So where is Modric rated in best CM’s of all time ?

Scholes is probably my favourite ever Utd player but even I have to admit he's below Xavi and Modric. I think Modric is severely underrated and Xavi is probably the only midfielder in my lifetime who's better than him.

Also people saying Zidane must only be counting his big game performances because he was nowhere near as consistent as Modric or Xavi. Pirlo doesn't belong in this conversation either.
 
King7Eric said:
Scholes is probably my favourite ever Utd player but even I have to admit he's below Xavi and Modric. I think Modric is severely underrated and Xavi is probably the only midfielder in my lifetime who's better than him.

Also people saying Zidane must only be counting his big game performances because he was nowhere near as consistent as Modric or Xavi. Pirlo doesn't belong in this conversation either.
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Beware, you might get a - how long have you been watching football - question.
 
Strelok said:
It's true once Xavi started his decline Barca could no longer go far in the CL.
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Barcelona won 4 CLs in a period of 10 years.

Xavi missed most of the first campaign to injury, and only had 2 starts for the last one.

The evidence is quite clear that Barcelona can win CL titles without Xavi.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Barcelona won 4 CLs in a period of 10 years. Xavi was not a starter for 2 of them. One before Guardiola, one after.
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Tbh I don't follow Barca so I might be wrong but that's my thought back then watching them. And you gotta take his contribution over the whole campaign not only in the finals. For example both Scholes and Keane were suspended in our 99 night but you simply couldn't deny their huge contribution in that title.

If my memory serves me right Xavi started his decline around 2012-2013 I think but he still had some fight left for the last hurra in their last CL title or something like that.

Anyway you're a Madrid fan so you must be better than me on this so I'd take your words I think. It's been like ages since and tbh I don't have a really good memory. I can't even remember the date of my wedding.
 
Strelok said:
You also should stop defending your opinion if you don't have a single worthy argument. And no your posts don't really annoy me. I found those kinda funny tbh.
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No point presenting an argument to you tbh.
 
I've never seen anyone control a football game quite like Xavi... Opposition were absolutely starved of the ball, was even boring at times.
He's easily the best for me, there's not even a comparative player for me, Modric sublime don't get me wrong..
 
AndySmith1990 said:
I don't believe you've been a United fan for longer than 10 years. No one over 30 would underrated Scholes so much. He was every bit as good as Modric. Fact
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In terms of pure talent - Scholes can compete yes but football is more than just talent - it’s about mentality, Luka miles ahead in that respect.
 
Strelok said:
You gotta present an argument first before jumping to that conclusion mate. Which I haven't seen you doing any.
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I already made an argument in this thread. It's not my fault if you didn't read it.

You can have the last word though.
 
adexkola said:
Despise is the word.

May I also proffer the radical idea that it wasn't Xavi and his team that killed games, it was the opponents who sat back and went, "shit, you got 90 minutes to breach this wall"?

The nature of dominance they demonstrated is something most teams would bite your hand off to accomplish. I've probably seen only Mourinho's 1st Chelsea team be that dominant in my time of watching football, from the defensive end.

It's that singular dominance that has me place him a shade above Modric (cannot be said enough that he's in the pantheon of greats as well and Scholesy was a Caf prophet scorned in his home forum, we were not worthy)
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It's spot on - very few teams entertained the notion of an open game against them, which also got under the skins of plenty of opposition supporters as Barca's game was then declared the one true way to play and their fans, players and staff really rubbed that message in the faces of those they declared didn't have the stones to face them in an open contest, which obviously rankles and becomes nauseating very quickly indeed when it's backed up by such dominance in possession and execution.

Xavi, perhaps more than any other, is frowned upon for making games 'boring' and not at all fun for the opposition or fans who want to see a back and forth contest. He didn't make games exciting, especially if the opposition went a goal down, so perhaps he bears the brunt of that in how he's rated now. Especially when compared to more dynamic, all-action players like Modric.

