal --> Casemiro --> Valverde and 2 more Liverpool players were out, and then Valverde rushes towards the goal... Simply beautiful! Someone enjoys the so-called "domination", and I enjoy this kind of technical mastery and the simplicity of the game. And just like Modric said:
"It's impossible to beat so many teams, so many champions, to reach so many semi-finals, just by luck. It takes quality and faith, these are the factors that make us great. ... Let them think what they want. This is an unfair opinion and they only make us laugh, but everyone can say what they want."

I've been following football since the early 80's, Word Cup '82, I clearly remember Platini's France '84, Maradona's World Cup '86 (I consider Maradona the best player ever), the great Sacchi's Milan in Italy and Europe etc. etc., when I sum it all up, Modric and Iniesta are the 2 best midfielders I've seen. In addition to their football virtuosity, these 2 players are universally respected by opposing players and fans around the world (including Barcelona and Real Madrid fans) and that also says a lot about them. Their showcases are full of won trophies and individual awards, and their game is a universal language understood by everyone who loves football.

One thing I have noticed about Madrid over the years is that they never had a truly fixed system.
They had an adaptive quality to the other teams strenghts and weaknesses and could play both possession and counterattacking football with equal success.

Of course, as a club this means shit. All that matters is that you win trophies, doesn't matter if trough this method or pure Barca possession, etc.
But I think it speaks volumes for the midfield players specially. Modric-Kroos-Casemiro.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Any top five CM list without Zidane and Robson is wrong. Robbo was the best player I've ever seen at Old Trafford. He gave hope to United fans in the 80s when the vermin were winning everything and we had none.

Any top five CM with any of Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Messi in it is wrong. They weren't CMs.

Zidane never played CM at his peak though, did he? You wouldn't put him box to box in a midfield two. He had 2-3 defensive mids with him at nearly all times. In 1998 it was Deschamps and Petit, in 2000 it was Deschamps and Vieira, in 2006 it was Makelele and Vieira. Deschamps and Davids for Juve, Makelele for Real Madrid.

He was a pure number 10, in that way he's more comparable to Maradona than Modric, Xavi and others.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

It’s not one season, he has twice as many assists as Modric in La Liga. And 200+ career assists. Got nothing to do with Milner. I wonder if you ever watched Xavi play if you don’t think he was capable of penetrative passing.

Once again, you're bringing up assists. My point (with the Milner example) is that assists are not the best way to judge a player's passing abilities. I also never said that he was incapable of penetrative passing, I said that it rarely was penetrative. Which is true.

Eye test, stats, results. Everything backs that up that was a brilliant passer. Assists, pass accuracy, number of passes.

I never said that he was a bad passer. I said that he wasn't as good a passer as Modric. You mentioned pass accuracy and number of passes as if any excellent midfielder couldn't have done the same in a tiki-taka system.

A quote from a journalist from 2010:

‘Xavi’s passing is up there with Michel Platini, he creates countless goals with genius through balls while virtual never relinquishing possession’

I'm sure that there are journalists waxing lyrical about Modric's passing too.

What’s next up for debate: Was Van Nistelrooy a good finisher? Was Beckham good at crossing?

Was Van Nistelrooy a better finisher than Cristiano? I think so. But Ronaldo scored far more goals so he must have been the better finisher. That's what using assist stats to say Xavi was a better passer than Modric is like

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Any argument of Modric being a better passer than Xavi is simply going to fall flat.

They're not even close in passing. There's not a single facet of passing that Modric is superior in.

Kroos is a better passer than Modric and no one argues he's a better passer than Xavi(which can be argued).

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

Kroos might be the best pure passer in the history of football as unlike Xavi who always kept it short Kroos not only has an equally good percentage but also the best long ball in the history of the game arguably on top,

Kroos took it to another level for passing but lacks some dribbling and close control Xavi had at times so it’s a draw.

I think Kroos was a better long range passer technically than the likes of Modric or Xavi, but he lacked vision compared to Luka and even Xavi to an extent.

 

[MUFC OK]

I mean top 10-15 is arguable for both. I wouldn't put Ronaldinho in my top 10 personally and not Zidane either.