I think @Gio made a good point in his post that Modric may well have ushered in the knit between the consummate retainer (Xavi) and consummate all-action (Matthaus) and have a bracket all of his own to claim dominion of. A halfway house between the two; not better than either in their specialist field, but better than both in knitting both together into a single CM. In that way, Modric can be used as the bar, and others can be compared to see if they can do what he did better than he did. In their own lanes, you may then have the single most dominant forces of each type of central midfielder.

CM has a broader scope because what is a consummate central midfielder is open to solid debate in and of itself. If it's: do everything, everywhere all at once, then Matthaus doesn't have a par; if it's kill the opposition and then beat their corpse with its own limb, then Xavi comes to the fore; but if it's gel and knit and work and be eclectic, then Modric easily stakes his own claim in his own lane without denigration of any other player.
 
That_Bloke said:
This is one of the best description of Xavi I've ever read and the reason why a lot of people can't truly grasp the magnitude of his influence in a game.
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It's a type of midfield perfection that can be deemed boring because it breaks game theory - if you can't get the ball, you're effectively dead in the water, no matter how athletic or skilled you are.

It's a strange thing to be taken for granted for given we've not seen it exhibited to such extensive and devastating effect before or since.

Every club on the planet would give anything to have a player that breaks the game in that way and gives their own side the best possible chance of winning by recycling the ball around midfield and supplying it to forwards as many times as is needed to score... and then kill the game.
 
Strelok said:
Tbh I don't follow Barca so I might be wrong but that's my thought back then watching them. And you gotta take his contribution over the whole campaign not only in the finals. For example both Scholes and Keane were suspended in our 99 night but you simply couldn't deny their huge contribution in that title.
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He missed most of of the 06/07 05/06 campaign due to an ACL injury. He was out from December to April, so he didn't play anything but the group stages in the CL. In 14/15 he only had 3 starts, both in the group stages. His biggest contribution was playing around 80 minutes combined in the QFs.

This isn't a knock on him. But I do think that the 'player quality -> team results' argument more clearly favors Modric these days. It is more obvious that putting Modric into the RM midfield is when they started winning CLs; when he was injured most of a season they struggled in the competition (14/15). And he is one of only 3 players remaining from the 2014 CL winning squad.

Of course, if he leaves RM and they keep winning CLs then the argument loses strength.
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
He missed most of of the 06/07 campaign due to an ACL injury. He was out from December to April, so he didn't play anything but the group stages in the CL. In 14/15 he only had 3 starts, both in the group stages. His biggest contribution was playing around 80 minutes combined in the QFs.

This isn't a knock on him. But I do think that the 'player quality -> team results' argument more clearly favors Modric these days.
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The injury was actually in 05/06, when they won the Champions League vs Arsenal.
 
Suedesi said:
That's not what I am saying - I said before Xavi exploded onto the scene at 28 years old and prior to that he was a good CM, but not spectacular. The few CL matches I saw (such as the Juve quarters in 2003, or the Chelsea RD 16 in 05) he really didn't stand out. He didn't play in the 2006 Barca CL win, he didn't stand out in Euro 04 or WC 06 either. Barcelona were on the verge of selling him in 08.

My point was he burst in the scene under Arragones and later Guardiola and Del Bosque in a system that was tailor-made for Xavi -- double pivot, some of the best midfielders of the generation, tactical changes to have superiority in midfield, special colleagues like Iniesta, Busquets, Xavi Alonso, Marcos Senna, David Silva and a certain Messi at Barcelona. Football is not played in a vacuum and the players you play with can you make you look a lot better. Xavi is a system player albeit a very successful one.

Modric for me shows more versaility, bite and drive. He took plucky Croatia to a WC final and a WC semifinal. Put him with better players at Real Madrid and he won 5 CL. That's all.
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The issue here is that there's not going to be a claim that Xavi's godhood can be established in any other way but by giving him the means by which to perform. I pointed out Matthaus and Robson before because they are the Roy Of The Rovers types where nothing binds them whereas it is nothing prescient to state that if you put Xavi in a midfield of poor passers and movers, you're going to nullify a vast array of his assets out the gate.

Xavi cannot become the system if he is not utilised correctly. Does that mark him down? No, because he is literally the first name down on any hypothetical teamsheet for an all-time possession based xi, bar none. He is the best exponent of retentive football. It is pointless to sweep that under the rug in favour of what he couldn't do - ultimately, that doesn't matter. Give him the tools and watch him go. The only way what you're saying can hold up is if we deem possession football a monolithic system, but we don't do that because the nuances are acknowledged in every style of play and we accept how and what makes them work.

By the way, Modric does not escape scrutiny here. He came to absolute prominence in one of the best midfield trios the game has seen, himself. And Croatia have always played a system intended to get the best out of him first and foremost. It's not as if he's bundled from a defensive, miserly bunch of cloggers at one club or on one platform to a 180 elsewhere; even at Spurs, they played open, attacking football with an emphasis on the very things Modric excels at. Xavi's scope is obviously narrower, but Modric has earned title after title and plaudit after plaudit in sides that enable (and 'unlock') him to use every sinew of his being in the most beneficial way possible for his style of play. Casemiro is not inferior to Busquets, and Kroos is just as good at what he does/did as Iniesta at what he did.

There's really not much in the remainder of the midfielders for either player, but for sure, if you wished to play possession-based football, you take Busquets and Iniesta, just the same as if you want a more eclectic and flexible midfield, you take Kroos and Casemiro. And as I stated before, Senna was the last midfielder to usurp or have more authority on a side that featured Xavi, after that point, it's all him, plus cohorts and I don't think it's dissimilar for Modric with the other 2 seen as great at what they do, in a Modric-influenced midfield.
 
Fortitude said:
Modric has earned title after title and plaudit after plaudit in sides that enable (and 'unlock') him to use every sinew of his being in the most beneficial way possible for his style of play. Casemiro is not inferior to Busquets, and Kroos is just as good at what he does/did as Iniesta at what he did.
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Neither Kroos nor Casemiro were part of Real Madrid's midfield in 2013/2014, which is when the run of great CL performances began. The midfield was Modric, Alonso, and Di Maria.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Neither Kroos nor Casemiro were part of Real Madrid's midfield in 2013/2014, which is when the run of great CL performances began. The midfield was Modric, Alonso, and Di Maria.
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But Modric's real prominence began with Kroos in the team. As in, Modric was then the entity we've known ever since, with all the pressures and expectations of being the best of the best.
 
I think by now he has every right to be mentioned in the same breath as Xavi and Iniesta. Maybe even edges them thanks to longevity. Incredible player and no coincidence that he's the only other footballer to win one in the Messi/CR7 era.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
He missed most of of the 06/07 05/06 campaign due to an ACL injury. He was out from December to April, so he didn't play anything but the group stages in the CL. In 14/15 he only had 3 starts, both in the group stages. His biggest contribution was playing around 80 minutes combined in the QFs
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Imo it's a bit unfair to use the 05/06 and 14/15 to beat him with. Prime Barca only started by 2007-2008 I think. And 14/15 was pretty his last hurra at the top level.

Point is after their last title in 14/15 Barca wasn't able to go far in the CL or look as dominant as in their prime anymore despite having the MSN, arguably the best attacking trio in the world around that period. And imo the decline of Xavi played a huge role if not the deciding factor in that. They still basically had the core of their dream team back then I think. Minus Xavi of course.
 
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He was once closer to joining Barcelona before he actually joined Real Madrid. Imagine a midfield with Xavi, Iniesta and Modric. Also Messi, and Suarez up front. Just that one addition would've guaranteed them more and more trophies.
 
OleTheGreat said:
He was once closer to joining Barcelona before he actually joined Real Madrid. Imagine a midfield with Xavi, Iniesta and Modric. Also Messi, and Suarez up front. Just that one addition would've guaranteed them more and more trophies.
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Not a dig at anyone but United were linked with him for years before his move to Madrid if my memory serves me right. We decided to buy Kagawa instead I think.

In fact I've said somewhere here the only player I'm really gutted we didn't sign while having the chance is Modric. Would have been our midfield for a decade.
 
Strelok said:
Not a dig at anyone but United were linked with him for years before his move to Madrid if my memory serves me right. We decided to buy Kagawa instead I think.