I did outline why I consider both overrated. For what it's worth, I am not saying they're not incredible.

If it's talent alone, I'd put them higher, but I can't rate just on talent alone. It's what you do with the talent. I don't consider CR7 one of the 5 most talented players ever for what it's worth and most would found that a laughable stance.

My 5 best are: Messi, Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano and CR7. And I constantly flip between Messi, Pele and Maradona for 1st.

If it's talent only though, CR7 wouldn't be in my top 5 and I'd put Ronaldo Nazario in there instead.

The rewriting of Ronaldos legacy by some since Messi won the WC has been a bit of a joke. His talent is as good as anyone bar Messi.

Seems to me that by ‘talent’ what people mean is ability to dribble past 3 or 4 players.

 

[Andrade]

yeah I'm bowing out from this thread.

We can agree to disagree btw @Andrade. We'll keep going in circles and derailing the thread.

Agreed

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Once again, you're bringing up assists. My point (with the Milner example) is that assists are not the best way to judge a player's passing abilities. I also never said that he was incapable of penetrative passing, I said that it rarely was penetrative. Which is true.

I never said that he was a bad passer. I said that he wasn't as good a passer as Modric. You mentioned pass accuracy and number of passes as if any excellent midfielder couldn't have done the same in a tiki-taka system.

I'm sure that there are journalists waxing lyrical about Modric's passing too.

Was Van Nistelrooy a better finisher than Cristiano? I think so. But Ronaldo scored far more goals so he must have been the better finisher. That's what using assist stats to say Xavi was a better passer than Modric is like

But that's it, I can't agree to that.

Modric isn't even the best passer on his own team - Kroos is. Modric is a fine passer, but if you were going to compare him to Xavi, I wouldn't use passing as the barometer, Xavi has him beat every day of the week. Modric is a better long-rang shooter I'd say, was maybe slightly quicker, maybe slightly better first touch and is Xavi's equal in game intelligence. But passing, no not going to accept that one.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The rewriting of Ronaldos legacy by some since Messi won the WC has been a bit of a joke. His talent is as good as anyone bar Messi.

Highly disagree and I think plenty on this forum would agree with me.

He's not more talented than Ronaldo Nazario was for one.

And you think Messi is more talented than Ronaldo, ergo Maradona is too.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

First of all, it is quite obvious that some people don't understand football. They observe player's so called "dominance" through possession of the ball, or number of passes, total assists etc. and in reality these parameters are not something that is the choice/decision or the result of the game of ONE particular player (Xavi or Modric) but the composition of the team and the coach's tactics (e.g. tiki-taka football vs counter-attack style, etc.).
Xavi has played in teams (Barcelona, Spain) that were built to play possession based football and in fact we have never seen him in a counter-attacking team with little possession, and Modric has shown countless times in his career that he is brilliant in every style. Modric is super press-resistant whilst navigating tight spaces, has super awareness, a vision and interpretation of space, he is brilliant with ball retention and ball progression and passing, he can make defence-splitting pass out of nothing. His ability to read the pace of the game is second to none. With defensive contribution in breaking up the opponent's game, he is simply the perfect midfielder that you can fit into any tactical scheme, and at the end of the day, he clearly showed that throughout his career playing in different teams and tactical schemes.

Two much more similar players, Xavi and Kroos (especially in the German national team), due to the position on the field and the tactics of their teams, often had the ball more at their feet than Modric, but Modric will often make a greater influence on the success of his team. This is exactly what Modric showed during Real's campaigns for 5 European titles and in the Croatian national team where Modric was not surrounded by world class players like Xavi in Spain or Kroos in Germany.