In fact I've said somewhere here the only player I'm really gutted we didn't sign while having the chance is Modric. Would have been our midfield for a decade.
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True that. He will make any midfield world class. The man is just brilliant! Out of this world!
 
Strelok said:
Not a dig at anyone but United were linked with him for years before his move to Madrid if my memory serves me right. We decided to buy Kagawa instead I think.

In fact I've said somewhere here the only player I'm really gutted we didn't sign while having the chance is Modric. Would have been our midfield for a decade.
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Bit wrong. In 2011 he was pushing to go to Chelsea, United in summer 2012 was in for Hazard and Lucas Moura but we got Kagawa instead as Hazard had picked Chelsea over us. Spurs didn't want to let Modrić go after he had his head swayed. He then went to Madrid in 2012 and had a pretty shit first season and most Madrid fans wanted him gone, though he scored the screamer vs United which seemed to ignite his career.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
I don't believe you've been a United fan for longer than 10 years. No one over 30 would underrated Scholes so much. He was every bit as good as Modric. Fact
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That's just not true... There's no point having this conversation on the caf, Scholes is one of my all time favourite players but ffs come on, he isn't on par with Modrić, Xavi or Iniesta. He is comparable to Pirlo for me, probably below if we are being honest due to doing nothing internationally, but both are a tier below. At a certain level of class, it is simply more obvious and you get the players who win award after award and are voted constantly into the world TOTY's and all that... Yes Scholes is woefully underrated in that regard ... But he didn't get in once. Only the PL toty twice. Modrić led a country like Croatia to 2nd and 3rd in the world Cup during his time. Won all the CLs with him being the key midfielder. You just can't really make an argument for Scholes. Which is fine. We love him, he's one of our greatest midfielders, but that doesn't mean that globally he is one of the top 5 or 10 midfielders in all of football history. We don't need to be that biased and insecure.
 
Strelok said:
Imo it's a bit unfair to use the 05/06 and 14/15 to beat him with. Prime Barca only started by 2007-2008 I think. And 14/15 was pretty his last hurra at the top level.
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I'm not beating him with anything. I am simply making the point that it is not so easy to claim "successes started with Xavi and ended with him." It does not reflect poorly on him as a player, it is simply what happened.

The Barcelona of 2004-2006 was generally considered the best team in the world, Ronaldinho won a Balon d'Or, they won multiple league titles, etc. Xavi was an important part of that team, but their most successful season was the one in which he was injured.

Strelok said:
Point is after their last title in 14/15 Barca wasn't able to go far in the CL or look as dominant as in their prime anymore despite having the MSN, arguably the best attacking trio in the world around that period. And imo the decline of Xavi played a huge role if not the deciding factor in that. They still basically had the core of their dream team back then I think. Minus Xavi of course.
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For me the issue with this argument is that Xavi leaving the club in 2015 is doing the heavy lifting. Barcelona started having poor CL results in 11/12, when they lost to Chelsea. The next season they were obliterated 7-0 by Bayern. The season after that they went out to Atletico in the QFs. Then after Xavi was taken out of the starting lineup, they won the whole thing. But that ended up being a mirage; they continued with QF exits for a few more years.
MSN were only together for 3 seasons and won 1 CL which is fine, they were unlucky not to win the 15/16 CL (they mysteriously turned crap for a few weeks and lost almost every game they played).
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I am simply making the point that it is not so easy to claim "successes started with Xavi and ended with him."
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Imo it's actually not the claim here. I was trying to point out his importance in that prime Barca. Which @Fortitude has explained and put the whole thing almost perfectly I think. Without Xavi that prime Barca lost their previous complete control of the game and thus became more beatable. That's what the whole claim was about mate.
 
Strelok said:
Imo it's a bit unfair to use the 05/06 and 14/15 to beat him with. Prime Barca only started by 2007-2008 I think. And 14/15 was pretty his last hurra at the top level.