What some superficial viewers saw as matches in which Real and Modric seemed to be dominated, in reality was often a tactical plan of Real's coach. For example in the 2014 semi-final of the champions league, second leg, Real played against Guardiola's Bayern and Real gave the ball to Bayern and at the end of the day someone who doesn't understand the football would say that Real were dominated because Bayern had possession and a billion passes, more shots; Kroos alone while playing for Bayern actually had 4 times more passes than Modric in that game, but in reality Modric was excellent without the ball in breaking up the opponent's game and brilliant in the quick transition from defense into attack. Real won that match in Munich 4:0, and Modric was universally praised for his presentation. Over the years, there have been a number of similar examples where Real consciously gave the ball to the opponent, absorbed their attack, and then with a quick transition, releasing their flying machines (Ronaldo, Bale, Vinicious...), Real Madrid score(d) goals. I emphasize once again, Real's midfield, led by Modric and Kroos plays a crucial role in all of this regardless of possession percentage.
Last year (except the 1st game against PSG, in which Real was simply terrible), Modric was great in the 2nd game against PSG, both games against Chelsea... and in the final it was Modric's brilliant move that started the action for the goal. Modric wisely draws 3 Liverpool players on him by pulling towards own goal and then with a reverse pass to Carvajal he breaks the pressure line (3 Liverpool players out), then two short passes Carvajal --> Casemiro --> Valverde and 2 more Liverpool players were out, and then Valverde rushes towards the goal... Simply beautiful! Someone enjoys the so-called "domination", and I enjoy this kind of technical mastery and the simplicity of the game. And just like Modric said:
"It's impossible to beat so many teams, so many champions, to reach so many semi-finals, just by luck. It takes quality and faith, these are the factors that make us great. ... Let them think what they want. This is an unfair opinion and they only make us laugh, but everyone can say what they want."

I've been following football since the early 80's, Word Cup '82, I clearly remember Platini's France '84, Maradona's World Cup '86 (I consider Maradona the best player ever), the great Sacchi's Milan in Italy and Europe etc. etc., when I sum it all up, Modric and Iniesta are the 2 best midfielders I've seen. In addition to their football virtuosity, these 2 players are universally respected by opposing players and fans around the world (including Barcelona and Real Madrid fans) and that also says a lot about them. Their showcases are full of won trophies and individual awards, and their game is a universal language understood by everyone who loves football.

Agree with all of this - good post. Especially with the Modric and Iniesta shouts. I find it bizarre that people consider Xavi to be a contender to be the greatest midfielder of all time when he wasn't even the greatest midfielder in his own team.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

But that's it, I can't agree to that.

Modric isn't even the best passer on his own team - Kroos is. Modric is a fine passer, but if you were going to compare him to Xavi, I wouldn't use passing as the barometer, Xavi has him beat every day of the week. Modric is a better long-rang shooter I'd say, was maybe slightly quicker, maybe slightly better first touch and is Xavi's equal in game intelligence. But passing, no not going to accept that one.

Only thing Modric has on him is he's a better ball carrier. I don't think long-range shooting matters too much, but Modric is likely better in that. I think Xavi has one of the best first touches ever personally.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Agree with all of this - good post. Especially with the Modric and Iniesta shouts. I find it bizarre that people consider Xavi to be a contender to be the greatest midfielder of all time when he wasn't even the greatest midfielder in his own team.

He was better than Iniesta rather easily. The spearhead of the most dominant NT ever and club side ever. It's no surprise that Spain declined significantly without him and Barcelona had to adapt their play without him.

It's pretty similar to the Modric debate. The only thing Iniesta has on him is being a better ball carrier.

 

[FreckBarca]

Only thing Modric has on him is he's a better ball carrier. I don't think long-range shooting matters too much, but Modric is likely better in that. I think Xavi has one of the best first touches ever personally.

Also a better defender which is half of the game.
Also a longer peak.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Also a better defender which is half of the game.
Also a longer peak.

Modric has been rather inconsistent the past few seasons. This thread just gets bumped whenever he plays well in the CL. He's been past his peak/prime for a while now despite still being excellent when he turns it up.

He has more longevity, but Xavi's career pre-Pep is underrated.

Better defender? Eh. Both of them cover a lot of ground. I don't think there's much between them in reading of the game from a defensive standpoint and tackling.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

He was better than Iniesta rather easily. The spearhead of the most dominant NT ever and club side ever. It's no surprise that Spain declined significantly without him and Barcelona had to adapt their play without him.

It's pretty similar to the Modric debate. The only thing Iniesta has on him is being a better ball carrier.

I think the reason that we are disagreeing so fundamentally on Xavi in this thread is that you saw him as a phenomenal player whereas I saw him as a very good player playing in an incredible system.