Point is after their last title in 14/15 Barca wasn't able to go far in the CL or look as dominant as in their prime anymore despite having the MSN, arguably the best attacking trio in the world around that period. And imo the decline of Xavi played a huge role if not the deciding factor in that. They still basically had the core of their dream team back then I think. Minus Xavi of course.
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Yeah I think the point is for Barcelona to win in 2014/15, they had to reinvent their style of football. In 2011/12 their average share of possession in the Champions League was 69%, but from 2012 onwards they had to go on a journey to discover that a fading Xavi could not be replaced within the system. And so by 2014/15 their possession share had dropped to 59% as they had to change the midfield dynamic, away from pure ball domination, to a more physical transition-based unit that could score on the counter. To illustrate this, so many of their goals in their Champions League run were about countering at pace, and not about unlocking a bus parked on the edge of its box.
 
Strelok said:
I was trying to point out his importance in that prime Barca. Which @Fortitude has explained and put the whole thing almost perfectly I think. Without Xavi that prime Barca lost their previous complete control of the game and thus became more beatable.
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He was there. That's the problem. He was the captain when they were beat 7-0 over two legs by Bayern, iirc.

Like Gio pointed out, the issue was not really "complete control."

Barcelona have been getting worse and worse over a decade because since the Rossell era, they signed worse and worse players until their squad was no longer great.
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
He was there. That's the problem. He was the captain when they were beat 7-0 over two legs by Bayern, iirc.

Like Gio pointed out, the issue was not really "complete control."

Barcelona have been getting worse and worse over a decade because since the Rossell era, they signed worse and worse players until their squad was no longer great.
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I actually mean without the prime Xavi. We're discussing about the connection between his decline and Barca could no longer look like the prime Barca mate.
 
Fortitude said:
The issue here is that there's not going to be a claim that Xavi's godhood can be established in any other way but by giving him the means by which to perform. I pointed out Matthaus and Robson before because they are the Roy Of The Rovers types where nothing binds them whereas it is nothing prescient to state that if you put Xavi in a midfield of poor passers and movers, you're going to nullify a vast array of his assets out the gate.

Xavi cannot become the system if he is not utilised correctly. Does that mark him down? No, because he is literally the first name down on any hypothetical teamsheet for an all-time possession based xi, bar none. He is the best exponent of retentive football. It is pointless to sweep that under the rug in favour of what he couldn't do - ultimately, that doesn't matter. Give him the tools and watch him go. The only way what you're saying can hold up is if we deem possession football a monolithic system, but we don't do that because the nuances are acknowledged in every style of play and we accept how and what makes them work.

By the way, Modric does not escape scrutiny here. He came to absolute prominence in one of the best midfield trios the game has seen, himself. And Croatia have always played a system intended to get the best out of him first and foremost. It's not as if he's bundled from a defensive, miserly bunch of cloggers at one club or on one platform to a 180 elsewhere; even at Spurs, they played open, attacking football with an emphasis on the very things Modric excels at. Xavi's scope is obviously narrower, but Modric has earned title after title and plaudit after plaudit in sides that enable (and 'unlock') him to use every sinew of his being in the most beneficial way possible for his style of play. Casemiro is not inferior to Busquets, and Kroos is just as good at what he does/did as Iniesta at what he did.

There's really not much in the remainder of the midfielders for either player, but for sure, if you wished to play possession-based football, you take Busquets and Iniesta, just the same as if you want a more eclectic and flexible midfield, you take Kroos and Casemiro. And as I stated before, Senna was the last midfielder to usurp or have more authority on a side that featured Xavi, after that point, it's all him, plus cohorts and I don't think it's dissimilar for Modric with the other 2 seen as great at what they do, in a Modric-influenced midfield.
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"Xavi is the best exponent of retentive football" if you ignore his career before 2008. Again, you're missing the point that Spain/Barca having such an abundance of elite CM's such as Busi, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Cesc, Silva and a certain Messi made Xavi's job orchestrating triangles in the middle so much easier. When the opponent can hurt you through Iniesta, Villa, Silva, Messi of course that allows more freedom for the likes of Xavi to do his thing. Absent those conditions and that golden generation of players (think Class of 92 and triple it), Xavi's output is not extraordinary.