Teams struggled to adapt to tiki-taka and Barca and Spain made hay as a result. But when managers started to adapt to it and introduced effective counter-pressing, tiki-taka was exposed. Not just by Bayern, but by the Netherlands in 2014 too. The critical thing to remember is that Barcelona and Spain declined when Xavi was still an ever present; not when he departed.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think the reason that we are disagreeing so fundamentally on Xavi in this thread is that you saw him as a phenomenal player whereas I saw him as a very good player playing in an incredible system.

Teams struggled to adapt to tiki-taka and Barca and Spain made hay as a result. But when managers started to adapt to it and introduced effective counter-pressing, tiki-taka was exposed. Not just by Bayern, but by the Netherlands in 2014 too. The critical thing to remember is that Barcelona and Spain declined when Xavi was still an ever present; not when he departed.

I mean the fact you've reduced him to a system player is a bit ridiculous to be honest. And the system wasn't tiki taka. It was positional play which managers still employ today with wrinkles.

Spain didn't monopolize possession that much during the 2008 Euros and he was the player of the tournament. They didn't monopolize the ball much vs Italy in the 2012 final either and Xavi was arguably the best player on the field and was tasked with shadowing Pirlo(who was completely ineffective).

And Xavi's decline coincided with Barcelona and Spain's decline. He declined a bit in 2011-2012 from his incredible season prior to that and then continued declining season upon season.

 

[Remember the geese]

Xavi is number one for me.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I think Kroos has become underrated compared to Modric.

I think for the Real Madrid fan, Kroos is missing the magical moments. He's not the player who'll save you in a difficult moment, be it by a goal-line clearance, last ditch tackle, or goal/assist out of nowhere. He's a very elegant player, but Real Madrid's recent heroics aren't built on elegance, they're build on rolling around in pig shit.

 

[FreckBarca]

I mean the fact you've reduced him to a system player is a bit ridiculous to be honest. And the system wasn't tiki taka. It was positional play which managers still employ today with wrinkles.

Spain didn't monopolize possession that much during the 2008 Euros and he was the player of the tournament. They didn't monopolize the ball much vs Italy in the 2012 final either and Xavi was arguably the best player on the field and was tasked with shadowing Pirlo(who was completely ineffective).

And Xavi's decline coincided with Barcelona and Spain's decline. He declined a bit in 2011-2012 from his incredible season prior to that and then continued declining season upon season.

Common misconception. Xavi was great in its own merit but the best Spanish player of the 2008 euros was Marcos Senna. Every Spaniard knows this, even Mundo Deportivo, a Barca newspaper, wrote the following:

'Marcos Senna was the clear protagonist of the title obtained in Vienna and of the entire tournament. In fact, for many he should have been chosen as the best player in the competition'

 

[Gio]

I think the reason that we are disagreeing so fundamentally on Xavi in this thread is that you saw him as a phenomenal player whereas I saw him as a very good player playing in an incredible system.

Teams struggled to adapt to tiki-taka and Barca and Spain made hay as a result. But when managers started to adapt to it and introduced effective counter-pressing, tiki-taka was exposed. Not just by Bayern, but by the Netherlands in 2014 too. The critical thing to remember is that Barcelona and Spain declined when Xavi was still an ever present; not when he departed.

Chicken and egg debate this and it'll be impossible to boil down to an answer. But I always thought it quite telling that - even during during those peak years - on the very rare occasions Spain weren't at the races, there was usually no Xavi on the park. For example:

• In 2010 when Spain were at their most dominant best, unbeaten in 55 of their last 57 games, they crashed 4-1 to Argentina. Who didn't start? Xavi.
• Fast forward a few months and a second-half collapse sees them fall 4-0 to Portugal. Who came off at half-time? Xavi.
• The previous time that Spain had let in 4 was a few weeks before Xavi made his international debut, a decade earlier back in September 2000.

His control of the centre protected his defence so much. Spain become notorious for losing their shit when he wasn't available, despite having a plethora of elite central midfielders to call upon.

I guess that still doesn't answer the question - did Xavi's influence wane because other teams wisened up, or was it down to his physical decline? I'd argue that it was a combination of both. He was 34 by the time of the 2014 World Cup and clearly not the player he was only a couple of years earlier at Euro 2012. He was used so intensely from 2008 to 2012 that, imo, it hastened his physical decline a year or two later.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I think the reason that we are disagreeing so fundamentally on Xavi in this thread is that you saw him as a phenomenal player whereas I saw him as a very good player playing in an incredible system.

Teams struggled to adapt to tiki-taka and Barca and Spain made hay as a result. But when managers started to adapt to it and introduced effective counter-pressing, tiki-taka was exposed. Not just by Bayern, but by the Netherlands in 2014 too. The critical thing to remember is that Barcelona and Spain declined when Xavi was still an ever present; not when he departed.

I would say Xavi was past his peak by then, a year after the World Cup he was playing in Qatar. Modric has certainly longevity over Xavi.

If you look at 2014 game against Netherlands, the Spain team was Alonso, Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, Silva playing behind a completely lost Diego Costa. That’s also on Del Bosque for playing three 30 year old plus midfielders and another midfielder with no pace in a 4-5-1. Ultimate too many cooks spoil the broth situation. Rewatched that game during lockdown and there was nobody making a run in behind the entire game.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Modric vs Ajax is a horrible example as he was one of the very few players at Madrid performing in that game.

He’s been dominated in quite a few clasicos against far inferior midfields to the one prime Barca had

 

[GatoLoco]

He’s been dominated in quite a few clasicos against far inferior midfields to the one prime Barca had

Being dominated means being a huge underperformer to me, so I don't share your criteria on this. This is a team sport and form throughout a season plays a big role (like last season's game at the Bernabeu when Modric played as a striker). Plus, Clasicos are not the beginning and end of everything, they are just one more game even more so in a competition which is now tainted by the Negreira scandal.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Being dominated means being a huge underperformer to me, so I don't share your criteria on this. This is a team sport and form throughout a season plays a big role (like last season's game at the Bernabeu when Modric played as a striker). Plus, Clasicos are not the beginning and end of everything, they are just one more game even more so in a competition which is now tainted by the Negreira scandal.

if you want to talk tainted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/

Barca/comments/11pdqdh/refreeing_controversies_during_1617_la_liga/


https://www.cuatro.com/deportes/fut...es-champions-madrid-atletico_18_08987785.html


Getting dominated in all those clasicos had nothing to do with the refs and modric did under perform in a fair bit of them

also had a shocker in the WC semi final:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/croatia...ld-cup-game-was-one-of-his-worst?platform=amp

 

[Red the Bear]

Honestly Keane is my favourite player of all time. But there were games he was untouchable against United.

I don't think so to be honest Keane more than showed up against juve and our favorable record against them reflects that (aside from a relatively rough start against them before getting familiar with the manner of things).

 

[Truthsayer]

I mean the fact you've reduced him to a system player is a bit ridiculous to be honest. And the system wasn't tiki taka. It was positional play which managers still employ today with wrinkles.

Spain didn't monopolize possession that much during the 2008 Euros and he was the player of the tournament. They didn't monopolize the ball much vs Italy in the 2012 final either and Xavi was arguably the best player on the field and was tasked with shadowing Pirlo(who was completely ineffective).

And Xavi's decline coincided with Barcelona and Spain's decline. He declined a bit in 2011-2012 from his incredible season prior to that and then continued declining season upon season.

This is quite inaccurate. Xavi was integrated as a starter for the Barcelona first-team pretty much immediately at the start of his career. Despite that, he was a bench player at the 2002 WC at age 22, and did not play a single minute at the Euro 2004 at age 24. That is a resounding red flag for a guy who is playing on the biggest platform in the world - if he was yet to be fully discovered because he was playing in the Croatian league that would be one thing, but there is nobody who has a shout for the best player or best midfielder with this sort of trajectory.
Even by WC 2006 at the mature age of 26, he is not an undisputed starter. He was subbed out early vs. France due to his inefficacy offensively in the round of 16.
As has been mentioned, the best season for Barca 05/06 - CL + La Liga win occurred when Xavi was largely out of the picture and had been replaced with more effective players at the time.