Really? If you think Kroos is just as good as what he does as Iniesta was, then we have a fundamental gap we cannot bridge.
 
bosnian_red said:
Bit wrong. In 2011 he was pushing to go to Chelsea, United in summer 2012 was in for Hazard and Lucas Moura but we got Kagawa instead as Hazard had picked Chelsea over us. Spurs didn't want to let Modrić go after he had his head swayed. He then went to Madrid in 2012 and had a pretty shit first season and most Madrid fans wanted him gone, though he scored the screamer vs United which seemed to ignite his career.
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Modric did not have a shit first season in Madrid. This is a myth. He was poor for the first few months true, but by the end of the season he started playing more and was quality. He was getting serenaded by the end of the season and at the beginning of 13/14. Nobody doubted his quality
 
Suedesi said:
"Xavi is the best exponent of retentive football" if you ignore his career before 2008. Again, you're missing the point that Spain/Barca having such an abundance of elite CM's such as Busi, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Cesc, Silva and a certain Messi made Xavi's job orchestrating triangles in the middle so much easier. When the opponent can hurt you through Iniesta, Villa, Silva, Messi of course that allows more freedom for the likes of Xavi to do his thing. Absent those conditions and that golden generation of players (think Class of 92 and triple it), Xavi's output is not extraordinary.

Really? If you think Kroos is just as good as what he does as Iniesta was, then we have a fundamental gap we cannot bridge.
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I'm going to park the Xavi stuff.

Kroos has established himself as one of the greatest deep-lying passers/playmakers the game has seen, ditto Iniesta as a probing hybrid (position here is important because if you put him as a forward, his output works against him) conduit.

If you want those passes from deep straight through the lines, Kroos at his best is up there with considerably higher rated players, but he will never get that shine.

Iniesta will always be ranked above Kroos, but Kroos was a crucial component in that Real midfield as well as his NT winning a WC.
 
bosnian_red said:
Bit wrong. In 2011 he was pushing to go to Chelsea, United in summer 2012 was in for Hazard and Lucas Moura but we got Kagawa instead as Hazard had picked Chelsea over us. Spurs didn't want to let Modrić go after he had his head swayed. He then went to Madrid in 2012 and had a pretty shit first season and most Madrid fans wanted him gone, though he scored the screamer vs United which seemed to ignite his career.
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Yes - Chelsea wanted to sign him in 2011, and offered up to 40m quid - which at the time was unheard of for a midfielder. Levy said no. In the midst of the following season, Levy tried to get him to sign an extension. Luka refused. Levy then agreed to sell him abroad (RM) for 30m at the end of the season. There's no possible way we could have gotten him.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...t-me-onto-his-yacht-and-said-sign-for-chelsea

In terms of his first season, he'd missed preseason with Spurs and took a few months to get up to speed at Mourinho's Madrid. That Marca poll after 3-months was garbage journalism.
 
If people would say GOAT CM for passing catenaccio that Barcelona and Spain NT displayed. Then i would i agree.

Other than that, Modrić takes the cake.
 
bosnian_red said:
Bit wrong. In 2011 he was pushing to go to Chelsea, United in summer 2012 was in for Hazard and Lucas Moura but we got Kagawa instead as Hazard had picked Chelsea over us. Spurs didn't want to let Modrić go after he had his head swayed. He then went to Madrid in 2012 and had a pretty shit first season and most Madrid fans wanted him gone, though he scored the screamer vs United which seemed to ignite his career.
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Oh I might be wrong then. However I read an article where Rio said we decided not to buy Modric because of Kagawa.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/20786023/modric-transfer-man-utd-kagawa-ferdinand/amp/

"He said, 'Yeah, I think I’m going to go' but he wasn’t sure at the time where he was going.

"I said, 'Listen, you’ve got to come to United.'

"He said, 'Yeah I want to be the first Croatian to play for Man Utd, I want to be that guy, can we make it happen?'

"But it didn’t happen. I spoke to David Gill [CEO] and the manager [Sir Alex Ferguson] at the time had already agreed with Shinji Kagawa I think it was – I think that was the year, I’m sure it was.
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