Even Euro 2008, which is his breakout tournament that salvaged his career, at age 28, he is still not treated as a de facto player. He is subbed out early (60th) in the second group game vs. Sweden (must-win), rested for the third group game, and then again subbed out in the quarters at the 60th vs. Italy when the game is tied due to lack of offensive product. For me, that is extremely concerning. Not one of the names you have mentioned in this thread was not recognized as the undisputed playmaker of their team by age 28. Can you imagine Pirlo, Zidane, or Modric being subbed out repeatedly at the 60th in an international tournament in must-win games?

He then went on to shine as part of a dominant system from 2008 to max 2012 (2012 is slightly generous and by then Iniesta was very clearly the better of the two players), but his influence immediately waned when the footballing world caught up tactics wise. The 7-0 drubbing to Bayern and him being subbed out in the return leg should be horrifying to anybody's legacy. As soon as he was sat out of the midfield, and Barca adopted a more incisive style, they went on to win the CL without him. That is 2 successful CL campaigns without Xavi.

At the WC 2014, he played the first game then was promptly sat out for the rest of the campaign because football had moved past tippy-tappying laterally. Compare to Modric who just pulled off great successive WC campaigns (and UCL campaigns), Zidane at WC 06, Pirlo at Euro 2012, etc.

We have a case of a player who did shine but for far too short of a time, was never the best player on his team, and whose career could not get a start and quickly waned without the right system.

 

[Devil81]

I don't think so to be honest Keane more than showed up against juve and our favorable record against them reflects that (aside from a relatively rough start against them before getting familiar with the manner of things).

The period I'm talking about.

Maybe the run around was a bit of bold statement but as good as Keane was keeping with Zidane was difficult for any player in world football. He just glided with the ball and was able to manoeuvre himself out of difficult situations with skill and close control.

Arguably my favourite ever none United player.

 

[UnitedRoadRed]

Highly disagree and I think plenty on this forum would agree with me.

He's not more talented than Ronaldo Nazario was for one.

And you think Messi is more talented than Ronaldo, ergo Maradona is too.

George was more talented than most, if not all of the players mentioned except Maradona but succumbed to his demons more easily.

C Ronaldo at his peak was/is simply a match-winning, trophy-delivering machine, arguably the ultimate professional. Real Madrid got that part of his career unfortunately for us.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

George was more talented than most, if not all of the players mentioned except Maradona but succumbed to his demons more easily.

C Ronaldo at his peak was/is simply a match-winning, trophy-delivering machine, arguably the ultimate professional. Real Madrid got that part of his career unfortunately for us.

I never said he wasn't

 

[Red the Bear]

The period I'm talking about.

Maybe the run around was a bit of bold statement but as good as Keane was keeping with Zidane was difficult for any player in world football. He just glided with the ball and was able to manoeuvre himself out of difficult situations with skill and close control.

Arguably my favourite ever none United player.

Agreed on your second point, Zidane was pure ecstasy in action.

 

[Andrade]

The rewriting of Ronaldos legacy by some since Messi won the WC has been a bit of a joke. His talent is as good as anyone bar Messi.

Seems to me that by ‘talent’ what people mean is ability to dribble past 3 or 4 players.

It really isn't

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

refreeing_controversies_during_1617_la_liga/

You were given one of the most fraudulent penalties in modern football history in the 16/17 season:

Somehow this failed to appear in that compilation.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

You were given one of the most fraudulent penalties in modern football history in the 16/17 season:

Somehow this failed to appear in that compilation.

and yet I have given you countless examples of the refs giving some of the worst calls against Barca of the entire season. One example after another. Just give up with your bias. For a team “paying off the refs” no way do all those blatantly terribly calls happen. I could find one for all the ridiculous calls in favor if Madrid that season but you’d say they were all legit

Hell madrid having controversy with blatant favouritism from the refs is nothing new:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/zidane-tired-accusations-real-madrid-benefited-referees/?sn-amp

I mean the ball was IN THE NET for god’s sake but yes, we paid off the refs

https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...owed-goal-la-liga-video-technology-real-betis

Take off the homer glasses. Madrid were the best team in 2017, but absolutely no way in hell do that Many horrible calls happen for supposedly laying the refs to be biased for Barcelona.